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Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.07 22:41:00 - [1561]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Wyliee

the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too.


Then this "nerf" should make no difference and have no effect on anyone.

Simply: You could use Large NOS the second day your character was alive. No "blah blah blah" number of skills, no "weeks and weeks" spent. Second day.

So you lost 2 days training and CCP altered a module that was more effective in bringing down your enemy than putting guns on the ship. Seems like balancing to me, not nerfing.


I think hes refering to have trained to a Curse and Pilgrim whos main attribute was NOS/Neut with Drones.

Freakdevil
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.08.07 23:48:00 - [1562]
 

I think skills should factor into the NOS usage. Higher skills should allow NOS module to slowly take more and keep more upto a point.

Otherwise I think perhaps removing NOS and Neutralizers might make more sense if your looking to increase combat times and give people more time to react.

-FD

vile56
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2007.08.08 03:09:00 - [1563]
 

sooo... are we moveing ahead with changes or not?

zero2espect
Amarr
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2007.08.08 07:05:00 - [1564]
 

Quote:
In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back

Think before posting kthx ;D


simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep?

again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem.

some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about.

Wyliee
Taurus Inc
THE KLINGONS
Posted - 2007.08.08 09:30:00 - [1565]
 

for all of you that complain that a force recon shouldnt be able to solo kill a battleship - why the hell not?

takes a lot longer to learn to use and much more skill points.


Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.08 09:54:00 - [1566]
 

Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 08/08/2007 10:22:38
Originally by: Wyliee
for all of you that complain that a force recon shouldnt be able to solo kill a battleship - why the hell not?

takes a lot longer to learn to use and much more skill points.




Well you could for starters look up the other recons and judge wether the majority is or is not able to kill a bs.
You could maybe read the descs too. You might give a few quiet minutes of contemplation on the general theme of bonuses they have. You could also consider for a moment the general guidelines along which the game as whole seems to work, in regards to different shipsizes, and t2 ships in particular.
Just to nudge you into right direction, it might be worth it to mention here that f.ex. a logistics cruiser has pretty similar skill requirements in terms of skill points, would you argue that hence they should be able to kill battleships too? What about a hulk?

The costs more/needs more skills argument was shot down on daily basis during the nanonerf-flamewar, if you're interested, you can dig up a thread few months back and see why it doesn't work.

And in any case, I'm willing to bet a properly trained BS-pilot won't be that far behind a properly trained curse-pilot in terms of skillpoints, considering most of the support skills are the same, and nos needs one low rank skill compared to t2 turrets all the way from small to large + the assorted gunnery support skills.

DarkFollower
Amarr
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.08.08 10:41:00 - [1567]
 

Originally by: SencneS

You're not going to see more Khanid ships, if fact you'll see less. They where already on the short list, I fly around in a Damnation and people say WOW that's one cool ass looking ship.

The one thing people and more importantly CCP seem to forget is some Khanid ships are not designed for PVP. The Damnation being one of them. It's a support ship, like the Guardian. Although it's name sounds otherwise, this Fleet Command ship is not meant for close up firefights.

I've posted all though this thread, and like the person you quoted I trained a long time to get a Damnation, and trained all it's skills to use it effectively. Now 50% of those skills are tossed out the window.

I would rather be shown a new "toy" and be told "Here, you need these skills to fly it" then have my toy tossed into the shredder and be told, "Here's your new toy. Oh by the way you'll need to train for a month to use it as effectively as the one we just shredded, and you'll also need to use it differently, so get use to the new play style"

This is exactly what CCP has done.

And those that thing it's a buff, really haven't flown the Khanid ships. They didn't need a buff and they certainly didn't need this nerf.

I would also like to remind people that these Khanid changes where suggest by a player, who probably didn't have statistical information available to CCP. He made assumptions probably due to his game style. He probably likes close in combat so of course he is going to suggest bonuses to sub 10km range setups.

If I was to suggest changes to Khanid ships I'd want Sniping bonuses. For the same reason as there are no dedicated close range combat ships, I propose a Sniping setup. I'm talking 300km sniping range with low damage on a Damnation. Which is exactly what a fleet command ship should be like.



I only see a few reasons for this post
1) u Don't fly the khanid ships in their current form
2) u don't pvp alot in khanid ships and u generaly have another race ship's that u use for pvp and keep the khanid ships only for the looks
3) u are a alt of some1's main and u use this char only for fleet bonuses or expendable tacklers(the only 1 thing that made khanid ships worth flying was that they costed nothing because they werent very good)
4) u just like flying things that ussualy end blown up , that try to do all things but fail at all of them ,that all other races variants are better at what they do(except only the domnation that at least can fit the warfares but fail at all the other not like and eos let's say), that only look good and have a unique colour

Now really gimme a reason why u would fly this stuff because in order

Dictor - only good because it actually does what dictors are suposed to do and that is launch bubbles and it's cheep other than that it's slow can sometimes fire lasers and u ocasionaly see missiles coming from him so it only provides preaty light show
ceptor - it's cheep and u can fit a web other than it's slow , a rifter would probably outdamage it , and a punisher outtank him so it tends to die alot but it's cheep so..
Af - u've guessed it it's cheep it can tackle and probably survive longer that a ceptor so u'll use this because u're sick of the ceptor and u want something that can rezists longer, it has fancy cilinders that rotate, what speed , what dmg
HAc - yeah this one's preatty cheep aswell, good tank ,good for tackling , what dmg , slow and bulky
command ship - good for bonuses , it's black other than that crap crap crap maybe a bit of tank here and there because it's black afterall i mean wtf why bonuses for 4 turrents and 1 bonus to optimal(the other one is cap reduction to lasers) that i can use for what ???!! won't give me enough range to snipe and my "close range" weapons that ussualy shoot up to 20-25 now can shoot up to 35-40 wow

Regarding the Nos change , i like it , won't hurt the curse that much , it will hurt the pilgrim maybe, helps amarr

Jacknife Sanguinarius
Posted - 2007.08.08 18:59:00 - [1568]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Jacknife Sanguinarius
And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :(



Heh... probably the #1 reason was because they were cheaper than the non-Khanid ships and that's because they generally aren't that good... but if you're in a gang, you don't need to be the best... just able to fit some weapons, tackle, and/or EW to contribute.


True. For the Malediction and Vengeance it was the mid slots to be able to web/scramble with MWD. I didn't notice if there was a price difference or not.

Anathema, duh, only covert ops ship. But as pointed out, who fights in them?

I haven't quite worked my way up to the others. But seeing this makes getting tech 2 med lasers before getting into the Damnation frustrating!

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.08 19:28:00 - [1569]
 

Edited by: ***er on 08/08/2007 19:29:13
Originally by: zero2espect
Quote:
In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back

Think before posting kthx ;D


simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep?

again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem.

some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about.


Ok so you cant use NOs on a capless MWD target, this is true. However can you today? i mean a NOS on a capless target today doesnt really give you cap does it?

And as you seem to be good at amarr ships, let me tell you something about caldari ships:

1)ppl dont PvP generally in most Caldari ships. Giveing them some sort of edge should be forbidden!
2)a passive shield tank wont be fitting Neutralizers... No powergrid for it. And no dronebay so cant waste highslot dmg.
3)a passive shield tank have close to 0 cap recharge. Its got enough cap to run 1-3 invul fields. Not enough cap to run a Neutralizer effectively.
4)Active shield tanks dont want to burn their Cap to 0 as fast as possible, they want to stay above 30% for aslong as possible. On both shields and Cap.
5)Caldari ships have low powergrid.

Fact: you wont see many caldari ships in PvP, and those you do see wont likely have a Neutralizer to dump its cap Or it WONT dump its cap couse that would be suicide with no Tank.


There your Caldari dumping cap problem is not a threat really. A MWD running on cap boosters wont give you much cap today, and wont after patch.

/flameOn

Father Muslum
Posted - 2007.08.08 20:57:00 - [1570]
 

With this patch "NOS AMOUNT BONUS" means nothing. So all curse, pilgrim, ashimmu, bhaalgorn bonuses must be changed if this is coming.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.08 21:14:00 - [1571]
 

Originally by: Father Muslum
With this patch "NOS AMOUNT BONUS" means nothing. So all curse, pilgrim, ashimmu, bhaalgorn bonuses must be changed if this is coming.


It means a NOS Killsmore CAP and drains more CAP.
It means a NEUT Killsmore CAP at the same cap cost.

Right?

Oh and the Bloodraider ships are getting their NOS bonus changed to NOS+NEUT bonus. Devs confirmed this in their posts some pages back in this thread.

Tidas Andrommeda
We The People
Posted - 2007.08.08 21:18:00 - [1572]
 

Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:21:07
Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:20:13
Originally by: zero2espect
Quote:
In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back

Think before posting kthx ;D


simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep?

again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem.

some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about.


Sorry but you DO need to think more than, well, you think you need to think.

***ar has a point, sure we can shoot our weapons, but out tank (whether it is speed or otherwise) is completely gone, just like yours. In order to sustain our tanks, we may use cap boosters which would put our cap above yours anyway in which case your nos would work again and ours wouldn't.

Pretty much the only time I could see a ship purposefully grounding its cap to 0 and not boosting it back above yours is a passive shield tanker, and a damn good one (drake + myrmi).

If they ground their cap its 0 anyway so NO nos/neut system will work so you're boned with either system.

STOP THE STEREOTYPES!
MINNIE AND CALDARI LOVE US OUR CAP TOO! :D

btw...I do fly all four races and am quite familiar with your capacitor troubles (I don't fly any other t2 ships other than minnie which is why I haven't commented on the khanid changes)

Summary:
1. Target cap = 0 means you can't use either nos
2. Passive Shield tankers are perhaps the only ones to ground their cap intentionally in order to gain a tactical advantage (this may change as new fits come out after the patch but for now this is fairly true.)
3. Nos is better for Amarr now because when their cap is above yours you no longer get Your nos amount - their nos amount, resulting in better cap recharge.
4. As you've pointed out and I have noticed through my usage of Amarr, alot of fits balance out at 40%-50% which is worse than any other race. Therefore, you're more likely to get any use out of the new nos system.

Sorry for destroying your argument :(

I'll be back if you wish to try one that makes senseRolling Eyes

Edit: Spelling mistakes Embarassed

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.08 21:53:00 - [1573]
 

Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda
Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:21:07
Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:20:13
Originally by: zero2espect
Quote:
In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back

Think before posting kthx ;D


simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep?

again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem.

some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about.


Sorry but you DO need to think more than, well, you think you need to think.

***ar has a point, sure we can shoot our weapons, but out tank (whether it is speed or otherwise) is completely gone, just like yours. In order to sustain our tanks, we may use cap boosters which would put our cap above yours anyway in which case your nos would work again and ours wouldn't.

Pretty much the only time I could see a ship purposefully grounding its cap to 0 and not boosting it back above yours is a passive shield tanker, and a damn good one (drake + myrmi).

If they ground their cap its 0 anyway so NO nos/neut system will work so you're boned with either system.

STOP THE STEREOTYPES!
MINNIE AND CALDARI LOVE US OUR CAP TOO! :D

btw...I do fly all four races and am quite familiar with your capacitor troubles (I don't fly any other t2 ships other than minnie which is why I haven't commented on the khanid changes)

Summary:
1. Target cap = 0 means you can't use either nos
2. Passive Shield tankers are perhaps the only ones to ground their cap intentionally in order to gain a tactical advantage (this may change as new fits come out after the patch but for now this is fairly true.)
3. Nos is better for Amarr now because when their cap is above yours you no longer get Your nos amount - their nos amount, resulting in better cap recharge.
4. As you've pointed out and I have noticed through my usage of Amarr, alot of fits balance out at 40%-50% which is worse than any other race. Therefore, you're more likely to get any use out of the new nos system.

Sorry for destroying your argument :(

I'll be back if you wish to try one that makes senseRolling Eyes

Edit: Spelling mistakes Embarassed


Also please note the disadvantages Passive Tanks will have using Neutz that i pointed out before. (Powergrid, Low Cap, low DPS, Mediocre Passive tank)

All that to be able to take out 1-2 NOS on a enemy ship?
Id say its better of improving the Tank and DPS and have a greater chance against the NOS ship and also stand greater chances vs non NOS ships.

Tidas Andrommeda
We The People
Posted - 2007.08.08 21:55:00 - [1574]
 

Originally by: ***er

Also please note the disadvantages Passive Tanks will have using Neutz that i pointed out before. (Powergrid, Low Cap, low DPS, Mediocre Passive tank)

All that to be able to take out 1-2 NOS on a enemy ship?
Id say its better of improving the Tank and DPS and have a greater chance against the NOS ship and also stand greater chances vs non NOS ships.


Thanks

I like people on the forums backing me up for a change :D

Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.08.08 22:03:00 - [1575]
 

Originally by: zero2espect
simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd).

As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.)

Originally by: zero2espect
meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep?

What's the problem? A nos will help you keep your cap up. If you want to kill the other person's cap, it's not going to come for free. The fact that you could do it for free is the whole point of this nerf in the first place!

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.08 22:44:00 - [1576]
 

Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Originally by: zero2espect
simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd).

As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.)



Again the Passive Tanker would SACRIFICE alot, to much to make it doable with Neutralizers compared to what it would gain.

However Passivetanks have already been nerfed once, and will still be the only tank type that are not effected by Neutralizers.
Passivetankers give up alot to get those strong passive tanks thou. Like speed/Tackle/DPS.

Another way you could see it is; today a passive tank works against NOS and neutralizers, after the patch theyll counter the Neutralizer.
Do you really believe theyll be a problem?

Tidas Andrommeda
We The People
Posted - 2007.08.08 22:52:00 - [1577]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Originally by: zero2espect
simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd).

As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.)



Again the Passive Tanker would SACRIFICE alot, to much to make it doable with Neutralizers compared to what it would gain.

However Passivetanks have already been nerfed once, and will still be the only tank type that are not effected by Neutralizers.
Passivetankers give up alot to get those strong passive tanks thou. Like speed/Tackle/DPS.

Another way you could see it is; today a passive tank works against NOS and neutralizers, after the patch theyll counter the Neutralizer.
Do you really believe theyll be a problem?


The problem isn't with the drake so much as it is with the myrmidon.

I can get a cap stable fit to work using 2 neuts and still have about 250+ hp/s regen with decent resists which is more than a T2 extra large shield booster, a BS module. Unlike the module, if cap hits 0 you will still get the 250+ hp/s

5 Ogre IIs are uneffected by cap recharge and will output same dps regardless of fit. (unless you fit drone specific mods/rigs)

NOTE: The figures quoted are at peak recharge which is at about 30-35% shield capacity


Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.08 23:13:00 - [1578]
 

Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda
Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Originally by: zero2espect
simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd).

As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.)



Again the Passive Tanker would SACRIFICE alot, to much to make it doable with Neutralizers compared to what it would gain.

However Passivetanks have already been nerfed once, and will still be the only tank type that are not effected by Neutralizers.
Passivetankers give up alot to get those strong passive tanks thou. Like speed/Tackle/DPS.

Another way you could see it is; today a passive tank works against NOS and neutralizers, after the patch theyll counter the Neutralizer.
Do you really believe theyll be a problem?


The problem isn't with the drake so much as it is with the myrmidon.

I can get a cap stable fit to work using 2 neuts and still have about 250+ hp/s regen with decent resists which is more than a T2 extra large shield booster, a BS module. Unlike the module, if cap hits 0 you will still get the 250+ hp/s

5 Ogre IIs are uneffected by cap recharge and will output same dps regardless of fit. (unless you fit drone specific mods/rigs)

NOTE: The figures quoted are at peak recharge which is at about 30-35% shield capacity




Hmm im no Myrmi expert but, is it capstable with2 neuts and 3-4guns?
Can it tackle or did you use all mids and lows for Tank+Cap.
5 unbonused heavy drone as only dps... and no backupdrones...

Im not saying it would suck but it seems it is sacrificng alot...
I cant see it as a new NOSdomi.. not by miles.

Tidas Andrommeda
We The People
Posted - 2007.08.08 23:55:00 - [1579]
 

Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 23:59:33
REPLY TO FAAGER MOVED TO RELEVENT THREAD

LINK COMING SOON

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.09 00:31:00 - [1580]
 

Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda
Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 23:59:33
REPLY TO FAAGER MOVED TO RELEVENT THREAD

LINK COMING SOON


/beer Cool

Tidas Andrommeda
We The People
Posted - 2007.08.09 00:45:00 - [1581]
 

Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 09/08/2007 00:47:16
Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda
Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 23:59:33
REPLY TO FAAGER MOVED TO RELEVENT THREAD

LINK COMING SOON


/beer Cool


OK OK put the beer away

Heres your thread Arrow http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=572140&page=1#3

Edit: This is a thread that calls for the nerf of passive tanking.

zero2espect
Amarr
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2007.08.09 09:21:00 - [1582]
 

/sigh.

has the world gone topsy turvy. a passive shield tanker only needs to keep enuff cap to keep me scrammed and they are immune.

currently the zealot has 5 hi slots. 4 turrets. no missiles. the only mod u can fit is a neut or a nos. period. i've discussed previously how insanely stupid it would be to fit a neut to the zealot so lets forget that and say a nos is fitted.

passive shield tanked drake (hello, a caldari pvp ship) or basically any minmatar passive tanker needs only to hit the scrammer, close the range and the zealot is dead. it's useless. the shield tanker either fits a neut or dumps the cap into the mwd - just making sure there is enough cap every once and a while to keep the scrammer going. this guarantees the zealot (or any other amarr ship) can't nos even the tiniest little bit of cap (it all makes a difference). add to this the fact that even if i can nos to break the scram that's good enough for me. also add to this my maxxed cap skills actually disadvantage me even worse under this scenario.

the alternatives:

* don't deploy this stoopid patch -> we all know ccp's history with accepting feedback so let's forget this hey?
* just try to fit a meaner passive tank than anybody else -> and get absolutely creamed at every gatecamp in the universe because we'll take half an hour to align (because unlike a passive shield tanker we sacrifice agility and speed for tank)
* train a third weapon spec into projectiles -> and forgo all the now even more uselss amarr ship bonuses (cap usage)
* fit a cap booster to every amarr ship -> and lose the most precious amarr commodity, a mid slot. this only delays the inevitable

the sad fact is that this patch does nothing to stop the domi and myrmy energy ganking setups. because either ship with a cap booster can just swap out to a passive tank, neuts and drones and basically do exactly what they do today - little to no impact. hell, if i was a myrmy/domi pilot i'd start training projectiles right now: half neuts, massive drone bay, passive tank, cap booster and the rest autocannons would be actually pretty awesome. timecapsule this statement "This is the single best change for myrmy and domi pilots that there has ever been - and you will all be complaining about it on the forums 6 weeks after the patch goes in". this is not to mention the shield tanking pilots who whould be wetting their pants and urging ccp to hurry up.

as stated amarr simple cannot fit this way, with the only solution re-catogorising neuts/nos as "launchers" and adjusting hi-slots accordingly. sheesh, at this stage i'd be happy to suggest that 50% of the amarr fleet lose its useless ship bonuses and made into nos bonus making amarr really the only nos race (which it is supposed to be).

the real reason that the curse is so loved by amarr pilots is becuase of 5 things.

1. for amarr it has a huge drone bay.
2. it has more than 3 mid slots.
3. it has a bonus that is actually useful (unlike 99% of amarr ships).
4. it isn't (although it is) gimped by having a useless utility slot.
5. it looks good.

now it's just another useless ship and all the others suck even harder than they used to.

anyway. the more responses i write in here, the more i realise i'm wasting my time...

99% of amarr pilots should think this is a horrible idea...

but the hordes of fanboy minmatar pilots and caldari pilots looking for some1 else to cop a nerfing mixed in with the domi and myrmy pilots who should be trying to hide their smiles as they switch training to projectiles will have their way.

the carebears couldn't care less, ccp aint nerfing torps or fiddling with bpos are they?

no dev plays as amarr.

so it's all upside really.

the only downside is amarr pilots whinging the forums and wishing things could just once, turn the right way for them. ppl can't read these forums unless they've already subscribed anyway, so what do ccp care?

zero signing out from this thread and thinks about how to consolidate accounts

Areolas
Posted - 2007.08.09 11:28:00 - [1583]
 

Edited by: Areolas on 09/08/2007 11:39:49
Edited by: Areolas on 09/08/2007 11:38:50


Nipplator
Beasts of Burden
D3f3ctiv3 Coll3ctiv3 Allianc3
Posted - 2007.08.09 11:43:00 - [1584]
 

Heretic (Interdictor)

* Hardpoints: 6 launchers (+1), 2 turrets (-2)
* Fitting: 230tf (+19tf), 57mw (-9mw)

Bonuses

* 5% bonus to rocket damage per DD level
* 10% bonus to explosion velocity per DD level
* 10% bonus to missile velocity per Interdictor level
* 10% Interdiction Sphere Launcher ROF per Interdictor level (no change)

The Heretic has similar bonuses to the Flycatcher, but the rockets only damage bonus and the low CPU makes rockets more suitable than standard missiles. The Explosion velocity bonus makes the Heretic better for taking down high speed targets vs. low speed, low signature radius targets for the Flycatcher.

my heretic is too slow for close range and the fitting is too tight for tanking and tackle. so i don't see this helping!!!!! Confused

Banker Bilo
Deniz Mahsulleri Ofisi
Posted - 2007.08.09 12:17:00 - [1585]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Father Muslum
With this patch "NOS AMOUNT BONUS" means nothing. So all curse, pilgrim, ashimmu, bhaalgorn bonuses must be changed if this is coming.


It means a NOS Killsmore CAP and drains more CAP.
It means a NEUT Killsmore CAP at the same cap cost.

Right?

Oh and the Bloodraider ships are getting their NOS bonus changed to NOS+NEUT bonus. Devs confirmed this in their posts some pages back in this thread.


You have absolutely no idea about nos ships. It won't matter if you take 30 or 60 , after a while you can't take anymore cap from enemy so nos amount bonuses are useless. This is a NOS patch not "use neutralizer instead" patch. Among many good changes, devs selected the most crap one. Not to mention that you can't kill capital ships now.

Moon Beans
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:08:00 - [1586]
 

The way i see it is what this all comes down to is not the ship thats being nerfed its the SP's wasted training something like the pilgrim that is now useless, IMHO nos was too good it shouldnt have been that good to start with then people wouldnt have wasted time training for the ships that are designed to use it or would have done so with the knowledge of what they would end up with. This is not the fault of the player but rather the shortcomings of the developers, the ones that thought NOS was a good idea to start with and waisted so many peoples time and money. What I say is go ahead with the NOS nerf it will make the gameplay better that i dont disagree with, but give the people back their SP's wasted on amarr recons let them put it somewhere else or give them back their money for the gametime spent training these now useless skills for something that is your fault CCP your poor design that you can only fix with a nerf.

Moon Beans
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:27:00 - [1587]
 

first day of the patch i suggest all amarr pilots petition continusly for weeks on end until ccp give us our SP's back so we can be a race that aint nerfed...

petition
petition
petition
petition
petition
petition
petition
petition
petition
petition
petition

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:44:00 - [1588]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 09/08/2007 14:45:20
Originally by: Banker Bilo
Not to mention that you can't kill capital ships now.


While there are some problems with cap warfare specialized ships draining carriers isn't that much of a problem. You can use nosses to power neuts till a very low cap level of the carrier.

Like drain yourself with neuts till 0-5%, then use noses to get yourself up enough to use a neut, use the neut again, etc.

Lee KyongAh
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:11:00 - [1589]
 

wow this is a long thread.

Main issues with nos:
A battleship can't instadrain an interceptor anymore, and some say neut will do the job and some say it won't. If the neut will do the job then I don't see this as a problem if it dosn't then..... :(

Nos Domi is worthless now and neut domi just don't work.
Well I can't say how worthless the nos domi will be or if a neut domi will work or not since I don't fly gallente. However in my mind then there is something wrong with the very concept of a nos domi as one of the most respected/feared ships in the game. The ship has no bonuses to nos and yet to fit as many nos as possible seems to be a setup that is vastly superior to rails/blasters that actually benefit from the ships bonuses.

Some say that giving up a gun is a tradeoff for the nos. Yes it is a tradeoff but the thing is that a domi with it's drones alone has a dps that is good enough to kill every other battleship once it's cap is gone, passive shield tanks excluded(or so I am told, I don't fly caldari). This makes the nos domi into an "I win" ship in most cases. So yes you give up a gun and get something much better instead.

Some have said that the Nos can be used by every race and we should just learn to fit our ships to counter it, and that it creates a ballance between new and old players. Well the Gallente droneboats are the only ships with an unaffected dps that is large enough to effectively be able to sacrifice their weapons in favor of a nos, fit nos on a maelstrom or whatever and it's drones will kill you sometime next year, unless you mannage to kill them first, and if you do then it has no replacements (assuming heavy drones)

Well the domi is a blaster/rail boat as well as a drone carrier don't see why a neut domi should work any better than say a heavily shield tanked neut scorpion.

Another issue that has been brought up is that making "nos worhless" removes choices and ccp could just as well build the mods into the ships. Well choices are still there, but now the ship might actually have it's best performance with using modules that are associated with it's bonuses. In fact I believe there is more of a choice now than before, since nos was THE domi setup.

As for ballance between old and new players well personally I would see it as utterly unfair if I could consistently win against a 30 mil sp pure pvp pilot, or if a lvl 10 fighter could win against a lvl 60-70 fighter in wow, but well guess that is just me...
The amarr recons are ships that actually get a bonus to nos/neut so that is something entirely different. These ships are kind of worthless in large gangs so in my mind they should be very strong solo. I don't favor any kind of "I Win" setups so if they are as unstopable as they seem to be in here (I can't fly them so can't tell) then yes I agree that they need a nerf.


As for the Khanid changes well wonder why caldari don't use these missiles ???

Just a guess they are inferrior to standard missiles ...

Well I am gona try them out anyway





Tidas Andrommeda
We The People
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:38:00 - [1590]
 

Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 09/08/2007 18:38:44
@Zero: You won't be missed. If you haven't noticed many pilots that fly Amarr (me included) don't mind this nos change as much as you do and yes, I fly Amarr in PvE and PvP so stow that argument where I'll never see it again. As to purposefully dumping cap, the ONLY ships that could do what you suggest are passively tanked ships (which, unless I'm missing something, include the Myrmi and the Drake exclusively. You could passive tank other ships but I'm not sure they would even come close to the effectiveness of the Drake or Myrmi).
And unlike an armor tanker, passive tankers get locked in 3 seconds cause of their gigantic sig radius thanks to our LSE IIs. Open your eyes...it stops the nosdomi cause now it can't drain your cap AND run a dual rep setup into infinity. Now it has to fit neuts to completely destroy your cap.

Check your facts...I don't have to sign in to get to these forums, I just have to sign in to reply. The forums are completely public as far as reading goes. It just seems the public dismisses your weak arguments and takes it like a normal adult would. This doesn't destroy anything more than what it was meant to. The myrmi will still be fairly effective but thats an issue with passive tanking and not nos.

@Banker: It is a "use neuts instead patch"

Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Migration to Neutralizers
With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before.


Note this is from a dev post in this very thread.

Also you only need to keep a cappie under 70% cap since it takes that much to jump out. Keeping your own cap under 70% to ensure this seems...well...too easy.

@Moon: Ever play a game before in your life? There is never a perfect initial release and there are almost always balance issues.

This is how it works and this is what patches are for.


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