| Author |
Topic |
Markus Aurelian |
Posted - 2007.08.25 21:23:00 - [ 31]
|
TigerWoman
Amarr
The Circle
Blade. |
Posted - 2007.08.25 22:28:00 - [ 32]
immune to e-war = bad
but on the other hand a ship which is quite expensive should be tough.
what just came to my mind:
-special capital warp jammers which can only be fitted on bs or maybee dictors (since dictors are made to keep ships at the spot they are) theese device needs to have very high fitting requs of course to make it a sacrifice on gank/tank/speed to fit them. maybee give the capital disruptors a strenght of 1 point and the moms a strength of 3-5 points so you need 4-6 bs in "capital disrupt setups" to keep it in grid.
the capital disruptors fitting requs should be so high that you cannot fit a decent tank oc. so the capital pilot can spot them and kill them in a reasonable time. ramge could even be within officer smartbomb range.
this way you will need a bunch of guys in dedicated setups (and expensive btw) to get a mom down in lowsec.
beeing invincible is never good. hard to kill okay, but a mom in lowsec is so goddam hard to kill you arent even able to kill it with an overwhelming power since it can warp of anytime. of course you could try to bring enough bs which will alphastrike kill it, but that wont be allowd by the mighte desynch and or node..... |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.25 22:48:00 - [ 33]
 Originally by: Markus Aurelian
so if i spent 30 billion isk on officer mods for my abaddon it should be invincible? ISK spent is never justification for an i-win button. just because someone is rich does not mean they deserve an unkillable ship FFS
Don't make a bad comparison and roll your eyes. Isk spent is very well a justification for superiority. You spend 30k you get a frigate, you spend 70 bil you get a titan. Thats absolutely ok and thats natural: you spend 100 $ you get a rubber dinghy with a riffle, you spend multiple billion $ and you get an aircraft carrier with a bigger firepower than the entire fleet of iraq. You comparison with the apoc is not realistc, because the prices of the modules do not represent their real value but are so high due extreme rarity. It's like saying "my state raven costs 80bil, i want it to have the same performance like a titan". So in fact you can't fit a battelship for a real (effective) value of 30bil. It's risk vs reward. And if someone risks 30 bil (not based on fictional prices ... btw i can sell you a module for 20000 bil, does not mean that this it's real value), the reward should be a better chance to survive than a 1-2 bil carrier. Simply kill the carrier's fighers and you do already more damage than a battelship is worth (fighters = around 18 mil each, if you shoot 10 of them, and they are not insured like your battelship) and then it sits there like rock of veldspar, fine. It can't even dock at a station in lowsec and it's not absolute immune, there are strategies to kill it, it's just quite hard and that what it should be. |
PauZotoh Zhaan
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.08.25 23:01:00 - [ 34]
and its possible to kill MS in low sec if you know how, if you say you have 20dreads and you say you cant kill MS then you suck m8, too be honest to kill ms you dont need that much or any dreads, that shows you dont have clue how to kill ms.
So stop whining about MS in low secs.
If MS cant enter low sec that means all logistic based on them will be destroyed, no more hauling. Yes MS are very good for that too. not only pirating. |
Markus Aurelian |
Posted - 2007.08.25 23:16:00 - [ 35]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Markus Aurelian
so if i spent 30 billion isk on officer mods for my abaddon it should be invincible? ISK spent is never justification for an i-win button. just because someone is rich does not mean they deserve an unkillable ship FFS
Don't make a bad comparison and roll your eyes. Isk spent is very well a justification for superiority.
You spend 30k you get a frigate, you spend 70 bil you get a titan.
Thats absolutely ok and thats natural: you spend 100 $ you get a rubber dinghy with a riffle, you spend multiple billion $ and you get an aircraft carrier with a bigger firepower than the entire fleet of iraq.
You comparison with the apoc is not realistc, because the prices of the modules do not represent their real value but are so high due extreme rarity. It's like saying "my state raven costs 80bil, i want it to have the same performance like a titan". So in fact you can't fit a battelship for a real (effective) value of 30bil.
It's risk vs reward. And if someone risks 30 bil (not based on fictional prices ... btw i can sell you a module for 20000 bil, does not mean that this it's real value), the reward should be a better chance to survive than a 1-2 bil carrier.
Simply kill the carrier's fighers and you do already more damage than a battelship is worth (fighters = around 18 mil each, if you shoot 10 of them, and they are not insured like your battelship) and then it sits there like rock of veldspar, fine. It can't even dock at a station in lowsec and it's not absolute immune, there are strategies to kill it, it's just quite hard and that what it should be.
risk vs reward is what makes MS in lowsec imbalanced. MS pilots risk very very little in the way of asset loss, and gain a fair amount of kills/loot/etc. how many times has a MS been killed in lowsec? Moms are tough to kill. they can field impressive tanks and arent short on the damage dealing. ISK = immunity is not a way to balance gameplay, especially with the playerbase continually growing wealthier and more and more Moms coming into EVE. |
Highpriest Aden |
Posted - 2007.08.26 00:13:00 - [ 36]
I dont think I'm whining!!
ofc you can kill a ms with less than 20 dreads, but imagen a MS on a gate using faction smarties. the shield recharge rate is prolly working out for whatever the sentry guns is dealing it, so no need to use any cap whatsoever. If a pirate or someone else smell a trap, they are poof, 10 jumps away in a instant. even if they get confrontet by a massive firepower, they can sit there laughing a lil while, and then poof.
As for the logistic, a ordenary carrier can do the same. not in the same m3 ofc. but it just takes a little longer to move the same ammoth of m3, so that is NOT a valid reason for letting it stay in empire.
Just becos it expensive, dosent mean that it's a I-Win-Ship. honestly, I have never seen a ms getting blown into peices without the use of interdictors. ofc if the pilot is agroed and logs off and get killed within the agro timer. But that's the only way I can come to think off..
If people have construktive critisem or ideas to kill a ms in empire, please let me know.
Better ideas than nanno faction amarr battleships. good idea tho, but not a realistic way :D |
NoNah |
Posted - 2007.08.26 01:31:00 - [ 37]
Two alternatives:
Replace the MS-ew-immunity with the ability to fit a module - much like the Triage module - but only usable in 0.0 and remove the sensor changes, fuel costs and velocity issues.(This includes a possible alter of the triage module which in current state is somewhat useless, or giving the ship a bonus for triage modules).
Make the MS only completely EW-immune in 0.0(should be harder to implent). They should still have high attributes in sensor strength, and targetting range(Yes, resolution would be hit by RSDs however can also be countered easily by allies, and tbh, they should still have some effect). They could even be awarded with a blockade-runner like bonus(heck even one that adapts after the security level( 0.4 - +1 warp strength, 0.3 +2, 0.2 +3,0.1 +4, 0.0 - immune). |
Markus Aurelian |
Posted - 2007.08.26 02:19:00 - [ 38]
Originally by: NoNah
Two alternatives:
Replace the MS-ew-immunity with the ability to fit a module - much like the Triage module - but only usable in 0.0 and remove the sensor changes, fuel costs and velocity issues.(This includes a possible alter of the triage module which in current state is somewhat useless, or giving the ship a bonus for triage modules).
Make the MS only completely EW-immune in 0.0(should be harder to implent). They should still have high attributes in sensor strength, and targetting range(Yes, resolution would be hit by RSDs however can also be countered easily by allies, and tbh, they should still have some effect). They could even be awarded with a blockade-runner like bonus(heck even one that adapts after the security level( 0.4 - +1 warp strength, 0.3 +2, 0.2 +3,0.1 +4, 0.0 - immune).
i like the scaling sec status idea, but it would probably have to be a bit more than that to prevent ppl from whining that its too easy. mabe give a Mom the benefit of a full rack of wcs or something. |
Vicious Phoenix |
Posted - 2007.08.26 03:10:00 - [ 39]
Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 26/08/2007 03:10:12 Originally by: PauZotoh Zhaan
and its possible to kill MS in low sec if you know how, if you say you have 20dreads and you say you cant kill MS then you suck m8, too be honest to kill ms you dont need that much or any dreads, that shows you dont have clue how to kill ms.
So stop whining about MS in low secs.
If MS cant enter low sec that means all logistic based on them will be destroyed, no more hauling. Yes MS are very good for that too. not only pirating.
20 blaster moros wouldn't even have time to lock the mom before it jumped, how are they to kill it then exactly? (keeping in mind there is no way to tackle it in lowsec) |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries |
Posted - 2007.08.26 05:44:00 - [ 40]
Warp 500 frigates from various locations at 0 onto the ms, have it smartbomb them, and have the wrecks bump it. Then, after a week of crying, CCP will change it so you can fly through wrecks. |
Markus Aurelian |
Posted - 2007.08.26 05:46:00 - [ 41]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Warp 500 frigates from various locations at 0 onto the ms, have it smartbomb them, and have the wrecks bump it. Then, after a week of crying, CCP will change it so you can fly through wrecks.
its already being changed, its in the patch notes. |
Scott Ryder
Amarr
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 11:23:00 - [ 42]
Edited by: Scott Ryder on 26/08/2007 11:24:09 Originally by: Sarah Benthwell
The only way i've come up with killing a ms pilot in lowsec is... jump 10 nano neut bhaals in, instagib his cap below 70%(need math genius here). Bump the **** out of him and keep jumping in more nanobhaals. Cyno in dread fleet with nanonaglafars (lol). Then hope you can kill him in time before he can get a lucky warp off. (Also may need some nanomachs, as 1 with likely die quick)
Youre not a genius are you? Only you and Scius would engage motherships in factionships. There are more price effecient ways of doing it. Faction battleships arent really the sulution here :) |
Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 12:31:00 - [ 43]
"Even if my corp had 20 dreads, and wantet to pop it, we couldent keep the ms down.. it would just laugh, wait alittle, and jump out."
Not if you had some BS with neutralizers and were fighting it solo. As I understand it capital ships need a certain amount of cap before they can jump. If you are fighting a mothership that has been camping a system with a pvp fit, it probably doesn't have a cap fit.
It's possible to kill it in low sec. It just requires more ships doing more things (ships to bump it, ships to neut the cap, and others to damage it).
Of course if the mothership has help (which it probably will) you'll need to bring more ships to deal with that help too. But if you had 20 dreads + support all bearing down on it, I don't think it would take TOO long to murder the mothership...granted I haven't taken part in a fight vs a mothership yet so I have no idea how long it would take. |
Xequecal |
Posted - 2007.08.26 14:27:00 - [ 44]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
"Even if my corp had 20 dreads, and wantet to pop it, we couldent keep the ms down.. it would just laugh, wait alittle, and jump out."
Not if you had some BS with neutralizers and were fighting it solo. As I understand it capital ships need a certain amount of cap before they can jump. If you are fighting a mothership that has been camping a system with a pvp fit, it probably doesn't have a cap fit.
It's possible to kill it in low sec. It just requires more ships doing more things (ships to bump it, ships to neut the cap, and others to damage it).
Of course if the mothership has help (which it probably will) you'll need to bring more ships to deal with that help too. But if you had 20 dreads + support all bearing down on it, I don't think it would take TOO long to murder the mothership...granted I haven't taken part in a fight vs a mothership yet so I have no idea how long it would take.
The mothership can WARP away. Warp disruptors don't work on motherships, and you can't place dictor bubbles in low-sec. |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 14:34:00 - [ 45]
The frigate spam so it gets surrounded by wrecks will not work very soon, because it's being fixed, so please stop listing that as a strategy ;)
Anyway, it'd take both being bumped a whole lot (to prevent it from warping), killing its cap in a very short time frame (to prevent it from jumping), and of course, firepower to kill it. One mistake during the killing means it's going to be warping off / jumping off. Oh, yes, as soon as he sees local swell, he can just jump off / warp off, and a support fleet is very likely to at least keep you from bumping him, so he can warp off.
Has one been killed in combat in low-sec, yet? |
WildSide
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate. |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:00:00 - [ 46]
if u ask any alliance...what u prefer, 30 dreads or 1 mothership. about everyone would say 30 dreads. Guess why...
A mom is almost like a 30x price tag carrier with twice amotuh of drones , but as dead as any carrier in a dictor bubble. (this is in 0.0)
In low sec its much less vunerable, however...I think most low sec ms setups is setup for fairly easy tank, and with meds slots filled of officer sensorboosters, scrams and maybe even officer webs.
If ure able to bump it...and after some time....many ms pilot get slow of been in low sec, maybe even forgetting to have a cyno alt rdy.
all u need to do is bump it with a couple of ships, aswell as neutralisator it, and jump in a fleet crossing ure fingers he gonna not be able to warp efore the fleet arrives. the second the fleet arrives and cynos goes up cynoing dreads and carriers. I bet the mom pilot is so damn desynced and lagget, he gonna be sitting here like a noob frig agains a t2 cruiser. |
Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:02:00 - [ 47]
Originally by: Xequecal
The mothership can WARP away. Warp disruptors don't work on motherships, and you can't place dictor bubbles in low-sec.
You quoted my whole passage and then completely ignored the part where I said to keep bumping it with ships. Unless motherships are immune to bumps as well and it's just not listed in the description? |
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:26:00 - [ 48]
Originally by: PMolkenthin
True, but not many people have a mothership do they?
I bet there's 40-50 MS in the game, and what, 10 titans? How many MS will there be in a year? Two years? Remember when a Dread was a sight to see like a MS is right now? |
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:26:00 - [ 49]
Originally by: T'X
Same reason why high levels camp other people in other games. They're bored and want some fun. Nothing more satisfying that popping noobs in lowsec in a mothership ^^
Then again, you get popped by a ship that takes a minute to lock ;)
Officer smartbombs don't need a lock.  |
Alcatraz Jones |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:27:00 - [ 50]
Allow interdictor bubbles in low sec. That will teach those pesky pirates !  |
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:28:00 - [ 51]
The only way you can possibly kill a MS in lowsec is to surround it with wrecks/corpses and neutralize its cap to a certain point and keep it there. Wrecks/corpses will keep it from being able to align for warp, and neutralized cap to not alow jumping. Or you can always hope for a desync.  |
Carin K
Minmatar
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:31:00 - [ 52]
Originally by: T'X
Then again, you get popped by a ship that takes a minute to lock ;)
Ha, you have personal experience of lots of MS, take a Bob hel for example piloted by John Roe. Ive heard stories of him locking a raven that has initiated warp already and scramming it before it can get out, bringing it out of warp. Nerf officer sensor boosters :) |
Carin K
Minmatar
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:34:00 - [ 53]
Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis
The only way you can possibly kill a MS in lowsec is to surround it with wrecks/corpses and neutralize its cap to a certain point and keep it there.
Wrecks/corpses will keep it from being able to align for warp, and neutralized cap to not alow jumping.
Or you can always hope for a desync.
wrecks and corpses and i think cans also will not stop u from aligning after this next patch, ull just coast through them |
Ather Ialeas
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:37:00 - [ 54]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Highpriest Aden
I see 2 motherships in a .4 system nighboursystem to nonni. I have nothing against piracy, hence it's a part of the game, and have always been. What I dont understand is why a MS "that cant be scrambeld" can enter a lowsec system?
Even if my corp had 20 dreads, and wantet to pop it, we couldent keep the ms down.. it would just laugh, wait alittle, and jump out.
the only way to kill it is to get it agroed,and then take away it's cap, jump in the firepower and pop it. Wish us good luck!
It should be nerfed. If it was ordenary carriers they were sitting in, kool. we could assemble a force, and do some PVP'ing, but no way against a MS!
Titans and motherships I belive should be a 0.0 thingie, since they can only be build outthere. I look forward to the next patch!
You don't have to kill it, you can hurt it by killing it's fighers aswell, you know they are expensive
24 Ogre I:s are enough to kill just about anything, no need for fighters. Just ask Miz. |
The End
Amarr
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent |
Posted - 2007.08.26 17:16:00 - [ 55]
MOMs should cost 100bil +, maybe more, and Titans should cost 250bil+
So, this would reduce the amount of people having them and thus the amount of "invincible gate camps" in low sec. However, MOMS/Titans are expensive supercaps which should have special privileges.
A mom can be killed in low sec on a jump-in, using neuts and proper bumping tactics. Also, you dont have to kill it to defeat it. Jump in your capital fleet and watch the MOM vanish, which opens up the gate and takes care of so-called "invincible" MOM.
Remember, you're asking that a MOM be vulnerable like a carrier (i.e.- a few damps and some bs), which is absolute bull****. A mom can be "defeated", but perhaps not killed and that is good enough. |
Reto
The Last Resort
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:22:00 - [ 56]
its freakin strange but i know some dedicated pilots who would pay u an enourmous sum for the info and a warpin spot on one of those motherships. |
SchirmerN
Amarr
x13
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:17:00 - [ 57]
Originally by: PauZotoh Zhaan
and its possible to kill MS in low sec if you know how, if you say you have 20dreads and you say you cant kill MS then you suck m8, too be honest to kill ms you dont need that much or any dreads, that shows you dont have clue how to kill ms.
So stop whining about MS in low secs.
|
aquontium
Gallente
Fourth Circle
|
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:59:00 - [ 58]
you jump out, not warp out!
indeed, sittin ready to jump on a gate, second the first neut hits your camp you launch cyno and jump. not hard when like miz you have 23 ogre's and 2 cyno accounts. |
Vrognem
Altruism.
Malice. |
Posted - 2007.08.26 22:27:00 - [ 59]
Originally by: Highpriest Aden
the shield recharge rate is prolly working out for whatever the sentry guns is dealing it, so no need to use any cap whatsoever. If a pirate or someone else smell a trap, they are poof, 10 jumps away in a instant. even if they get confrontet by a massive firepower, they can sit there laughing a lil while, and then poof.
As for the logistic, a ordenary carrier can do the same. not in the same m3 ofc. but it just takes a little longer to move the same ammoth of m3, so that is NOT a valid reason for letting it stay in empire.
If a BS can tank sentries, then a MOM obviously can... Ever tried moving 2 BS with mods etc at the same time in a carrier? Doesn't seem to work does it. MOM is worth the outlay and should have its benefits. 30 bill = a lot of trouble to stop, but it can be done IF YOU KNOW HOW. Learn2play and quit whining about it, stop asking for a nerf when you simply need to use your brain. Don't always take the easy way out. |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries |
Posted - 2007.08.26 22:33:00 - [ 60]
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