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LvxOccvlta
Posted - 2007.08.06 09:40:00 - [1501]
 

Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 06/08/2007 09:41:52
I've got an idea on fixing the curse...and the pilgrim...


If this proposed Nos nerf goes online, you should give the curse and pilgrim a NEGATIVE cap-usage bonus for Energy Neutralizers, which would replenish their caps instead of drawing cap away.


ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2007.08.06 11:27:00 - [1502]
 

The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu.

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.08.06 12:13:00 - [1503]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu.


Exactly. NOS was not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for nos and thats good so. The problem was drone boats. that was needed to fix, and they need still a fix.

Sasaki Dita
Posted - 2007.08.06 14:35:00 - [1504]
 

Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34
This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed.

silken mouth
Gallente
Core Genes Applied Technologies
Posted - 2007.08.06 15:12:00 - [1505]
 

instead of a dump nos nerf, they should make something up to counter makros and farmers.

Bentula
Posted - 2007.08.06 15:12:00 - [1506]
 

Edited by: Bentula on 06/08/2007 15:12:57
Training for the malediction atm(and vengeance ofc), finally a ceptor i like. Yes its true, if you get into webrange you might get into trouble. But you dont HAVE to fly in webrange, in 90% of non solo situations it would suffice to get a point on a target. I just like to have the option to get a web on people, like when i see the hostile hasnt locked me yet.

Vengeance i basicly want to fly because it will be my first frigate sized ship that can run disruptor, weapons, mwd AND some sort of tank/gank setup.

Also rockets, even without a velocity bonus, will spell certain death to any ceptor that gets into MY webrange(malediction now, dotn really expect ceptors being dense enough to get close to a vengeance Laughing).

Malediction is a do or die kind of ship now, i like it YARRRR!!.

P.S. The khanid ships all have improved shields and weaker armor compared to normal amarr ships. Now that they are clearly armortankers can we get some more armor hp and less shield hp?

Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.08.06 17:22:00 - [1507]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu.

/signed. Nosferatu weren't overpowered, they were just a must-have module with practically no downsides and select ships using a full rack of them were pretty much invincible 1v1.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2007.08.06 18:35:00 - [1508]
 

Both look awesome,especially the khanid one,bravo \o/.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.06 19:46:00 - [1509]
 

Originally by: Sasaki Dita
Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34
This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed.


Funny... because a few posts back there's a poster that was very pleased with the changes saying they were much more for the better. Also, the Sacrilege changes seem to be really nice, unless, of course, you either have no missile skills, are too hardheaded to train missile skills, or both.

RisingDragon
Posted - 2007.08.06 19:52:00 - [1510]
 

The Nos nerf is way to much, The currents ships which are classified as nos boats already have a penalty, its called poor DPS! Ofc nos leechs and neutralises, why on earth did you call it an energy 'VAMPIRE' if you didnt intend it to be for that purpose. Nos was the only module i feared in a 1v1 fight, it was balanced now its just useless! Even looking at neutralisers - they seriously need beefed up, i mean come on ccp, look at the best named heavy neutraliser compared to the t2 version, it takes 250mw more to fit 8 cpu more and costs you 100 more cap to use per round, it makes t2 pointless! if you want to nerf something try swinging the bat at the vagabond.

Jacknife Sanguinarius
Posted - 2007.08.06 20:54:00 - [1511]
 

:( I primarily chose Amarr ships because I hate reloading.

And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :(

Maybe actually add Khanid Mk II ships? That way those that like the current Khanid ships can keep using them?

But it's really frustrating since I've been slowly working my way up to a Damnation and now that idea is blown. I can either switch to missles, and try not to get too mad about my wasted gunnery skills, or just give up my dream. *sniffles*

I can see the reasoning for missles to guns. But that's REALLY extreme for an Amarr ship type. Maybe beaf up their shields over armor more instead?

Jacknife Sanguinarius
Posted - 2007.08.06 20:54:00 - [1512]
 

Not to mention the fact, that the Khanid ships just look cooler than regular Amarr ships.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2007.08.06 21:31:00 - [1513]
 

Originally by: ***er

But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, at least some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation.



You're not going to see more Khanid ships, if fact you'll see less. They where already on the short list, I fly around in a Damnation and people say WOW that's one cool ass looking ship.

The one thing people and more importantly CCP seem to forget is some Khanid ships are not designed for PVP. The Damnation being one of them. It's a support ship, like the Guardian. Although it's name sounds otherwise, this Fleet Command ship is not meant for close up firefights.

I've posted all though this thread, and like the person you quoted I trained a long time to get a Damnation, and trained all it's skills to use it effectively. Now 50% of those skills are tossed out the window.

I would rather be shown a new "toy" and be told "Here, you need these skills to fly it" then have my toy tossed into the shredder and be told, "Here's your new toy. Oh by the way you'll need to train for a month to use it as effectively as the one we just shredded, and you'll also need to use it differently, so get use to the new play style"

This is exactly what CCP has done.

And those that thing it's a buff, really haven't flown the Khanid ships. They didn't need a buff and they certainly didn't need this nerf.

I would also like to remind people that these Khanid changes where suggest by a player, who probably didn't have statistical information available to CCP. He made assumptions probably due to his game style. He probably likes close in combat so of course he is going to suggest bonuses to sub 10km range setups.

If I was to suggest changes to Khanid ships I'd want Sniping bonuses. For the same reason as there are no dedicated close range combat ships, I propose a Sniping setup. I'm talking 300km sniping range with low damage on a Damnation. Which is exactly what a fleet command ship should be like.

300km away from the battle, running gang mods, performing little damage but helping none the less. Heavy Tanking so when a Dread comes in and locks down and targets the Fleet Command ship can take a hit or two, before the command ship has to warp out.

There is no two ways about it, Fleet Command ship should NOT be considered in the Thick of battle, it's a support ship. If you want to be in the middle dealing damage that is what the Field Command ships are meant for.

Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2007.08.06 22:54:00 - [1514]
 

Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 06/08/2007 22:55:25
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: ViolenTUK
The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu.


Exactly. NOS was not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for nos and thats good so. The problem was drone boats. that was needed to fix, and they need still a fix.


Interestingly, this works with a few word substitutions for a lot of things. . .

Originally by: Damned Force

Exactly. WCS was not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for WCS and thats good so.


Originally by: Damned Force

Exactly. NanoBS were not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for 7 unstacking nerfed speed mods and thats good so. The problem was drone boats. that was needed to fix, and they need still a fix.



Originally by: Sasaki Dita
Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34
This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed.


Compare ANY dictor with the Sabre and you can call that dictor worthless. Particularly the poor Eris, now that the Heretic is no longer a split weapon dictor, similar to a rocket-equipped flycatcher now. A lot of people used Eris and Heretic to let their wallets recover between their Sabres getting primaried anyway.

Drash Kammatarr
German Cyberdome Corp
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2007.08.06 22:58:00 - [1515]
 

Edited by: Drash Kammatarr on 06/08/2007 22:58:37
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
As noted above, the ships still retain a significant advantage since they can neutralize cap more efficiently. Ships such as the curse can mitigate the Nosferatu equilibrium by spreading out the nosferatus and concentrate the neutralizers on a single target.
...



WOW!
Really well thought out, but do you mind if I ask:
What if you are fighting only one target? Rolling Eyes




Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2007.08.06 23:18:00 - [1516]
 

Originally by: LvxOccvlta
Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 06/08/2007 09:41:52
I've got an idea on fixing the curse...and the pilgrim...


If this proposed Nos nerf goes online, you should give the curse and pilgrim a NEGATIVE cap-usage bonus for Energy Neutralizers, which would replenish their caps instead of drawing cap away.




Yeah, yeah, they weren't overpowered enough before. . . lets make them go from powerful solo ships that would beat anything BC or below 1v1 (and PvP BS with a competent Curse pilot and good fitting/skills/implants), to OMGWTFBBQ-overpowered.

/sarcasm off

Lvx, part of the POINT of this patch is to make cap warfare not a no-brainer.

Lets see, if they GAIN cap for using neuts (I'll assume at the same rate as an old nos). . .

They kill the enemy's cap even faster, twice as fast even, assuming an old full-nos fit. They become even more powerful.

They continue to gain cap even after the enemy is drained to 0, as neutralizers don't rely on the enemy having cap to work. They become even more overpowered.

Due to this combination of effects, the nano/neut curse becomes the new flavor of the (until CCP looks at them and takes the nerfbat to such madness). I give it either 3 days or 3 months.

I'm sorry, but your suggestion is not reasonable from a balance point of view. Instead of requiring a good Curse pilot to solo a BS, ANY Curse pilot could solo a BS.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.06 23:42:00 - [1517]
 

Do we already know when are the changes being uploaded on Tranquility ?

Thank you



zero2espect
Amarr
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2007.08.07 00:29:00 - [1518]
 

still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see.

oh well. maybe that is a concession that actually this does not do ANYTHING for 90% of the amarr ships (apart from making them easy targets that is)...

and to answer the question from before, to be honest, i'm a professional amarr pilot. all i fly is amarrian ships. apart from 3 examples i can show you where a nos-domi blew me away (me being in a heretic) and correctly - the chances are that i will not survive - but that's the risks you take in the big game, isn't it?

my energy management, gunnery, armour skills are all maxxed.

i have never been taken down by nos. i have died because i've had no cap left (because we need massive amounts of cap to shoot and rep with) but that's a completely different story. and guess what, this patch makes this situation worse. i am being denied the ability to use a amarrian weapon, on amarrian ships that have a slot "dedicated" for it to be fitted (because you can't fit anything else) to solve a problem that is largely amarrian in origin.

if i hear one more time "just fit a neut" i think i'm going to go postal - this makes the problem worse. the same with the "but you have better cap regen" - yes that's true, becuase we have to, but it doesn't matter how fast you regen cap, you use it faster than you can make it in amarrian ships.

it's just a stupid idea. all to fix a gallente imbalance issue.

LvxOccvlta
Posted - 2007.08.07 00:31:00 - [1519]
 

Originally by: Jurgen Cartis
Originally by: LvxOccvlta
Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 06/08/2007 09:41:52
I've got an idea on fixing the curse...and the pilgrim...


If this proposed Nos nerf goes online, you should give the curse and pilgrim a NEGATIVE cap-usage bonus for Energy Neutralizers, which would replenish their caps instead of drawing cap away.




Yeah, yeah, they weren't overpowered enough before. . . lets make them go from powerful solo ships that would beat anything BC or below 1v1 (and PvP BS with a competent Curse pilot and good fitting/skills/implants), to OMGWTFBBQ-overpowered.

/sarcasm off

Lvx, part of the POINT of this patch is to make cap warfare not a no-brainer.

Lets see, if they GAIN cap for using neuts (I'll assume at the same rate as an old nos). . .

They kill the enemy's cap even faster, twice as fast even, assuming an old full-nos fit. They become even more powerful.

They continue to gain cap even after the enemy is drained to 0, as neutralizers don't rely on the enemy having cap to work. They become even more overpowered.

Due to this combination of effects, the nano/neut curse becomes the new flavor of the (until CCP looks at them and takes the nerfbat to such madness). I give it either 3 days or 3 months.

I'm sorry, but your suggestion is not reasonable from a balance point of view. Instead of requiring a good Curse pilot to solo a BS, ANY Curse pilot could solo a BS.


Well the curse needs extra cap to function somehow, and it certainly won't get that from using the proposed Nos.

Cap rechargers are also not workable because of the gimpy cargo hold.

Where do you propose ships like the Curse can get the cap it needs, if Nosferatus won't do it?


MrLobster
Cosmic Odyssey
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.08.07 00:31:00 - [1520]
 

Sig radius based and stacking nurf.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.07 01:28:00 - [1521]
 

Originally by: zero2espect
still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see.

oh well. maybe that is a concession that actually this does not do ANYTHING for 90% of the amarr ships (apart from making them easy targets that is)...

and to answer the question from before, to be honest, i'm a professional amarr pilot. all i fly is amarrian ships. apart from 3 examples i can show you where a nos-domi blew me away (me being in a heretic) and correctly - the chances are that i will not survive - but that's the risks you take in the big game, isn't it?

my energy management, gunnery, armour skills are all maxxed.

i have never been taken down by nos. i have died because i've had no cap left (because we need massive amounts of cap to shoot and rep with) but that's a completely different story. and guess what, this patch makes this situation worse. i am being denied the ability to use a amarrian weapon, on amarrian ships that have a slot "dedicated" for it to be fitted (because you can't fit anything else) to solve a problem that is largely amarrian in origin.

if i hear one more time "just fit a neut" i think i'm going to go postal - this makes the problem worse. the same with the "but you have better cap regen" - yes that's true, becuase we have to, but it doesn't matter how fast you regen cap, you use it faster than you can make it in amarrian ships.

it's just a stupid idea. all to fix a gallente imbalance issue.


Do you even read my reponses?

How are you being DENIED USING NOS? it works very well on your CAP hungry ships, and it works not at all on you anymore.

You also dont need to fear NEUTs as much as NOS since 1 they are much harder to fit and just not the all around wpn NOS was. YOUR NOS will work against NEUTz aswell..

And i not clueless about amarr ships, my IRL mates who i have been playing with since 2004 have almost maxxed out all laser skills, Cap skills maxxed and armor skills very high. Now hes overall enjoying the NOS change(he wasnt flying the reconns thou and he said the training for them was pushed back now ;) ), have already startet thinkering with a NEUTapoc for fun. (He is the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo("Raven"-well), wich i mentioned some posts back)

Im not saying this is amarr buff, but comments like "im being denied using NOS on my amarr ship with 0 cap now" is just so wrong, and with your experience making such comments is really strange. (You state you always run out of Cap and NOS wont help, and you said you are denied using NOS)

About the "Fit a neut". Its for anti smallship, do you fire all your lasers on a small frig when none hits? No you fire the neut to get away or stop his MWD.

Also i posted some ideas about a NEUTapoc before (short: 6Neuts, 2 Launchers+drones and so on) so there has been postsfrom the "fans", you just missed them. I dont know how it fits or how much cap it will have in spare after draining. However my Amarrpilot friend is optimistic about it if he can make a good fit.
(General idea is as somewhat solomobile ala NOSdomi MK2 or in gang absolutley destroying one ships Cap and Cap recharge while still maintaining 30%++ and fire missies and drones for some DPS to a capless target and using spare 30%++ cap to repair).

Some light numbercrunching discovered an apoc would get alot of spare %cap well over 40% after completely killing most other races cap close to 0. (With max skills and best modules ofcourse)

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.07 12:19:00 - [1522]
 

Originally by: Jacknife Sanguinarius
And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :(



Heh... probably the #1 reason was because they were cheaper than the non-Khanid ships and that's because they generally aren't that good... but if you're in a gang, you don't need to be the best... just able to fit some weapons, tackle, and/or EW to contribute.

Akano
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 - [1523]
 

The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it).
I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests !

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 - [1524]
 

Quote:
still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see.


There's already a Curse Fitting Thread w.r.t. NOS changes in Ships and Modules (where it belongs) with a number of replies already.

Don Shadow
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 - [1525]
 

Originally by: ***er

.....................................................

Do you even read my reponses?

How are you being DENIED USING NOS? it works very well on your CAP hungry ships, and it works not at all on you anymore.

You also dont need to fear NEUTs as much as NOS since 1 they are much harder to fit and just not the all around wpn NOS was. YOUR NOS will work against NEUTz aswell..

And i not clueless about amarr ships, my IRL mates who i have been playing with since 2004 have almost maxxed out all laser skills, Cap skills maxxed and armor skills very high. Now hes overall enjoying the NOS change(he wasnt flying the reconns thou and he said the training for them was pushed back now ;) ), have already startet thinkering with a NEUTapoc for fun. (He is the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo("Raven"-well), wich i mentioned some posts back)

Im not saying this is amarr buff, but comments like "im being denied using NOS on my amarr ship with 0 cap now" is just so wrong, and with your experience making such comments is really strange. (You state you always run out of Cap and NOS wont help, and you said you are denied using NOS)

About the "Fit a neut". Its for anti smallship, do you fire all your lasers on a small frig when none hits? No you fire the neut to get away or stop his MWD.

Also i posted some ideas about a NEUTapoc before (short: 6Neuts, 2 Launchers+drones and so on) so there has been postsfrom the "fans", you just missed them. I dont know how it fits or how much cap it will have in spare after draining. However my Amarrpilot friend is optimistic about it if he can make a good fit.
(General idea is as somewhat solomobile ala NOSdomi MK2 or in gang absolutley destroying one ships Cap and Cap recharge while still maintaining 30%++ and fire missies and drones for some DPS to a capless target and using spare 30%++ cap to repair).

Some light numbercrunching discovered an apoc would get alot of spare %cap well over 40% after completely killing most other races cap close to 0. (With max skills and best modules ofcourse)


1. pls tell to your mate(the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo!!!?("Raven"-well), wich you mentioned some posts back) to let the PVE for one hour and to go try some PVP... he will learn(and you from him)that PvE and PvP are diferent things...

2. this nos nerf will add more lag to the server...

3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being ****d by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"...

4. allways remember that PvP is not the same thing with doing missions...

5 CCP Fix the LAAAAGGGGG, fix the pos problems, fix the desync problems... noses are ok in this form, whay the hell you are trying to fix somthing that works fine???!

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.07 12:30:00 - [1526]
 

Originally by: Akano
The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it).
I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests !


Yes... already posted a number of times and already addressed by the Dev post (they're going to look into it) some number of pages back.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.07 12:34:00 - [1527]
 

Quote:
3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being ****d by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"...


So you mean you'll have to actually pick your targets instead of F1-F5, launch drones, /afk fixin a sammich, come back and loot the wreck now? I don't think many players would have a problem with that. Wink

Don Shadow
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.08.07 13:04:00 - [1528]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Quote:
3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being ****d by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"...


So you mean you'll have to actually pick your targets instead of F1-F5, launch drones, /afk fixin a sammich, come back and loot the wreck now? I don't think many players would have a problem with that. Wink


hehehe, are you sure? do you have any ideea of what bonuses the curse will have after this "nos nerf"? if the problem is the curse, whay they nerf the nos??? they can just change the recon bonuses, if is such an "unbalanced" problem;
P.S. to all those " Crying or Very sadweeeeeeeeeee they are killing us, stop them!", do you know that are some items in game, like smartbombs, or fof missile...?
edit: oh, i forgot they are not used in empire space... Twisted Evil

Akano
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.08.07 13:39:00 - [1529]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Akano
The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it).
I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests !


Yes... already posted a number of times and already addressed by the Dev post (they're going to look into it) some number of pages back.


Well ... thanks.
Looks like i have missed it ! Do you know where the pilgrim's part is ?

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.07 13:59:00 - [1530]
 

Originally by: Akano

Well ... thanks.
Looks like i have missed it ! Do you know where the pilgrim's part is ?


Unfortunately, no more concrete information has been given by the Devs yet other than "they're looking at it"... As a Curse/Pilgrim pilot myself, I'm curious as well. I think the faction ships (Bhaal/etc) are pretty clear to have the bonus applied to neuts as well as nos and the Curse looks to be only a little weakened (still strong and viable according to numerous Curse pilots playing around on test) so not much there. I think everyone is waiting on the Pilgrim information.


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