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el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:33:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: el toppolino on 03/09/2007 12:37:21
Edited by: el toppolino on 03/09/2007 12:33:47
it seems to me pvp in small to medium gangs are mostly now based on speed and agility setups. i always thx the eve god when we have a huggin or rapier near.

whoring a lot of killboard reveals the excessive use of minmatar ships (vaga sabre etc) also. speaking to a friend in a pvp alliance i hear the whole alliance prefers poly-rigs .

ok they do less damage than other setups but comparing the races what can really counter speed expect the minmatar recons ? i would say nothing. missles dont hit ehm, rails dont, maxed out drones cant follow. what is more ccp encourge the speed-gamestyle by adding more speed to the deimos. the new NOS-nerf seems to strengthen this as well.

so what can be done ? i would be happy if the others races get equal gear to counter the speed with speed or with web-bonus-thingy. adjust maybe web range to disruptor range and adjust the huggin bonus to the arazu/lachesis bonus (range whise).

otherwhise we ll all fly minmatar soon :)b

"but sir my flycatcher flys 3000 and behaves like a brick" - "dude why the hell didnt you train sabre"


toppo

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:38:00 - [2]
 

do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?

That there is the 'balance'. This is their tank.

If you want to get the web increased so you can't use speed, you better give minnie the same tank as amarr, not the same as a wet paper towel

Hastrabull
Caldari
Rave Technologies Inc.
C0VEN
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:41:00 - [3]
 

well... im training minnie ships for last 2 months on my alt ;)

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:42:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Spurty
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?


Nevva, they may be called missiles, but I think of them as hittiles.

That is why the Khanid changes are so cool with a capital k. Missile boats with lowslots.

lin ta
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:43:00 - [5]
 

you must be joking. all except the maelstrom have split weapons systems that require much more training than other races to keep up. missiles, drones, turrets, plus shield and armor. the training to be a decent mater pilot is long. the suppose strength of matar, speed, is a few km more than other ships. with the days of snakes and things this is nothing. all other races have been buffed beyond matar, both directly and indirectly. it amazes me that the matars don't complain more but when you put this bull**** out something needs to be said. leave us the 1 or 2 ships that people still use.

el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:43:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Spurty
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?

That there is the 'balance'. This is their tank.

If you want to get the web increased so you can't use speed, you better give minnie the same tank as amarr, not the same as a wet paper towel


i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)

Barthezz
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:46:00 - [7]
 

If your in a gang of ships with an actual tank then it shouldnt be too hard to kill a speed-setup gang as long as you can tank their damage output that is. Or at least long enough.

Spread out, 5-10km away from each other (6-7km if you use remote reps), they cant really orbit you at 10-15km then as that will get them into web range of someone in your gang.

I'm guessing your running into 0utbreak too in v7d Laughing

Only a few (3 I think) pilots in our corp can fly speed setups so we usually visit you guys in mixed gangs, but you never want to fight that either Crying or Very sad

Yea our gangs usually reasonably sized, but I swear thats because when someone mentions v7d and/or fury corp, suddenly everyone in the corp wants to come Laughing

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:55:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)


well thats a different question :p

I recommend a Myrmidon with x2 faction webs (Certainly killed my first vaga fast!)

After that, any reckon with a web range greater than 14km

Thats 1 ship and 1 class.

It has to stop though, the homogenizing of ships.

We shouldn't be seeing nano-gallente ships, they already have x2 the firepower of all the other races with their ships getting lovely drone enhancements.

I fly all races, so I don't really care about which one gets the most love, I'll just fly that until the next patch changes things, I'm just trying to put my point across neatly, not wave the 'Vaga-love' flag

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.09.03 12:58:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/09/2007 12:58:54
Originally by: el toppolino

i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)


Its the minmatar equivalent of the dominix. Dominix is even harder to kill with a generic setup than a Vaga is.

And how many ships like the Vagabond does minmatar have? Oh thats right... 0. Vaga is the only one.

el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.03 13:01:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: el toppolino on 03/09/2007 13:02:05
Originally by: Barthezz
If your in a gang of ships with an actual tank then it shouldnt be too hard to kill a speed-setup gang as long as you can tank their damage output that is. Or at least long enough.

Spread out, 5-10km away from each other (6-7km if you use remote reps), they cant really orbit you at 10-15km then as that will get them into web range of someone in your gang.

I'm guessing your running into 0utbreak too in v7d Laughing

Only a few (3 I think) pilots in our corp can fly speed setups so we usually visit you guys in mixed gangs, but you never want to fight that either Crying or Very sad

Yea our gangs usually reasonably sized, but I swear thats because when someone mentions v7d and/or fury corp, suddenly everyone in the corp wants to come Laughing


hehe well too many IAC pilots died already, often to a speed ishtar which needs an insane amount of iskys to be real fast :)

yeah the outbreak killboard defo tells this story barthezz :)

but back to the topic. you poooooooor minmatar i hear here. since the missles changes to amarr i think there is no race that doesnt need to train multiple weapon platforms to be good.

as eve is best played when you focus you skill training on fewest aims possible only the idiots will train all races (or those 60 mill SP ppl that dunno what to train now).

so basically i see no difference between a caldari dictor and a minmatar dictor. they do same job (at least should) but the speed and agility compared is a joke. even the eris is 2k faster than the caldari ****. comparing a nano-ishtar and a vaga: yes the ishtar can be fast and will have same ****ty tank but you ll invest ****loads of isk to get close.

the deimos speed change: isnt it a change into the direction i am speaking of ?

damn i have to clean my ishtar now myself..the minmatar slaves died to amarr missles

there is only one dictor in eve: sabre

Blind Man
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2007.09.03 13:12:00 - [11]
 

so train minmatar then lol

Barthezz
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.09.03 13:23:00 - [12]
 

Tbh 0utbreak is just bloody annoying with their speed setups, they dont fly anything else (ok not totally true, they did drop 11 carriers and 2 ms on 2 of IAC's freighters a while back).

I think faction webs are the way to get most speed setup pilots, that and a bit of speed yourself. Overload your webs and they shouldnt last too long.

Sadly enough officer webs only give 75% reduction which isnt enough to kill most vagabonds.

Perhaps they should add a fall-off range to webs and make them slow down targets faster. If they do then I do think Minmatar needs a bit of help in the tanking department. At least some ships (not all, the BS tanks can be pretty good already, but I feel the BC and smaller need a bit of help).

A 10km web with a 5km fall-off would be nice (perhaps more?). Means a fleeting web would still web 45% at 15km range, while not as effective you could have several people kill a vaga's speed enough to get into range more.

el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.03 13:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Barthezz
Tbh 0utbreak is just bloody annoying with their speed setups, they dont fly anything else (ok not totally true, they did drop 11 carriers and 2 ms on 2 of IAC's freighters a while back).

I think faction webs are the way to get most speed setup pilots, that and a bit of speed yourself. Overload your webs and they shouldnt last too long.

Sadly enough officer webs only give 75% reduction which isnt enough to kill most vagabonds.

Perhaps they should add a fall-off range to webs and make them slow down targets faster. If they do then I do think Minmatar needs a bit of help in the tanking department. At least some ships (not all, the BS tanks can be pretty good already, but I feel the BC and smaller need a bit of help).

A 10km web with a 5km fall-off would be nice (perhaps more?). Means a fleeting web would still web 45% at 15km range, while not as effective you could have several people kill a vaga's speed enough to get into range more.


well i use faction web on a ship and it works out well...but the cost is ouchy. i am also against the basic tendence of nerving everything but in my 3 years of playing eve never did i have the feeling like now that something is wrong speaking of the speed ships. i wouldnt say a word if my missles or railguns or drones would have the slightest chance of a hit against those speed ships :P but there is no chance (and yes my drones rails and missles are very good trained :))

/me wonders if there will be a skill called: ANTI-DRONE-STUCK-TOGETHER. on the other hand it wouldnt make a diff as they are to slow anyways :P

Essque
tr0pa de elite
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.09.03 14:33:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: el toppolino
Originally by: Spurty
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?

That there is the 'balance'. This is their tank.

If you want to get the web increased so you can't use speed, you better give minnie the same tank as amarr, not the same as a wet paper towel


i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)


Nano Ishtar.

Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.03 14:42:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 03/09/2007 14:44:00
Originally by: Essque


Nano Ishtar.


This ^^

More dps than any minie HAC.

Oh and btw a well set up raven can kill an unwary Vaga Laughing...I wont name names, but a Nossing Raven with faction web and MWD, pwned a Vaga from my corp

el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.03 14:56:00 - [16]
 

nano ishtar is hwat i fly but if you are serious you would also mention nano ishtar costs a fortune. comaping maybe t2 fitted ishtar and vaga the speed difference will be a joke

Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
Posted - 2007.09.03 14:59:00 - [17]
 

Vagabonds are the honda civics of eve!

Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:07:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: el toppolino
nano ishtar is hwat i fly but if you are serious you would also mention nano ishtar costs a fortune. comaping maybe t2 fitted ishtar and vaga the speed difference will be a joke


So there IS a ship better at roaming gangs, and it's not Minmatar. So your original complaint is bit odd now since you already fly the Isthar Razz

The cost is irrelevant, as no amount of isk will give my vaga the same dps as an Ishtar.

If you put a 6km/s Vaga up against a 3km/s Ishtar, the Vaga's speed would allow it to...
run away Laughing

Speed is not everything, it just allows roaming gangs to take greater risks, and have a chance to escape when the blob arrives.

Radgun
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:08:00 - [19]
 

reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago

nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar

giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it WinkRazz

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:16:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.

Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.

The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No über megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no über drake, myrmidon or no über anything but these ships.

We are not complaining, we are not amar.

Jack Target
Astral Adventure
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:17:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jack Target on 03/09/2007 15:17:27


I will be very annoyed if Minmatar are nerfed, because it's taking me ages to skill for the ships. I want to be able to run away if I need to.

In addition, Gallente are best for inflicting damage (Blasterthron, Dominix).

Therefore, if Minamtar are nerfed I would expect Gallente to be nerfed as well to conserve the game's balance - it's only fair.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:19:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 03/09/2007 15:20:25
I said it another thread. Cut the mwd speed boost by 50% across the board. Solves the problem with extremely high speeds without taking away from the Minmatar their one advantage over other races (since they will still be the fastest), while at the same time making afterburners viable again. Also, makes it easier for Caldari to use their range advantage effectively (thus hopefully ending the forum whining of angry Caldari pilots).

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Radgun
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago

nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar

giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it WinkRazz
How can you say with a straight face, 'nothing has changed' when speeds have been creeping up and creeping up, to the point where, the counters to small fast ships (light drones, light missiles) can't even keep up with cruiser-sized platforms (and wouldn't do diddly even if they could)...?

We're getting back to the kind of speeds we saw in the old Dual MWD days, and the game simply isn't balanced for things travelling that fast...

Put it this way, could you imagine the state of things if slave implants gave a repair amount bonus, and had no stacking penalty against aux nano-pumps? - Actually even then, combined with full Centus X-type tank, you still wouldn't be afforded the same level of security and safety as some of these speed setups have.

Leroy Payne
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 03/09/2007 15:20:25
I said it another thread. Cut the mwd speed boost by 50% across the board. Solves the problem with extremely high speeds without taking away from the Minmatar their one advantage over other races (since they will still be the fastest), while at the same time making afterburners viable again. Also, makes it easier for Caldari to use their range advantage effectively (thus hopefully ending the forum whining of angry Caldari pilots).


I think that's like taking off a veruca with a machete, inelegant and over the top, and likely to have unintended repercussions.

How about nerfing the one thing that actually causes the problems - snakes. It's just typical of the way the game is headed that isk+ a mediochre level of skill = total win these days.

motherhsips in low-sec, full pirate implant sets, and faction webbers needed to fight speed fits. Being an elite pvper has less to do these days with any actual skills and more to do with how much money you can throw at a ship fitting, and in response people with less money have no choice but to blob up to achieve success, because the solopwnmobiles that were never supposed to exist are being allowed into the game left right and centre.

Please CCP take note and try to solve this difficult problem.

JoeSomebody
No Trademark
Notoriety Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:41:00 - [25]
 

i don't see a problem with any minnie ships other than vaga, so... fix vaga

Torlin Valric
Minmatar
Minmatar Mining Division
Posted - 2007.09.03 15:54:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: JoeSomebody
i don't see a problem with any minnie ships other than vaga, so... fix vaga


I don't see a problem with the vaga, so leave it as it is

Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2007.09.03 16:01:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2007 16:02:44
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Radgun
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago

nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar

giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it WinkRazz
How can you say with a straight face, 'nothing has changed' when speeds have been creeping up and creeping up, to the point where, the counters to small fast ships (light drones, light missiles) can't even keep up with cruiser-sized platforms (and wouldn't do diddly even if they could)...?

We're getting back to the kind of speeds we saw in the old Dual MWD days, and the game simply isn't balanced for things travelling that fast...

Put it this way, could you imagine the state of things if slave implants gave a repair amount bonus, and had no stacking penalty against aux nano-pumps? - Actually even then, combined with full Centus X-type tank, you still wouldn't be afforded the same level of security and safety as some of these speed setups have.



Everything is increasing not just speed. Theres more stronger tanking ships through their bonuses, through rigs and hardwirings just like speed. If your saying speed has increased to much then why not say tanking and damage has increased to much? (to those who can afford the items)

Sure speed offers some safety, so does 1000+ dps tanks especially since the nos nerf as all you can do is wait for it to cap out/run out of cap charges or bring more damage to break through the tank. WCS were nerfed to lower safety, increasing the skill it takes to fly speed ships, its not just set orbit and hit mwd, there is actually some skill to flying them, more skill than just sitting on stations/gates, activating hardeners and reps and shooting who your told to.

Speed was addressed with the Istab and mwd speed rig (name escapes me) nerfs, theres enough counters to speed without nerfing yet another tactic because people just want tank + DPS to matter.

Leroy Payne
Posted - 2007.09.03 16:06:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.

Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.

The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No über megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no über drake, myrmidon or no über anything but these ships.

We are not complaining, we are not amar.


Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish.

Sabre = Awesome
Wolf/Stiletto = Pretty damn good within their classes
Stabber/Rupture = both great cruisers
Huginn = Awesome
Hurricane = Awesome
Sleipnir = Total Win
Typhoon/Tempest/Maelstrom = Great utility & drone bS/Great Sniper/Great gunnery BS

Minnie have got plenty of great ships. So it appears you are whining just like a dirty Amarrian. Suck it up and love the great race with all these great ships is comes with.

Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.03 16:07:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: JoeSomebody
i don't see a problem with any minnie ships other than vaga, so... fix vaga


Yeah fix Vaga!! It needs another turret slot and a drone bay big enough to carry 5 large Twisted Evil
Oh and an extra mid slot would come in handy too please CCP

Leroy Payne
Posted - 2007.09.03 16:11:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2007 16:02:44
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Radgun
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago

nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar

giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it WinkRazz
How can you say with a straight face, 'nothing has changed' when speeds have been creeping up and creeping up, to the point where, the counters to small fast ships (light drones, light missiles) can't even keep up with cruiser-sized platforms (and wouldn't do diddly even if they could)...?

We're getting back to the kind of speeds we saw in the old Dual MWD days, and the game simply isn't balanced for things travelling that fast...

Put it this way, could you imagine the state of things if slave implants gave a repair amount bonus, and had no stacking penalty against aux nano-pumps? - Actually even then, combined with full Centus X-type tank, you still wouldn't be afforded the same level of security and safety as some of these speed setups have.



Everything is increasing not just speed. Theres more stronger tanking ships through their bonuses, through rigs and hardwirings just like speed. If your saying speed has increased to much then why not say tanking and damage has increased to much? (to those who can afford the items)

Sure speed offers some safety, so does 1000+ dps tanks especially since the nos nerf as all you can do is wait for it to cap out/run out of cap charges or bring more damage to break through the tank. WCS were nerfed to lower safety, increasing the skill it takes to fly speed ships, its not just set orbit and hit mwd, there is actually some skill to flying them, more skill than just sitting on stations/gates, activating hardeners and reps and shooting who your told to.

Speed was addressed with the Istab and mwd speed rig (name escapes me) nerfs, theres enough counters to speed without nerfing yet another tactic because people just want tank + DPS to matter.


Look your comparison is not a good one.

Tanking has gone up yes - but so has DPS.

Speed has gone up, but are missiles and drones any faster? No. Is the tracking on any better? no (except lasers and this is only to bring them back into line with other guns)Affordable scramble range has gone up, but web range hasn't. All these things serve the speedfit while making its counters more and more useless.

Speed has gone up, but the natural counters to it or ways to kill it have not gone up in strength at all.

As opposed to tanking going up a lot, but you might find youself facing t2 ammo and 5 fighter drones these days.


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