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zero2espect
Amarr
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:13:00 - [1321]
 

Quote:
And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless


incorrect. when i fly ceptors. and when i warp onto solo battleships as a scout for a gang. i have faction gear fitted to stay beyond nos range.

i don't know how you people play the game, but for the last 3 months, every battleship my ceptor, or the ceptor in my gang, warps in on, cloaks! that or it warps before the ceptor gets there. SOLO ratting battleships DON'T FIT NOS ANYMORE, THEY FIT CLOAKS. and solo BS that are not ratting but are looking for trouble, have more to worry about than a single ceptor.

the quote above is like 99% of the posts in this forum, it represents the gallente perspective of an amarr problem. YOU FIT NOS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. we have to fit nos because WE HAVE TO AND CAN'T FIT ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT SLOT.

example. zealot. 5 highs. 4 turrets. 1 "utility slot". 3 med slots. so we try to fit. 4 medium lasers. HIGH CAP USAGE. armour repper or 2. HIGH CAP USAGE. under these new changes. we have to run our cap LOWER than a caldari or minmatar ship that we are engageing to utilise a "UTILITY SLOT" that has a nos fitted - meaning we cant fire the lasers or rep. that doesn't make sense. OK, let me fit a neut then in my "utility slot". so how does leaching zeroing the cap on a caldari ship or minmatar ship help me shoot them or armour repair? answer it doesn't unless i UNFIT A GUN AND FIT A NOS AS WELL - oh, but hang on, if i neut the target down, there's NO CAP FOR ME TO LEACH ANYWAY. oh, but you say, just fit a cap booster (well i do on my zealot, but guess what, that means i have to choose between a webber or an AB or MWD, meaning wither way, I can't catch a minmatar, gallenta or caldari ship anyway.....

guess what...the prophecy, the absolution, the gheddon, the prophecy, the maller are all the same. and lets not mention the impact to the pilgrim or the curse. bugger me.

the curse. my standard fit atm is dual heavy launchers, 2x nos, 1x neut, ewar mids, armour repping (old skool fitting). if you want every single curse engagement to be "wait until gang engages, warp in at 30km, damp and neut" this change will only accellerate this behaviour. it also takes away any ability the curse has to solo pvp (the ONLY AMARR SHIP THAT CAN - unless you're hunting people who in these days of PC are called "special" and can't warp away from a harby or absolution). Every race has a solo ship or ships apart from amarr if the curse is taken away. Note that the pilgrim has been broken for quite some time - too slow, too weak and no range bonus to really make it useful, or even expendable with it's cost when u factor in the mods required to make it work.

it's quite simple. the suggestion for the NOS fix is a knee jerk reaction to nos-myrmi and nos-domi "over balancing".

either move to nos-slots, sheesh, even make NOS classified as a missle launcher and only enable it to fit to launcher hardpoints. then u can rebalance amarr utility slots to launcher slots and hence make missile skills "usable" across the board. <- in fact thinking about it, this solves almost every "issue" raised in this 40+ page thread atm. GIVE US THE CHOICE TO CHOOSE DPS or NOS and if we choose DPS, make us work for it with launcher skills that also fit into the khanid changes.

otherwise, convert out utility slot to a turret or a mid depending on the ship and give us a crystal with an alternate damage type (breaking the curse but making the zealot and battlecruisers useful).

end x2.

PhantomVyper
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:20:00 - [1322]
 

Originally by: zero2espect

the quote above is like 99% of the posts in this forum, it represents the gallente perspective of an amarr problem. YOU FIT NOS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. we have to fit nos because WE HAVE TO AND CAN'T FIT ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT SLOT.

example. zealot. 5 highs. 4 turrets. 1 "utility slot". 3 med slots. so we try to fit. 4 medium lasers. HIGH CAP USAGE. armour repper or 2. HIGH CAP USAGE. under these new changes. we have to run our cap LOWER than a caldari or minmatar ship that we are engageing to utilise a "UTILITY SLOT" that has a nos fitted - meaning we cant fire the lasers or rep. that doesn't make sense.


Ok, just focusing on this part of your post here.

You must have really misunderstood the nos changes.

If you fire your lasers and run your reps your cap will go down, it will go down faster than a gallente or caldari or minmatar because their weapons use less cap than ours.

So if your cap is lower that theirs, you can use the nos, just like you have been using it so far to steal their energy.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:21:00 - [1323]
 

Originally by: zero2espect
every day i'm going to post the same thing.

the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful.

there is a difference in this thread b/n amarr need for nos and the overpowered gallente argument.

i am sick an tired of pilots stating how useful this will be for amarr....how does it benefit our laser and repping requirements to fit a neut and bring the targets cap down AFTER ours.




It doesnt.. Fitting a NOS will help your Lasers and Rep since youll be lower in Cap then your enemie, and NOS gives you defence against NEUT ships.

Imagine a Amarr NEUT boat with perhaps say some proj/miss or all neut and drones, think out of the bos or whatevah here.

Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really...

Atleast other races will have more trouble killing YOUR cap and YOU can use NOS very good still to geep you going.

How is this NOT more useful for amarr then others?

Having 5 ships with a neut each will DECIMATE 1 ships cap also, CAPwarfare is still very valid tactic in gang....

NOS wont do the neutralizer job anymore, this is balanced.

NOS slots wont even the balance between NOS and NEUTs only nerf ships like NOSdomi.

Vampire Lord
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:21:00 - [1324]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: zero2espect
every day i'm going to post the same thing.

the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful.



And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are *still* immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT *at all*.


If most people had a brain cell they would figure a way around it. That's the problem with eve now. People like you cry because your ship can't deal with one aspect yet it's nearly impossible for other class ships to catch an kill you. I vote for STFU an stop crying. How about you cry about something that really matters like lag???

PS: I used to enjoy telling people adapt or die. Now I'll have to tell them go to the forums an cry an the DEV's will change it.

zero2espect
Amarr
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:37:00 - [1325]
 

Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:57:30
Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:50:21
Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:41:06
Quote:
If you fire your lasers and run your reps your cap will go down, it will go down faster than a gallente or caldari or minmatar because their weapons use less cap than ours.


i under stand the mechanics just fine. with the way the responses are flowing in this thread i think it may be you that is confused.

today, the easiset and most used tactic for caldari or minmatar is to zero their cap and watch the amar ship starve. but denying me the ability to tip them over the edge and bottom out the cap to break a scram is madness.

every time i fire or rep, a nos attack from my opponent to me will do nothing that's ok. in fact, i doubt whether a caldari or minmatar ship would sacrifice a slot to fit a nos with these changes, they'll just fit a salvager to eat up all the amarr wrecks. a minmatar or caldari pilot is prepared to zero their cap...which they are quite capable of doing. this has the added bonus of meaning that i cannot consume any cap from them because their cap is below mine - i can't even suck out the cap that is funding their scrammer which is the only power draw they may have. this is MADNESS.

if i'm in a zealot, prophecy, absolution it's even worse because the only answer is a neut that i can't fire for the risk of compromising my damage and tank AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL TURRET SLOT JUST TO MAKE THIS A POSSIBILITY.

under these rules, any minmatar or caldari pilot only needs to hold onto enough cap to keep me scrammed and they win. i cannot nos them for cap and i must choose between 2 of the following 3 modules -> web, scram or speed (AB/MWD). because i will need a cap booster to supply me my cap requirements <- just fitting a cap booster effectively makes nos a non-usable module because my cap will ALWAYS be higher because i'm boosting cap.

add to the fact that if it's a khanid ship, half my cargo is now consumed with ammo and now cap boosters as well.

zero2espect
Amarr
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:49:00 - [1326]
 

Quote:
Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really...


and incorrect again. the amarr trademark is lasers and armour. the power requirements are a requirement to fund this, not the reason for it. if you look closely, our power grid and cap charge isn't much better than any other race - especially when u factor in how power hungry lasers and reppers are.

again i come back to the point that NEUTS DON'T HELP US SHOOT OR REP and in fact COMPROMISE OUR ABILITY TO SHOOT OR REP because we loos the same amount of cap as our opponents - but guess waht, if they're caldari or minmatar thay can still shoot us and thier shilds repair themselves without energy assistance.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:00:00 - [1327]
 

On a second note, Neuts alone make sense if combined with a cap booster, you could basically keep the enemies cap dry.

Naturally passive tanks are immune, and ships with weapons that dont require cap have the advantage, but thats nothing new.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:15:00 - [1328]
 

Originally by: Vampire Lord
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: zero2espect
every day i'm going to post the same thing.

the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful.



And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are *still* immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT *at all*.


If most people had a brain cell they would figure a way around it. That's the problem with eve now. People like you cry because your ship can't deal with one aspect yet it's nearly impossible for other class ships to catch an kill you. I vote for STFU an stop crying. How about you cry about something that really matters like lag???

PS: I used to enjoy telling people adapt or die. Now I'll have to tell them go to the forums an cry an the DEV's will change it.


This is funny, because it's what I've been saying all along... the people who can figure stuff out have already worked with the proposed changes and figured out how to deal with it. There are a few suggestions (faction ships need the NEUT bonus as well) and one notable breakage (Pilgrim).

I already work around it. I don't have a problem with the NOS now or with the proposed changes. I can work with it either way. Who exactly needs to figure stuff out?

Il Reverendo
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:25:00 - [1329]
 


Vampire Lord
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:34:00 - [1330]
 

Originally by: zero2espect
Quote:
Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really...


and incorrect again. the amarr trademark is lasers and armour. the power requirements are a requirement to fund this, not the reason for it. if you look closely, our power grid and cap charge isn't much better than any other race - especially when u factor in how power hungry lasers and reppers are.

again i come back to the point that NEUTS DON'T HELP US SHOOT OR REP and in fact COMPROMISE OUR ABILITY TO SHOOT OR REP because we loos the same amount of cap as our opponents - but guess waht, if they're caldari or minmatar thay can still shoot us and thier shilds repair themselves without energy assistance.



Yes I've already figured out a way to adjust to the changes but it still doesn't put any logic behind the changes. I should adapt to players tactics not the Dev's changing code & mods. It's about logic and the reason there changing it. How they are changing and so on. The DEV's need to learn how to adapt as well. Instead of hey lets just change this an see what happens. In reality the people with great logic can see this a Amarr buff in every way. It's just the Curse/Pilgrim get hurt in it. Every other Amarr ship is boosted. Crappy ships are now usable. In the same aspect it's buffing all small ships increasing their life expectancy. All in All this a drastic change that will affect all of eve. As I said before this NOS idea needs to get nurfed :). Even cutting the NOS amount by half would be better than this idea.

Countess Narcissa
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:01:00 - [1331]
 

I liked my Damnation as it was, would expand on that, but Im on holiday Cool

Tsunamisan
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:14:00 - [1332]
 

Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:16:32
Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:15:12
Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis

CCP have made a great game... and most of them play so let's all cut them some slack. I'm sure they will make the right choices for their game.Cool


Bring back duel MWD Twisted Evil

Hah! you're vagabond isn't fast enough is it?


This is also part of the problem. They care more about nurfing and filling there needs rather than satisfying the broad player base

Matroshka
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:23:00 - [1333]
 

Originally by: Tsunamisan
Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:16:32
Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:15:12
Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis

CCP have made a great game... and most of them play so let's all cut them some slack. I'm sure they will make the right choices for their game.Cool


Bring back duel MWD Twisted Evil

Hah! you're vagabond isn't fast enough is it?



This is also part of the problem. They care more about nurfing and filling there needs rather than satisfying the broad player base



Because CCP care nothing about having a prosperous business? How does nerfing fulfill CCP's needs other than satisfying the broad player base?

Actually, I bet they did it to personally **** you off Tsunamisan Rolling Eyes I think you are having paranoid delusions.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:30:00 - [1334]
 

Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Just strange that a nos takes mostly more than 1 cycle to kill an intys cap while a neut kills it instantly and then call nos overpowered.

Large named nos eats 120cap/12s at 25km range
Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if Im correct)

So a L named neut kills 5x (!) times more cap than a nos and it isnt overpowered??? 3 of those damage active tanked ships in 2-3 cycles very hard so you need 5 L named nos to counter 1 L named neut and on top of that at 30% cap of your target, he can neut you but you cant nos him. Where is the logic behind this crap?


- Neuts are harder to fit than Nos.
- Neuts don't nearly has many advantages as a Nos. For starters they drain your own cap at the same time instead of helping it.

So from those two facts: Neuts will not be used as comonly as Nos currently is effectivelly boosting a wholle lot of ship fittings that where perfectly viable if it wheren't for the overabundance of Nos. Dedicated Neut ships should still be a viable option and CCP has said that they are looking into it to make it so.


Damn haven't you realised neuts DO NOT work?

It is just not possible, why do you think they are not used? Because they're not any good! 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. The target will still easily be able to keep their guns going, especially caldari or minmatar ships since they don't even use cap.

On top of that your damage output would suck. Maybe 5 T2 heavy drones (can be tanked by a battlecruiser) and a few med/small guns. And while you're hitting your enemy for nothing at all (if you find it hard to tank 5 drones in a battleship you fail and should stop posting) you also got to run a dual rep tank (don't fool yourself people, a 1 rep tank can't tank a decent gunship, hell, it's tough enough with dual reps and nice resists). So, let's break it down to a megathron 1 vs. 1.

mega: 600-1000 dps depending on skills and setup, let's say 800.

Domi: Don't top 500 in a nos setup. Let's say 400.

Note, I can't be arsed to count on this or try it in quickfit so dps counts may be a little bit of but whatever.

Megathron capdrain:

roughly 2000 cap every 24 seconds.

Domi capdrain:

roughly 2800 cap every 24 seconds. (note: roughly)

Domi dps is half of the mega dps.

It's quite easy to see who would win this fight. Not only would the Domi (and the mega) run themselves straight out of cap the domi would also be breaking or barely breaking during the entire attack while the mega would be able to quite nicely tank the damage even with only 1 rep running.

So my question to you is, is this balance? Is this what people will use instead of nos? Are neuts "good"? If neuts are gonna work they're gonna need to get insanely buffed or nosboats are over.

CCP are forcing everyone to fly gunboats, they've nerfed the living **** out of ecm so it's hardly viable anymore. Nos as we know it are going to disappear and dampeners will be next. After that they'll probably go back to passive tanks and nano's to finally finish them off so that everyone can have a fair little fight without having to think at all. It's probably about this time you can buy ships with CCP approved setups so you can get the most out of the closerange gun battleship of CCP's choice. Shortly after this EVE will die.

That ****es me off. The game balance is fine go fix the lag and desynchs, that's the REAL issue with EVE. Evil or Very Mad




Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:40:00 - [1335]
 

Originally by: William DeMeo
2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap.


Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted:

Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if Im correct)

With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest.

If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:43:00 - [1336]
 

Originally by: MEEATYOU


I am in total agreement. I invested lots into the game, devoted hours training and working to get the perfect ship with NOS.

Now, with 2 characters (On 2 Accounts) I want to petition to get compensation for me (And the rest of the professional, Non Whiners of EVE Association) so that maybe, just maybe, we might think about continuing to play.

I wish that I had never heard of the game. When I started, it was fun, then the nerf happened to the shield tank, so I switched to Gallente. Now, it's their turn and personally, the game has become dull.

Thank you CCP for wrecking your greatest creation.

And if I hear a reply from a DEV, god help him for I will go up one side and down the other.

Why am I replying to this again?
Wow you spent hours training to perfect a Nos-boat, congrats, I've spent well over 2 years solely perfecting the skills for the Blasterthron, easily de-fanged by excessive Nosferatu (never been killed by a solo nos-domi before anyone pipes up)

Gallente doctrine does not, and never has revolved around the nos-domi, good riddance to it.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:48:00 - [1337]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: William DeMeo
2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap.


Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted:

Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if Im correct)

With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest.

If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%.


Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:51:00 - [1338]
 

Originally by: zero2espect
Quote:
Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really...


and incorrect again. the amarr trademark is lasers and armour. the power requirements are a requirement to fund this, not the reason for it. if you look closely, our power grid and cap charge isn't much better than any other race - especially when u factor in how power hungry lasers and reppers are.

again i come back to the point that NEUTS DON'T HELP US SHOOT OR REP and in fact COMPROMISE OUR ABILITY TO SHOOT OR REP because we loos the same amount of cap as our opponents - but guess waht, if they're caldari or minmatar thay can still shoot us and thier shilds repair themselves without energy assistance.


NOS HELP YOU SHOOT OR REP - way more then other races ships since you so point out amarr are most CAP hungry.
- please NOTE im not saying NEUTs will help your LASERS. LASERS + NEUTs seems like you say a BAD IDEAD.

AMARR will have the best oportunities to fit NEUTRALIZER RACKS couse AMARR ships are made for powergrid hungry WPNS such as NEUTRALIZERS or LASERS. Also MAX CAP and BEST regen will WIN or CREATE a better NEUTRALIZER warboat.

Also AMARR recons use NEUTRALIZERS and NOS - this fact points that CAPwarfare is more of a AMARR treat.

Maybe more caps can help you understand im just repeating myself here.

Nautralizers:
- Powergrid hungry like LASERS, amarr are best equip to fit both these wpns systems.
- NEUTRALIZERS Kill your enemies cap faster then yours. Also this makes the cap regen and MAX cap very important. If you got 30%+ cap when you have depleeted your enemies cap you have a GREAT ADVANTAGE in the CAPWAR.

NOS:
- Ina fight the ship with lesses % based CAP can use this WPN. In most cases this is AMARR ships.
- NOS helps CAP HUNGRY ships to sustain their TANK/WPNS against Less CAP hungry ships.
- NOS is a great countermeasure against NEUTRALIZER boats. But the more neutralizers the more NOS is needed.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 19:58:00 - [1339]
 

Originally by: zero2espect
Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:57:30
Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:50:21
Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:41:06
Quote:
If you fire your lasers and run your reps your cap will go down, it will go down faster than a gallente or caldari or minmatar because their weapons use less cap than ours.


i under stand the mechanics just fine. with the way the responses are flowing in this thread i think it may be you that is confused.

today, the easiset and most used tactic for caldari or minmatar is to zero their cap and watch the amar ship starve. but denying me the ability to tip them over the edge and bottom out the cap to break a scram is madness.

every time i fire or rep, a nos attack from my opponent to me will do nothing that's ok. in fact, i doubt whether a caldari or minmatar ship would sacrifice a slot to fit a nos with these changes, they'll just fit a salvager to eat up all the amarr wrecks. a minmatar or caldari pilot is prepared to zero their cap...which they are quite capable of doing. this has the added bonus of meaning that i cannot consume any cap from them because their cap is below mine - i can't even suck out the cap that is funding their scrammer which is the only power draw they may have. this is MADNESS.

if i'm in a zealot, prophecy, absolution it's even worse because the only answer is a neut that i can't fire for the risk of compromising my damage and tank AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL TURRET SLOT JUST TO MAKE THIS A POSSIBILITY.

under these rules, any minmatar or caldari pilot only needs to hold onto enough cap to keep me scrammed and they win. i cannot nos them for cap and i must choose between 2 of the following 3 modules -> web, scram or speed (AB/MWD). because i will need a cap booster to supply me my cap requirements <- just fitting a cap booster effectively makes nos a non-usable module because my cap will ALWAYS be higher because i'm boosting cap.

add to the fact that if it's a khanid ship, half my cargo is now consumed with ammo and now cap boosters as well.


If a Pilot kills it cap to use nos to drain a amarr ship, and the amarr ship is GANK fitted like many of them are. How do you suppose that no cap ship is gonna kill you. I mean even today a NOS domi has trouble against extreem Ganking ships and that is WITH a HEAVY tank.

DMG will force any opponent to Tank (exceptions are speed tanks and passive tanks) or die. While any enemie you fight kills it cap so you cant NOS well.. guess what they just help you kill them faster. Some fights you might lose and some win.

I mean a ship who killed its cap to NOS will not be able to tank. And with 0 cap no MWD works.
Ships that will be out there after this patch with the goal to 100% kill your preacious amarr cap wil be NEUTRALIZER boats. Wich GASP Amarr ships on paper have serious advantages of creating.

Callthetruth
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:02:00 - [1340]
 

moving along

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:16:00 - [1341]
 

Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: William DeMeo
2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap.


Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted:

Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if Im correct)

With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest.

If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%.


Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps.


Now say your enemy has 4x of these fitted, and is a amarr say Apoc. Now your enemy has ****load of more cap then you and BAM just took of 2400cap from you at the cost of arouundsay 1800cap im to lasy to count. Now this pilot has 4 slots over for DPS (or lets say more neuts killing over 50% of your cap in one go) and drones to force you to tank also. To Boost he got plenty of cap himself to tank with and since hes going for CAPwarfare he might even have a capbooster.

If he manages to kill your cap to 0 while hes at 30%+ hell have a recharge that wtf pwns your and can keep you down in cap while tanking. If your unlucky your ship uses cap to fire its guns also... to bad.


_Ok this is all wishful thory_

But anyone with more then 2 braincells has to admit Neutralizers are a valid and usable wpn. So why dont we see them used...

NOS

its to powerful and on top of helping yourself althou it does it slower then its cousin it will kill its targets cap to 0%.
NOS is to universal - and this is the only change to NOS that will put Neutralizers back in its full role while also balancing it and keeping it useful for its own purpose. Unless the Hardpoints for NOS wouldnt count for neutralizers or something... (witch would mean ppl would fil the NOS hardslots and the rest with Neuts heh)

Ashhtar
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:30:00 - [1342]
 

about Kanid mk 2 : is too bigger that change, and why only on amarr ships ???
i see here maybe only 40 people,i think 40 people is not all the 30000 connection and in this 40 there is a lot of non-amarrian talking a lot, but why (by the way) not have this sort of change on all race and class ships ?? Rolling Eyes

mmmm ?? egoist !! that a ridiculus nerf for amarrian people, be fair and doing that nerf on all ships on all race if nerf is an obligation !!

i repete; i use and i had skilled for turret ... actual fitt is good don't touch it

by the way i hope CCP dev's heard me, and a lot of ammarian who play at eve with me think like me, but they didn't speak well in english ...


end of transmission and maybe subscription for a lot of amarrian .. crr . ctrr...

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:41:00 - [1343]
 

Originally by: Ashhtar
about Kanid mk 2 : is too bigger that change, and why only on amarr ships ???
i see here maybe only 40 people,i think 40 people is not all the 30000 connection and in this 40 there is a lot of non-amarrian talking a lot, but why (by the way) not have this sort of change on all race and class ships ?? Rolling Eyes

mmmm ?? egoist !! that a ridiculus nerf for amarrian people, be fair and doing that nerf on all ships on all race if nerf is an obligation !!

i repete; i use and i had skilled for turret ... actual fitt is good don't touch it

by the way i hope CCP dev's heard me, and a lot of ammarian who play at eve with me think like me, but they didn't speak well in english ...


end of transmission and maybe subscription for a lot of amarrian .. crr . ctrr...


The other races already have half of our ships changed.. all other races can only fight in 50% their ships when they train only one system.. heck some races even fewer then that with 1 system... (ecm+rail+missiles for caldari) (shield+armor+speed+guns+missies for minmatarians)

Dunno about gallante really.. even their dronboats seem to be somewhat guns to... ofcourse their all NOSed to hell these days thou.

LvxOccvlta
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:42:00 - [1344]
 

Originally by: Borasao
And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are *still* immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT *at all*.


Even with CCP's proposed NOS nerf, a Dominix with 1 or 2 Neuts will still destroy the cap of your little inty. Your solution fails to address that fact, and focuses more on Nos for some reason.






William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:48:00 - [1345]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: William DeMeo
2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap.


Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted:

Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if Im correct)

With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest.

If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%.


Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps.


Now say your enemy has 4x of these fitted, and is a amarr say Apoc. Now your enemy has ****load of more cap then you and BAM just took of 2400cap from you at the cost of arouundsay 1800cap im to lasy to count. Now this pilot has 4 slots over for DPS (or lets say more neuts killing over 50% of your cap in one go) and drones to force you to tank also. To Boost he got plenty of cap himself to tank with and since hes going for CAPwarfare he might even have a capbooster.

If he manages to kill your cap to 0 while hes at 30%+ hell have a recharge that wtf pwns your and can keep you down in cap while tanking. If your unlucky your ship uses cap to fire its guns also... to bad.


_Ok this is all wishful thory_

But anyone with more then 2 braincells has to admit Neutralizers are a valid and usable wpn. So why dont we see them used...

NOS

its to powerful and on top of helping yourself althou it does it slower then its cousin it will kill its targets cap to 0%.
NOS is to universal - and this is the only change to NOS that will put Neutralizers back in its full role while also balancing it and keeping it useful for its own purpose. Unless the Hardpoints for NOS wouldnt count for neutralizers or something... (witch would mean ppl would fil the NOS hardslots and the rest with Neuts heh)


Dude. What the hell are you on about? Would he beat me by running 4 neuts AND lasers the most cap heavy weapon in game? What're you saying?

Sith Vador
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:54:00 - [1346]
 

Amarr as a whole is one step closer to perfection. Sept of course now my curse/pilgram are turned into a nice display. But i'm fine with that. The Curse was the pride of amarr becuase most everything else was ****ty. Now everything else is better all around an well... most amarrians get what they want even if they don't know it. Now we don't have to worry about NOS killing our guns. An we have some missile boats so they dont' have to worry about cap as much. However the NOS changes are pretty stupid. But hey... Amarr FTW.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 21:03:00 - [1347]
 

Edited by: ***er on 03/08/2007 21:20:51
Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: ***er


Now say your enemy has 4x of these fitted, and is a amarr say Apoc. Now your enemy has ****load of more cap then you and BAM just took of 2400cap from you at the cost of arouundsay 1800cap im to lasy to count. Now this pilot has 4 slots over for DPS (or lets say more neuts killing over 50% of your cap in one go) and drones to force you to tank also. To Boost he got plenty of cap himself to tank with and since hes going for CAPwarfare he might even have a capbooster.

If he manages to kill your cap to 0 while hes at 30%+ hell have a recharge that wtf pwns your and can keep you down in cap while tanking. If your unlucky your ship uses cap to fire its guns also... to bad.


_Ok this is all wishful thory_

But anyone with more then 2 braincells has to admit Neutralizers are a valid and usable wpn. So why dont we see them used...

NOS

its to powerful and on top of helping yourself althou it does it slower then its cousin it will kill its targets cap to 0%.
NOS is to universal - and this is the only change to NOS that will put Neutralizers back in its full role while also balancing it and keeping it useful for its own purpose. Unless the Hardpoints for NOS wouldnt count for neutralizers or something... (witch would mean ppl would fil the NOS hardslots and the rest with Neuts heh)


Dude. What the hell are you on about? Would he beat me by running 4 neuts AND lasers the most cap heavy weapon in game? What're you saying?


Well ok that was just a example to show potential of the neutralizers.
Lets say an apoc fits 2 missies and 6 neuts then. Hed be killing cap VERY fast. And the faster he does it the less his enemy tanks. And his spare cap goes to his tank.
Like Apoc uses 350cap/7500 to kill 600/5000 of his enemies cap. (these numbers wont be correct couse i cant be arsed to check up real numbers but the APOC will have huge cap advantage)

EDIT; Those Drain numbers reflect one Neutralizer. 6 of them would drain 3600Cap in one go at en expense of some fast calculating 2700 of his own cap with max skill on Tech2.

It can also field 1heavy and 4 light drones.
Apoc can also with this use pretty much all lows for a great tank but might have to sacrifice a slots for extra powergrid(1bcu at max for 2 lauchers).

If enemy use Booster ofcourse this apoc does to. Actually id fit a booster to it and it would have even playing field against other booster ships and have even greater advantage over those chooseing not to.

Perhaps not the all win 1on1 couse it will actually have some low DPS (but creat DPS against CAP). but we dont want another NOSdomi on our hands.

Also a good skilled pilots Laser takes the Cap comparable to Rails i believe doesnt it? On ships like apocalypse.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.03 21:42:00 - [1348]
 

Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25
And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button.

Next.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:06:00 - [1349]
 

Edited by: ***er on 03/08/2007 22:09:08

Originally by: William DeMeo
Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25
And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button.

Next.


Yay balance, the ship has uses but are weak against some other systems. Its not an I-WIN button.. wich is a GOOD THING.

I was trying to prove that Neutralizers didnt suck. They are not the replacement for the today powerful multiuse NOS thou. However i believe these changes will make ppl swift NOS for Neutralizers in some Cases and in others keep the New NOS on their ships.

Making both systems USABLE and somewhat balanced. Also if were look above 1vs1 having 1 neut on a few ships that focus fire on one... youll get a nasty effect. Neuts are a Good wpn but outshined by the powerful NOS.

But if these changes means you lost an i-win button and wants a new one then by all means...
/beer Cool

Bentula
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:56:00 - [1350]
 

Originally by: William DeMeo
Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25
And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button.

Next.


Heavens help Exclamation

Do you mean there are actually countersetups to neutheavy ships? This is soooo wrong, neuts are supposed to take nos place as a i-win button, we cant have have people beat them in everyday pvp setups. /sarcasm off

This goes to show how warped peoples perceptions are. You actually take the fact that his setup can be countered by some other setups as a imbalance. As if fitting for capwarfare should mean you deserve to kill every non capwarfare ship out there.

What are the "problematic" ships out there atm? The ships people tell n00bs to use if they want to pwn? Vexor/arbitrator, myrmidon, curse/pilgrim, vagabond. Why do people talk about gallente being OP? Because their blasterships are teh pwn? Is it the deimos and the megathron that kills everything left right and center with hardly any skills invested? Is it maybe the arazu? Why is the ishkur considered the best AF?

Its neither news nor a disputable fact(well you can dispute everything but sometimes it makes you look stupid) that the combination of drones + nos + ew in meds + armortank isnt exactly very easy to counter. Dont get me started with damps or ecm either cause domi for example could easily fit countermodules to that and still pwn with nos + drones + armortank.

This noschange addresses the obvious problems with nos, and no, none of the other solutions offered convinced me. The base sig approach in combination with nosslots got close though, but imho this is alot more subtle cause it still allows ships fitting for heavy capwarfare. Besides this also adresses ships like ishkur/ishtar, whose small/med nos would hardly be affected by a sig reduction when fighting ships in their sizeclass.

Its like ccp said, this is the only approach that really fixes all the things they percieve as the current problems with nos. Dont blame them for not coming up with a better solution if you didnt manage either, and arguing about what the current problems with nos are and what not isnt helpful either, someone has to have the last word and nothing will ever please everyone so they can only do what they think is right themselves.


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