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Erotic Irony
Caldari
0bsession
Posted - 2007.09.05 04:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Erotic Irony on 05/09/2007 07:06:37
Edited by: Erotic Irony on 05/09/2007 07:02:01
Edited by: Erotic Irony on 05/09/2007 05:00:35
+Intro
When describing Eve to my friends, I tell them its the only game I know where there are many ways to lose but no way to win. Despite this jokey digression there is some truth to it: you can wage war without end in empire and 0.0 but its nigh impossible to substantively gauge success or failure or the means behind it.

Eve is simply too smart for this--we have a sophisticated combat engine that has become more complex and diverse despite the introduction of capitals, fantastic death penalties and finite items driven by an equally complex but nonetheless accessible market. In Eve if you have a genuine commercial plan you can execute it, but more importantly you can see and evaluate the fruits of your labor with data exports, transaction logs and market history.

+The Problem
On the combat side the tools aren't there--we have killmails but very little perspective into big picture. What we need is more parity, industry has witnessed a lesser rennaisance thanks to invention, booster production and rigging not to mention the Rorqual and the mining upgrades but at the same time killmails, four years later, still don't show implants and hardwirings just as ships lost don't display rigs lost. Earlier CCP forwarded skill completion to the character sheet and did away with the mails--perhaps it is also time for a revision of the killmail system?

Without enhanced kill-tracking tools Eve remains open ended but incomplete; what other game can you think of that purports to be competative but has little or no tools to actually empirically measure wins to losses, damage done to damage received? Would you bother trying to "compete" if there was no way of knowing the difference between skill and stupidity? The question isn't: "Do we buff gankers hur hur" but instead how can we create more opportunities for goal oriented and competative play, a point I'd argue is essential in not only keeping long timer players playing but also creating another incentive to persuade pilots to enter the fray and know that their actions will be recognized. If Eve is to be about epic combat between gargantuan alliances and guerrilla groups, it needs an equally robust means to evaluate ship destruction.

+/dance
In the mmo genre, consider WoW's Armory, a site that even in its infancy is enormously useful--not only does it track a wealth of player data but it is also an integrated item database and a comprehensive rule list of the different kinds of aggression. If I want to find out what .4 aggression rules are or the vagaries of sec status I have to navigate to the embarrassingly outdated page here.

CCP take notice: the Eve of 2007 needs something like the armory, either outsource all mails to a CCP run database or don't claim Eve is a serious pvp game. Whether you are Burn Eden grinding 0.0 chokepoints to a halt, Razor & friends contesting BKG or an mercenary outfit, we can all see the benefits of such a killmail system that has no possibility of player interference or editting--no need to evemail ceos when ratters lose their ships and rats gain the final blow, no need to harass alliance mates regularly to post losses and no need to fuss with synching killboards and ships with 5x tractor beams, just the complete facts of ship loss. If you can think of other games with equally robust ladder and stat tracking, speak up--Battlefield 2142 comes to mind as well, it even predicts your future performance based on your current stats.

Erotic Irony
Caldari
0bsession
Posted - 2007.09.05 04:06:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Erotic Irony on 05/09/2007 07:05:31
+IBDS11!1
I can already predict the two major objections--this isn't CS in space. I don't know who thinks of counterstrike as having any bearing or similarity to Eve but this group seems to be worried the gameplay will diminish because of empirical measures and their fun will be somehow reduced. Eve is already many times more brutal than CS anyway, motherships and low sec camps in general, the possibility of corp theft, contract scams, the list goes on. The CS lobby are either alarmists or have never pvp'd before to think the things they do, I think quite the opposite will happen though: I have more fun the more I know about engagements and those involved, like the market history it creates benchmarks to meet and reach for.

The second group worries a global, public killboard reveals too much intel to the enemy alliance. Again we have an exaggeration--given the abundance of spies, untraceable alts and ip-tracking suggests that vulnerability of information will always exist. A public killboard will represent a small step in measuring the cost of vengeance. I think the intel lobby confuses another problem for the advantages of a public killboard, thinking that because I have some idea where the fighting is happening I can tip the balance, while generally true f5ing boards don't win battles and cynojammers are already marked on the overview.

But a number of tools like Serenity's Outpost alert and Elissen's excellent jump planner have already become defacto tools for surviving Eve--the jump planner has even migrated to the client it was so ubiquitous. So it is with kill mail system. If this lobby is right then we should do away with ships destroyed filters and perhaps the map as a whole as well because it could be of use to our enemies too.

The point is information itself isn't partisan to any one alliance or corp, and much like the oft used map, more robust kill tracking makes for a more sophisticated, accessible and internally consistant game.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.09.05 04:06:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Erotic Irony
+IBDS11!1
Not for long though.

skilz
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.09.05 06:44:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Erotic Irony
+IBDS11!1
Not for long though.


DS you are such a FW

Novemb3r
Minmatar
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.05 06:48:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: skilz
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Erotic Irony
+IBDS11!1
Not for long though.


DS you are such a FW


IDK, my BFF Jill?

Arekhon
Minmatar
Eternal Perseverance
B A N E
Posted - 2007.09.05 07:07:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Novemb3r

IDK, my BFF Jill?


Laughing

to the OP..../SIGNED

great idea, I would really like to see how uber the elite pvp'ers really are should something like this be implimented. Would be interesting to see for the alliances aswell. Checks and balances like this would really suck the wind out of some of the "smack" sails too.



Kuolematon
Caldari
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2007.09.05 07:51:00 - [7]
 

IBDS Lite .. damn failed.

Haha!

Gilbert Drillerson
Minmatar
Varorra
Knights of the Rising Phoenix
Posted - 2007.09.05 08:08:00 - [8]
 

Eve isnt about killmails, it is abuot a lot of other things really.... I wˇuld be disapointed if CCP spent one second on this... Lag is a MUCH MUCH bigger issue, so is new stuff like ships, balance changes and making mondane stuff in eve easyer.

As it is right now, we have a number of player created killboard applications, those are fun and good, why not just stay with that.

Callthetruth
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.05 08:36:00 - [9]
 

signed

DTee
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.09.05 08:50:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: DTee on 05/09/2007 08:58:55
I agree with the OP. I would think something similar to a ranking system from battlefield. Where there are awards corresponding to your play style. afterall this game is about armies of players with loose rankings of their own. The players who strive to excel in pvp, should be rewarded accordingly


edit: I posted before i read the battlefield 2142 part.

Raem Civrie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.09.05 09:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Raem Civrie on 05/09/2007 09:04:07
Outsourcing killmails to a separate database is something CCP really needs to do, because it would open up for so much more than simple corp killmail tracking.

Preferably, I'd like to see these killmails accessible by killboards like Griefwatch, i.e. an alliance might itself have an API key it would register to allow external killboards access to the information. The benefit, of course, is an automatic killboard that might have the option of more extensive analysis of killmails, trends and all that.

That said, corps and alliances need their own API key... please let this be the next step. Export of trade fluctuations in separate outposts, or overall trade volume of all players in the corp/alliance would be enormously beneficial to certain people. Oh hey, look, that stockmarket we always wanted?

EVE Data export is the future of the internal economy, imho.

Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson
Eve isnt about killmails, it is abuot a lot of other things really.... I wˇuld be disapointed if CCP spent one second on this... Lag is a MUCH MUCH bigger issue, so is new stuff like ships, balance changes and making mondane stuff in eve easyer.

As it is right now, we have a number of player created killboard applications, those are fun and good, why not just stay with that.


Not all of CCP is capable of fixing bugs and network code. You don't mine with a dreadnought sir, or at least you shouldn't. Lag is already being addressed, and something like this shouldn't have to impact bughunting or network reworks.

Also, killmails in themselves don't matter that much, but the benefits of accurate and secure tracking for individual entities can be great.

Taurequis
Gallente
Waylander 01
Posted - 2007.09.05 09:36:00 - [12]
 

Personally,

I think this obsession with killmails kills the spirit and true beauty of eve.

Scrap them and let pilots be known for their performance infront of their peers. Not some internet e-peen competition of little relation to actual skill.

Taur

Lochmar Fiendhiem
Caldari
International Multi-Player Consortium
Posted - 2007.09.05 10:24:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Erotic Irony
I have more fun the more I know about engagements and those involved, like the market history it creates benchmarks to meet and reach for.
[/b]


I agree with the op 100% and the above quote as well as epic battles do affect the market greatly and actually being able to see this without flipping through a dozen kills or wonder, "hey if we've lost 8 ravens and 14 were on the market and now they're gone, then where did THOSE ravens go."

also it would be nice to be able to compare all of this side + allies versus all of that side + allies. Would put a swift end to "we killed a million of they're ships and only lost 2". While other groups are saying, "you didn't include your support fleet that was all from XYZ alliance and they we're all smoked by us" etc etc.


make it all public, able to sort via corp alliance or player, pick something simple and have the server send the mails to this other client that can be linked to from well, anywhere really.

could also remove some of the strain from the mailserver ingame, thus reducing lag slightly perhaps.

Hans Roaming
Gallente
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.05 10:52:00 - [14]
 

As some like to track the market some of us like to track the pvp element of the game and data mine for information.

For large scale wars and so forth this would add depth and character to EVE as whole as well as being a true objective view of kills and losses.

Morris Falter
Caldari
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2007.09.05 11:04:00 - [15]
 

Wrong forum to bring this up in, I think, but hey.. its an interesting topic, so..

Month long RSS feed per player of kills/losses, based on killboard API key, similar to the current one, but only giving out kill data, leaving the more sensitive character/corp info behind another key. What you do with them while the kill data is up to you.

Killboards are already sophisticated enough to retrieve data from an RSS feed - this automated retrieval and display of information is already going on, so I don't think it would be any big problem. The retrieval would be a similar data load to making the killmail inside the game already, and would be secure based on characters putting their killboard API key.

JeanPaul Sartre
Amarr
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
Posted - 2007.09.05 12:37:00 - [16]
 

Please, if Eve implements a method of keeping track of each and every kill in infinite detail then you go down the road to Guildwars style titles, ebay monkeys and a myriad of other annoying things that wreck games. Eve is refreshing in that there IS ambiguity.

Now a much better idea would be to vastly improve on the logging procedures and implementation so that 3rd party apps could be designed to exploit logs. I have in mind something like EQ2 combat parsers etc. like ACT


To OP, I disagree.

Heikki
Gallente
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2007.09.05 16:08:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Erotic Irony
tools to actually empirically measure wins to losses
We do have such tools for goal oriented. Like the POSes you can maintain and defend; systems that bear your name, or outposts that you've conquered.

Current situation is more similar to RL wars than your proposed. You can use your own accurate systems (private mandatory killboards) to keep reasonable track of how you are doing, and yet try for propaganda points via modified systems (non-zero point killboards, delayed losses etc).

Or in other words; the current systems gives us more ways to compete

-Lasse
who would still prefer API key for recent killmails

Andargor theWise
Gallente
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2007.09.05 17:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: JeanPaul Sartre
Please, if Eve implements a method of keeping track of each and every kill in infinite detail then you go down the road to Guildwars style titles, ebay monkeys and a myriad of other annoying things that wreck games. Eve is refreshing in that there IS ambiguity.



I had my mind set when I was reading the thread, when I saw this. And I thought "how true".

What would Eve be without all the arguments and posturing? It makes the real world interesting, why not a game?


Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2007.09.05 18:08:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Andargor theWise
Originally by: JeanPaul Sartre
Please, if Eve implements a method of keeping track of each and every kill in infinite detail then you go down the road to Guildwars style titles, ebay monkeys and a myriad of other annoying things that wreck games. Eve is refreshing in that there IS ambiguity.



I had my mind set when I was reading the thread, when I saw this. And I thought "how true".

What would Eve be without all the arguments and posturing? It makes the real world interesting, why not a game?



I like the fog of war.

Fader Bane
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.09.05 18:18:00 - [20]
 

while i do not enjoy entertaining the idea of having a stats pages similar to the recent battlefield games i would like to see a system without killmails. they don't achieve their goal very well both in efficiency and in structure. plus for all i we know they may be causing some of the lag in big battles.

Biosman
Caldari
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.09.05 19:01:00 - [21]
 

Absolutely signed,
CCP should integrate an official killboard here at eve-o forum
or at the very least,update the kill mails to include everything,
including the implants lost.

Morris Falter
Caldari
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2007.09.05 19:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: JeanPaul Sartre
Please, if Eve implements a method of keeping track of each and every kill in infinite detail then you go down the road to Guildwars style titles, ebay monkeys and a myriad of other annoying things that wreck games. Eve is refreshing in that there IS ambiguity.

Now a much better idea would be to vastly improve on the logging procedures and implementation so that 3rd party apps could be designed to exploit logs. I have in mind something like EQ2 combat parsers etc. like ACT


To OP, I disagree.


Well said.

Sandslinger
Gallente
NorCorp Enterprise
No Holes Barred
Posted - 2007.09.05 20:19:00 - [23]
 

Completelly totally agree

but for a more reasons than what the OP lists.

I would like to see a killboard directly linked to EVE. which would allow bounties and mercenary contracts to actually mean something.

Everything in EVE has a base value in the database if a more detailed KB was produced by EVE itself then it should open up the possibility of a real bounty system.

At the moment the bounty system is a joke, it's like ivin away free isk to the person you put a bounty on, once their bounty exceeds the value of their clone they can pod themselves for the money using a alt or whatever.

I want contracts where I say I will pay 300 Million to person/corp/alliance X once they have caused Y amount of damage to person/corp/alliance Z.

The Killboard could track the base isk value of damage caused (not by any means relative to market value most of the time but thats irrelevant all you need is a measure to go by)

The ability to do this would open up bounty hunting and mercenary contracts as something really fun and worthwhile in EVE.

To the people sayin e-bay kill *****s etc, sorry a ingame system miht make it easier for the Existin kill *****s to go overboard but meh, It adds more for the rest of us to deny yourself a potentially great game function because some people might take it too seriously is silly talk.

Chirinako
Caldari
The Junkyard Dogs
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.05 20:31:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson
Eve isnt about killmails, it is abuot a lot of other things really.... I wˇuld be disapointed if CCP spent one second on this... Lag is a MUCH MUCH bigger issue, so is new stuff like ships, balance changes and making mondane stuff in eve easyer.

As it is right now, we have a number of player created killboard applications, those are fun and good, why not just stay with that.


^what he said. Nothing else to add really.

Masu'di
Minmatar
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2007.09.05 20:44:00 - [25]
 

i don't personally agree with this for a number of reasons.

a) i like to keep my killboard private, yep sure, people can spy, but at least they have to make some effort.
b) i like the fact that information is incomplete in eve, it makes it a more unpredictable and exciting place.

from an immersive point of view, i find it odd that concorde would make a publicy available list of all kills in eve, due to a total disregard of privacy. then again i find it a little odd that they send you killmails. however, lossmails for insurance purposes i can understand.

NATMav
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.09.05 20:52:00 - [26]
 

I think in this day of Titans and massive fleet battles, it's time the killmail system was overhauled. CCP can say what they like, but the process of sending out two copies of every killmail has got to cause at least a slight amount of load on the servers. When we're talking about hundreds of ships popping at the same instant, it's probably alot bigger problem.

All of the kill information is already generated and stored by CCP, why spend extra processing power mailing it to both parties when you can just dump it to a seperate database and cut out the middleman?

Even if it isn't an "official" CCP killboard, just having the data available to the public to do what they like would be a huge improvement over the current system of copy > paste to your killboard, copy > paste to everyone else not in your alliance, ad nauseum.

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2007.09.05 21:56:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hans Roaming
As some like to track the market some of us like to track the pvp element of the game and data mine for information.

For large scale wars and so forth this would add depth and character to EVE as whole as well as being a true objective view of kills and losses.


EvE is not supposed to be clear cut and easy. Carebears like you should go back to WoW tbfh. Razz

Ariso
Amarr
Quantum Industries
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.05 22:47:00 - [28]
 

I think CCP should also have a look at the new Steam Beta and take some tips from that for a good in game browser, granted the steam one is for the community stuff but would be awesome to access eve forums properly ingame etc, and without them needing to look like a throwback from the internet of the early 90's. And yes WOW's armory is pretty impressive, friend at work who plays WOW showed it to me, ofc it wouldnt work in eve showing what people have fitted lol. But lots of possibilities, although i do remember promises like a year or more ago saying that the site and forums where gonna have a nice overhaul... WinkRolling Eyes

Rhaven
Amarr
Quiet.Storm
Posted - 2007.09.05 22:54:00 - [29]
 

HEH most played this game cause it was FUN not to I am better then you, ect, ect. Killmails are what they are and should stay what they are as a volentary If you wan tto post or not and if your corp/alliance even wants to have a killoard. I was in AXE before it had a kill board and the reason taht I heard taht Steelrat didn't want one was so ppl dont start fighting about who is better then who ect within the corp ect. I have a kill board for my corp cause I like to track where ppl are and suchwhen I am not on. I also tell them post your loses along with your kills. The one thing that I do is is I have only one or tow that thank, Oh I got more kills then you ect ect ect. when sure ok you have more kills or are on more kill mails. In eve there are alot of factors on successful raids ect one being the cov op pilot that almost never gets in on the kill mails or the dictor that drops a bubble and is not set up for killing anything. Tracking stats is a lot more then a kill mail or ranking ppl above others because of kill mails. The Team taht makes it so those ppl can get the kill mails is more of what eve is about. You can do solo and get a bunch of kill mails you can go and blab and get a bunch of kill mails does it make you anybetter then the other either way? My feelings is no as long as you are having fun is all that matters and if I can do something to make EVE more fun for the ppl in my corp great and for those that dont want to pvp that mine or mission run fine that is what makes eve fun for them and others. Last I know CCP's data base could tell you how many of what is made in production ect and I am sure that it can tell a whole lot more, but Why to make ppls E-peen greater to make the game more unfun for some and more fun for others. There are so many different things in EVE to do that a stats page would be huge just for ppl to see how they rank against other pvper other industrealist ect. As much as ppl say carebears go away if you think about it if it wasn't for carebears you wouldn't have a ship in EVE. If you didn't have pvp the industrealist wouldn't have ppl to sell ships to. It is a circle taht continues round and roundand part of the charm of eve to most ppl.

Johnny ReeRee
Caldari
The ReeRee Brigade
Posted - 2007.09.05 23:03:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Raem Civrie

Outsourcing killmails to a separate database is something CCP really needs to do, because it would open up for so much more than simple corp killmail tracking.

Preferably, I'd like to see these killmails accessible by killboards like Griefwatch, i.e. an alliance might itself have an API key it would register to allow external killboards access to the information. The benefit, of course, is an automatic killboard that might have the option of more extensive analysis of killmails, trends and all that.

That said, corps and alliances need their own API key... please let this be the next step. Export of trade fluctuations in separate outposts, or overall trade volume of all players in the corp/alliance would be enormously beneficial to certain people. Oh hey, look, that stockmarket we always wanted?

EVE Data export is the future of the internal economy, imho.

Not all of CCP is capable of fixing bugs and network code. You don't mine with a dreadnought sir, or at least you shouldn't. Lag is already being addressed, and something like this shouldn't have to impact bughunting or network reworks.

Also, killmails in themselves don't matter that much, but the benefits of accurate and secure tracking for individual entities can be great.


This guy is correct -- this is a goldmine of data that enriches the game in a zillion ways. It's crazy for CCP not to figure out a way to make this happen. It's not technically difficult, it doesn't affect the game in any way, and it enhances the user experience.


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