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Sazkyen
Posted - 2007.08.26 14:54:00 - [1]
 

I mean come on. With 6M+ in gunnery, focused on lasers and certain missions are close to undoable. I'm not talking about tanking issues, I'm talking about damage. It takes forever to do heavy EM/Thermal resist missions. A new damage type really should be introduced for lasers. I did L3 missions with an Amarr alt in an Abaddon (to get to L4s quick). Guess what, I'm not speeding through them. It took me like one hour to do Angel Extravaganza L3. I mean LOL. With focused training and eight lasers that's the max? I of course used medium pulses (multifreq/standard/radio constantly changing as gaining on them), so the issue is not that I've tried to use large ones and couldn't track them or something. The damage potential is there but EM/Thermal simply won't cut it (literally Laughing). Lasers should do EM/Kinetic/Thermal in my opinion.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:01:00 - [2]
 

Yes, because focused light really does carry a lot of kinetic energy...


You could try flying one of the Amarr drone ships, or (after Tuesday) one of the Khanid missile ships. Or you could fit something other than lasers. Or you could train Caldari...


Seriously though, Amarr do need something to boost their lasers a little. But I don't think Kinetic is the answer (EVE already makes very little sense, physics wise). I'm all for the much suggested rebalancing of EM and Thermal- more Therm, less EM. Therm is a very respectable damage type (arguably the best multi purpose one).

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:02:00 - [3]
 

Caldari drones ? Razz

Doctor Fruitloop
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:04:00 - [4]
 

Eve physics made my head hurt.
Methinks the gods of eve got drunk then threw Newton and Hawkings physics into a sun and let the rest of the world get on with it.
Realy why do ships have a termial velocity with engines firing in a non friction enviroment?
Is Eve not in actual fact - a navy simulator with space mods slapped on?

Lowanaera
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:07:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Lowanaera on 26/08/2007 15:12:08
Originally by: Doctor Fruitloop

Is Eve not in actual fact - a navy simulator with space mods slapped on?


It's been acknowledged from the beginning that Eve is much closer to a sub sim than a space sim, but the goal is fun and playability, not realism.


In regards to the OP: just turn those missions down. A properly fitted Abaddon blows through Blood/Sansha/Drone L4s faster than a Raven could ever hope to, the trade-off being having to decline Angel/Gurista ones unless you want to waste hours, but those missions are assigned infrequently by Amarr agents.

ArmagedonLT
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:09:00 - [6]
 

its great being amarr, aint it?

Azirapheal
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:29:00 - [7]
 

if you look at it from a "roleplaying" perspective there is probably more logic behind giving lasers explosive dmg, sinced the focused blast of million degree heat would vapourise armor into fine, easilly ingiteable particles...

im all for making amarr therm/explosive XD

nah its all fine tbh, id rather see EANM's NOT increase em resistance just as id rather see invulns not increase the highest base shield stat.

Azi

Bumbum George
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:34:00 - [8]
 

gallente really need explosive and em damage!!

so here it is, I am asking for it, so GIMMEEEEHHHH!!!


come on, the fact that amarr aren't the best pve race to fly could have been easily known to you by the time you trained 6 mil in gunnery for lasers!

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:34:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Patch86
Seriously though, Amarr do need something to boost their lasers a little. But I don't think Kinetic is the answer (EVE already makes very little sense, physics wise). I'm all for the much suggested rebalancing of EM and Thermal- more Therm, less EM. Therm is a very respectable damage type (arguably the best multi purpose one).

Unfortunately Amarr, for consistency purposes, are stuck with EM damage because it's their racial damage type. Minmattar = explosive, Amarr = EM, Caldari = Kinetic, Thermal = Gallente.
Now, a nice damage boost to lasers might make them a bit more fearsome.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:35:00 - [10]
 

The one thing I can see, is that changing amarr crystals to anything other than EM/Therm will make amarr as bad for doing sansha/blood missions as minmatar are.

Possibly Em/Kin?
I would say Kin/Therm, but everyone already does that Confused

Bodhisattvas
0utbreak
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:04:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sazkyen
I mean come on. With 6M+ in gunnery, focused on lasers and certain missions are close to undoable. I'm not talking about tanking issues, I'm talking about damage. It takes forever to do heavy EM/Thermal resist missions. A new damage type really should be introduced for lasers. I did L3 missions with an Amarr alt in an Abaddon (to get to L4s quick). Guess what, I'm not speeding through them. It took me like one hour to do Angel Extravaganza L3. I mean LOL. With focused training and eight lasers that's the max? I of course used medium pulses (multifreq/standard/radio constantly changing as gaining on them), so the issue is not that I've tried to use large ones and couldn't track them or something. The damage potential is there but EM/Thermal simply won't cut it (literally Laughing). Lasers should do EM/Kinetic/Thermal in my opinion.


Missiles come in all flavours....... your just gonna have to get a lil closer thats all Shocked

Krav
Order of the Redeeming Light
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:25:00 - [12]
 

The solution to the PVE problem is not changing lasers as that will imbalance PVP.

The solution is simple--reduce secondary resists on all npcs so dmg is not almost entirely muted if you can't shoot the one type they're actually vulnerable to.

Take guristas as an example. I'm fine leaving the kinetic hole as-is. But what needs to happen is that EM/therm/explosive resists need to get lowered closer to (but still higher than) the kinetic resists. Suddenly, laser dmg can actually hurt an npc again.

Krav

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:57:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 26/08/2007 17:24:53
Originally by: Patch86
Yes, because focused light really does carry a lot of kinetic energy...



While not "light" there is such a thing as a Particle Beam weapon which in fact does damage via kinetic energy. Particle Beams have actually been around a bit longer than lasers so are well established science fact (although for various reasons are impractical as a battlefield weapon today which is why you do not see any).

This would be in keeping with Amarr being energy weapon specialists.

If you want to get picky though what the hell is EM damage anyway? A laser is all thermal damage.

EDIT: If you want to get more picky what is Explosive damage except a combination of thermal and kinetic damage? I understand this is a game and I am cool with how/why CCP does this but if you want to keep Amarr away from other damage types for some scientific reason you need to look further.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.08.26 17:05:00 - [14]
 

I'm open to the idea of increasing thermal damage on lasers, or reducing their cap use.

Either one or the other, not both.

Either way, Amarr will rejoice.

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:07:00 - [15]
 

OP: Have you tried to kill a Sansha elite cruiser or battleship with explosive/kinetic damage? You get the excat same problem. Advantage with projectile ammo help though, but that is a Minmatarr advantage.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 26/08/2007 17:24:53
Originally by: Patch86
Yes, because focused light really does carry a lot of kinetic energy...



While not "light" there is such a thing as a Particle Beam weapon which in fact does damage via kinetic energy. Particle Beams have actually been around a bit longer than lasers so are well established science fact (although for various reasons are impractical as a battlefield weapon today which is why you do not see any).

This would be in keeping with Amarr being energy weapon specialists.

If you want to get picky though what the hell is EM damage anyway? A laser is all thermal damage.

EDIT: If you want to get more picky what is Explosive damage except a combination of thermal and kinetic damage? I understand this is a game and I am cool with how/why CCP does this but if you want to keep Amarr away from other damage types for some scientific reason you need to look further.


For al I know it is possible even in real life to seea a difference in kinetic and explosive damage (even if from a physic point of view that don't exist).

Almost all modern anti armor weapons do kinetic damage, with that I mean they penetrate armor usung kinetik energy. Even HEAT (Haigh Energy Anti Tank) wepons do that. Even if the jet of the waepon reach very high temperatures, it is the kinetic strenght of the jet that penetrate the armor, as the time needed to penetrate it is too little for the heat to propagate. When the jet has penetrated the armor it will expand and damage the area with the thermal component Linky to Wiki on HEAT wapons. This kind of ammunition, even if widely used on the tank guns has a reduced effect on infantry in open terrain (reduced for the caliber of the gun that fire the ammunition). This a perfect example of a kinetic/thermal weapon (rail/blasters).

Conventional high explosive, those used by indirect fire artillery and free fall bombs aren't focused in a single narrow jet but disperse equally in all direction. They work very well on unprotected infanty or larger not hardened structures, less on armored targets.
When used against an armored target they can breach the armor but if they don't get throught is they aren't incapale of doing damage as part of the energy is trasmitted trought the armorm causing spalling (the detachment of fragment of metals that will wound/kill the crew of a tank) and damaging internal components. Thiss seem a fairly good example of a explosive warhead.

Tyrrhena Maxus
Igneus Auctorita
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:46:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 26/08/2007 17:24:53
Originally by: Patch86
Yes, because focused light really does carry a lot of kinetic energy...



While not "light" there is such a thing as a Particle Beam weapon which in fact does damage via kinetic energy. Particle Beams have actually been around a bit longer than lasers so are well established science fact (although for various reasons are impractical as a battlefield weapon today which is why you do not see any).

This would be in keeping with Amarr being energy weapon specialists.

If you want to get picky though what the hell is EM damage anyway? A laser is all thermal damage.

EDIT: If you want to get more picky what is Explosive damage except a combination of thermal and kinetic damage? I understand this is a game and I am cool with how/why CCP does this but if you want to keep Amarr away from other damage types for some scientific reason you need to look further.


For al I know it is possible even in real life to seea a difference in kinetic and explosive damage (even if from a physic point of view that don't exist).

Almost all modern anti armor weapons do kinetic damage, with that I mean they penetrate armor usung kinetik energy. Even HEAT (Haigh Energy Anti Tank) wepons do that. Even if the jet of the waepon reach very high temperatures, it is the kinetic strenght of the jet that penetrate the armor, as the time needed to penetrate it is too little for the heat to propagate. When the jet has penetrated the armor it will expand and damage the area with the thermal component Linky to Wiki on HEAT wapons. This kind of ammunition, even if widely used on the tank guns has a reduced effect on infantry in open terrain (reduced for the caliber of the gun that fire the ammunition). This a perfect example of a kinetic/thermal weapon (rail/blasters).

Conventional high explosive, those used by indirect fire artillery and free fall bombs aren't focused in a single narrow jet but disperse equally in all direction. They work very well on unprotected infanty or larger not hardened structures, less on armored targets.
When used against an armored target they can breach the armor but if they don't get throught is they aren't incapale of doing damage as part of the energy is trasmitted trought the armorm causing spalling (the detachment of fragment of metals that will wound/kill the crew of a tank) and damaging internal components. Thiss seem a fairly good example of a explosive warhead.



Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Adding missile bonus' to Amarr is cool, though lasers really suck imho

General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:49:00 - [18]
 

You know that our Apoc can house all the Weapon Systems in EVE right ?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:51:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
For al I know it is possible even in real life to seea a difference in kinetic and explosive damage (even if from a physic point of view that don't exist).


Exactly...from a physics point of view is all that matters as that is what is actually happening.

A HEAT round from a tank delivers both kinetic and explosive damage. Kinetic at first the drive through armor then a shaped warhead explodes driving the explosion forward through any remaining armor and into the crew compartment. The shockwave in the crew compartment would be kinetic as well and will pulverize them before they fry from the heat but there is certainly a thermal component that will cook everything in there too.

You are right this is an almost useless weapon versus infantry because the explosive component is highly vectored in one direction. A more generic explosive that goes boom in a circle (or globe if you prefer) can get people in any direction as long as you are somewhat close. Those people may be killed by the shock wave or shrapnel (kinetic damage) or burned by the heat (thermal).

A kinetic weapon is exactly what a Rail Gun is. There is no component that explodes throwing thermal damage in. It is all in the impact.

Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:57:00 - [20]
 

EM: Damage caused by Electromagnetic (imagine that!) radiation... such as gamma rays, xrays, etc.
Thermal: Damage caused by heating something beyond its limits... sort of like a modern-day high-powered laser I guess.
Kinetic: Damage caused by an impact, such as a modern-day bullet.
Explosive: Damage caused by an... explosion, such as a modern-day bomb.

I think there are pretty clear distinctions here. I know that you can say that explosions really are just a mixture of kinetic and thermal damage, but we do make the distinction in modern-day life between explosive and non-explosive rounds.

And to the OP... I think Amarr laser damage is fine, actually. The nos nerf is actually going to take away a lot of Amarr ships' disadvantages; we'll still be a little weaker than average, but adding kinetic damage to lasers would just make us overpowered. Think about the Minmatar... all their T2 ammo is explosive and kinetic but they don't seem to have much of a problem in PvP.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.08.26 19:27:00 - [21]
 


Raven for missions, gallente for pvp.

Thats the secret. Smile

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2007.08.26 19:45:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Bumbum George
gallente really need explosive and em damage!!

so here it is, I am asking for it, so GIMMEEEEHHHH!!!


They have this actually, its called drones and racial drone bonuses. OP has a point, one of the problems with Amarr is theyre the only race that cant do all 4 damage types with their primary weapon.

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.08.26 19:52:00 - [23]
 

Simply remove the stacking nerf on heatsinks.. All will be put right again then.. Twisted Evil

Magazaki
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:06:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Magazaki on 26/08/2007 20:08:47
Originally by: Venkul Mul
For al I know it is possible even in real life to seea a difference in kinetic and explosive damage (even if from a physic point of view that don't exist).

Almost all modern anti armor weapons do kinetic damage, with that I mean they penetrate armor usung kinetik energy. Even HEAT (Haigh Energy Anti Tank) wepons do that. Even if the jet of the waepon reach very high temperatures, it is the kinetic strenght of the jet that penetrate the armor, as the time needed to penetrate it is too little for the heat to propagate. When the jet has penetrated the armor it will expand and damage the area with the thermal component Linky to Wiki on HEAT wapons. This kind of ammunition, even if widely used on the tank guns has a reduced effect on infantry in open terrain (reduced for the caliber of the gun that fire the ammunition). This a perfect example of a kinetic/thermal weapon (rail/blasters).


Actually, it is High EXPLOSIVE anti-tank, and heat propagated has nothing to do with it. It is just a kinetic warhead that explodes inside the tank. Its name does not imply it's "hot" or anything.

Apart from that, since this discussion has gone to physics anyway, I would like to add...

- Kinetic projectiles of relativistic speeds (EVE's railguns) actually "explode" to cause thermal damage as their kinetic energy forcibly transforms into thermal. (that's why meteorites explode on impact). In fact, above a certain kinetic energy/mass ratio, all projectiles will deal thermal/explosive damage.
- There is no such thing as "EM" damage. Period. There are "EM" pulses that wreak havoc on electronics (so conceivably shield generators but not armor on hull), and radiation can damage the DNA of living beings. But while Kinetic and Thermal energy in sufficient quantities can break stuff (and an explosion is just a kinetic shockwave usually caused by thermal energy) EM can do nothing of the sort.
- A laser in reality is thermal damage through and through. A Gamma or X-ray laser could conceivably also damage your DNA by radiation, but I sincerely doubt it would do that BEFORE you were completely evaporated.
- An explosion is just a way of using (usually thermal) energy to deal mainly kinetic damage in a radius instead of a point, by creating a (damaging) shockwave.
- In fact, the only "feasible" types of damaging energy in eve reality are kinetic and thermal. Projectiles: kinetic/thermal, rails: kinetic/thermal, lasers: thermal, blasters: thermal (the only thing they do by their description is shower you with hot plasma). Other types of energy (notably electrical and chemical) could conceivably work in RL (acid bombs et.c.), but do not exist in eve.

But it would be SOOOOO dull to only have 2 damage types and resistances, so please, PLEASE leave science out of it, it is made to be balanced and fun, not scientific. There is no need for RL analogies in truth. The only factors that are needed are:
a) Keeping the racial types of damage (Caldari: Kinetic>thermal, Gallente: Thermal>kinetic, Minmatar:Explosive>kinetic, Amarr:EM>thermal).
b) Keeping stuff balanced and not making someone chief of everything
c) Being reasonable.

That said, 50/50 em/thermal crystals would not be unreasonable. Everything above that would.

Egetsunai Yajuu
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:44:00 - [25]
 

the damage types in eve really dont make much sense in reality. kinetic = explosive, thermal almost = em... so it's a bit pointless complaining they're not realistic...

that said, lasers doing kinetic damage would just be silly and make baby jesus cry ugh
as for particle beam weapons, they'd probably be classed as rails in eve, given the ammo dialogue says something about them shooting superheated plasmas.

Kye Do'lan
Gallente
Order of the Domain
The Polaris Syndicate
Posted - 2007.08.26 21:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sazkyen
I mean come on. With 6M+ in gunnery, focused on lasers and certain missions are close to undoable.


So, howcome I can kill Rachen Mysuna in lv4 mission 'Vengance'(which imo is one of the hardest lv4 missions) with very little problem.
I mainly use a zealot for lv4 missions and can kill him with 'only' 4 x T2 heavy pulse lasers fitted.

Admitidly, lasers could do with some love, but I find them ok.


Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.08.26 21:28:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/08/2007 21:32:01

Am I the only one who noticed the complaint about lack of damage output is when fitting medium pulse lasers to an Abaddon?

m'kay...


Edit:

And to the above posters trying to mesh real physics and 'Eve physics' with regards to 'damage types' - don't do it, no really, don't...

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.08.26 21:43:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Patch86
Yes, because focused light really does carry a lot of kinetic energy...



Explain how lasers are supposed to do EM damage?

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.26 22:31:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
I'm open to the idea of increasing thermal damage on lasers, or reducing their cap use.

Either one or the other, not both.

Either way, Amarr will rejoice.


This is the solution - increacing Thermal damage is the key.

Ghaelsto Kakram
Mindgamers
Posted - 2007.08.26 22:48:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Explain how lasers are supposed to do EM damage?


Explain me how a shield works.
And why don't I have one on my planetary vehicle?

To OP. You fail. Adapt to where thousands have progressed with success.


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