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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 06:03:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 14/08/2007 06:03:53
Sensor booster are no real counter, they help a bit, but if you realize that:

-75% range reduction from 1 RSD on maxed gallente recons would need a +300% range from 1 sensor boost to compensate.


ECCM is a one trick pony and a real good one even, but since ECM isnt really common any more only very few people use them.

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.14 06:56:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I don't know any competent ECM pilot that flies without at least one Gallente racial jammer. The ships are too prevalent in PVP to ignore.
Liang


Actually, I am finding Minmatar more common - so I find myself using more and more Minmatar Jammers - and if you are going hunting - caldari jammers YARRRR!!
However, ya, the smart players fly Gallente - and the Rook playing long range on a Gallente ship is a good counter. . .its like flavor, mix and match.

Originally by: Rylet VanDorn
The biggest balance issue between RSD & ECM is that RSDs can be stacked to cumulative effect, and are 100% effective at all times, whereas ECM is an all-or-nothing module.

Also: To the person who said damps are useless at close range... you are incorrect. The effect is still happening, and in today's PVP world of speed modded ships, it's perfectly possible to get out of locking range. Once the enemy has lost lock, you can move back in, and the enemy's sensors are dampened so badly that they are dead before they can re-target you.

The balance for RSDs is simple: Make it so they cannot be stacked on a target. 8 damps should have the same effect as 1, just like ECM.


I endorse this idea a lot, but in reality, I am begining to think CCP is making the game a little too nice - catch my drift? I prefer buffs to nerfs, nerfs are almost always too strong and buffs seem more fun.

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Morn Judith
It seems to me that ECM is now nearly obsolete. I used to be a pretty advance Caldari EW pilot before I took a break and scrapped my characters. I've been back for a while now, and recently trained Recons. But it seems to me in returning to PvP that no one uses ECMs anymore. The flavor of the day is now Remote Sensor Dampeners.

Why is this? I know there was a change made to ECM mods, what exactly was that? And did this change result in the abandonment of ECM mods, and the dedication of damps to PvP?

I'm asking this because if ECM is mostly useless now, or rather Damps are just better, then I'd rather not waste my time on training the relevant skills, and going through the pain of losing ships to figure out that they hardly work now.



LOL. I have three very skilled Rook pilots that would disagree about ECM being useless. ECM is awesome. One Rook and it's a whole different fight.


I agree, a smart Rook pilot is a very good asset to bring, and flying a Rook makes small hunts very exciting.

Originally by: Morn Judith
Excellent. Theres a lot of good information in this thread. It looks like ECMs weren't super-nerfed, but super-specialized.

One question that I have is how to combat the effects of RSDs? Does ECCM do anything for you? Or is the only way to negate their effects is to remain outside of the 130km bubble? In my opinion, if you've got ECCM to combat the ECM, then there definitely has to be a way to save yourself from RSDs other than FoF missiles.


Sensor Boosters are a direct counter to sensor damps - my math is not perfect, but I think sensor boosters give a slightly higher addative to your lock range and lock time then the Sensor damp takes. . .Which means, with one sensor booster and one damp, the booster pilot will gain a slight benifite to his lock time and range. However, as stated above, sensor damps are a constant ECM working on your ship, and they add up without any 'stacking penalty' - so a specilized SD ship like the Galletne Recons can take a battle ship pilot even with sensor damps to a very limited lock range. . .

So yes, SBs are the counter, but the Arazu has the abuility to hold anything down forever unless you get backup. Gallente Recons are oftain battle starters, Caldari recons slip into battle after a few seconds like the Rapier. As a Rook, you play at Max range - when something comes for you - you warp out - and when you come back, you get back to work Cool But to say one is better then the other is stupid.

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:13:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 14/08/2007 07:14:06
Originally by: Atius Tirawa

Sensor Boosters are a direct counter to sensor damps - my math is not perfect, but I think sensor boosters give a slightly higher addative to your lock range and lock time then the Sensor damp takes. . .Which means, with one sensor booster and one damp, the booster pilot will gain a slight benifite to his lock time and range. However, as stated above, sensor damps are a constant ECM working on your ship, and they add up without any 'stacking penalty' - so a specilized SD ship like the Galletne Recons can take a battle ship pilot even with sensor damps to a very limited lock range. . .

So yes, SBs are the counter, but the Arazu has the abuility to hold anything down forever unless you get backup. Gallente Recons are oftain battle starters, Caldari recons slip into battle after a few seconds like the Rapier. As a Rook, you play at Max range - when something comes for you - you warp out - and when you come back, you get back to work Cool But to say one is better then the other is stupid.


Wrong, even un an unbonused ship -57.8% >> +60% because 1.6x0.422=0.6752 -> -32,48% locking range

add: how do you warp at 160km?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:28:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 14/08/2007 07:14:06
Originally by: Atius Tirawa

Sensor Boosters are a direct counter to sensor damps - my math is not perfect, but I think sensor boosters give a slightly higher addative to your lock range and lock time then the Sensor damp takes. . .Which means, with one sensor booster and one damp, the booster pilot will gain a slight benifite to his lock time and range. However, as stated above, sensor damps are a constant ECM working on your ship, and they add up without any 'stacking penalty' - so a specilized SD ship like the Galletne Recons can take a battle ship pilot even with sensor damps to a very limited lock range. . .

So yes, SBs are the counter, but the Arazu has the abuility to hold anything down forever unless you get backup. Gallente Recons are oftain battle starters, Caldari recons slip into battle after a few seconds like the Rapier. As a Rook, you play at Max range - when something comes for you - you warp out - and when you come back, you get back to work Cool But to say one is better then the other is stupid.


Wrong, even un an unbonused ship -57.8% >> +60% because 1.6x0.422=0.6752 -> -32,48% locking range

add: how do you warp at 160km?


Long Range Targeting. Signal Analysis. FYI.

Liang

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:29:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 14/08/2007 07:14:06
Originally by: Atius Tirawa

Sensor Boosters are a direct counter to sensor damps - my math is not perfect, but I think sensor boosters give a slightly higher addative to your lock range and lock time then the Sensor damp takes. . .Which means, with one sensor booster and one damp, the booster pilot will gain a slight benifite to his lock time and range. However, as stated above, sensor damps are a constant ECM working on your ship, and they add up without any 'stacking penalty' - so a specilized SD ship like the Galletne Recons can take a battle ship pilot even with sensor damps to a very limited lock range. . .

So yes, SBs are the counter, but the Arazu has the abuility to hold anything down forever unless you get backup. Gallente Recons are oftain battle starters, Caldari recons slip into battle after a few seconds like the Rapier. As a Rook, you play at Max range - when something comes for you - you warp out - and when you come back, you get back to work Cool But to say one is better then the other is stupid.


Wrong, even un an unbonused ship -57.8% >> +60% because 1.6x0.422=0.6752 -> -32,48% locking range

add: how do you warp at 160km?


Long Range Targeting. Signal Analysis. FYI.

Liang


i dont know what you try to say.

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:36:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Atius Tirawa on 14/08/2007 07:36:02
Originally by: Benn Helmsmanadd:
how do you warp at 160km?
[/quote



I am not 100% on the question - but I assume you can cover quite a few kelomiters in a cruiser moving before you are in serious danger. . .so even if you warp in at 100km, you should be able to cover that distance.

If I misunderstand the question - clerify please.

As far as the math - let me get some of my numbers.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:36:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Benn Helmsman
i dont know what you try to say.


You're forgetting to add in skills that affect your targetting range + speed.

1 * 1.6 (sensor booster) * 1.25 (long range targeting * (1 - .48 (phased muon) * 1.25 (sig suppression 5) ) = .8

20% reduction in locking range.

Liang




Arakidias
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:39:00 - [68]
 

I've had vagabonds trying to sologank me in BB or scorp. I've laughed at their frustration as I warp away with them being jammed.

But I don't want to know what would've happened if I had missed a cycle..

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:41:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
i dont know what you try to say.


You're forgetting to add in skills that affect your targetting range + speed.

1 * 1.6 (sensor booster) * 1.25 (long range targeting * (1 - .48 (phased muon) * 1.25 (sig suppression 5) ) = .8

20% reduction in locking range.

Liang






eh well if you do that, you compare a ship with skill to one without.

Because 1A[initial locking range, that includes all skill, gang and implant bonus]x1.6[sensor booster]x0.422[RSD]=0.6752A

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.08.14 07:56:00 - [70]
 

Example:
Raven, 0 SB II
93.75 km
1x Damp: 36.56 km (39% of original)
2x Damp: 17.18 km (18% of original)
3x Damp: 11.2 km (12% of original)
4x Damp: 9.27 km (10% of original)

1 SB II
0x: 150 km (100% / 160%)
1x: 58.5 km (39%, 62%)
2x: 27.49 km (18%, 30%)
3x: 17.92 km (12%, 20%)
4x: 14.83 km (10%, 16%)

2x SB II
0x: 228.22 km (100%, 243%)
1x: 89.01 (39%, 95%)
2x: 41.82 (18%, 45%)
3x: 27.26 (12%, 29%)
4x: 22.56 (10%, 24%)

3x SB II
0x: 250... (max, 266%)
1x: 119.48 (47%, 127%)
2x: 56.13 (22%, 60%)
3x: 36.6 (15%, 39%)
4x: 30.28km (12%, 32%)


First percentage is precent of max lock range with SB's active, and 2nd percent is of original lock range).

Liang

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 08:07:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Example:
Raven, 0 SB II
93.75 km
1x Damp: 36.56 km (39% of original)
2x Damp: 17.18 km (18% of original)
3x Damp: 11.2 km (12% of original)
4x Damp: 9.27 km (10% of original)

1 SB II
0x: 150 km (100% / 160%)
1x: 58.5 km (39%, 62%)
2x: 27.49 km (18%, 30%)
3x: 17.92 km (12%, 20%)
4x: 14.83 km (10%, 16%)

2x SB II
0x: 228.22 km (100%, 243%)
1x: 89.01 (39%, 95%)
2x: 41.82 (18%, 45%)
3x: 27.26 (12%, 29%)
4x: 22.56 (10%, 24%)

3x SB II
0x: 250... (max, 266%)
1x: 119.48 (47%, 127%)
2x: 56.13 (22%, 60%)
3x: 36.6 (15%, 39%)
4x: 30.28km (12%, 32%)


First percentage is precent of max lock range with SB's active, and 2nd percent is of original lock range).

Liang


So i am right?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.14 09:31:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 14/08/2007 09:35:45
Originally by: Liang Nuren
This won't work. You can't launch/recall them fast enough.


Did it for a couple of minutes against a raven until a buddy of him arrived. It works. You are not recalling them all the way back to you, you are using atatck and recall commands to keep them moving between you and the target.

You can of cource try to counter this by timing your launchers, which would require an higher amount of micromanaging of the drone user.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
20% reduction in locking range.


22% actually. And that is with a damp on an *unspecced* ship. And that does not change the core thing Benn is saying - that sensor boosters do not "counter" damps.

Damiv
Posted - 2007.08.14 09:49:00 - [73]
 

Since it has been shown that SB will not counter even against an unbounused ship, my reccomendation is either for racial RSD or for them to be brought in line with SBs.

Anaka Totoch
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.08.14 12:42:00 - [74]
 

IMO ECM is still viable. I trained up for ecm after the nerf, yes it may not be the i-win button it was before, but it is still a different way of fighting and adds an important element to the game.

You have to use specialised ships, like the rook to really get all the benefit, but i know some fights i have turned up and turned the tide of the fight in our favor.

With near maxxed skills you get 13 + jam strength on racial jammers, which may not be able to permajam everything , but with 4 racials and a multi i can almost permajam 3 bs sized ships, 2 for sure. its a different way of fighting and for me if i dont want to tank or do dps, but would rather annoy someone it is an option for meh Laughing

People complaining you cant tank and jam are wrond, your ecm is your tank. filling your lows with SDA increases your tank. If you are jamming ships that would otherwise be shooting you you are tanking them effectively not only for you but your entire gang. ECM and range is your tank. If ecm is so obsolete why are ecm platforms always primaried Razz

Also one thing that ecm does that sensor damps cant is stopping remote reps. More and more you come across well organized groups of bs that have 2 x remote reppers each, and the circle rep is very hard to break. Large remotes have a 9km range iirc and so sensor damps wont be able to break their lock.. whereas ecm can break this "circle repping" and ruin their day. I know its only a particular situation but it will become more and more popular.

Sensor damps have situations where they are best but so do ecms and a maxxed rook is by no means something to be taken lightly when you see one.

Anaka

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.08.14 13:10:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Damiv
Since it has been shown that SB will not counter even against an unbounused ship, my reccomendation is either for racial RSD or for them to be brought in line with SBs.


I quite like this idea.

Think about it. We have sensors that are "similar" like magnetometric vs gravimetric and dissimilar like ladar vs gravimetric. The balance is by the racial enemy (gallente vs caldari).

So sensor damps should best work on the racial enemy, 2nd best on self, lowest on others. I mean look at ECM. Multispecs could be also changed that way, so they become interesting in some cases while loosing to racials in others.

Anyway I'd make sensor manipulation altogether dependant on ships sensor strenght, with EW (RSD and ECM) in this case being a modulator of how much output you can get. If you match you opponents sensor strength, you get 100% effect. So boosting your sensor strength makes you resistant, while sensor boosters diminish the negative effect.

Dedicated EW ships will have high sensor strength from the start. Of course this will make ECM on a carrier VERY dangerous, but carriers rarely use those.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 13:23:00 - [76]
 

No-one ever complained about racial ECM being too strong, on the contrary. All complaints were of the multispecs.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.08.14 14:33:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Laboratus
No-one ever complained about racial ECM being too strong, on the contrary. All complaints were of the multispecs.


exactly ... where are the racial RSDs ???

Kua Immortal
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.08.14 17:03:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Kua Immortal on 14/08/2007 17:12:37
Edited by: Kua Immortal on 14/08/2007 17:04:20
Originally by: murder one
ECM is awesome. One Rook and it's a whole different fight.


I wholeheartedly agree, but (and this has been touched on), one Gallente recon and (in the majority of cases - chance comes into play to an extent, as well as locking time etc.) the fight is just as it was before.

Also damps are pretty balanced imo, but there is something a bit wrong about an abundance of midslots (and three damps) being a slight I-win button (or perhaps, more accurately, an I-won't lose button) in solo PvP. But its absolutely incomparable to pre-nerf ECM.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 17:38:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Laboratus
No-one ever complained about racial ECM being too strong, on the contrary. All complaints were of the multispecs.


exactly ... where are the racial RSDs ???


Not quite the point here.
ECM completely cuts off targetting capabilities, while RSD won't do anything if you are close enough... So with racial ECM you have a 1/4 chance of your target being of the rigt race, while with RSD the variance in efficiency comes from engagement range...

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.08.14 17:52:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 14/08/2007 17:54:22
Damps should effect either lock range or locktime but not both. Even better split it into 2 modules...

On topic: You can actually achieve a greater jam strength post nerf with rigs and tech II ECM damage mods. As someone else said though you can't tank an ECM ship at all anymore if you want to be an effective jamming platform atleast.

Aslong as your opponent doesn't notice your ECM ships in gang they can be highly effective. The Scorpion is basically obsolete now though, the very niche role of the ECM ship makes it less worthwhile than another ship of a different kind if your gang is any bigger than 10. Also you won't last 10 seconds against a good foe in an ECM platform.

I personally think all the ECM platforms need a significant weight reduction and agility increase as they have no other defence to speak of (no their ECM modules aren't an effective defence against anymore than 1 or 2 ships).

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 18:21:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 14/08/2007 17:54:22
Damps should effect either lock range or locktime but not both. Even better split it into 2 modules...

...


That would not work since the range penalty would have to be so very broken for them to be at all effective. At the moment they are uneffective if the other guy can choose range and is fitting more SB than you are (locks first at point blank range). EW ships at the moment are very fragile and making them any more fragile would just be counterproductive...

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.08.14 18:26:00 - [82]
 

Nerf across the board and bonuses on dedicated ships then.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.08.14 18:53:00 - [83]
 

That would be bad.

EW as a strategy is a good thing. It brings variety to ship setups and reduces predictibility. If we move any more to the direction of one ship one role, we might as well remove modules and have standard fittings, since ships would pretty much just have one fit worth fitting. And that is well against what this game is about.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.08.14 18:59:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
Nerf across the board and bonuses on dedicated ships then.


Unfortunately, this is what I see happening. =/

Liang


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