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blankseplocked Is alliance level combat fun for you?
 
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Zombie Network
Perkone
Posted - 2007.08.25 14:00:00 - [31]
 

I enjoy Alliance combat because you can make a tangible differance to the game, when you defeat you enemies you drive them from their homes, force them back to NPC 0.0/Empire and often make their alliance disband (look at LV/D2 for good examples of this), and you also risk having the same being done to you. It is a high stakes game where the outcome of a war makes a big differance to you and your alliance, giving a massive sense of acheivement or loss that I have never seen in any other game.

That said, what you have to do to acheive this sucks. Spending hours upon hours killing POS and requireing superior numbers (in almost every case) to do so is really boring.

I would like to see a lot (and I mean a LOT) more intermediary strategic objectives that can be acheived with a gang of 30-50 pilots with a mixed fleet setup (not 50 BS) in a reasonable amount of time (20-30 minutes). Instead of a 200 person fleet, you would have 4-5 wings (sup fleet system) working independantly to acheive muliple strategic goals simultaniously over multiple systems at once. A large 200 pilot fleet could defend a single objective easily, at the cost of losing 2-3 other objectives at the same time making the 'blob' relatively ineffective short of engaging another 'blob' of equal size.

Raw numbers will still have the advantage, and they should, but it gives the oppertunity for a numerically challenged opponent to defend by engaging the smaller groups of enemies seperately using superior skill and tactics. Lots more skirmishes around 50 on 50, less sitting around waiting for 200 people to join gang before you are capable for launching an assult/defense, and less of a reliance on the 'superblob' to win the day without even having a fight.

Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.08.25 14:01:00 - [32]
 

The answer is simple, really.

Tie sovereingty only to stations. Fleets defend stations from other fleets, stations have reasonable strontium reserves to force a time of engagement, a single takedown op rather than killing dozens of POSes and not shooting a single player ship for hours. POSes go back to their previous industrial-focused uses, shipyards, factories, mining centers, the works.

Problem solved on the whole in my mind.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2007.08.25 14:17:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/08/2007 14:17:28



Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.08.25 14:43:00 - [34]
 

I actually used to much prefer the days of station ping-pong, before 'sovereignty' was introduced.

I mean, just what is 'sovereignty'? How does this magical thing allow your towers to use less fuel? Or make deployment of certain structures possible? Or grant an outpost invulnerability? Does that really make any sense whatsoever from a background perspective?....

...which leads onto the next question, do we really need the 'sovereignty' mechanic at all?

From my experience, the fun has dimimshed and the lag increased, since this mechanic got more and more entwined in alliance warfare.

Jenna Shame
Posted - 2007.08.25 17:47:00 - [35]
 

Well its pretty clear that no one enjoys alliance warfare at this juncture.

CCP's crown jewel, the one thing eve can truly offer that no other MMO comes close to, is boring.

My RL issues are keeping me mostly out of game, but I find I just don't miss it.

I don't see CCP changing direction though, shame.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2007.08.25 18:30:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Vivian Azure on 25/08/2007 18:33:33
First off, yes I'm an alt, as I'm not allowed to post with my main.

Alliance warfare is no fun at all, when it comes to claiming space. It's just a question of numbers, rather then skill or experience.
So it's more fun to roam around in gangs of around 10 pilots, killing everything on the side of the street until you get killed yourself by a big blob, rather then loosing 200 ships in one big, lagged out fight.

Reduce the real big fights to station-systems only. No POS-spamming-sovereignity-system and all this crap.
If you own the station-system, you gain constellation sovereignity, plain simple. So you only have to defend that one system, where you can have enough ressources, to undock all the time in a brand new ship.

All POSs would reduced to strategic or industrial targets, but the POSs in the station-system.
That would make it easier for small alliances to simply deploy a station somewhere in a free constellation and there they go.

I think this would encourage more raoming gangs and small gang-warfare, as you simply can give the others a hard time to enjoy their claimed space, rather then shooting their POSs for weeks.

It would also encourage smaller groups to simply deploy a POS somewhere trying to make money with it, therefor lowering the price-tag for POSs.

But I'll never see this I believe.

The only thing we'll see is more and more frustrated people trying to activate a module after jumping into a grid with 200+ ships.

So long, fly safe everyone.

"edited for spelling"

Bentula
Posted - 2007.08.25 18:43:00 - [37]
 

I hardly play my main anymore due to the way alliance warfare works atm. The capital pilotes get at least some action, even if shooting pos is more like mining than pvp, but the socalled supportfleet just sits around twiddling their thumbs... I spent whole weekends like that, and honestly im sick of it.

You spend whatnot in time to train all kinds of nifty t2 ships and then you get to fly a grand total of 1 ship: fleetbs. Btw, anyone noticed that 20 man gangs dont even work anymore? You fly around with with 20 peeps and whambam 12 carriers drop on you assoon as you find some targets. Sure you get easily away from that, but you might aswell forget any pvp in that region for the time being or call on the blob Mad.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.08.26 12:58:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Bentula
I hardly play my main anymore due to the way alliance warfare works atm. The capital pilotes get at least some action, even if shooting pos is more like mining than pvp, but the socalled supportfleet just sits around twiddling their thumbs... I spent whole weekends like that, and honestly im sick of it.

You spend whatnot in time to train all kinds of nifty t2 ships and then you get to fly a grand total of 1 ship: fleetbs. Btw, anyone noticed that 20 man gangs dont even work anymore? You fly around with with 20 peeps and whambam 12 carriers drop on you assoon as you find some targets. Sure you get easily away from that, but you might aswell forget any pvp in that region for the time being or call on the blob Mad.
Why do you need 20 people to 'find some targets'?...

Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2007.08.26 13:13:00 - [39]
 

Fleet fights are not really fun...the first few times it's one of those "wow, look at all these people! This is gonna be sweet! moments if you even feel wowed the third or fourth time that is. I don't find them entertaining at all. I'm more likely to hop in a vagabond and go murder my enemies ratting ships than participating in fleet fights.

I do my job in my own way and try to enjoy the game. Sitting around for an hour waiting for 20+ people to get their stupid ships together in the same system, and then wait for 1 guy to jump ahead and say "all clear" about 30 times to get to X destination HOPING we run into an enemy group that WILL engage us or that we can force to engage us, is just flat out boring. I already sit on teamspeak talking to people...I don't need to sit on teamspeak being told what to do for about 3-4 hours long while we chit-chat in between orders.

Small gang combat is always much better in EVE than fleet crap in my opinion. It's less militaristic...less restrictive...more entertaining because people will actually engage you. Ehhhh I should probably elaborate on some things but I'm just going to cut this short right here.

Awox
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Posted - 2007.08.26 13:55:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Or: let's just have a couple more regions of NPC 0.0 space, with 4 or 5 entry points each instead of 1 or 2. No sovereignty there, so no POS spamming. Lots of scope for small alliances and corps to get a foothold into 0.0 and enjoy some small gang pew-pew.


This. EVE is getting too small.

In regards to OP. I have engaged in many great wars and I have not enjoyed them as much as I have any other thing I could do in EVE.

I am of the opinion that most "PvPers" in 0.0 are just puppets. The only people they serve are the leaders of their alliance. But whatever, if they want a second job.. that's their business. Laughing

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.08.26 14:22:00 - [41]
 

I went on a PvP op in my alliance around 3 to 4 weeks ago.
We killed a Cerberus, a shuttle and an interceptor plus their pods.
After 6 hours of piloting an interdictor my orders were stay on gate bubble if someone comes in.
This was labled a "good op" for reasons I am quite confused about given we were a 200 man gang that managed to kill 3 ships and pods in 6 hours.
Alliance PvP is the grind - in mining one can see their money increasing and create plans to make more money - alliance PvP as a Flycatcher pilot I found to be the single most boring part of my entire Eve experience.
And I concur with the suggestion for a psycologist for eves content division - more HP = bring more guns in all FC books. I wonder if POS warfare could be compared to the trenches of WW1 - attrition. The dreads are the tanks but the trenches still remain.
Have studied neither WW1 nor participated in dreads btw, just what I picked up over the years.

Mikelio Raijan
Celtic Anarchy
Posted - 2007.08.26 14:33:00 - [42]
 

WTB: EvE Classic -The days before the POS's and capships-

You newer players don't know the amazing game you missed. Sad

Doctor Fruitloop
Posted - 2007.08.26 14:36:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Mikelio Raijan
WTB: EvE Classic -The days before the POS's and capships-

You newer players don't know the amazing game you missed. Sad


You can probably find that if you look around hard enough.
I read somewheres about pirate servers running for WoW so Eve isn't too much a stretch of the imagination.

Shaktipat
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:13:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Kirjava
I went on a PvP op in my alliance around 3 to 4 weeks ago.
We killed a Cerberus, a shuttle and an interceptor plus their pods.
After 6 hours of piloting an interdictor my orders were stay on gate bubble if someone comes in.
This was labled a "good op" for reasons I am quite confused about given we were a 200 man gang that managed to kill 3 ships and pods in 6 hours.
Alliance PvP is the grind - in mining one can see their money increasing and create plans to make more money - alliance PvP as a Flycatcher pilot I found to be the single most boring part of my entire Eve experience.
And I concur with the suggestion for a psycologist for eves content division - more HP = bring more guns in all FC books. I wonder if POS warfare could be compared to the trenches of WW1 - attrition. The dreads are the tanks but the trenches still remain.
Have studied neither WW1 nor participated in dreads btw, just what I picked up over the years.


This sums up pvp in EVE. Unless your in an elite pirate corp or have 20mill sp that u can be part of the better pvp corps, pvp is as much of a grind and hard to find fun fights.

When my alliance is gate camping with 3 capitols and loads of BS's for the sake of one elite AF you have to wonder. And when they did not get the kill they felt like they missed out on pvp.....Shocked

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.08.26 15:36:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Price Watcher
Large gangs are no fun at all.

1. Sound off.

2. Turret effects off.

3. All other effects off.

4. Zoom out until you can't see your own ship or anyone else's ship.

5. Fight, at a frame rate of 1/2 frames per second.

6. Desync. Die a useless death.

Yep, Alliance fighting is about as much fun as a spreadsheet calculation.


Quoted for truth. Alliance warfare makes your skills (both your SP and your RL ingenuity) redundant. Victory is unsatisfying, defeat is no big deal since there was little else you could have done better. I don't want to be just another gun on the ship that is the blob.

...and so I quit 0.0 warfare until such a time as it interests me again. I'll turn up if my alliance needs me, but I certainly don't do it for fun.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.08.26 16:47:00 - [46]
 

If they changed Starbases to This, then completely removed 'sovereignty' except for the little flag on the map showing who owns the station (nothing more than station name: owning corporation/alliance), then maybe, just maybe, we could get back to the point when things were fun...

Perhaps allow the anchoring of a handful of turret batteries around stations/outposts, but leave it at that. Then:

If you want to capture the station, great
Arrow Shoot it up as we used to pre-Exodus (kick down front door, or guerrilla warfare against poorly defended systems)

If you want to hold the station,
Arrow Better not over-stretch yourself, so you don't have enough pilots around to defend your stations.
Arrow Invest in a few stationary defences to slow the enemy down.

At the same time you can still:

Arrow Cause economic damage through knocking out starbases if you so choose
Arrow Raid systems to damage station services
Arrow Build whatever the heck you like, where you like (starbase bits)

Holding territory then comes down to your pilots (plus the few anchorable batteries round your station), not POS's, not strontium timing. There is no magical 'sovereignty' making things invulnerable, or only allowing certain structures to be placed in system, or requiring endless 'POS bashing' Dreadnought-fests at moons, or rather crucially, lame POS spamming to claim territory.

Starbases themselves become the industrial platform/hanger array/moon mining bases/capital shipyards they should be, not 'magical' devices that control the system.

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.26 17:44:00 - [47]
 

There are some very well thought out, valid criticisms of the alliance warfare experience here.

I'd really like to hear CCP's rationalization for why these things are "fun".

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.08.26 17:53:00 - [48]
 

Well re make this post on development forum and lets keep pressure. POlite, beign rude leads to nothing. Btu pressure. We pay them to give us a fun game, its their work and they need to do it better right now

Imperius Blackheart
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.08.26 18:04:00 - [49]
 


Meh, I love alliance level warfare, its fun.


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2007.08.26 19:16:00 - [50]
 

fleet battles..alliance warfare..its a friggin blast.

SchirmerN
Amarr
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.26 19:26:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Well re make this post on development forum and lets keep pressure. POlite, beign rude leads to nothing. Btu pressure. We pay them to give us a fun game, its their work and they need to do it better right now


ConfusedNeutral

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.08.26 19:53:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
fleet battles..alliance warfare..its a friggin blast.

yeap usually from a titan DD or desynced ships blowing up :P

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:01:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Or: let's just have a couple more regions of NPC 0.0 space, with 4 or 5 entry points each instead of 1 or 2. No sovereignty there, so no POS spamming. Lots of scope for small alliances and corps to get a foothold into 0.0 and enjoy some small gang pew-pew.

I have no idea what the OP said but this reply right under the wall of text is made of Epic Win.. Cool

Doctor Fruitloop
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:32:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Doctor Fruitloop on 26/08/2007 20:32:27
Originally by:
Kagura NikonIf brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough


Ironic thats your sig as your on the anti-blob camp Razz

David Devant
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2007.08.26 20:42:00 - [55]
 

List of things in eve that are not fun: (with notes of which are caused by the sovreignty system)

Mining
Ice Mining (caused by sov)
Killing POS (caused by sov)
Killing POS guns/mods (caused by sov)
Killing station services (caused by sov)
Repping pos (caused by sov)
Repping pos guns (caused by sov)
Repping station services (caused by sov)
Fueling pos (caused by sov)
Carrier fuel runs (caused by sov)


Basically the whole system is boring. Even the changes to make it less boring are also boring. Was supposed to bring squad warfare back...but it takes 100 people 2 hours to kill a station service. As if your 15 man roaming gang is going to sit half a day doing that. Furthermore many alliances just outblob their enemies to keep capitals safe, so the goal in so many ops is NOT TO GET A FIGHT. Thats completely wrong. The entire sov system needs to be reworked so that it benefits both sides to seek a fight rather than avoid one, and minimize the time people spend doing boring tasks.

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.08.26 21:47:00 - [56]
 

It brings something called "morale" factor to the commanders of this gargantuan Risk game.
If you say "we give you xyz and this is needed for the good of the alliance/community" essentialy use emotional blackmain and use you as fodder in some corps - why i left my last corp a year back.

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.08.27 02:50:00 - [57]
 

remove the lag ccp. That will shut us up fairly...


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