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i take
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:23:00 - [1]
 

well i was thinking with the new nos nerf, then amarr have got a boost since amarr laser drains their cap so they always have lower cap and thereby the nosses is usefull:P

don't really know i don't use amarr that much.

Cyan Gadarin
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:25:00 - [2]
 

Your post didn't make much sence but i know where your going.. on another note.. no it didn't boost amarr, the recons are now useless ;)

Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:33:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Cyan Gadarin
Your post didn't make much sence but i know where your going.. on another note.. no it didn't boost amarr, the recons are now useless ;)


I have to agree the amarr recons get hit with the nerf-bat, but excluding those and the blood raider ships, the nos nerf is in general good for amarr, in my opinion. With the high cap drain from lasers, most of the time you'll find that you have less cap than your target, and if you have more, you probably dont need the nos anyway. (or you just turn on some armor reps to drain him even more)

Tao Han
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Cyan Gadarin
Your post didn't make much sence but i know where your going.. on another note.. no it didn't boost amarr, the recons are now useless ;)


No they arent and thank you for playing

Brunswick2
coracao ardente
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:34:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Brunswick2 on 30/07/2007 23:34:13
Clearly your main doesn't fly recons and/or the bhaalgorn Sad...

Cyan Gadarin
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:34:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Tao Han
Originally by: Cyan Gadarin
Your post didn't make much sence but i know where your going.. on another note.. no it didn't boost amarr, the recons are now useless ;)


No they arent and thank you for playing


You dont use them do you? Twisted Evil

JamnOne
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:37:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: JamnOne on 30/07/2007 23:38:09
For those who don't know - here is the thread that the Devs have requested we use for comments about Rev 2.2 and Nos and Khanid mk II Comments on NOS

Siege
Minmatar
Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
Posted - 2007.07.30 23:55:00 - [8]
 

Not sure about the Bhaalgorn, but the Curse bonus sets also includes the Neutralizers as well as the Nos. So a mixed rack of the two will still be somewhat effective, or a neutralizer setup. Especially in a nano-curse that would have no cap useage other than the neuts. Yes it's still a nerf, and fitting will be a pain, but it's still going to be useful. (Was it CPU or Grid that the curse was short of anyways? I don't fly them.)

As to the turret based ships, I see it causing a shift in the balance, with Amarr moving up the ladder. Amarr usually don't have much cap anyways, so they will usually be at a lower percentage than their opponent, meaning they will still be able to nos fairly well.

It's going to be interesting to see what neutralizer heavy setups are going to start popping up. I'm personally leaning toward a neut/nos mixed rack as becoming the popular replacement, I already know a few guys who have been running that way for a while.

Inty's and the Vagabond really will benefit from this though.

Lowanaera
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:00:00 - [9]
 

Bhaalgorn needs love as its bonus is nos-only, but Curse/Pilgrim are just fine, just require a bit more thought to fly, and this is a nice boost for our laser boats.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:12:00 - [10]
 

The nos change doesn't make any sense. The most effective way to use a nos-boat now will be to deliberately kill your cap and run it as low as you can, otherwise the nos won't function well. Semiconductor memory cells are also nerfed versus ccc's as having more cap will make you more vulnerable to nos. Essentially, a proper nos ship will have to use its cap as it pulls it from the enemy.

Without careful planning to ensure that cap is used for something useful and not wasted, to neutralise the enemy's cap with nos will require you to neutralise more of your own cap than you'd normally neutralise. The average ship may as well use a neutraliser and running guns off nos is no longer going to work properly.

This doesn't hit the Nosdomi half as hard as it hits average setups with one or two nos. I'm going out to buy a full talisman set and pimp out a nosdomi for when the patch hits.

Haffrage
Regeneration
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:21:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Haffrage on 31/07/2007 00:20:48
Learn to fit cap fluxes.

Relative equality and absolute cap cost of reps/neuts, meet -15% capacitor capacity Very Happy

Gojyu
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:21:00 - [12]
 

No, it didn't boost amarr. Now there's no reason in the world not to fit energy neutralisers instead of nos

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:23:00 - [13]
 

What it might well effect are active tanks, if fewer ships use nos (and lets be honest an awful lot do) then active tanks become a far more appealing option.

Im not sure about the impact vs the amarr recons. A neut Curse certainly has the capability to be pretty vicous (especially if the target has dropped its nos slots in favour of guns - which might well happen). It will probably take a while for these changes to have a noticable impact however.

C.


LordVodka
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:23:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:26:27
First off this nos nerf is REDICULOUS. I can name a great number of reason's why...

As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet)

Another over looked feature to this nos nerf is MWD ships, well how do you stop inty's vaga's, phoons that are mwd'ing outa web range. You throw some nos on them and you shut there MWD's off, but oh wait. CCP just did one of the lamest nerfs in the history of this game and now we can't shut there caps off just match there cap, whip de du dah. It's called a Energy Vampire, not a equalizer.

If there needs to be a Nos nerf and in no way am I denying that nos needs a nerf, Do something more reasonable, stacking nerf the nos with the stacking system thats already in place. 1 nos is full effect, 2 nos is close to full effect, and then after that the 3rd, 4th, 5th nos's start to lose any effect to even fit. That is a nerf that could be imposed.

In clonclusion, the nos nerf hurts amarr more then any other race with there highest cap use needs. secondly the nos nerf boost MWD ships to a lvl higher then they were at before the speed nerf. And finnally a new nerf needs to be imposed and this one deleted.

Ben Murder
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:29:00 - [15]
 

What is next nerf more caldari ships because they don't suck enough ? Honestly this nerf is useless unlike many before this one that have made this game more and more boring.

Laylah Crowley
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:33:00 - [16]
 

gotta aggree w/ vodka, along with MWD ships u gotta look at interceptors also, they just blob aginst a bs normally and can be really annoying only way to fend them off is to lock em and hit them with a cupple heavy nos that most bs's use to sustain their caps in whatever they're doing now thats gonna be impossible to drain their cap down to stop them from flying around and being the tackling neusance they are.

Lowanaera
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Lowanaera on 31/07/2007 00:37:12
Originally by: LordVodka

First off this nos nerf is REDICULOUS. I can name a great number of reason's why...

As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet)


You're not thinking this through at all.

Who has the biggest capacitors and so is at the greatest advantage with a percentage based system?
Who is likeliest to be at the lowest capacitor percentage due to high gun usage?
Therefore who is in the best position to leverage NOS to keep their modules running?

It will now be easier for us to keep our lasers firing with Nos due to the much lower probability of being counter-nosed. Not harder. This is a buff, not a nerf.


It's like people are seeing the words "nos nerf" and immediately freak out and start wailing about Amarr ner***e without taking the time to consider the details of the fix and the actual effect on the way we do combat.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:37:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: LordVodka
Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:26:27
First off this nos nerf is REDICULOUS. I can name a great number of reason's why...

As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet)



Not really, as has been said, when you are that low on cap, there's a large chance your opponent will have more, so you will drain him anyway.
I agree there were other obvious options like stacking nerf, sig radius penalty or tracking penalty but this thing will be good for Amarr in general.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Cyan Gadarin
Your post didn't make much sence but i know where your going.. on another note.. no it didn't boost amarr, the recons are now useless ;)
Ok, let's recap:
not overpowered = useless

Good to know..

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:47:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: LordVodka
Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:26:27
First off this nos nerf is REDICULOUS. I can name a great number of reason's why...

As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet)

Another over looked feature to this nos nerf is MWD ships, well how do you stop inty's vaga's, phoons that are mwd'ing outa web range. You throw some nos on them and you shut there MWD's off, but oh wait. CCP just did one of the lamest nerfs in the history of this game and now we can't shut there caps off just match there cap, whip de du dah. It's called a Energy Vampire, not a equalizer.

If there needs to be a Nos nerf and in no way am I denying that nos needs a nerf, Do something more reasonable, stacking nerf the nos with the stacking system thats already in place. 1 nos is full effect, 2 nos is close to full effect, and then after that the 3rd, 4th, 5th nos's start to lose any effect to even fit. That is a nerf that could be imposed.

In clonclusion, the nos nerf hurts amarr more then any other race with there highest cap use needs. secondly the nos nerf boost MWD ships to a lvl higher then they were at before the speed nerf. And finnally a new nerf needs to be imposed and this one deleted.

By my count, two large armor repairers require just over 50 cap per second (baseline) whereas a single XL shield booster requires 80 cap per second. Armor skills *increase* that cap useage to about 70 cap per second (increased rate of repair), wherease shield skills reduce shield cap useage (without changing repair rate) to about the same. No doubt there are minor details I'm not accounting for here, but I fail to see how you figure that a dual repairer is so much more cap hungry on an Amarr ship that a dual repairer is on a Gallente or armor-tanked Minmatar ship, or an XL booster is on a Caldari or shield-tanked Minmatar ship...

The response to your second point is simple; the devs clearly rather that you use a neutralizer rather than a nos.

As to your third point (and your over point in disagreeing with the change) I think I agree. What I would like to see is (1) a stacking nerf, like what you describe, to reduce the overwhelming strength of specialty nos boats, and (2) a signature radius factor OR a tracking factor to take away the current significant advantage a nos gives over a tackler. I think the signature radius would be best; larger nos's would have reduced effect (but non non-zero) against smaller ships, much like missiles do. I think the tracking solution is less balanced because it is likely to make small ships totally immune to a nos, which should not be the case.

Evil Kitten
Posted - 2007.07.31 00:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Haffrage
Edited by: Haffrage on 31/07/2007 00:20:48
Learn to fit cap fluxes.Very Happy


Interesting point, previously cap fluxes were only better for setups that were all about sustainability so that max cap didn't matter

Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.31 01:04:00 - [22]
 

Other ships can compensate by running an active tank to consume cap or mods such as MWD as they are very cap hungry.

Soulbound Bob
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.07.31 01:06:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: i take
well i was thinking with the new nos nerf, then amarr have got a boost since amarr laser drains their cap so they always have lower cap and thereby the nosses is usefull:P

don't really know i don't use amarr that much.
We came to the same conclusion.

cuteboylookingatyou
Posted - 2007.08.19 21:30:00 - [24]
 

Why would you want ships to go slower?

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2007.08.19 22:09:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: LordVodka
Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:26:27
As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet)

Another over looked feature to this nos nerf is MWD ships, well how do you stop inty's vaga's, phoons that are mwd'ing outa web range. You throw some nos on them and you shut there MWD's off, but oh wait. CCP just did one of the lamest nerfs in the history of this game and now we can't shut there caps off just match there cap, whip de du dah.


Realese your small drones, fire up that dualrep tank and your lasers. Then hit him with NOS when you are below 30% cap. The interceptor will have to chose to either ditch the mwd and get hit by the drones andpossibly your guns or deactivate the disruptor.


Kharadran Sullath
Caldari
Subordination
Posted - 2007.08.19 22:12:00 - [26]
 

Necro
>.>

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.19 22:16:00 - [27]
 

Not certain, but the Nos nerf needn't be disastrous for Amarr.

If I understand it right, the nerf will mean that you won't be able to drain your opponent below your own Cap level (that is, if I have 30% Cap and I activate a Nos, the enemy won't go below 30% Cap either). Now the one thing that Amarr are always complaining about is that they are always running out of Cap before the enemy...

Well, they're the one race who can really take advantage of the new Nos mechanics, right? Cool

Kayleigh Lothian
Minmatar
Obsidian Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.19 22:48:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Gojyu
No, it didn't boost amarr. Now there's no reason in the world not to fit energy neutralisers instead of nos

Offcourse it didn't boost amarr, nothing ever boosts ammar. Hell, they even whined about the 25% tracking increase they got and said it was not realy a boost since that was how it should have been in the first place...

To the OP: you have to learn that this is eve-o, if a player has opted to play Amarr he has an obligation to whine here. I am still waiting for them to cause an outcry because their titan is the worst in game. Just look at which titans have been killed, clearly the Avatar is sub par Wink

TigerWoman
Amarr
The Circle
Blade.
Posted - 2007.08.19 22:54:00 - [29]
 

that nos nerf got 2 sides:

as far as i know amarr ships got high starting cap, but not very good recharge.
amarr lasers suck energy quite much but the most energy is consumed by long range guns

i heared gallente blasters will take nearly the same ammount of cap then a amarr laser with shiplvl 5. this will result, that at the start you can get nossed ( you got more starting cap then he does and when he consumes the same ammount of energy his % value will drop more then yours - so nos would work).
but then when the cap is goin down and your enemy needs lets say 25% of his cap to maintain his repper and hardeners you got more cap as a buffer then he does, cause amarr got higher base cap.

but there are also probs with that stuff incoming:
- some mods allow you to tweak your cap (mwd, flux coils, battery, laser on a non amarr ship :P )
- fitting a battery: why would you do that? you will have more cap% then your enemy most of the time so you are vulnerable to nos.
-fitting a mwd: hey nice my nano speed ship is quite save unless the enemy fits a neut (high cap use and 25% penalty for cap)
-flux coils: faster recharge but lower max cap.

i think nos needed a change, but if that change is about to boost amarr i will say NO!
a nos change doesnt boost amarr in any way. nos were overused you could make rofl setups with it (nos domi - but the double injected neut domi will be much more dangerous).

i know it from myself: hmm i got a spare highslot maybee a nos would fit......
i think sisi is there to see if a ship is way to overpowered but the real impact will get uncovered on tranqu. .

i never use more then one or two nos anyways. but i would say that any bad change will get discovered.

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.08.19 23:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Cyan Gadarin
Your post didn't make much sence but i know where your going.. on another note.. no it didn't boost amarr, the recons are now useless ;)
I'm going to assume that ;) at the end of your 'statement' is a play at sarcasm.. Amarr Recons are just as effective after the 'nos nerf' as before.. Your just going to have to think up a different fit and target selection ROE than the all nos in the highs and kill cap in 2 cycles fits.. I've got mine all figured out do *you*? Wink


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