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Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 17:43:00 - [1411]
 

Originally by: Aramendel

It has a disadvantage vs the other recons vs med+ gangs. It is not useless there, but it is less effective than its alternatives. What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing. Now it is plain out less effective on average than the other recons.



Would be nice if you backed up with examples of how other reconns can solo better. I mean there are suggestions and builds using for example Capacitor Boosters to effectively kill Even BS sized ships solo with Curse, dunno about Pilgrim.

I dont believe many other reconns got the power kill BSes, but prove me wrong. Just would be nice with some constructive arguments explaining why you think other reconns do the job as good or better. That way other experienced reconn fighters can add or disaprove of your logic.

Im not saying your wrong, just give some examples, not everyone are as good as reconns and can simply out your comment of as a "noob-comment".

As it stands imo is that amarr reconns are taking a hit undeniable. But ppl saying its still alot better then other reconns soloing gives examples how it can still be 1on1 boat.

I also agree with you that CAPwarfare is for smaller battles, and TD is subpar in Big fights and even medium fights.

Wyliee
Taurus Inc
THE KLINGONS
Posted - 2007.08.04 17:56:00 - [1412]
 

Edited by: Wyliee on 04/08/2007 17:55:59


http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=568837&page=1

this is worth reading.....

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2007.08.04 18:17:00 - [1413]
 

Originally by: ***er
I personally dislike all of these changes, and not just because they nerf half my fleet or the changes are unworkable or unadaptable. I oppose them because I am a 42 year old Amarr child and I expect you to treat me as such. You are taking and you are not giving and just like a child, I don't like having my toys taken away from me.

Most see these changes as a Boost to amarr overall. Cap being safer in space, Amarr having advantage in the new CAPwarfare, NOS Saving Amarr ships more often then others and so on...

All these points has been repeated over and over again.
The changes boost the amarr fleet and ppl have already started adapting and working around it thinking outside of the box.

But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, atleast some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation.

Its true that some amarr ships are nerfed also like Curse and Pilgrim. But as even the most FOTM ppl admits the Curse was a soloPWNmobile. Its also true what ppl say that the new curse could have deserved a better fate. Also the pilgrim ofcourse. There are also ppl stating that with some modification and some new mods in the loop the curse are still a VERY deadly 1on1 foe.

I myself cannot say how useful the curse is after the patch couse i cant fly it, but im trying to ignore the namecallers and read some fact from ppl saying it cant 1on1 fight anymore and from ppl giving new example how they still are dangerous even to BS.


I suggest you look at my quote that you so eagerly pulled and didn't bother to read. It's not a case of if I can adapt or even if these changes to end up being a benefit to Amarr. It's about CCP TAKING things away in order to achieve a goal instead of giving. Anytime you TAKE away features, you'll **** people off. Anytime you add features you'll make people happy. The Khanid changes are merely shuffling around features which ends up being taking.

And as for the Curse/Pilgrim, I can read people's opinions just as well as you can. Until you fly one and you try to take on that Myrmidon or that Gallante HAC or a Domi with 5 heavy drones or even a ship with 5 medium drones... or that Caldari that just ignores your drones and nos and tosses missles at you which you have no defense against, don't tell me what a solowtfpwnmobile it is. I know, I fly both. Some thing's it's very good at. Some things, it's very bad at. And that's good balance in my opinion.


Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.04 18:31:00 - [1414]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Aramendel

It has a disadvantage vs the other recons vs med+ gangs. It is not useless there, but it is less effective than its alternatives. What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing. Now it is plain out less effective on average than the other recons.


Would be nice if you backed up with examples of how other reconns can solo better. I mean there are suggestions and builds using for example Capacitor Boosters to effectively kill Even BS sized ships solo with Curse, dunno about Pilgrim.


Where did I say there that other recons solo better?

"Less effective on average than the other recons." does not mean that, it means literary that for the whole spectrum of solo, small gang, med gang, large gang, fleet taken together other recons have a better *average* performance.

People constantly use seldgehammer arguments a la "other recons cannot solo either" and ignore that those are better in group support.
The curse either needs its solo power to be balanced or needs a buff for its group power.

Quote:
I dont believe many other reconns got the power kill BSes, but prove me wrong. Just would be nice with some constructive arguments explaining why you think other reconns do the job as good or better. That way other experienced reconn fighters can add or disaprove of your logic.


An injected neut curse will still be halfway able to do kill a BS (while being rather fragile).
Other recons are not that bad at that either, though - lachesis and huginns do not have the nos of the curse, but they have in exchange almost 50% more dps.

Another thing which has to be taken into account here is that killing a ratting BS in a belt (if you can catch it before it cloaks or logs) is not all of 1v1.

A curse is rather useless for gate combat since it has no way of stopping enemies from getting back to the gate. A huginn is perfect there, and killing haulers or frigs which try to make a run for empire with valuable cargo is quite often more profitable and does more damage than trying to kill ratters.

In "real" PvP 1v1 targets have quite often also a cap injector which will give a curse significant problems, mainly because it cannot "see" what the cap of its target is, which makes it easy to waste charges.

Another thing which has been ignored or just mentioned as a sidenote is the pilgrim.
The curse can live through the change. It will be weaker, possibly too wek, but it will not be something for the recycle bin.

The pilgrim however..its problem is its range. It has no rangebonus so its 12k or closer to him, which is web distance (it could technically try to hover at 10-12k, but it is not very efficient and an overloaded web will still get him.
It cannot disable all enemy dps like the other recons at this range, so it needs to tank. For which it was dependant on its target cap. It cannot maintain neuts and tank with an injector - and nevermind that it also has only 5 med slots. Scram, propulsion, web, injector..yay for 1 slot for a single TD.

It will be able to kill cruisers 1v1, but that is now something the other recons *really* can do better.

Crash Sagramo
Posted - 2007.08.04 18:41:00 - [1415]
 

Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25
Quote:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.


Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use
nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him.
He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor.

3 ideas:
1) 1 nosf works better than 2+
2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you
3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good.

Strange mechanic. Really Strange

Hands of my toies!

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:12:00 - [1416]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: ***er


Would be nice if you backed up with examples of how other reconns can solo better. I mean there are suggestions and builds using for example Capacitor Boosters to effectively kill Even BS sized ships solo with Curse, dunno about Pilgrim.


Where did I say there that other recons solo better?

"Less effective on average than the other recons." does not mean that, it means literary that for the whole spectrum of solo, small gang, med gang, large gang, fleet taken together other recons have a better *average* performance.

People constantly use seldgehammer arguments a la "other recons cannot solo either" and ignore that those are better in group support.
The curse either needs its solo power to be balanced or needs a buff for its group power.

Quote:
I dont believe many other reconns got the power kill BSes, but prove me wrong. Just would be nice with some constructive arguments explaining why you think other reconns do the job as good or better. That way other experienced reconn fighters can add or disaprove of your logic.


An injected neut curse will still be halfway able to do kill a BS (while being rather fragile).
Other recons are not that bad at that either, though - lachesis and huginns do not have the nos of the curse, but they have in exchange almost 50% more dps.

Another thing which has to be taken into account here is that killing a ratting BS in a belt (if you can catch it before it cloaks or logs) is not all of 1v1.

A curse is rather useless for gate combat since it has no way of stopping enemies from getting back to the gate. A huginn is perfect there, and killing haulers or frigs which try to make a run for empire with valuable cargo is quite often more profitable and does more damage than trying to kill ratters.

In "real" PvP 1v1 targets have quite often also a cap injector which will give a curse significant problems, mainly because it cannot "see" what the cap of its target is, which makes it easy to waste charges.

Another thing which has been ignored or just mentioned as a sidenote is the pilgrim.
The curse can live through the change. It will be weaker, possibly too wek, but it will not be something for the recycle bin.

The pilgrim however..its problem is its range. It has no rangebonus so its 12k or closer to him, which is web distance (it could technically try to hover at 10-12k, but it is not very efficient and an overloaded web will still get him.
It cannot disable all enemy dps like the other recons at this range, so it needs to tank. For which it was dependant on its target cap. It cannot maintain neuts and tank with an injector - and nevermind that it also has only 5 med slots. Scram, propulsion, web, injector..yay for 1 slot for a single TD.

It will be able to kill cruisers 1v1, but that is now something the other recons *really* can do better.


Im sorry i worded that wrong, meant to say explin how other recons can kill similar to or better then Curse. Wasnt trying to sledgehammer you mate, sorry.

A Curse using a 800 can waste more then 800 from his enemie using 800. Gives advantage in Cap war witch it fights and also not all enemies uses 800 and when they dont you got even more advantage. And with the general use of NOS less ppl would i suspect use 800s as many use them as the only means to fight NOS in closerange.

However you bring many other valid points and construct them with godo instead of "Curse is DEAD i mquitting my 25 accounts CCP".

I would also like to bring another thing to the table. Cant you use a Curse to efficently kill of a ships cap and targeting in fleet? Kinda like a damper can kill its locking abilities?

I mean just couse primary dies wihtout wasting all its cap doesnt mean you cant drain other ships like say.. Blasterboats or stop speeders.

I dunno about the pilgrim thou.. does sounds like it could use range instead of power.
Also TDs+drain gotta be good in bigger fights to. Atleast not as bad as ppl say?Confused

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:21:00 - [1417]
 

Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25
Quote:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.


Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use
nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him.
He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor.

3 ideas:
1) 1 nosf works better than 2+
2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you
3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good.

Strange mechanic. Really Strange

Hands of my toies!



I agree with u. is a crazy change that a noob would be able to use same effective or even more effective the nos on a non bonused ship, like a 15m sp pilot with maxed energy skills in a curse or pilgrim(bonused ship). I think this nos change is very very unlucky in the form as it is. Sure the skilled pilot can use neuts, but with this change the nosbonus is useless :(

Again a not correct change from Dev's. Here on forums was lot of good idees for noschange and from all this idees take the worst possible :(

I hope this change would never activated on TQ

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:26:00 - [1418]
 

Originally by: Mark Hamill
Originally by: ***er
I personally dislike all of these changes, and not just because they nerf half my fleet or the changes are unworkable or unadaptable. I oppose them because I am a 42 year old Amarr child and I expect you to treat me as such. You are taking and you are not giving and just like a child, I don't like having my toys taken away from me.

Most see these changes as a Boost to amarr overall. Cap being safer in space, Amarr having advantage in the new CAPwarfare, NOS Saving Amarr ships more often then others and so on...

All these points has been repeated over and over again.
The changes boost the amarr fleet and ppl have already started adapting and working around it thinking outside of the box.

But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, atleast some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation.

Its true that some amarr ships are nerfed also like Curse and Pilgrim. But as even the most FOTM ppl admits the Curse was a soloPWNmobile. Its also true what ppl say that the new curse could have deserved a better fate. Also the pilgrim ofcourse. There are also ppl stating that with some modification and some new mods in the loop the curse are still a VERY deadly 1on1 foe.

I myself cannot say how useful the curse is after the patch couse i cant fly it, but im trying to ignore the namecallers and read some fact from ppl saying it cant 1on1 fight anymore and from ppl giving new example how they still are dangerous even to BS.


I suggest you look at my quote that you so eagerly pulled and didn't bother to read. It's not a case of if I can adapt or even if these changes to end up being a benefit to Amarr. It's about CCP TAKING things away in order to achieve a goal instead of giving. Anytime you TAKE away features, you'll **** people off. Anytime you add features you'll make people happy. The Khanid changes are merely shuffling around features which ends up being taking.

And as for the Curse/Pilgrim, I can read people's opinions just as well as you can. Until you fly one and you try to take on that Myrmidon or that Gallante HAC or a Domi with 5 heavy drones or even a ship with 5 medium drones... or that Caldari that just ignores your drones and nos and tosses missles at you which you have no defense against, don't tell me what a solowtfpwnmobile it is. I know, I fly both. Some thing's it's very good at. Some things, it's very bad at. And that's good balance in my opinion.




Kinda like its better to Boost then to Nerf, i agree its more fun to see new toys boosted then others nerfed or changed. But many amarr have not like you complained about the uselessnest of the khanid ships, and hence CCP is changing them. I think you need to be mad at Amarr crowd who wanted em changed. Its not like CCP could just add another 6-8 ships to amarr...

Its a touchy subject but the big Amarr crowd (dont care if you call your brothers whiners or not) asked for a change, CCP responded knowing that most ppl complained about the crappy split wpn systems sucked (just like on the caldari Gun boats) they probably focused on making it specialized. They choosed Missies+Armor over Shield+Lasers. No matter what theyd choose theyd get the same complains that TOYs where taken away, Amarr dont train other thing then armor+lazers and so on.

I would probaly also be a ticked of if i flew a missile Eagle and all my missies on it got taken away for another turret slot. But the big crowd would probably like it.

About the curse/pilgrim, your bringing some good points for it. Instead of saying ITS DEAD YOU ALL SUCK!!

I appaloud that and the more i read from these more constructive posts defending the curse i believe its taken a heavy beating. This is the stuff that CCP needs to be reading isntead of whines in capital letters.

Bentula
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:35:00 - [1419]
 

Originally by: William DeMeo

Sorry for failing at sarcam Embarassed

But you fail at logic. You have, in your thread made my point. Let me show you:

Quote:
Yes we all know there is stuff called EW and it can be used to disable ships

Quote:
Im not disputing that there are setups to specifically counter nos, but those setups will have huge drawbacks for fighting normal shipsetups.


of course a dampening ship would never be able to kill any other closerange battleship that can't target them. Infact I'm as sure about that as I'm sure a heavy dps ship would never be able to kill any other ship then a nosdomi because against other ships they have huge drawbacks



If you rip my post apart atleast have the decency to quote whole sentences. The part about EW countering setups was mentioned in conjunction with a imaginery module destroying ships, to show that just cause something is counterable it doesnt mean its automatically balanced.

Since when is a damp or a dps setup a part of setups to specifically counter nos? My whole point is that damps and other ew modules or high damage ships dont counter nos, but every single offensive module apart from fof and smartys, hardly a specific counter is it?

Originally by: William DeMeo

Concerning the midslots of a domi;

five midslots:
1x warp disruptor
1x 100mn microwarpdrive
3 damps.

The insane nossing power of the nosdomi's two heavy nos's can permarun the mwd and thus keep their range, even though all gunships fit mwd's AND webs (something you will not have with this setup). After that you will fit cap boosters and your OMG INSANE tank and your top speed will be at 800m/s. If you're lucky you can take a battleship down to under 20km with three damps, no way if he's got a sensor booster.

Assuming you can actually keep your range vs. the hostile you'd still have the problem of your drones getting ****d.

Webbed heavy drones = slow as hell
sentry drones = slow as hell
Domi with dead drones = TEH IMBA UNKILLABLE SHIP WITH NO COUNTERZ

Get a clue, I hope you're an alt because 2006.12 highsec missionrunners I fear don't know so much about the game or it's balance. Rolling Eyes


Ah getting down to insults, if it soothes your mind, yes this is a alt cause my alliance has a policy about bull****ting on forums, using a alt i dont have to worry about insulting allies or making political statements like "xy sucks anyway and your a perfect example of the stupidness of your whole alliance". If it really bothers you that much i can also contact you ingame with my main, rest be assured im a player from 2004 that can fly all the ships he talks about.

But lets also get to your thoughts about the domi, first the domis "OMG awesome tank" is a 7 slot large dual rep tank. There are exactly three armortanking BS in the game that can pull of a better tank slot/boni wise, and all of them rely on turret damage and usually will fit atleast a couple damagemods. So now that we established the domis tank indeed is formidable, lets go to the damps. Dampeners not only reduce your locking range, but also increase the time needed to lock things, especially small things like drones. Do you have any idea how long you will take to lock heavy drones with 3 damps on you?

Even with a sensorbooster, which basicly only minmatar have the spare medslots for, you wont be able to lock them ever if i get in close and rescoop them every 20 sec or simply recall them to my ship and out of your sensorrange. Not to mention that certain ships need all the cap their injector gives them just to run their guns, not even mentioning trying to run a mwd or tank.

Also sentry drones are not slow, they are immobile. Webbing requires locking, and i never heard about a domi loosing ALL its drones in a 1on1 anyway. Fact is the domi was a royal pain in the ass for every single BS, hac or CS out there, for like 4 mil SP requirements and a fricking tier 1 BS.

I can only say good riddance.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:41:00 - [1420]
 

Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25
Quote:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.


Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use
nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him.
He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor.

3 ideas:
1) 1 nosf works better than 2+
2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you
3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good.

Strange mechanic. Really Strange

Hands of my toies!



Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers.
Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time.

Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back.

Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1.

If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP.

Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:50:00 - [1421]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 17:33:17
Originally by: Maya Rkell
You're arguing that a ship can destroy any frigate in 1 second but cannot harm cruisers and battleships is balanced? Again, that's specalisation and not balance.


A hugin can get nearly the same tank and dps as a vagabond. If you think it can only really kill frigates you either have no experience with that ship or are flat out lying.


Did I say Hugin? No, I did not. I was talking about a hypothetical ship. Try again.


Quote:
The point you miss is that other recons can do that *better*. A huginn will disable frigs faster. A rook can permajam HACs and frigs with one module.


But the rook won't make them vulnrable to fire when they're next on the target list. The Rook won't also damp another enemy, the Rook is vulnrable to failure on its jammers, the Rook dosn't have the same drone ability, etc.

Quote:
No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs


Your loss then, I can.

Quote:
What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing.


Repeating over and specalist==balance won't help. It's not.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:51:00 - [1422]
 

Edited by: ***er on 04/08/2007 20:02:04
Originally by: Damned Force


I agree with u. is a crazy change that a noob would be able to use same effective or even more effective the nos on a non bonused ship, like a 15m sp pilot with maxed energy skills in a curse or pilgrim(bonused ship). I think this nos change is very very unlucky in the form as it is. Sure the skilled pilot can use neuts, but with this change the nosbonus is useless :(

Again a not correct change from Dev's. Here on forums was lot of good idees for noschange and from all this idees take the worst possible :(

I hope this change would never activated on TQ


A nos on a low-sp ship will be MARGINALLY better at DRAINING cap.
You all seem to be afraid of Low-SP players sitting at 0 cap being able to Drain you so they can get back in fight. I mean how much can you fear a Low-SP player with 0 cap...
If that Low-SP player trained up some CAP skills he might not need to use that NOS to drain so much anymore...

This also means a high SP player will have a slight disadvantage in DRAINING cap from a low sp player. However hell have advantage since he got more cap and cap recharge.

Compare this with todays low sp players running NOSdomis...

Wich do you fear most low SP in NOSdomi or a low sp with a slight advantage in a NOS vs NOS module fight.

If you feel low-sp ppl needs to be nerfed ppl, you should vote YES for this.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 19:58:00 - [1423]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell

Quote:
No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs


Your loss then, I can.




please tell us more about this statement, im sure many of use reading from both those who hate the new curse and those who like would want the hear what pros you are talkinga about here.

Im sure thats the kind of stuff CCP want to read to, to decide weather the Curse needs to be adjusted.

Crash Sagramo
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:03:00 - [1424]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25
Quote:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.


Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use
nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him.
He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor.

3 ideas:
1) 1 nosf works better than 2+
2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you
3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good.

Strange mechanic. Really Strange

Hands of my toies!



Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers.
Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time.

Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back.

Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1.

If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP.

Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that.


You are wrong/ Curse cann't destroy capacitor even from tier1 BC with such a nosfs. Curse uses nosf to keep his own capacitor, but when taget has not mamy capacitor 10-15% Curse won't be able to do anything. Even if i destroy capacitor what should i do? I can't keep my EW... Drones can be killed easilly

You don't get that 2 neuts uses 320 capactior/per activation(12 sec ) and destroy 650 capacitor, And i have SB, Tracking destruptors an so on. 1100 Capacitor (with mwd) is enougph to keep active modules at about 25-20 seconds, then your only hope is nos. BUT!
1) if you have 4 nosd you cant destroy capacitor = you can't drain
2) 3 nosf 1 capacitor - the same
3) 2/2 set up not enouph capacitor, becourse sometimes you can drain, some times not. And the most important thing - you never know when you are able to drain, and when - not.

These are the curse future. Sad one, i should say.



Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:07:00 - [1425]
 

Originally by: ***er
A Curse using a 800 can waste more then 800 from his enemie using 800. Gives advantage in Cap war witch it fights and also not all enemies uses 800 and when they dont you got even more advantage. And with the general use of NOS less ppl would i suspect use 800s as many use them as the only means to fight NOS in closerange.


The problem is that you cannot see what amount of cap a target has. It might have 2%, 20% or 50%. This makes you wasting charges rather likely.

As for the popularity of injectors, that goes both ways. People cannot rely on nos as energysource that much anymore so injectors also get more important as energysource.

Quote:
I would also like to bring another thing to the table. Cant you use a Curse to efficently kill of a ships cap and targeting in fleet? Kinda like a damper can kill its locking abilities?


Assuming with *fleet* you mean fleets as in large scale POS sniper warfare of 50+ people? If not clarify it more.

Kill a ships cap: Unless they are frigs pretty pointless. Stuff pops far quicker than you can suck it dry. And vs frigs an huginn will be better.

Tracking disruptors: Utterly pointless.I explained that in detail a page ago. Copy-paste:

Originally by: Aramendel
Do the numbers before suggesting something which does not work. With 2 EW range rigs TDs still have only a 10% chance for a TD to work at 150k. To compare: a lachesis with 2 EW range rigs has a 52% chance for a damp to work at 150k and will damp a 220k lock range 2 sensorbooster mega down to 65k.

Hell, the amarr recon will be better with damps, same chance for them to work, the mega will just be "only" damped to 86k instead 65k. Of cource, then you will not use a single shipbonus of the curse and might just as well use any other ship with 6 medium slots.


Even if we ignore the range problems: TDs are extremly limited. It's not only not useless vs missiles. It is also pointless vs nos/neut. Webs. Scrams. All kinds of EW. And also does not limit drone control like ECM and damps do.

Neither are they more effective per module. I can have 2 of them on a ship of equal size and if it is faster than me and counters the range limitations and my transversal it can hit me fine.

Quote:
I mean just couse primary dies wihtout wasting all its cap doesnt mean you cant drain other ships like say.. Blasterboats or stop speeders.


Against speeders a huginn is far far better. All blasterboats but the thorax/deimos will have a cap injector fitted. Neuting them in preperation is pretty dumb - since you simply cannot know if they boosted their cap up or not.
I'd rather jump in a caldari recon and keep on average 3-4 targets disabled instantly. And for these fights I will be able to do just that in 7 more days.

It's agin, not that it is "useless". It just has a lot better alternatives.

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:09:00 - [1426]
 

Edited by: Damned Force on 04/08/2007 20:11:27
Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25
Quote:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.


Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use
nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him.
He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor.

3 ideas:
1) 1 nosf works better than 2+
2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you
3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good.

Strange mechanic. Really Strange

Hands of my toies!



Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers.
Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time.

Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back.

Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1.

If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP.

Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that.


You are wrong/ Curse cann't destroy capacitor even from tier1 BC with such a nosfs. Curse uses nosf to keep his own capacitor, but when taget has not mamy capacitor 10-15% Curse won't be able to do anything. Even if i destroy capacitor what should i do? I can't keep my EW... Drones can be killed easilly

You don't get that 2 neuts uses 320 capactior/per activation(12 sec ) and destroy 650 capacitor, And i have SB, Tracking destruptors an so on. 1100 Capacitor (with mwd) is enougph to keep active modules at about 25-20 seconds, then your only hope is nos. BUT!
1) if you have 4 nosd you cant destroy capacitor = you can't drain
2) 3 nosf 1 capacitor - the same
3) 2/2 set up not enouph capacitor, becourse sometimes you can drain, some times not. And the most important thing - you never know when you are able to drain, and when - not.

These are the curse future. Sad one, i should say.





Exatly. I braek amarr recon training and train something else

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:20:00 - [1427]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Did I say Hugin? No, I did not. I was talking about a hypothetical ship. Try again.


Exept we are not talking about "hypothetical ships" we are talking about existing ships.

Quote:
But the rook won't make them vulnrable to fire when they're next on the target list. The Rook won't also damp another enemy, the Rook is vulnrable to failure on its jammers, the Rook dosn't have the same drone ability, etc.


Your first sentence makes no sense.

A rook can disable with ECM far more targets than a curse can with damps or TDs.

A curse can with damps in bigger gangs only disable one single target, it is by enemy fire just as vulnerable as the rook.

Neither is the rook vulnerable to drones since it can operate outside it.

Quote:
Your loss then, I can.


No arguments = white noise. Everyone can say "this is so."

Quote:
Repeating over and specalist==balance won't help. It's not.


Advantages in one area counter disadvantages in another area. If a ship is bad in one area it has to be good in another area to stay balanced.

You can say "it is not" like a child throwing a tantrum as often as you want, I'll reply to you again when you start behaving like an aduld and substantiate what you say with arguments.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:22:00 - [1428]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Maya Rkell

Quote:
No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs


Your loss then, I can.




please tell us more about this statement, im sure many of use reading from both those who hate the new curse and those who like would want the hear what pros you are talkinga about here.

Im sure thats the kind of stuff CCP want to read to, to decide weather the Curse needs to be adjusted.


I allready have. Nos the next target in line. For many ships that'll affect their firing ability, and when the primary target is dead the secondary will go quickly too. In the meantime the Curse has moved on again... (oh, and use a single neut to swat those pesky frig's cap...)

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:27:00 - [1429]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Did I say Hugin? No, I did not. I was talking about a hypothetical ship. Try again.


Exept we are not talking about "hypothetical ships" we are talking about existing ships.


Right. Dodge, twist, turn, don't answer my question. Amusing.

Quote:
But the rook won't make them vulnrable to fire when they're next on the target list. The Rook won't also damp another enemy, the Rook is vulnrable to failure on its jammers, the Rook dosn't have the same drone ability, etc.


Your first sentence makes no sense.


Makes perfect sense. A jammed target loses no ability to use modules. A cap-drained target does.

You're still trying to brush off a question which you fundermentally cannot answer in terms favourable to you. There is a difference between balance issues in a fight and specalised ships. For example, the covert ops ship is specalised. It also happens not to be able to fight more generally. The curse was specalised as a solo killer, and it could fight more generally. It's now been placed on the same level as other ships, that a ship with general fighting abilities does not also have a specalisation in which it cannot ever be matched.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:35:00 - [1430]
 

Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25
Quote:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.


Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use
nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him.
He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor.

3 ideas:
1) 1 nosf works better than 2+
2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you
3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good.

Strange mechanic. Really Strange

Hands of my toies!



Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers.
Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time.

Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back.

Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1.

If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP.

Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that.


You are wrong/ Curse cann't destroy capacitor even from tier1 BC with such a nosfs. Curse uses nosf to keep his own capacitor, but when taget has not mamy capacitor 10-15% Curse won't be able to do anything. Even if i destroy capacitor what should i do? I can't keep my EW... Drones can be killed easilly

You don't get that 2 neuts uses 320 capactior/per activation(12 sec ) and destroy 650 capacitor, And i have SB, Tracking destruptors an so on. 1100 Capacitor (with mwd) is enougph to keep active modules at about 25-20 seconds, then your only hope is nos. BUT!
1) if you have 4 nosd you cant destroy capacitor = you can't drain
2) 3 nosf 1 capacitor - the same
3) 2/2 set up not enouph capacitor, becourse sometimes you can drain, some times not. And the most important thing - you never know when you are able to drain, and when - not.

These are the curse future. Sad one, i should say.





Good points, seems one of the greatest disatvantages for the new curse would be its unability to see its targets CAP and use its NOS/Neuts in the right way...

I mean if you knew the cap it would be possible to use NOS/neuts in combo to first drain him down and then when your equal you wack his cap under 30% while your is above to win the CAP fights...

But to the origin of your first quote to me:
Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them.

please understand this statement was meant to the standard use on standard ships using NOS to sustain CAP on smaller ships. It had nothing to do with the curse/pilgrim issue.
I was pointing out that using NOS on smaller ship didnt seem broken compared to what the one i quoted was implying.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:47:00 - [1431]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: ***er
A Curse using a 800 can waste more then 800 from his enemie using 800. Gives advantage in Cap war witch it fights and also not all enemies uses 800 and when they dont you got even more advantage. And with the general use of NOS less ppl would i suspect use 800s as many use them as the only means to fight NOS in closerange.


The problem is that you cannot see what amount of cap a target has. It might have 2%, 20% or 50%. This makes you wasting charges rather likely.

As for the popularity of injectors, that goes both ways. People cannot rely on nos as energysource that much anymore so injectors also get more important as energysource.

Quote:
I would also like to bring another thing to the table. Cant you use a Curse to efficently kill of a ships cap and targeting in fleet? Kinda like a damper can kill its locking abilities?


Assuming with *fleet* you mean fleets as in large scale POS sniper warfare of 50+ people? If not clarify it more.

Kill a ships cap: Unless they are frigs pretty pointless. Stuff pops far quicker than you can suck it dry. And vs frigs an huginn will be better.

Tracking disruptors: Utterly pointless.I explained that in detail a page ago. Copy-paste:

Originally by: Aramendel
Do the numbers before suggesting something which does not work. With 2 EW range rigs TDs still have only a 10% chance for a TD to work at 150k. To compare: a lachesis with 2 EW range rigs has a 52% chance for a damp to work at 150k and will damp a 220k lock range 2 sensorbooster mega down to 65k.

Hell, the amarr recon will be better with damps, same chance for them to work, the mega will just be "only" damped to 86k instead 65k. Of cource, then you will not use a single shipbonus of the curse and might just as well use any other ship with 6 medium slots.


Even if we ignore the range problems: TDs are extremly limited. It's not only not useless vs missiles. It is also pointless vs nos/neut. Webs. Scrams. All kinds of EW. And also does not limit drone control like ECM and damps do.

Neither are they more effective per module. I can have 2 of them on a ship of equal size and if it is faster than me and counters the range limitations and my transversal it can hit me fine.

Quote:
I mean just couse primary dies wihtout wasting all its cap doesnt mean you cant drain other ships like say.. Blasterboats or stop speeders.


Against speeders a huginn is far far better. All blasterboats but the thorax/deimos will have a cap injector fitted. Neuting them in preperation is pretty dumb - since you simply cannot know if they boosted their cap up or not.
I'd rather jump in a caldari recon and keep on average 3-4 targets disabled instantly. And for these fights I will be able to do just that in 7 more days.

It's agin, not that it is "useless". It just has a lot better alternatives.


Nicely put.
In the curse versus caldari. The caldari ship wont be able to stop fast ships thou. A Curse can cap em out to make em stop, and even web drones to slow en down more.

I know a minmatar recon can slow em down better but minmatar reconns cant do stuff amarr reconns can with capwarfare.

But its true i agree with you... it seems very situational and sub par. Hopefully CCP will check into this like they are checking into the bloodraider ships who are also capwarfare specialists.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:58:00 - [1432]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 21:01:45
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Makes perfect sense. A jammed target loses no ability to use modules. A cap-drained target does.


Utterly, completely wrong. A jammed target cannot use all modules which require a target to work. Because you cannot target anything.

A cap drained target can use all modules which do not require cap to work just fine. And also instantly can "cure" this by using a cap booster. ECCM will only boosts your chance not to be effected in the next cycle.

Also using ECM is instant disabeling. Draining a targets cap is delayed. In bigger gangs killing the target happens before that.

Quote:
You're still trying to brush off a question which you fundermentally cannot answer in terms favourable to you.


How can I avoid to answer something which was never asked or explained? Until now all you said regarding this "it is not the same thing."

Quote:
There is a difference between balance issues in a fight and specalised ships. For example, the covert ops ship is specalised. It also happens not to be able to fight more generally. The curse was specalised as a solo killer, and it could fight more generally. It's now been placed on the same level as other ships, that a ship with general fighting abilities does not also have a specalisation in which it cannot ever be matched.


Specialization can happen in every order of magnitude. Comparing the extreme specialisation of a cov ops to that of a recon ship is rather silly.

All recon ships are specialized in disabeling ships in a certain way. The curse by draining their cap (which is a delayed disabeling) and reducing the efficiency of their turrets. The huginn by killing their speed. The lachesis by reducing their targeting range & speed and warp scrambling them from high ranges. The rook by removing their ability to lock anything & being able to do that from high ranges.

The very nature makes them more effective in certain situations and less effective in other situations.

Due to nos being delayed as disabeling device it is unlike damps and ECM not alyways useful. Its main advantage over these is that unlike them it can disable tanks. This can also be done by simple dps. In medium and bigger gangs dps "disables" targets before cap warefare does. Instant disabeling of targets by damps and ECM however is still useful, as are longrange webs. TDs on their own cannot compete with those.

Solo the reverse is the case, there cap warfare can disable a targets tank before dps does.

The very nature of capwarefare makes it more efficient solo than it is in larger groups. It has an advantage in one area which is balanced by a disadvantage in another area. Just like with all the other recons.





Neo Providence
Posted - 2007.08.04 21:04:00 - [1433]
 

I'm somewhat confused. What would happened if two ships were to use nos on each other. how would that be worked out?

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 21:37:00 - [1434]
 

Originally by: Neo Providence
I'm somewhat confused. What would happened if two ships were to use nos on each other. how would that be worked out?


The one with lower CAP% would drain CAP from the one with higher %CAP. The one with higher % wouldnt be able to drain his opponent with lower %CAP.

The one with lower %CAP will be able to drain until both %cap are at the same lvl or unthill his enemies cap went under his for different reasons like using TANKmods or something.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.04 21:58:00 - [1435]
 

Originally by: Crash Sagramo
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 11:46:21
You have only your opinion, and i have facts and my practice!
I'll say again:
1)without nosfs, curse will be useless.
2) With nosfs working like was said in dev blog curse will be useless.

It will be beble to destroyed even with tech 1 cruiser


Maybe useless for you, but there have been a number of Curse pilots who have reported that they have adapted and, while they have to be more careful and better pilots, they can still use their Curse very effectively. Obviously, not everyone (particularly those who do nothing but fit cookie-cutter setups) will be able to cope and will have to stop using the Curse because it will be useless to them with the current cookie-cutter setups.

The Pilgrim, however, has been hurt too bad and needs fixes. The Dev post said they are looking into it.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.04 21:58:00 - [1436]
 

(Can't quote Bentula for some reason but this is in reply to Bentula anyways)

First of all, post with your main. I wanna know who I'm talking to, secondly, not insulting you just saying a young mission runner wouldn't have much experience to determine if nos's should get nerfed or not.

Moving on to the actual post I gotta say I'm actually getting bored explaining the obvious. Yes, I know sentry drones can't move, that's why they're quite easy to kill. So are heavy drones, even though you're damped you'd be able to get them if you tried hard enough.

AND even if you couldn't actually catch them (which is likely considering so many people are whining over nosboats) there is NO WAY IN HELL the domi can keep everything running long enough to kill another BS without fitting a cap injector on the domi. Thing about the damp setup is it's not that great, and it's not that common and it's not that hard to beat.

The Domi doesn't have a bad tank, indeed it's not bad. But EVERY other gallente BS is able to have a just as good or better tank and still have much better damage output. Fair enough, since it's a tier 1 BS. But it's definetly not overpowered. Just because you can fit damage mods on the mega/hyp doesn't mean you have to you know.Rolling Eyes The Dominix breaks quite fast under fire alot easier then say a hyperion's tank does. So you don't even have to worry about running the domi out of cap before you can kill it, which the domi has to worry about in every single fight. It's a different way of playing, some setups are better then others and some fights you just can't win. That's fine, that's balanced, and it makes for fun and interesting pvp.

And if you need all your cap boosters just to run maybe you shouldn't be engaging a domi in the first place. Just because you have guns don't mean you should pwn every other ship. And if you're worried about cap you can always fit a non cap-reliant weapon on your amarr ship, AC's anyone?

I will not ****ing explain this any more in any post and people should try flying Domi's before saying it's overpowered, just like anything else you don't really know the ship if you haven't flown it.


Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.04 22:00:00 - [1437]
 

Originally by: Long Fang
Originally by: Shadowsword


A standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets


Except now it can't fill its role as its not getting any boost to its NOS which is the entire point of the ship. As an EW boat it is only effective against turrets which many ships don't use, as an EW platform it is surpassed by both the Arazu and Rook which can effect ALL ships.


If you read really close and carefully, you'll see the bonus is to both NOS and NEUTs... not just NOS... and, last time I looked, NEUTs work against ALL ships.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.04 22:01:00 - [1438]
 

Originally by: IPyric
yep your correct. to use NOS now your better of with no CAP Skills and we cant untrain them :/


Reading, FTL... the Dev post has already said they are looking into this.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.04 22:03:00 - [1439]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 21:01:45
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Makes perfect sense. A jammed target loses no ability to use modules. A cap-drained target does.


Utterly, completely wrong. A jammed target cannot use all modules which require a target to work. Because you cannot target anything.

A cap drained target can use all modules which do not require cap to work just fine. And also instantly can "cure" this by using a cap booster. ECCM will only boosts your chance not to be effected in the next cycle.

Also using ECM is instant disabeling. Draining a targets cap is delayed. In bigger gangs killing the target happens before that.





Well if you want to compare ECM to CAPwarfare there are som more points to consider.
- ECM stops your enemies offensive/defensive targeting required modules.
- ECM doesnt stop Tank or Speed. Doesnt stop F.O.F or to some extent drones.
- ECM requires lowslots.
- ECCM lowers ECM effectivness effectively, this module is rarely fitted thou for good reasons.
- ECCM dont have Racial proportions when used. (if you minmatar and use a gallante EECM then GG you)
- ECM is also VERY cap hungry ofthen taken the ECMships out of CAP if they use full racks.
- ECM is instant when it hits, but only for a timelimit.
- ECM has RACIAL proportions... ECM in itself is over 6 modules. I mean TDs work only on guns rights, but a minmatar jammer works only on minmatar.
- ECM has great Range and actually since it used mostely in fleets can use that range.

its not all a catwalk with ECM, theres a reason ppl prefer DAMPs these days...
Also Amarr reconns have TDs above CAPwarfare althou its uses are limited.
Amarr has Dronespace wich is a huge advantage over Caldari reconns. Drones can be used for the standard dmg but also for EW itself.. web, neuts, TD, paint, ecm....

Do you think a Curse could kill BS ships cap easier with NEUT drones perhaps? or use webdrones to keep a speeder in place after you stopped him once with cap...

Caldari is ECM only, amarr have CApwarfare+TD and can usually in someway tank and do their job... and to top it a dronebay.
A falcon/rook is more
"if fire comes your way warp out unless you got another ECM of the right and cap to use it to make the attacker go away..."

Amarr reconns migth not be able to take out a ship as fast as ECM, but it can do lots of other things to... The ECM ships can tank, cant move, cant take speeders, cant kill tanks, its system is chance based.

Perhaps you can understand why i dont see the Curse as DEAD as some others here.. atleast not compared to caldari reconns.
Still i agree and understand how it can also be seen as pretty useless..

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.04 22:07:00 - [1440]
 

Originally by: Wyliee
Edited by: Wyliee on 04/08/2007 17:55:59


http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=568837&page=1

this is worth reading.....


How does it solve the problem of NOS destroying someone else's cap (to zero) for profit (it doesn't cost to use it... in fact, you gain by using it which is better than "free", it's "for profit")?

I want the gun that does damage to your armor while repairing my own and doesn't use cap to fire.


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