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Moraguth
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:10:00 - [691]
 

Originally by: Dave PSI
Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Logan Williams
Originally by: Kirex
wtf?! You're taking down the trade forums because you think contracts will suffice? Have you devs ever USED the contracts system?


Yes, they live out in Jove space and play reindeer games instead of worry about how to keep customers. Read COAD. /sarcasm


Have you used it? No, seriously. Have you tried? It's easy and effective once you set your filters in a productive way.

Try these two things, and you'll be amazed at how much easier it will be for you.
1: Sort Page By > Simple View.
2: When you say get contracts, click on the Price colum to sort by it. It is amazing how many people thing that they can put a WTB order up for 100K for a BS and think that it'll work.


The Contract system works ok for the cheap stuff like Faction hardener rare Implants and stuff you could also buy in the market.

But it totally sucks when it comes to more expensive items like T2 BPOs and rare Officer Mods.
There is no sniper rule and the auction system doesn't show the time left (only less than a day and less than an hour which really sucks). Also there is no focus on these items because you have search them active, on the forum you find them while reading the first few pages (normally there are not that many crap T1 stuff auctions like in the contract system).

And the most important point is, when you think the contract system is soo perfect, fine simply use it. But why the hell force everybody else who obviously doesn't is your opinion to use it ???

Perhaps you didn't regognized it CCP, but the Trade-Forum is a big Part of the game for many of us.
If you want to reduce traffic, close COAD (or only allow alliance leaders posting rights). Nobody needs to read that trolling, and its getting worth and worther every day there.


Dave, you have very good points. The one I'm going to focus on is the "why make everyone else use the contracts..."

I don't want to use the forums. It's slower than contracts for me. I can't find what I want as easily. I have to make posts and get more information half the time. .... When I view a contract, everything I need to know is right there in a simple, effective screen.

Why make me use the forums to get the "really good deals"?

Keep the game IN the game, not on a web forum.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:10:00 - [692]
 

WTB 20 Run, 20 ME, 0 PE Raven BPC

Nope, can't do that.

Dave PSI
Haendlergilde
Gilde Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:11:00 - [693]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

Update: A alternative to the closed EVE-Online trade forums has been opened by Chribba and can be found on his EVE-Live website in the forum section.


Said but true, its not a real alternative to the trade forum. Only the Eve forum combines the ingame char with a forum account no other forum could provide this. If u bid here, your name stands for your bid, it increase the trust in the auction and is the main reason why it runs so smooth and the sell forum is so heavily used.

If you want to implement it in the game, simply improve the sucking eve web browser and allow to open the forum with it (btw. out of game usage also necessary btw).

Katharina Gorbacheva
Amarr
Soviet Star Federation
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:12:00 - [694]
 

Originally by: Gaunty
I haven't gone through every post in this topic so apologies if its covered but how can people buy Supercapitals with no sell order forum? Didn't think they could be put on contract.


There's no need to be able to buy/sell them. They can't be docked for a reason, if you want one go build it yourself. Otherwise stick with a carrier.

Moraguth
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:14:00 - [695]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Burnstein
ShockedShockedShocked

I cannot for the life of me understand that "feature".

First of all, the forums of the game are a good place to meet new people and start productive and constructive trade. The contract system, as it is, can take almost anything at it, but lack in what is really important in a MMORPG : player interaction.

I honestly think many players here rightfully pointed out that CCP is doing a catastrophic error. I seldom write in the forums but I do read them, particularly the sell orders one. My opinion too is that CCP is making a big mistake.

CCP, please, don't touch our Forums....or at least propose a viable alternative that involve player interaction.

ShockedShockedShocked

My 2 cent

Ophelia Burnstein alias Ophy


Ophelia, you and Nathomos make good points. You can't beat the player interaction on the forums, and you can't haggle on an item exchange contract.

I've had a little luck in eve-mailing a person who has an auction going, that has 0 bids, and is over prices and told them I'd buy it from them, but we had to negotiate. Then their contract would end and sometimes they'd mail me back and then we could haggle over price.

Meh, I guess that's arguement number 2 that I can't really defeat (at least in my mind... most people here will probably say all my arguements have been defeated). The only other was for things like motherships that can't be sold/contracted in game right now.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:14:00 - [696]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 22/08/2007 00:16:05
Originally by: Moraguth
Ummm... since most everyone besides me has a billion alts, use one of them in the main contract regions


I trust CCP will bring the Power of 2 scheme back then to enable the multitude (majority) of eve subscribers who have but the one account and thus max 3 characters to get some more regional coverage :P

Now, try the detailed end timing of forum auctions versus the "less then one day" & "less then one hour" timings of contracts.

While you're at it, provide an argument please for the enjoyment of the subscribers who use the current forums for their main activities while they are in real life and unable to engage in virtual life directly for a multitude of various reasons.

:-)

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but how would you look up commercial history track records of sellers trying to build up an identity which relies to a very high degree, like all economics in full really, on trust.

There's a small subset of elements which are possible by means of the current contract system, some folks are more accustomed to it then others. Still the base synopsis is that a full turn towards the contract system without any further alternatives or mechanisms allowing for concepts of trust, identity and marketing ... is rather restrictive.
Courier contracts? Please. I can see Ryder Insterstellar Fuel services trying to make all contracts on the one main character because that is the one people know, and not the ton of freighter pilots which run the jobs. The list goes on.


And then, then there is the "out of the blue" element in all of this. It is an entirely different debate imo, but a very important one.

Angelina Achura
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:15:00 - [697]
 

Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Hellspawn01
I could say "YaY" if the current contract system would be abit more simple or at least better as the old escrow system but its not. After 4 years of trading (with crappy forum software) you shut it down with a stupid excuse. Why not just close down all of the forums so we dont have to read your stupid ideas that you come up with to screw up more than you promise to fix?! Honestly, it casts doubt on your credibility.

Or were you just to lazy to watch over the posts? Could the forum server not cut it with the load of new posts per hour? Was it to prevent scams? Why make a char sell forum (after 3 years of char selling!!) when the rest of the sales get closed?

Wrangler, you´re fired. Go back to hello kitty online.


Read above: contract are easier, more flexible, and less scamable than escrow. Escrow sucked balls. - could you imagine ONLY being able to see the last 1000 auctions on ebay? seriously? and don't even get me started with being able to limit to you, corp, alliance, current region, specific other region, all regions... the list goes on. Seriously.... go use the contract system a bit, quit living in the dark ages. Unless you're running windows 98 still, then I have no hope for you.


Would you give it a rest? We get it. You think closing the forums was a good idea. You don't need to make a post for every post that is made saying how many of us don't like this and don't think that contracts are all that easy to work with. The score is currently many - 1. You lose.

GOOD GAME!

raWill
Gallente
Total Comfort
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:16:00 - [698]
 

This is ...B U L L S H I T...

I have bought capitals, faction gear & many other random items from the sell orders site because I cannot afford the time to search these items out in a terrible, restrictive, laggy and clunky system that is the eve contracts & eve client.

Take this away from me & others and you take away my ability to buy and sell items when I am working, during downtime & not interested in logging on to raise my bids.

Give me only contracts to buy and sell and I will now suffer with downtime two fold because it is smack bang in the middle of my evening and even worse the extended down times for screwups.

I'm a paying customer for eve, I want you to continue to provide me the service that is the sell orders forum. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Grrrrrr...

Moraguth
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:16:00 - [699]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
WTB 20 Run, 20 ME, 0 PE Raven BPC

Nope, can't do that.


ARRrgggghhhhh!!! yeah... They do need to implement that part in the WTB section for blue prints. Add a couple option boxes that let you choose for BPO or BPC. Then, for ME PE and Runs (maybe even minimum me and pe).

But that needs to go in the features/ideas section, not here i suppose.

Thraxon
The Perfect Storm
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:18:00 - [700]
 

No more trading at work.

FTL :(

Francesca Dell'Agio
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:18:00 - [701]
 

Originally by: Angelina Achura
Would you give it a rest? We get it. You think closing the forums was a good idea. You don't need to make a post for every post that is made saying how many of us don't like this and don't think that contracts are all that easy to work with. The score is currently many - 1. You lose.

GOOD GAME!


He has a job to do here. Schools of though: debunking and repeating incessantly - both perceived to convert and calm down people.


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:20:00 - [702]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 22/08/2007 00:27:01
Well, when you think CCP can't think up any more stupid ideas, they usually do so... like this one....

Put simply, the ingame contract system is a big pile of ****E!!!

I'll list a few of the things that need to be fixed with the contract system. Other people have also done so....
  1. You can't search for a specific item type, it's either the whole group (including all the scams), or each specific variant of that type.
    In other words, searching for example for a faction/officer item thats both available and in your price range can take 10+ searches...
  2. It is not possible to filter out the multitudes of WTB scams....
  3. The part about having to park your character where an auction goes on for the duration. Well, people have said enough about that.... Suffice to say it's competing for stupidest game-feature of the century...
  4. The stupidity of having removed many often-traded items from the market and making them only able to use the (defective) contract system is annoying as hell.
    It means you can't see previous prices of the item, nor can you see amounts traded... In other words, it forces you to trade completely blind!
    All direct trades of standard items (including officer/faction) should be possible through the market. That would leave the contract system for package deals, courier contracts, or non-standard items (like BPC's, rigged ships etc.).
  5. And then of.c. there are all the things that can't be sold, or can't be searched through the contract system.

In short, you're taking away a USEFUL system, to try to force people to use an almost USELESS system.

Real bright move.... It'll definitely increase customer satisfaction Rolling Eyes

Make the contract system USEFUL, then people will be happy to move. I think the response in this thread proves most people are of the firm opinion it isn't....

Dave PSI
Haendlergilde
Gilde Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:25:00 - [703]
 

Edited by: Dave PSI on 22/08/2007 00:29:57
Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Dave PSI
Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Logan Williams
Originally by: Kirex
wtf?! You're taking down the trade forums because you think contracts will suffice? Have you devs ever USED the contracts system?


Yes, they live out in Jove space and play reindeer games instead of worry about how to keep customers. Read COAD. /sarcasm


Have you used it? No, seriously. Have you tried? It's easy and effective once you set your filters in a productive way.

Try these two things, and you'll be amazed at how much easier it will be for you.
1: Sort Page By > Simple View.
2: When you say get contracts, click on the Price colum to sort by it. It is amazing how many people thing that they can put a WTB order up for 100K for a BS and think that it'll work.


The Contract system works ok for the cheap stuff like Faction hardener rare Implants and stuff you could also buy in the market.

But it totally sucks when it comes to more expensive items like T2 BPOs and rare Officer Mods.
There is no sniper rule and the auction system doesn't show the time left (only less than a day and less than an hour which really sucks). Also there is no focus on these items because you have search them active, on the forum you find them while reading the first few pages (normally there are not that many crap T1 stuff auctions like in the contract system).

And the most important point is, when you think the contract system is soo perfect, fine simply use it. But why the hell force everybody else who obviously doesn't is your opinion to use it ???

Perhaps you didn't regognized it CCP, but the Trade-Forum is a big Part of the game for many of us.
If you want to reduce traffic, close COAD (or only allow alliance leaders posting rights). Nobody needs to read that trolling, and its getting worth and worther every day there.


Dave, you have very good points. The one I'm going to focus on is the "why make everyone else use the contracts..."

I don't want to use the forums. It's slower than contracts for me. I can't find what I want as easily. I have to make posts and get more information half the time. .... When I view a contract, everything I need to know is right there in a simple, effective screen.

Why make me use the forums to get the "really good deals"?

Keep the game IN the game, not on a web forum.


The forum is part of the game perhaps the most important part. Where else get you in contact with so many other players, discuss stuff, sell stuff or simply communicate. Isn't that the most imortant part for an MMORP, communication with other players?

Using the Contract system is far less "communication" in my eyes. To compare it with Rl, its more like buying cigarettes from an automat instead of buying and chatting a bit with a real merchant.

And that is exactly what CCP did, the stole me the platform to communicate with other sellers, make deals and have fun. Some of my best eve moments where auctions on the sell forum. Far more interesting than big fleet fights. Its something complete different to trade directly with other merchants instead of using a faceless contract system. No possibility to sneak behind and try some ingame buyout. See if the seller gets bnervous and sink his buy out price at the end etc. etc.

Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:25:00 - [704]
 

Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Hellspawn01
I could say "YaY" if the current contract system would be abit more simple or at least better as the old escrow system but its not. After 4 years of trading (with crappy forum software) you shut it down with a stupid excuse. Why not just close down all of the forums so we dont have to read your stupid ideas that you come up with to screw up more than you promise to fix?! Honestly, it casts doubt on your credibility.

Or were you just to lazy to watch over the posts? Could the forum server not cut it with the load of new posts per hour? Was it to prevent scams? Why make a char sell forum (after 3 years of char selling!!) when the rest of the sales get closed?

Wrangler, you´re fired. Go back to hello kitty online.


Read above: contract are easier, more flexible, and less scamable than escrow. Escrow sucked balls. - could you imagine ONLY being able to see the last 1000 auctions on ebay? seriously? and don't even get me started with being able to limit to you, corp, alliance, current region, specific other region, all regions... the list goes on. Seriously.... go use the contract system a bit, quit living in the dark ages. Unless you're running windows 98 still, then I have no hope for you.

Dont worry, I use WinXP pro atm and I try to switch over to linux once support gets closed Wink. Seriously, some minor changes to the escrow system like Search by region or just merge the market with the escrow system to an eve wide market would be better than the current contracts with exploits that you dont know about but can get banned for using them (read about it some weeks ago, pretty funny). Even a better forum software could handle the lack of forum mods atm. What do we get instead of very good player ideas? Nerfs, more bugs and stupid features.

PS: They cant even fix the fan submission page.

Moraguth
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:25:00 - [705]
 

Edited by: Moraguth on 22/08/2007 00:29:27
Whatever, I'm done.

You people are just too set in your ways and are unwilling to adapt.

Yes, it has problems, but what else is new?

I see how my attempts to get my point across went awry, so the best thing now is to just enjoy my game, and ignore all the *****ing that will be going on in here.

EDIT: .... some of that sounded insulting ... the fault was mine. I was trying to convince many of you that my way was best, and that obviously wasn't going to work if you truely believe your way is best. It wouldn't work on me. .... I want to whine more, but I'll stop instead. I hope your guys' third party forum works for you and you don't have too many problems switching over to contracts. If you need help figuring out how to make things work right, I won't even charge you the 1M isk, I'll help anyone.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:29:00 - [706]
 

Originally by: Moraguth
Whatever, I'm done.



Come on, don't stop when it gets difficult. Go for it.

Originally by: Moraguth
MoraguthUmmm... since most everyone besides me has a billion alts, use one of them in the main contract regions




I trust CCP will bring the Power of 2 scheme back then to enable the multitude (majority) of eve subscribers who have but the one account and thus max 3 characters to get some more regional coverage :P

Now, try the detailed end timing of forum auctions versus the "less then one day" & "less then one hour" timings of contracts.

While you're at it, provide an argument please for the enjoyment of the subscribers who use the current forums for their main activities while they are in real life and unable to engage in virtual life directly for a multitude of various reasons.

:-)

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but how would you look up commercial history track records of sellers trying to build up an identity which relies to a very high degree, like all economics in full really, on trust.

There's a small subset of elements which are possible by means of the current contract system, some folks are more accustomed to it then others. Still the base synopsis is that a full turn towards the contract system without any further alternatives or mechanisms allowing for concepts of trust, identity and marketing ... is rather restrictive.
Courier contracts? Please. I can see Ryder Insterstellar Fuel services trying to make all contracts on the one main character because that is the one people know, and not the ton of freighter pilots which run the jobs. The list goes on.


And then, then there is the "out of the blue" element and the style element in all of this. It is an entirely different debate imo, but a very important one.

Aidyn Avery
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:30:00 - [707]
 

this is totally stupid, i rely on the sell forums to do business that you wouldn't be able to find on contracts. There is no in game system in place to help my production find suppliers without it...

Goodlookin Gus
Gallente
Viking Research and Production
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:31:00 - [708]
 

how the hell are we gonna advertise about our buisness on research poses.???

well i guess the stabase forums might be populuar now

DeMundus
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:37:00 - [709]
 

/me adds his critisism

This is indeed one of the worst move I have seen made in a very long time.

WTS forum adds to the community, the communication between players the discussion of WTS/WTB etc. I beat that WTS are some of the most visited section...

anyways STUPID STUPID!

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:38:00 - [710]
 

It would have been more useful to fix GTC issues that make eve a place where china farmers can actually make money, instead of closing down trading forums.

Miz Cenuij
Caldari
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:39:00 - [711]
 

During all the years I've been playing Eve, this is without a doubt the biggest mistake i've seen to date.

I enjoy browsing the sell/buy forums when i'm being dragged around Ikea or some such.

WTF genius came up with this bright idea?

scruffer
ProtoStar Trading
United Abominations
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:46:00 - [712]
 

I do not like this at all. The forums were a great way to browse for crap i would not normally buy. I have found many things I would have never thought to buy, or even look for using only the contract system. CCP you need to change your mind on this one.

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:50:00 - [713]
 

can'nt say I'm that impressed to be honest I like reading sell order threads at work and stuff.

Investigador
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:52:00 - [714]
 

/fail

The contracts can't supply support for all the negotiation of conditions that goes on the trade forums.

On a contract you can't do stuff like auctioning 4 BPOs and then have 1 players buy of them, and another buying the other 3 because he didn't like on of them.

Varlak Maelstrom
Posted - 2007.08.22 00:59:00 - [715]
 

In my opinion it sounds as if CCP recently hired someone from the support division of NCSoft, since they are so wonderful in Customer support, and caring about what their paying customers want(NOT!). This is not lending to customer sastisfaction, and stupidity at its finest. Closing forums that aren't used is a good idea, but closing the most populated forum has the potential to actually lose clients. When most companies are about to make a drastic change they do market research, or other forms of polling, they don't just make the change without regard for their customers. It is like Microsoft putting out Vista then making it effective that all their other OS's quit working, and forced people to switch or else. They would go bankrupt in under a week. So summed up this is poorly thought out, as your alternative is a joke.

Ezzr Goode
Drugs 'R' Us
Posted - 2007.08.22 01:00:00 - [716]
 

Edited by: Ezzr Goode on 22/08/2007 01:04:17
Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Aeryn Davenport
I think this is a weak idea. There are many business models that cannot function through the contract system. The forums are necessary for advertising unique business offers and services. Removing that possibility will simply stifle the creative potential of EVE entrepreneurs. For example, many people offer custom services like POS fuel delivery, custom sets of BPCs, [snip].


I found quite a few of those "bpc packs" on the contract system. Probes, drones, missiles.... everything.


I sell BPC packs via contracts and it works well. But, and here is the rub, I also sell custom BPC packs made up to a customer's specification. I have a thread in the Sell forum listing my BPC packs and a price and I invite customers to make bundle requests which I then deliver to the requested system. There is no way the contract system allows this kind of interaction between buyer and seller.

On top of that there are a number of items I have that are not accepted by the contract system should I wish to sell them. For example, I want to sell a Capsule, but this is not allowed. How can I offer this to the market without the forum?

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but the problem is for many items and services there is no alternative to forum posts.

This descision needs to be reversed. Now.

Edit: Spelling... d'oh!

Ezzr

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2007.08.22 01:06:00 - [717]
 

716 posts and still no CCP response. There is nothing like responding to your customer's concerns... and this is nothing like responding to your customer's concerns Evil or Very Mad

Arrs

Eethrak
LiveTech
Cold Fusion Syndicate
Posted - 2007.08.22 01:12:00 - [718]
 

Isn't there a Live DevBlog thingie planned for Thursday? I suggest that the people who are going to be there go for the jugular and don't let go until we get at least some answers as to why.

Reapeat Offender
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.08.22 01:16:00 - [719]
 

Edited by: Reapeat Offender on 22/08/2007 01:17:57
Closing these forums for trading is a HORRIBLE idea. As has been stated by multiple individuals, we do not have the same amount of flexibility or ease of use with the in game contract system compared to what we can do here. To be honest, I hate the in game system and use it only when I absolutely must.

The end result will be that commerce will suffer and certain goods and services will no longer be able to be exchanged at all. Ultimately, this will hurt the game for no noticeable benefit.

I certainly hope this is not being done to ease the amount of work that must be performed by your moderators at the expense of the players who have come to rely upon these commerce forums.

Tellora
Posted - 2007.08.22 01:20:00 - [720]
 

I don't post in Sell sections, but I do read them. It's extremelly valuable part of forums imo, one that makes up for the deficiencies (sorry - features™) in market/database/contract parts of a pretty complex and demanding surrounding. A third-party forum is kind of helping - but why a work-around when there allready is everything needed (and pretty successful, not to mention busy) tool, read the official forum? And there's of course the services part - how the heck is it supposed to be used in game? Via various chat channels? As if having 5 or 6 opened tabs was not enough allready - add one tab for sigs offers, another for bulk mineral trades, one more for BPCs packages, and so on and so on? It's not the most convenient idea there is, if I was asked.
Oh, and ... umm.. at least SOME sort of an answer would be appreciated. Not a single-sided decision and an announcement (which is so disputed now) - it's not my idea how customer care works.


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