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Highpriest Aden
Posted - 2007.08.25 13:33:00 - [1]
 

I cant see what a mothership has to do in empire. It's extremly hard to kill even in 0.0, but in empire you have no chance of keeping it down.
I saw 2 motherships in Aurenen near Nonni yesterday. a Aron and a Nyx class MS. I belive they had faction smartbombs.
Please dev's, Tell me a good reason why they can enter empire, or nerf it so they are 0.0 only
They can only be build there, so why even let them enter emp?

I made another tread about it, and this is what people think about the proplem.
thanks in adv.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=582157

Manira
Zoners
Superior Eve Engineering
Posted - 2007.08.25 13:49:00 - [2]
 

Time to put you on solid ground, first its not Aron but Aeon, second the system you are talking about is Aunenen with security status 0.4, 0.0 to 0.4 does not count as empire space, therefor theres no Concord, 0.5 to 1.0 is empire space.

Avalira
Caldari
The Black Light Foundation
Posted - 2007.08.25 14:52:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Manira
second the system you are talking about is Aunenen with security status 0.4, 0.0 to 0.4 does not count as empire space, therefor theres no Concord, 0.5 to 1.0 is empire space.


Actually 0.1 to 0.4 is considered empire space: lowsec empire space. Empires have sov on these systems so it belongs to them. Besides I'm sure the OP knew about it being a 0.4 system with no concord...

Back on topic, I too think that supercaps should not be allowed into 0.4 unless there are tools available, as in 0.0, to stop these from roaming pretty much freely.


Highpriest Aden
Posted - 2007.08.25 15:15:00 - [4]
 

lol. whatever if I spell pretty badly, talk to the hand.

but yeah. give us a tool inorder to kill a ms in empire ".4 or below -- also called lowsec empire"
AS someone told me, more and more ms comes ingame, and if you cant blow a ms up in empire, we will see a boom in the numbers.
I see this as a quite big proplem, a proplem that only will grow bigger and bigger as time goes.

Does the dev's have something to state on this? :D

onetowto
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2007.08.25 17:59:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: onetowto on 25/08/2007 17:59:25
To kill MS in low sec, you gotta have alot of support and well planned operation. Not allowing them in empire would hurt the people that dont use it for pirate.

Neuts and blocking their path

I.e Major alliances use it for moving stuff about.

So, Yes they can be killed. Its not easy. But you just gotta try Razz

Ayari
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2007.08.25 22:24:00 - [6]
 

Would anybody have a problem with CCP enabling 'dictor bubbles in lowsec? More podkills for the pirates, less Motherships in lowsec for Anti-Pirates.



Aeryn Scorpius
Posted - 2007.08.25 22:40:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ayari
Would anybody have a problem with CCP enabling 'dictor bubbles in lowsec? More podkills for the pirates, less Motherships in lowsec for Anti-Pirates.



erm.. yes i woul more like a variant like "not imune to scramblers if system sec > 0.0". Same effect in the end, less whines (except ms pilots that gank in low sec but since we all know that they have no balls I've no problem with their whines)

Beastofburden
Posted - 2007.08.25 22:45:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ayari
Would anybody have a problem with CCP enabling 'dictor bubbles in lowsec? More podkills for the pirates, less Motherships in lowsec for Anti-Pirates.



Dictor bubbles in lowsec would bring way more problems then they would "solve".
Of course, MSs are a pain to kill without them, but the ability to bubble up gates
would benefit the pirates massively.

Icome4u
Caldari
28 Meows Later
Infinitas Consortium
Posted - 2007.08.25 23:53:00 - [9]
 

Motherships got nerfed enough already. Stop whining ****ing noobs.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.25 23:56:00 - [10]
 

The problem with bubbles in low-sec is mainly at the gates, so make the gate sentry guns shoot at any warp disruptors being deployed.

Highpriest Aden
Posted - 2007.08.26 00:23:00 - [11]
 

dictor bubbels in empire, dont solve anything.
give us a method to keep a ms grounded in a system, or simply ban them from beeing used in empire.
Carriers can do the same as a MS, it takes more hauls, but logistic shouldent be a valid reason to let them moan around in empire.
They can only be build in 0.0 if you have sovej. Why not let them stay in 0.0 alongwith the titans.
I dont see myself as a whiner, but the fact that it's nearly impossible to kill a ms in empire ****es me off.
It's like the titan before the nerf. IMO the MS in empire is overpowerd in it's current state.

Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2007.08.26 02:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Ayari
Would anybody have a problem with CCP enabling 'dictor bubbles in lowsec? More podkills for the pirates, less Motherships in lowsec for Anti-Pirates.



No bubbles is one of the major differences between lowsec and nullsec. You really want to give Murder Death Kill, sniggerdly and Pandemic Legion and all the other organized lowsec pirate corps bubbles? One of the nice things about lowsec is that, barring lag, smartbombing BS or ceptors, you can usually get the pod out if you get ganked. Get ganked in a bubble camp? Your pod is toast, 99% of the time.

The lack of bubbles makes lowsec seem (whether it is or not) less risky than nullsec. Let's leave it that way. Supercaps really have no place in lowsec, and adding dictor bubbles just makes lowsec 0.0 with sentry guns and no DDWs.

ghosttr
Amarr
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.08.26 03:45:00 - [13]
 

Well I think CCP needs to keep up with trying to bring more people into lowsec. Dictor bubbles would scare more people away than the moms do. But I also dont thinking having a way to kill it would decrease the number of ms in lowsec either. I think that removing the ewar invulnerability would be the best way to do it, then its offenses could be effectively crippled without requiring a force that is able to kill it.

Meditril
Posted - 2007.08.26 07:39:00 - [14]
 

One solution to the mothership problem is to make them not invulnerable towards Warp Scramblers. Just give them 8 warp core strength points. So that you need many ships to scramble them but it is not impossible.

Merrick Solipsus
Shadows Of The Requiem
Eternus Imperium Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.26 08:51:00 - [15]
 

They just need to make it so MSs lose their invulnerability to EW in lowsec. Easy fast fix. Still very powerful but not unstopable.

DMF KingBob
Posted - 2007.08.26 11:45:00 - [16]
 

first... 0.4 - 0.1 is empire you can see is on the senty guns,stations from empire corps and in the left top conor of your screen

and think mothership in 0.1-0.4 is unstopable and should be fixed

Acacia Everto
INTERNET HARBLRAGE
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:43:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Meditril
One solution to the mothership problem is to make them not invulnerable towards Warp Scramblers. Just give them 8 warp core strength points. So that you need many ships to scramble them but it is not impossible.


I like this idea. I think that all capitals should get a stronger warp core. It is after all a capital ship. It shouldn't take a tiny frigate to completely lock down a capital, it should take some planning just like motherships. Maybe +4 for Carriers/Dreads and +9 for MSes/Titans

Fenlaw
Posted - 2007.08.26 17:56:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Acacia Everto
Originally by: Meditril
One solution to the mothership problem is to make them not invulnerable towards Warp Scramblers. Just give them 8 warp core strength points. So that you need many ships to scramble them but it is not impossible.


I like this idea. I think that all capitals should get a stronger warp core. It is after all a capital ship. It shouldn't take a tiny frigate to completely lock down a capital, it should take some planning just like motherships. Maybe +4 for Carriers/Dreads and +9 for MSes/Titans


actually it should be more along the lines of

Dread/Carries 15 points
Mommy 30points
Titan 50points

its not like you are going to kill the ships with less ships than suggested point above. Capturing a supercap in lowsec should require teamwork.

However, each point chould make take slightly longer for the supercap to align/warp and possibly add a countdown timer for it to enter a cyno jump, giving u more and more time to trap it while supporty keeps jumping in to pin it don (ie reach its scram limit, 15, 30, 50...)

Each new point should only add to the timer and NOT reset it as well or it could be abused by a solo frig cyceling 1-n scrams.

"Ongoing attemps to warp scramble you are effecting the warp core. Engineers are working on it and expect to have solved the problem in 9 seconds"

Im typing this with my 4 month old in my arms so I dont have the ability to elaborate right now but this could be one way to help you permanently pin it down even in low-sec and would probably get some mommy pirates think twice about camping a lowesec gate with non or small support.

The Kan
Gallente
The Circle
SOLAR WING
Posted - 2007.08.27 05:40:00 - [19]
 

Yes, let's wine and cry about a ship that takes MONTHS and BILLIONS to build.

mothership are not carriers, they cant be built in a station, need to be in a POS with sov inplace, minerals alone to move around is weeks worth of work, not to mention mining/buy the mineral, produce cap parts, is at least 2 months work, moving the parts to the pos, a day or two, for 4 weeks more in production where you have to defende it day and night..

stop winning, just because you cant afford/fly one.

geez, enoufg with the nerf's, you will kill this game this way!

Dominique Derval
Maedcheninternat
Posted - 2007.08.27 05:58:00 - [20]
 

Motherships in (Low-Sec)empire-space are a real pain. They shouldn't be there. And when they are there, others should have a possibility to kill them. Thoretically it is possible. But only theoretically.

Saying that motherships are ok in low-sec because of their high production costs is not a valid argument. Imagine your are driving on a road with a speed limit of 50km/h even if you could drive 70. Then comes the porsche-driver and passes you with 100km/h and says: "Hey, it absolutely legal, my car is more expensive than yours!"

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.27 06:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: The Kan
Yes, let's wine and cry about a ship that takes MONTHS and BILLIONS to build.

mothership are not carriers, they cant be built in a station, need to be in a POS with sov inplace, minerals alone to move around is weeks worth of work, not to mention mining/buy the mineral, produce cap parts, is at least 2 months work, moving the parts to the pos, a day or two, for 4 weeks more in production where you have to defende it day and night..

stop winning, just because you cant afford/fly one.

geez, enoufg with the nerf's, you will kill this game this way!


This is a bogus argument. The issue is that MS are unkillable in low sec. There is no way to pin one down.

No one is saying they should be easy to kill. They should be bloody difficult to nail but NOT impossible.

There are a few issues with MS in low sec:

- Officer Smartbombs: These remove one of a supercap's drawbacks (namely targetting time). In addition smartbombs are not supposed to be able to cover a gate but due to the way SBs work the MS size allows added range as well as the added range from Officer SB. Result? They can cover a gate and pop anything below a BC in size.

If CCP intends to allow them in low sec then make a new Capital Smartbomb module and restrict cap ships ot using ONLY those class SBs. Capital class SBs would have no more range or damage than a Large SB but would have drastically higher fitting reqs and cap usage (so they ding the setup same as a large SB would on a battleship). You can RP this by saying lighting one off on such a large ship simply requires much more massive resources (makes sense really).

- Make them stoppable in low sec. There are a few ways they could do this. Either make them susceptible to being warp scrammed (with some suitably high innate warp stab strength) or make it that Cynos take a LOT longer to activate and use in low sec. Or cost a LOT more cap or fuel. Or some combination of these. The balance is there somewhere and not saying what it is here. Just pointing out some possibilities.

Baherroth
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2007.08.27 10:24:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Baherroth on 27/08/2007 10:25:15
so you want a Mothership(a 30-40b ship) be as easy to kill as a Carrier(which is easy) okayyy....
if this happens, i can see ppl using the new Rorqual as a support ship at a decreased price compared to a MS
anyway, MS arent overpowered, cos, you can easily escape a MS, a MS cant solo, unless its target is REALLY stupid, and carriers require ALOT of ships to kill them, so if you think you can take em out with a small gang in low sec, think again

oh and btw:
it EXTREMLY easy to kill a MS in lowsec, its called Neut/Nos/Bumping it AND dropping cans next to it to stop it moving.........

General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
Posted - 2007.08.27 10:27:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: General Apocalypse on 27/08/2007 10:28:52
Originally by: Ayari
Would anybody have a problem with CCP enabling 'dictor bubbles in lowsec? More podkills for the pirates, less Motherships in lowsec for Anti-Pirates.





It will make low sec very very very empty .

An 2-3 moms will die fast to 5-10 dreads + 5 carriers + 2-4 NanoMachs

EDIT : By the way i look around and i don't see any pvp veterans so STFU n00bs

Lewis Breaker
Posted - 2007.08.27 11:44:00 - [24]
 

Too many noobs crying, too many things being nerfed.

If you are finding a low sec hard, dont go there until you are ready!

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2007.08.27 13:45:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: General Apocalypse
Edited by: General Apocalypse on 27/08/2007 10:28:52


EDIT : By the way i look around and i don't see any pvp veterans so STFU n00bs


The typical "Mighty PVP I-WIN card". You just can't take a discussion, can you Rolling Eyes.
Being on the receiving end of a camping MS, actually makes them veterans. I bet you have yet to lose a ship to such a scenario. Then how can you say anything about this??? Actually, you are the n00b in this case.

As for me and my opinion, I have none. Never flown a MS and never lost a ship to one. So I'm just as much a n00b as the general here. But by the sound if it, it could use some tweaking.

Fenlaw
Posted - 2007.08.27 13:59:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Fenlaw on 27/08/2007 14:00:47
Originally by: Baherroth
Edited by: Baherroth on 27/08/2007 10:25:15
so you want a Mothership(a 30-40b ship) be as easy to kill as a Carrier(which is easy) okayyy....
if this happens, i can see ppl using the new Rorqual as a support ship at a decreased price compared to a MS
anyway, MS arent overpowered, cos, you can easily escape a MS, a MS cant solo, unless its target is REALLY stupid, and carriers require ALOT of ships to kill them, so if you think you can take em out with a small gang in low sec, think again

oh and btw:
it EXTREMLY easy to kill a MS in lowsec, its called Neut/Nos/Bumping it AND dropping cans next to it to stop it moving.........


Good thing corps, wrecks and cans wont be changed so that ships pass through them... oh wait ....

Funny nobody commented on my ide about gradually being able to pin it down whilst giving it ample time to leave. Sure you can go "a mothership has such a reinfoced warp core shield it cannot be distrupted" or you can say "a mothership has such a reinficed warp core shield it is going to take massive amounts of disruption to disrupt it". A frig shouldn't be able to pin down a mom but 30 of them should.

If eve was consisent with ship sized mods it would be easier. Very simple and unbalanced example to illustrate (many ship classes are omitted for clarity)

Frig scram = 1 (20km) / 2 (7500m)
BC scram = 2 (20km) / 3 (7500m)
BS scram = 3 (20km) / 4 (7500m)
Mommy = 50 (20km) / 55 (7500m)

Again these are illustrativ numbers. The lowest scram strength a ship class can fit should be the natural shielding a warp core of the same ship class has, so

Frig 1
BC 2
BS 3
Mommy 50 (revised from earlier post, but still just an arbirtairy number)

Then it all comes down to getting the needed number of points. It makes more sense to have to use something like this to scram a BS using frig(s)

1. One frig with either 3x20km, 2x7500m or 1x20km + 1x7500m you are sacrificing mid slots to be able to tackle something larger than yourself. You also have the option to scram it from range, requireing you to sacrifice 3 midslots or close up (2 slots).

2. A group of frigs, 2 minimum with various range scrams. To pin a BS down from 20km and only use one medslot each you would need 3 frigs with one 20km scrams.

I think you get the idea. To tackle something larger than yourself you will either have to sacrifice medslots or work with friends.

So to to scram a mommy without a dictor (for example lowsec) you would need enough ships of the right sort to pull it of, ie in theory you could get

50 frigs with 1x20km scram each or 25 frigs with 1 x 7500m scram each (not likely is it? smartbomb anyone?)

or you could have a BS fleet tackle it. Again all these values are just for illustration and no balancing have been included what so ever.

I think it's fair to say that 25-30 battleships should be able to get enough warp disruption strength to penetrate the shields of a mommys worp core and prevent it from warping... think about it.. a SINGLE dictor can prevent it from warping.. maybe not permanently but for a short period of time it can, so why can't 30 BS do the same?

It also makes sense that if a BS points its disruptor on a frig it shouldnt be able to warp of if it has 1 stab on.. it would need more core shielding to be able to deflect the massive power projected towards it from a ship of superior size. If a mommy scrams a frig it should basically never ever be able to warp of (heck it should just burst into flames from the pure amount of energy hehe)

Fenlaw
Posted - 2007.08.27 14:32:00 - [27]
 

A few more thoughts...

I do see a huge down side here (besides from the 'you wont be able to kill anything' comments) and that is at current state this would promote blob warfare. Another solution here could be the (wait for it....) introduction of a new ship class, the 'Tackler Class'.

A tackler today is essential in any gangs and are usually made up of frigs, interceptors and dictors. A tackler class ship should be the "jump in first, pin stuff down and be able to tank long enough for backup to arrive", so maybe something like the logistics ships (survivability) with (maybe!) the introduction of some speciall warp scram mod for tacklers.

The ship could get some bonus to range or strength as well as cpu requirement drops (like carriers for drone mod, recons for covert cloaks and such) so it could only be fitted on that ship class and also you'd need to skill up to be able to fit multiple mods..

Im just shooting ideas here, but it would maybe reduce the number of ships on a grid because you have a dedicated tackler class out there doing its job .. sure I would hate to fly one.. wonder who'd be called primary hehe

batmoth
Amarr
Cardinal Armada
Razakel.
Posted - 2007.08.27 17:43:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: batmoth on 27/08/2007 17:50:46
here is something to wrap your brain around.

1. how is a corp that build capitols able to set these up for building?
granted they would have to use pos's in 0.0 but moving supplies I.E. mins or componets in a efficent manner.
thus increasing the cost of moving stuff .

2. how would you be able to move a MS from one region to another with a base jump range of 4ly?

can you say 30 jumps? thus increasing ice fuel costs thoughout the game.

just because a few of you whine about MS's in lowsec doesnt mean anything.

A. lowsec cannot be claimed (no worries about you lossing a station to dock in)
B. pirates got nerfed bad with the warp to 0 (of course they are going to take every advantage they can)

my suggestion is to suck it up take off the tin foil hats and relieze that a MS needs a other player or alt to leave a system they cant use gate so if one appears you know what system he is in and avoid that system. also if your about to complain about hualers getting ganked by MS's then did you ever think of having scouts. also MS's lock times are long so you should be able to run if you are in a mining barge or a ratting ship. for the mining barge just make sure ur alliged to either the station or a SS.

Edit: spelling

Stephannus Calimben
Posted - 2007.08.28 00:01:00 - [29]
 

motherships cost 40billion + mods to buy. How many pirates do you think actually own one of these? like 4? You're talking about nerfing an entire ship class because a few super old super rich pirates have one?

the lock times on one of those things is so long, that even with sensor boosters he's not gunna be able to get you if you unless you afk.

The only thing motherships can really do on a gate is tank, gang assist, and smartbomb, and considering a smartbombing battleship is maybe 70% as effective and 3% as expensive, you might as well have 3 smartbombing battleships than one mothership. and its not like they can smartbomb everything coming to the gate, only **** coming across their path. if you have anything expensive you should be hopping from gate-safespot-safespot-gate not gate-gate, and definately not without a scout.

motherships may be the ultimate smartbombers, but theyre still not cost effective for gatecamping, theyre just a giant e-***** for a few grizzly old vets.

Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2007.08.28 00:10:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 28/08/2007 00:11:08
Originally by: Stephannus Calimben
motherships cost 40billion + mods to buy. How many pirates do you think actually own one of these? like 4? You're talking about nerfing an entire ship class because a few super old super rich pirates have one?

the lock times on one of those things is so long, that even with sensor boosters he's not gunna be able to get you if you unless you afk.

The only thing motherships can really do on a gate is tank, gang assist, and smartbomb, and considering a smartbombing battleship is maybe 70% as effective and 3% as expensive, you might as well have 3 smartbombing battleships than one mothership. and its not like they can smartbomb everything coming to the gate, only **** coming across their path. if you have anything expensive you should be hopping from gate-safespot-safespot-gate not gate-gate, and definately not without a scout.

motherships may be the ultimate smartbombers, but theyre still not cost effective for gatecamping, theyre just a giant e-***** for a few grizzly old vets.

1) We're talking about nerfing a ship class because it is invulnerable and un-killable in lowsec.
2) With a pair of officer SBs a mom locks faster than any non-boosted battleship.
3) Except you can kill those battleships, you can't kill the mom.
4) 24 orge I's will kill most stuff pretty damn quick and they are quite usable.

The devs nerfed stabs because they didn't want people to be able to engage and then run whenever they felt like it. If they still believe that then moms need to be tacklable in lowsec or not allowed to go there.


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