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Markus Aurelian
Posted - 2007.08.26 22:39:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Markus Aurelian
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Warp 500 frigates from various locations at 0 onto the ms, have it smartbomb them, and have the wrecks bump it. Then, after a week of crying, CCP will change it so you can fly through wrecks.


its already being changed, its in the patch notes.


You don't know why it's being changed, do you Rolling Eyes


the why doesnt affect the results does itRolling Eyes

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.26 23:32:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: The End
MOMs should cost 100bil +, maybe more, and Titans should cost 250bil+



should, should, should...

Originally by: The End

So, this would reduce the amount of people having them and thus the amount of "invincible gate camps" in low sec. However, MOMS/Titans are expensive supercaps which should have special privileges.



Price doesn't work as a detterent. Once upon a time, carriers and dreads were rare. MOMs will become just more and more common. At some point, they'll have to be dealt with.

At one point in the past, BS were solo-pwn-mobiles against anything smaller, being able to do full damage against a frig and so on. The argument 'BS are rare' did not stop CCP from nerfing it. And BS are exceptionally common today. Things change.

Originally by: The End

A mom can be killed in low sec on a jump-in, using neuts and proper bumping tactics.



If the pilot is a cretin and does not pay attention, yes. I can kill a AFK nanomach in my Rifter, you know.

Originally by: The End

Also, you dont have to kill it to defeat it. Jump in your capital fleet and watch the MOM vanish, which opens up the gate and takes care of so-called "invincible" MOM.



Ok, so you're saying, it should be invincible? It's like saying that warp scramblers should be removed, because making someone flee is defeating him Rolling Eyes

Originally by: The End

Remember, you're asking that a MOM be vulnerable like a carrier (i.e.- a few damps and some bs), which is absolute bull****. A mom can be "defeated", but perhaps not killed and that is good enough.


So, now you say, it's fine that a MOM is not killable in low-sec. Why didn't you just say so instead of posting a whole tirade first? It's a crappy attitude, anyway. In three years from now, you can expect to see MOMs in hundreds. Going to be very amusing with thousands of unkillable ships in game, right?

BTW, nobody was asking for a MOM to be as vunerable as a carrier. It just needs a way to be held down in low-sec, as putting dictor bubbles in low-sec would make it preety much impossible for any small corp / solo-ers to live there, thus in effect nerfing piracy completely.

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.26 23:50:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Draoidh
"can you explain me why a MS should be allowed to camp a .4 system, since it's soo friggin hard to kill?"

I still do not understand why not. I am sorry but this thread is really just a whine about "I want to kill it but cant". If you dont like it camping the system then get your corp to warp in and force it to jump out. If your corp is not strong enough, too bad. Complaining about not being able to take out one of the most powerful ships in the game is just lame.

==D



CCP has something called the nerfbat. They use it when gamemechanics become unballanced. Aint a mothership camping a 0.4 a little unballanced, since it IS really frikin hard to kill? And even if your at the point of killing it, it will jump out..

I say nerf nerf nerfVery Happy

The End
Amarr
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.08.26 23:58:00 - [64]
 

Cpt Branko, you're just an idiot and I hate you!!Evil or Very Mad

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.27 00:07:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: The End
Cpt Branko, you're just an idiot and I hate you!!Evil or Very Mad


Bwahahah, logic strikes you perfectly, wrecking for thread damage. Yarrr! YARRRR!!

The End
Amarr
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.08.27 00:09:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: The End on 27/08/2007 00:19:16
Edited by: The End on 27/08/2007 00:18:55
DIEZOR!!Evil or Very Mad


DONT NERF MY MOMMMY!!!


kthx

p.s.- at Reto

Reto:
Quote:
its freakin strange but i know some dedicated pilots who would pay u an enourmous sum for the info and a warpin spot on one of those motherships.



In Aunenen, at the Nonni gate (less than 10km from it)... Come get someWink

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.27 00:36:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: The End
Edited by: The End on 27/08/2007 00:19:16
Edited by: The End on 27/08/2007 00:18:55
DIEZOR!!Evil or Very Mad


DONT NERF MY MOMMMY!!!


kthx

p.s.- at Reto

Reto:
Quote:
its freakin strange but i know some dedicated pilots who would pay u an enourmous sum for the info and a warpin spot on one of those motherships.



In Aunenen, at the Nonni gate (less than 10km from it)... Come get someWink


I rly hope you where drunk when you typed this and that you cant remember that you typed it tomorrowVery Happy

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.08.27 06:00:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Spenz on 27/08/2007 06:01:02
I love all the mothership pilots...err...elite players saying "oh its EASY to kill a mothership in lowsec you just cant be a NOOB!".

Can any one of them name any...ANY motherships that have been killed in lowsec? Any? anyone? Somebody? hello? ok...

Yep I thought so. If its so EASY, then why hasnt it been done. Its been tried I know that for sure (remembers an attempt by 24+ nanotyphoons with NOS and neuts that failed when the mothership just jumped out like nothing happened).

I think one of the deep seeded issues with supercaps was well explained in the DDD nerf. A Titan, no matter what the cap consumption of a DDD is set to, will always be able to warp or jump in 3 seconds. Now this underlines the supreme cap recharge you can get with officer modules.

Bottom line there is only one thing that can kill a mothership in lowsec. That thing is pilot error. Mothership pilots, rationalize it all you want. Doesnt change it from being true. If its so easy to kill you, why dont you show us sometime.

So lets say you get eno

hellsknights
Element 115.
Posted - 2007.08.27 06:53:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Highpriest Aden
I see 2 motherships in a .4 system nighboursystem to nonni. I have nothing against piracy, hence it's a part of the game, and have always been. What I dont understand is why a MS "that cant be scrambeld" can enter a lowsec system?
Even if my corp had 20 dreads, and wantet to pop it, we couldent keep the ms down.. it would just laugh, wait alittle, and jump out.
the only way to kill it is to get it agroed,and then take away it's cap, jump in the firepower and pop it. Wish us good luck!

It should be nerfed. If it was ordenary carriers they were sitting in, kool. we could assemble a force, and do some PVP'ing, but no way against a MS!
Titans and motherships I belive should be a 0.0 thingie, since they can only be build outthere. I look forward to the next patch!



BLAH,BLAH,BLAH, atleast they won't kill you, high sec is of limite to them.Laughing

Now quite your complaining and play the game.Mad

CCCP lalalalalla
Posted - 2007.08.27 07:03:00 - [70]
 

I dont know what kind of noobs are in these forums.. but a mothership comes out to be less than 15 bil if built right. They are also not killable at this price in low sec. WTF IS THE POINT OF HAVING A SHIP THAT CANNOT BE KILLED IN LOWSEC. REALLY L33T PVP DOODS. I WOULD WHINE TO WHEN CCP GOES CRAZY WITH STUPID IDEAS LIKE MOTERSHIPS, ITS LIKE THEY LOST THEIR BRAINS AFTER RMR.

R3DSKULL
Amarr
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.08.27 07:33:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: R3DSKULL on 27/08/2007 07:36:25
Edited by: R3DSKULL on 27/08/2007 07:33:34
Ok then so there are a few good ideas people have. On one hand the Mom pilots are right its a freaking Mothership. In most movies either something bigger or an army has to attack them, or they have to be killed from the inside. Since well only a few of those work. But not in low sec then consider this.

1.dictor bubbles would work how in empire? do the gate guns blast you for dropping one? i suppose a dicter is a small sacrifice to catch a mom. Becuase we all know how fast a dicter lasts against sentries.

2.Make sentries attackable so dicters can use bubbles in empire. if this happens does this mean we can use smart bombs close to gates at our own risk.

Not all nerfs are good ie the lame nos one coming. But often they occur for a reason. Its an attempt at balance. Now the other huge problem is Moms can just jump away. Ok so you cant stop it. And you cant follow it?? A pilot with good skills even if it has a range to jump shorter than a dread. You cant do anything to it hands down. So far the best thing ive seen is that it would have a triage type module that keeps it safe from ewar. But then u have well a small army of bs and some ewar ships and bye mom too easy....

So we cant come up with a way to just nerf it. This game needs to stop going backwards. It always nerfs, takes away! Somone once commented that progressions of techonology should move foward. So lets say somone creates a module used for capturing ships such as moms. but makes it vulnerable while doing so. or a ship designed to battle it. Or only another mothership can scramble one. OR a titan. Even the battlefield. you can do damage to somone by knocking down there fighters but they have drones and they are cheap and if you can afford a mom i doubt u dont have fighter bpos. Or plenty of isk to replace them.

The simple solution to this problem is in progressive changes. like in real life technology progresses somone invents a weapon somone makes one better. This makes most sense. Mother Ships are strong but invent something to counter it. I mean we have more ships coming, maybe a t2 tier 3 bs would be designed to tackle moms. A bonus for it specifically to have a cyno jammer for mothership signatures. The science and technology are there. I mean for example in early star trek they coulndt detect cloaked ships. then they learned they emit tachyon particles. Then they could get better at detecting them. It didnt nerf cloaking ships but gave them a fighting chance if they were smart. Moms and the solution should be in same direction. Progressive not regressive. Nerfing is regressive use progressive technology.

WildSide
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.08.27 07:39:00 - [72]
 

or just do as with the remote ecm burst, fit a mom warp disuptor that only moms can fit, like the remote ecm burst fit. with short range. its also able to scramble titans.

Doxs Roxs
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.08.27 08:01:00 - [73]
 

Giving titans and motherships near invulnerability in low sec is just plain stupid.

A simple solution would be to change their warp scramble immunity to a blockade runner style bonus.
But instead of +2 they could get something like +30 or maybe even +50-60 (or higher, whatever is deemed balanced).

In addition to this a capital warp scrambler should be added, give it a scramble strength of 10 or something (same here, exact figures have to be balanced).

Thus, if you have a large fleet or 5-6 dreads you could lock a mothership or a titan down. They would no longer be near invulnerable.
Meanwhile the super capitals are not overly nerfed, they would still be very hard to catch, ensuring you do get value for your isk spent on it.

Regards
/Doxs

General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
Posted - 2007.08.27 09:55:00 - [74]
 

5 dreads + 5 carriers + 2-4 nanomachs = dead moms now STFU n00bs and use your brains . Like MC/BoB/RED etc.

AFTRUNX
Caldari
Human Liberty Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.27 11:26:00 - [75]
 

camping MS in low sec is so boring....

look at this...

MS low sec camping

nothing better to do?

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.27 11:31:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/08/2007 11:32:37
Originally by: General Apocalypse
5 dreads + 5 carriers + 2-4 nanomachs = dead moms now STFU n00bs and use your brains . Like MC/BoB/RED etc.



Er, LOL.

Ever heard of jumping?

MC, BoB and RED mostly operate in 0.0. The place with dictors and so on. We're talking about low-sec here.

Anyway, when's the last time a MOM got killed in low-sec? Eh?


Allowing bubbles in low-sec, though, is just insane. It'd make for non-breakable gatecamps. Which would've been a huge nerf to small corps and individuals operating in low-sec. Which would be bad for piracy, seeing it would massively reduce the amount of targets available.

Best isk
Posted - 2007.08.27 11:33:00 - [77]
 

nerf nerf moms bad for me business Evil or Very Mad

Castra Noor
Posted - 2007.08.27 12:58:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Doxs Roxs
Giving titans and motherships near invulnerability in low sec is just plain stupid.

A simple solution would be to change their warp scramble immunity to a blockade runner style bonus.
But instead of +2 they could get something like +30 or maybe even +50-60 (or higher, whatever is deemed balanced).

In addition to this a capital warp scrambler should be added, give it a scramble strength of 10 or something (same here, exact figures have to be balanced).

Thus, if you have a large fleet or 5-6 dreads you could lock a mothership or a titan down. They would no longer be near invulnerable.
Meanwhile the super capitals are not overly nerfed, they would still be very hard to catch, ensuring you do get value for your isk spent on it.

Regards
/Doxs


That would be a good solution, and people asked for something like this for 0.0 for titans and motherships back then. But ccp ovedone it, allowing to trap them with simple bubbles. I think the same thing will happen in lowsec soon. Caus its simple and easy, what a shame.

Heikki
Gallente
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2007.08.27 12:58:00 - [79]
 

Even thought not yet urgent issue, motherships' near-immunity in lowsec is growing one. Production rate of motherships is quite higher than their lossrate, especially after new sovereignity benefits.

For not-so-nerfing fix, perhaps have docking/jumping aggro-timer also affect all kind of cynosural jumps (via cynofield, bridge, array etc)? I.e. once you agro something you'll get message like "Your weapons systems have to cool down before initiating jump drive.." for the next 60 seconds.

In consequence, dedicated team might trap an aggressing MS (with couple nanoships, cyno, and fleet of dreads). Wouldn't stop MS from doing nasty things, but might stop it from using predictable patterns (like camping same lowsec gate for hours).


-Lasse

gordon cain
Posted - 2007.08.27 15:04:00 - [80]
 

omg did you just die to one or soemthing. No reasen to spam everywhere with this. You already have a thread in "Game development forum".

Get a grip man.

gordon cain

Emokid 94
Posted - 2007.08.27 15:59:00 - [81]
 

Maybe have the space holding race in the current area to jump in a few NPC ships as soon as a MS enter lo-sec, as a reaction to such a threat entering their space?
If they get aggroed, more ships enter, and more, until the MS has to leave.
Could be nice to actually throw in some role-play in this as well at the same time.

Dreadpilot Roberts
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.08.27 16:03:00 - [82]
 

bah ... its bad enough they cannot enter high-sec ... now stop whiningRolling Eyes

Odium47
Posted - 2007.08.27 16:40:00 - [83]
 

So it really cant be drained out of energy with Neutralizers or Nos ?
How about throwing some cargo, or using containers to make the MS bump into them, instead of wrecks ?

Celestal
Posted - 2007.08.27 16:46:00 - [84]
 

I see no reason for supercaps ( moms + titans ) to be allowed in low sec .

Anyone who thinks they should be allowed in low sec should get in a cloaked ship , wait for miz cenuij to come online , then sit in otou for an hour watching miz smartbombing ships coming in . About 95% of the ships are rookie ships/shuttles . There is no skill involved , no danger just mindless killing of noobs (anyone slightly older simply plates/extends/wcs their ship and proceeds safely through.

In fact I would challenge a GM/dev to observe this for an hour then give us a public justification for allowing this .

A few days ago miz was camping the gate in a nyx with vegeta ( who flies fenian miz`s scamming buddy ) also in a nyx . So how will the armchair generals plan to kill 2 nyxes camping a gate in low sec ?

Jacob Swell
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.27 17:47:00 - [85]
 

Super capitals should be restricted to 0.0 space. In all the whining of "plz don't nerf MS!" has there been a valid reason why a MS should be allowed into low sec space. Outside of the bizarre thought experiment tactics that logistically would never work ingame posted on the forums, there is no way to tackle and kill a MS in lowsec. Such invulnerability means the pirate can attack and camp with impunity. While pirates get their kicks, it hurts low sec on the whole as it encourages players to remain within high-sec.

MirrorGod
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.08.27 18:21:00 - [86]
 

Well, considering they can't dock, I'd think it'd be a challenge but they are killable. 1) You have to kill the POS where they park it or 2) Probe down the pilot after it's logged off aggressed and jump a Dread fleet in with some Neut Domi's in case the pilot attempts to log back in. There you go, problem solved.

Thread fails. Whine fails.

TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.08.27 18:36:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: MirrorGod
Well, considering they can't dock, I'd think it'd be a challenge but they are killable. 1) You have to kill the POS where they park it or 2) Probe down the pilot after it's logged off aggressed and jump a Dread fleet in with some Neut Domi's in case the pilot attempts to log back in. There you go, problem solved.

Thread fails. Whine fails.


No, you fail.

xenodia
Gallente
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION
ORPHANS OF EVE
Posted - 2007.08.27 18:43:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: xenodia on 27/08/2007 18:52:05
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Draoidh
"can you explain me why a MS should be allowed to camp a .4 system, since it's soo friggin hard to kill?"

I still do not understand why not. I am sorry but this thread is really just a whine about "I want to kill it but cant". If you dont like it camping the system then get your corp to warp in and force it to jump out. If your corp is not strong enough, too bad. Complaining about not being able to take out one of the most powerful ships in the game is just lame.

==D



'Powerful' and 'Expensive' should NEVER EVER EVER equal 'invincible', and that's what a mothership in lowsec is.


Im sure theres many a country with a small coastal navy that would REALLY have liked to do something about Aircraft carriers cruising off their coast. To them, the aircraft carrier probably seemed invincible too. Its not, the country in question just lacked the necessary resources to destroy it or drive it away.

Im fine with motherships and/or titans being allowed in .4 systems. It IS possible to kill them unless they jump out immediately. And if they jump out.... well you still won. You got rid of the thing, just without the pretty explosion.

If CCP ever decides to make MOMs able to be tackled, I hope its only by another MOM or titan. Like make a special module only fittable by supercaps that prevents ANY capital from jumping out of the grid (including the supercap that used the module, and its friends). In other words, a MOM could scramble another MOM, but while doing so also scrambles itself and any caps supporting it. At least then youd have to really commit to the fight if you wanted to scramble a MOM.


Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2007.08.27 20:17:00 - [89]
 

There is no motive to allow supercapitals in low sec. They can only be built in 0.0. They are, as titans, Alliance war machines and should be restricted to alliance wars.

Using your example, my naive mate, although American airship carriers can go with relatively impunity near places like Middle East, they won't pass even near China or Russia, for example. In the same way, motherships shouldn't be able to get near the great empire factions space.

People defending Mothership invulnerabilities are most likely people who have one or are near getting one and want to play a game where they cannot be beaten. Pathetic people who can't stand real opposition.

Jacob Swell
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.27 21:34:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: MirrorGod
Well, considering they can't dock, I'd think it'd be a challenge but they are killable. 1) You have to kill the POS where they park it or 2) Probe down the pilot after it's logged off aggressed and jump a Dread fleet in with some Neut Domi's in case the pilot attempts to log back in. There you go, problem solved.

Thread fails. Whine fails.


Both your 'solutions' would never work in the actual game:

1. Assuming a MS is in a POS, killing the POS to get at the MS would simply take too long. The MS pilot would have warped out of the POS to a SS and cynoed out of the system long before the POS was in danger of falling.

2. Your example solution requires the pilot to log off aggressed. Any PvP pilot worth his salt will wait out the aggression timer before logging off. The only exception would be a client crash. The second part of your solution (fleet of nos domis/dreads) requires a huge investment of isk/logistics, far beyond what populations in low-sec could field. Lastly, such a fleet would require an afk MS pilot or some mind boggling good luck to get itself into a position where they could neut tackle a MS that it crosses over into the absurd.

So in the end, your 'solution' is hoping the MS pilot logs/crashes aggressed coupled with LUCK that a fleet of neut domis and dreads are in that system at that right moment to probe out and kill it. Rolling Eyes

There is a reason why The Establishment's mothership wasn't killed until it was in 0.0 space.


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