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Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:11:00 - [1171]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Semkhet
Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25
In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets.


Ignoring any nerf proposals currently on, or off, the table, isn't this somewhat unbalanced as it is then? If a single module means a 3M SP character is 'balanced' against your 40M SP character, what does that mean when the same module is then also in the hands of the 40M SP player? Plus, doesn't that bother you that a 3M SP character with little experience in the game can make your 40M SP and years of experience pretty much worthless? Wouldn't it also mean that it's *much* more desirable for *anyone* to just NOS it up since not only does it balance you at low SP against high SP characters but will continue to 'increase your balance' against everyone more and more? What's the point of training past 3M SP then?


Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck.

There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:12:00 - [1172]
 

Originally by: Feng Schui
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Feng Schui
Can i have all my skillpoints that I trained up for using a pilgrim be switched into my raven / producion skills?


We haven't seen what fixes the dev has said they're looking into for the (known issues with the) Pilgrim regarding the NOS changes. In the worst case if they go live as-is, fly a Curse or switch to another FOTW.


I am a Pilgrim pilot... there will be no other ship.


Then why would you want to switch your skills into a Raven Wink

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:13:00 - [1173]
 


40 pages. LaughingLaughingLaughing

Natasha Kerensky
The Company
The Dominion Empire
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:25:00 - [1174]
 

Someone care to sum up the last 40 pages for me?

I dont have alot free time Wink

Crym Synistar
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:27:00 - [1175]
 

Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Kegstand Mcfarland
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Kegstand Mcfarland
And on top of all this the %'age of cap is pretty lame. MY BS cant NOS a Frig lower then 50% if im at 50% cap...yet
A. It costs me more to run everything I have.
B. My cap at 50% is still thousands more then the frigs.
C. I dont ever expect a Mack truck to hit my Yugo less hard just because its unfair that im smaller then it is.

If your Frig got popped by my BS due to you being dumb enough to stay close and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can damp then you deserve to die. I am not gonna ask Dev's to nerf Titans AE just cause my frig cant handle the pulse....why should you folks expect a NOS Dom to drain any less just because yer small. They say LARGE Nosferatu for a reason.



Well this is very easy to reverse: If your BS got popped by my frig because you where dumb enough to not fit a tank that can witstand a single frigs DPS and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can kill frigs then you deserve to die...


Well now isnt that funny...

You missed the point though. Please refer back tot he list and re- read point a-c.


Points A through C don't make any sense to this discussion but I'll address them if you wish:

A: Yes it does, and as a counter to this you do more damage, have a better tank and a wholle lot more energy to pay for those costs, so what exactly are you trying to say?!?

B: Again, yes it does and again what the hell does this has to do with the nos nerf??

C: Comparing real life to a computer game, do I really have to say more?!? But just to humour you, take the nos change and compare it to how conecting 2 bateries together works. The battery with the most charge will be drained into the battery with the lowest charge untill the 2 have the same charge. See? An example of RL actually using physics and that neatly explains how the new nos works... Of course its just as pointless as your car example because THIS IS A GAME!


Well right back at ya:
A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron.

B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled.

C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time.

Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:29:00 - [1176]
 

Originally by: Semkhet

Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck.

There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming.


Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not *the* most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos.

And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be.

Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more.

Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once.

I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu.

Feng Schui
Minmatar
Cruor Evertum Dominicus
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:32:00 - [1177]
 

Originally by: Borasao

Then why would you want to switch your skills into a Raven Wink


raven = high sec pve. I also have a hoarder for hauling stuff. And a hurricane for salvaging.

I'll only fly a pilgrim for pvp (used to fly an arbitrator before i got cruiser 5... so i could get used to fighting with that ship).

so, now.. pvp is out of the question for me Evil or Very Mad... can't see myself playing eve for much longer.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:36:00 - [1178]
 

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Semkhet

Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck.

There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming.


Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not *the* most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos.

And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be.

Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more.

Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once.

I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu.


learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you knowRolling Eyes

And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap Very Happy

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:42:00 - [1179]
 

Originally by: Semkhet
Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25
Originally by: Borasao
Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16
Continued from above:

The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong.

*That* being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim).


In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets.

Also, since it was not a racial weapon properly speaking, efficient NOS setups also originated in other races like Gallente and Minmatar. This gave the possibility to use NOS or not, according to your own philosophy and class of targets.

Does the community not realize that after each successive nerf, we are going each time closer towards a framework were ships will be able to use modules efficiently only as long the ship has apposite bonuses for the module in question ?

I like surprise and variability, and when I loose a ship to someone who used a setup I couldn suspect, I'm happy because I learned something. Those who are advocating for nerfs are simply putting the game on a track were ship setups will become static designs according to the race, ship class and age of the player.

If that's what you want then I ask myself if half a million years of human evolution to get a brain was worth after all...


Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds a good setup it gets nerfed.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:42:00 - [1180]
 

Originally by: Crym Synistar

Well right back at ya:
A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron.

B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled.

C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time.

Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad.


A) NOS helps you sustain dmg and gimps your raw DPS but it also gimps your Enemies Tank and in some Cases DPS, so the DPs loss is negliable. However after changes it isnt, you will hurt your DPS and streangthen your tank with NOS. You will hurt your tank and streanghten your DPS(by disabeling enemies Tank and sometimes even DPS) with neutralizers.
NOS wont be able to do the job of the neutralizer anymore.

B) Neutralizer will be used to counter small ships just like NOS used to automaticly do.
Big ships can still defend like they used to against small ships. Perhaps a tad bit worse thou.

C) This change doesnt hurt the balance BS vs Frig much, hardly at all. However it balances a flawed system in BS vs BS and many other fights.

SiLkYsOfT
ewok enterprises
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:46:00 - [1181]
 

Well all I have to say is...

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/players/T2KhanidBS_20070802192652.jpg

Ahkragan (Command Battleship)

* Hardpoints: 8 High Slots (8 launchers), 5 Mid Slots, 7 Low Slots
* Fitting: 1024tf , 12567mw
* Sensors: 135mm scan res , 123,000m max targeting range, 36 RADAR, 9 Max Locks
* Shields: 9500 Hitpoints, 20%EM, 70% EX, 50%KN, 35%TH
* Armor: 10250 Hitpoints, 75%EM, 70%EX, 50%KN, 35%TH
* Capacitor: 7250 Capacity, 1000 Recharge time
* Drone Bay: 100m3
* 3 Rig hardpoints, 500 Calibration

Bonuses

* 5% bonus to Torpedo/Cruise damage per Amarr Battleship level
* 5% bonus to armor resistances per Amarr Battleship level
* 10% reduction of explosion radius of Tordepo/Cruise per Command Battleship level
* 5% bonus to missile EM damage per Command Battleship level
* 99.99% CPU reduction for fitted command modules


Lacks the range of the CNR, but has a bonus to armor resistances, a better capacitor and targeting range. Pretty much an supercharged armor tanking CNR. Tachyons??

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:46:00 - [1182]
 

Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
Someone care to sum up the last 40 pages for me?

I dont have alot free time Wink


95% Rabble Rabble. Smile

Crym Synistar
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:47:00 - [1183]
 

Originally by: ***er
Originally by: Crym Synistar

Well right back at ya:
A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron.

B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled.

C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time.

Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad.


A) NOS helps you sustain dmg and gimps your raw DPS but it also gimps your Enemies Tank and in some Cases DPS, so the DPs loss is negliable. However after changes it isnt, you will hurt your DPS and streangthen your tank with NOS. You will hurt your tank and streanghten your DPS(by disabeling enemies Tank and sometimes even DPS) with neutralizers.
NOS wont be able to do the job of the neutralizer anymore.

B) Neutralizer will be used to counter small ships just like NOS used to automaticly do.
Big ships can still defend like they used to against small ships. Perhaps a tad bit worse thou.

C) This change doesnt hurt the balance BS vs Frig much, hardly at all. However it balances a flawed system in BS vs BS and many other fights.


Well at least yer not taking the arguement to the gutter! Thanks for the decent response and will try and see how this goes...just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:48:00 - [1184]
 

Edited by: ***er on 02/08/2007 17:55:26
Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: murder one
shortened for easier forum reading


learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you knowRolling Eyes

And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap Very Happy


They are not removing the NOS. They removing the NOS ability to perform a Neutralizers Job efficently and at the same time performing its own.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:54:00 - [1185]
 

Edited by: ***er on 02/08/2007 17:56:08
Originally by: Crym Synistar
Originally by: ***er
Shortened for easier forum reading


Well at least yer not taking the arguement to the gutter! Thanks for the decent response and will try and see how this goes...just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way.


Im glad to shine some light over the changes and its effects.

Try not to see your ship as nerfed.. more of Balanced (however if your flying Curse/pilgrim id say you got couse to worry).

General rule for all MMOs is that fotm classes/ships will be BALANCED...
.. unless you play Lineage2, crazy over there with fotm classes getting more boosts becouse they were good PvP classes hehe.

Crym Synistar
Posted - 2007.08.02 17:57:00 - [1186]
 

Edited by: Crym Synistar on 02/08/2007 17:59:02
Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Semkhet

Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck.

There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming.


Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not *the* most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos.

And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be.

Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more.

Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once.

I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu.


learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you knowRolling Eyes

And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap Very Happy


Agree totally...

The main problem is that alot of the people who whined that these setups are over powered usually at some point lost their ship and a friend or 2's ships fighting this setup....BUT the one thing that most people fail to realize is that 3 ships fit with a combined 150 mil in mods and piloted by unskilled and low SP toons against someone with 300+ mil alone in mods in there supersetup are sometimes destined to fail. I tried it personally...raven/drake/scorpion all (me included) setup wrong and unskilled against a guy with a fully decked out t2/faction dom...and we wonder why we lost. I knew why and I didn't cry I just never undocked another BS till I had the skills to back it up.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:04:00 - [1187]
 

agreed

Phyridean
LEGION OF PROFESSOR CHAOS
Darkmatter Initiative
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:06:00 - [1188]
 

Edited by: Phyridean on 02/08/2007 18:07:01
Hehe...Why not replace nosses with a highslot module that increases your capacitor without bothering with the enemy? Maybe it sucks down your own shields and uses the energy for cap? All those "I can't use neuts on my curse/pilgrim without running out of cap before my BS opponent does" become much less of a problem. Neuts can still be used to suck cap to zero, and it doesn't help a passive shield tanked setup. Hmmmmmmm....

I am joking unless this is actually a good idea.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:08:00 - [1189]
 

Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 18:11:33
Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 18:08:49
Originally by: ***er
Edited by: ***er on 02/08/2007 17:55:26
Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: murder one
shortened for easier forum reading


learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you knowRolling Eyes

And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap Very Happy


They are not removing the NOS. They removing the NOS ability to perform a Neutralizers Job efficently and at the same time performing its own





No, they're removing nos's and adding some new thing that I will hearby call; meh, since that is what it'll be.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:11:00 - [1190]
 

Edited by: ***er on 02/08/2007 18:42:47
Originally by: William DeMeo

No, they're removing nos's and adding some new thing that I will hearby call; meh, since that is what it'll be.
Yarr



I see this as a good indication that the new NOS will not the the must have module anymore but still useful, some will swift it out for neuts, some for another Gun/Turret. Sounds balanced already.
/Beer Cool

Jack Forge
Gallente
Wolverine Solutions
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:19:00 - [1191]
 

perhaps having a sliding scale of how much energy is recovered by the noss would be better.... like, you get less and it takes less as the targets cap gets smaller, noss only removes a % of the cap or amount depending on which is smaller?

so if you noss a ship at 100% cap (target) a t2 heavy noss would take 20% or a max of 250 energy units (whichever is the smaller amount) of the targets.... (lets go with 2000)

so one cycle would take 20% or 200, 20% of 2000 is 400 so the noss takes 200. 2000 ---> 1750
next cycle target cap 1775 (recharge) and noss goes again for 20% (355) or 250, takes 250 1775 ---> 1525
1580 (recharge % increase) noss hits for 20% (316) or 250, takes 250 1580 ----> 1330
1390 --> noss 20% (278) or 250. takes 250 1390 ---> 1140
1220 (close to peak recharge) --- noss 20% (244) or 250, takes 244 ----> 976
1010 20% (202) ---> 808
828 20% (166) ---> 662

etc.

of course the % and the max # would not be like this and would be different for each type....
this allows for noss to still be effective but also give the target some more leeway or at least the ability to shoot back for a short time

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:21:00 - [1192]
 

Originally by: Feng Schui

so, now.. pvp is out of the question for me Evil or Very Mad... can't see myself playing eve for much longer.


Can I have your stuff?Smile

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:22:00 - [1193]
 

Originally by: William DeMeo
Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed.



T,FTFY Smile

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:25:00 - [1194]
 

Originally by: Crym Synistar
just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way.


I'm guilty of this myself... but it is the way things go when you always try to fly the FOTM.

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:26:00 - [1195]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: William DeMeo
Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed.



T,FTFY Smile


t,ftfy = ?

Also ppl say this and that gets nerfed.. you should see it more of this and that gets balanced!

I cant understand why ppl especially dedicated PvPer wouldnt want some form of balance between systems. That makes all system more usable and the fights more unpredictable.

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:29:00 - [1196]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: William DeMeo
Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed.



T,FTFY Smile


l2p n00b.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:32:00 - [1197]
 

Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
Someone care to sum up the last 40 pages for me?

I dont have alot free time Wink


Look at CCP's answer (posts 970 or so), that the only thing that really matter.

Basically, CCP aknowledge the objections, some will be corrected when the patch goes live, some will be at a later time, and others just won't be.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2007.08.02 18:44:00 - [1198]
 

Edited by: SencneS on 02/08/2007 19:13:48
Originally by: Bentula
The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. But if people fail to see the advantage of a bonused, capless, primary weaponsystem on amarr ships(which just happen to have the strongest capacitor anyway) in combination with this nosnerf i think no amount of pictures and explanations will help em.


From a Damnation point of view we already had a capless primary weapon, or a weapon with bonuses... or if we wanted to fit Projectile or even Hybrid turrets, we could, if we wanted to fit HAMS and Heavy's, Rockets, standard missiles and if you really wanted to at great expense, a Torpedo!

CCP turned in my opinion the most flexible and variety ship in the game and shut the window down to a small crack that only HAMS can fit into. Check this out if you don't believe me.

With the skills and the current Damnation... You can do, EM, EX, KI, and TH damage types and do a decent amount of it.

Drones
Hornet II
Hornet II
Hornet II
Hornet II
Hornet II

High Slots
Armor Warfare Link
Armor Warfare Link
Heavy Beam Laser II - Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II - Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II - Gleam M
Heavy Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Med Slots
10MN After Burner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Low Slots
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Capacitor Power Repay II

Rigs
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I

I can actually run all those mods apart from the AB-II non-stop 24/7/365, If I need to get somewhere fast I stop a MAR-II and AB it to the location then turn back on the MAR-II to recover my tank. This is with 80-87% Resistances on ALL damage types.

Power Grid Left over - 45.5
CPU left over - 20.45

If CCP left the weapons slots alone but changed the bonuses and reduced the power grid, I can't FIT THIS! I'm too low on Power grid.

Now here is the kicker...
If I take that EXACT SAME SETUP but remove the weapons and put HAM-II's on there instead. Guess what happens.
I'm left with the following

Power Grid Left over - 240.5
CPU left over - [-2.75] As in Negative 2.75 CPU

Plenty of Power grid but I CAN'T FIT MY TANK! I need just a smigg more CPU.

Either way whoever thought a Damnation with HAMS is a brilliant idea needs to actually fly one before they go spouting off about how cool it would be to have one.

Like I said, we can already, if we so choose, fit HAMs to the Damnation, we can also fit Heavy Missiles, Lasers, Projectile and Hybrids, neither one of those gave any real damage benefit, lasers for a Range boost only. The Damnation is now as flexible as a ship you could possibly want. If this patch goes though it's no longer flexible, it comes with 1 standard setup and that's utter garbage.

Bentula
Posted - 2007.08.02 19:07:00 - [1199]
 

Edited by: Bentula on 02/08/2007 19:12:51
Originally by: Semkhet

... my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector ...


Tbh i stopped reading there.

Edit: How can people expect the devs taking their arguments seriously if they show such a lack of knowledge about even their "faviorite" ships? How many people here are even commenting about ships they have never flown, fighted against, and how many did even bother to test new setups on sisi before they whine about these changes?

Imho these changes are far from unreasonable. The only ships as such getting a nerf are those with nosboni, which will hopefully get addressed in some way. No other ships can claim nos as their primary highslot module, and you cant tell me you invested millions of SP purely into nos either, so we are all in the same boat. If worst comes to worst you might actually have to fit some guns on ships like the domi and use the hybrid bonus a bit.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.08.02 19:08:00 - [1200]
 

Originally by: RossP Zoyka
Originally by: Falun Assad
Edited by: Falun Assad on 02/08/2007 15:03:40
Originally by: CCP Fendahl


This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties:

  • Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining
  • Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus
  • Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback
  • Keeps nos effective for leeching cap


While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above.




Please reread one of the made proposals:

Originally by: N1fty
Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09
Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23

Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates.


IdeaLets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems:

ArrowOLD NOS:
First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen.
Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen.
Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen.

Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs.


ArrowNEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen.
First Nos takes 0.4*20 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen.
Second Nos takes 0.4*12 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen.
Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen.
TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s






With this mechanic Neuts are clearly seperated from Noses.

Ships wont get zapped aka insta drained.

Having a big capacitor gives you more time before suffering from the Noses effects.

The Nos is still effective for leeching, although it can be debated if there should be a stacking penalty.

Additionally this change allows you to stay alive for a very long time although being nossed by using a cap booster.

So, why dont you try this one?

Probably the only valid argument against the NOS nerf I've read so far on this entire damn thread. That being said, I still like the Dev's idea better because if someone Neuts you to hell you can make a comeback by using bunches of NOS. Your idea will gimp it 2much


I dont see your point, because if he Neuts you at 20.83 while using 15,625 (at best skill with Heavy Neut I), you will still regen at 7,17 (Heavy Nos I) while reducing his regen down to 12 Cap/s.
Bottom line, he neuts, you nos, you win.
so Neuts only make sense in combo with Noses, and vice versa if you want to kill his cap, but nos will work fine alone to sustain your own tank with out being overpowered..


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