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Mr Breakfast
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.07.31 15:58:00 - [601]
 

Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Almarez
Originally by: Mr Breakfast
Originally by: Haradgrim
I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow.

Anyone? Am I missing somehting?


If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap.

This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released.



Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time.


O'RLY?!? Give me a specific ship with a specific non-cap dependant fit to corroborate your assumptions and we can take it from there...


The only real non cap dependent ships are passive tanked shielders, which weren't affected by NOS anyway.

RossP Zoyka
Posted - 2007.07.31 15:58:00 - [602]
 

Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Almarez
Originally by: Mr Breakfast
Originally by: Haradgrim
I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow.

Anyone? Am I missing somehting?


If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap.

This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released.



Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time.


How is that different from how Nos was in the past?

Shiken Kan
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:00:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: Rennard

It is also unlogical for the fictional science of the game. How will you explain it by physics means? How come you come up with a good science description for NOS module?


actually now it would be pretty easy to explain as opposed to before where nos was a freakin perpetuum mobile.

as to the op, i like the new nos, have to see how it works out ig ofc, about the khanid ships i'm a bit unsure. imho the heretic is way too close to the flycatcher with it's rockets boni. malediction and crow are virtually the same ship (actually i think the resist bonus for an interceptor is maybe a bit too much).
the new vengeance could be nice i think, as well as the sacrilege (though i'm not sure if the lowered pg is a good idea considering the fitting requirements of hams). these 2 give amarr a nice possibility to rat in gurrista space for example.
i like the new damnation but am a bit unsure on what the reduced pg will do to it's tank and have absolutely no opinion on the weapon hardpoints or boni of the anathema (or any other covops Razz )

would have hoped for the black khanid omen tho Sad

egal069
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:03:00 - [604]
 

Edited by: egal069 on 31/07/2007 16:10:31
Edited by: egal069 on 31/07/2007 16:05:50
Originally by: egal069
I followed the directions, applied the patch 35183-35248 and than applied the patch 35248-35366 and have been receving the message "unable to connect to 87.237.38.200 on port 2600" for around three hours now, can anyone help me out here, point me in the right direction at least, even just simply tell me if the test server is actually up and what the current version may be.

Cheers


http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=566657&page=1

AHHHH, i had to go hunt down to more patches, no sleep = bad brain. What i get for wanting to test these out so bad.

Haradgrim
Systematic Mercantilism
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:12:00 - [605]
 

Originally by: Mr Breakfast
Originally by: Haradgrim
I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow.

Anyone? Am I missing somehting?


If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap.

This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released.



Since you would still be using cap for guns/tank you would constantly be going below that equilibrium point, dragging your opponents cap down with it.....

The only part of this change that is a nerf that I can see, is that Amarr will have a harder time with passive tank, no-cap guns, ships, although they get a boost to fighting NOS dependant ships.....


Alkier
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:13:00 - [606]
 

Hi guys

With this nos nerf will this will make the curse and pilgrim a pretty useless ship the curse and pilgrim rely on the target ship having no cap to be used in any PVP but if both ships have 50 % cap and the curse/pilgrim cant drain any more and having to use neutralizers but this will make the curse/pilgrim very vulnerable

Tao Han
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:16:00 - [607]
 

Dont forget to update the descriptions on the Khanid ships, bragging about strong shields on armor tankers doesnt look good Razz

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:21:00 - [608]
 

I will give both thumbs up for the new changes. Congratulations CCP. This time you hit the nail

PhantomVyper
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:25:00 - [609]
 

Originally by: Almarez

Abaddon/Apocalyse/Armageddon vs. Tempest/Typhoon/possibly Raven


I remember asking for a "specific" fit. Just throwing out ship names doesn't prove anything.

But just so you don't acuse me of trolling, I believe that a Raven with a complete passive shield tank would have a hard time fitting heavy neuts and decent missiles to really be a threat to a Geddon / Abaddon.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:31:00 - [610]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 31/07/2007 17:07:33
Personally, i like this idea. Like RL-capacitors :P But ofc with diminishing retirns formula.

However, it may change gameplay alot from the one suggested by devs...
1) For example, this may help swarm of smaller ships to drain capitals (maybe it's wrong for RL where bigger ship has thousands souls of crew, but eve utilizes one-per-ship approach).
2) Or, in other words, make small ships with naturally nosf-immune.
3) Balance skills affecting capacitor capacity and cap recharge rate. Currently it's always better to increase max cap 5% more than reduce recharge rate by the same amount (since cap recharge time doesn't change) and all corresponding modules.
Etc...
This won't affect curse so much (when sucking energy from the large ships) while killing in some way nosf-drone ships...

And and nosf will become neutralizer neutralizers :) each type has its own shelf.

eeski
Amarr
FACTS on EVE
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:32:00 - [611]
 

Edited by: eeski on 31/07/2007 16:59:19
Amarr race nerfed for a few months now on these's ships till ppl get there skills up

how long will it take to get good skills in missile to be any good to fly the damnation as the ppl who would fly them in to a battle will not be able to really now for a month or 2

Silver Shine
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:34:00 - [612]
 

GREAT the nos changes are a VERY good idea ! Finaly ! no more gallente overpower .. thx dev's

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:35:00 - [613]
 

How can anyone say that now curse and pilgrim will be the worst form its class? Are you drunk?

Which of the other recons can kill a BS? NONE only curse was able to and will coontinue to be able to, just a take a bit longer!!! For god sake, just turn your MWD on and you will be able to NOS the other guy to almost dead dry!!


All the negative response is comming in sucha childishway that i am starting to think CCP is grabbing too many players form WOW.

Holy Cheater
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:41:00 - [614]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Holy Cheater
Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one.
In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think.

You better point your destructive energy into fixing the lags than implementing some insane ideas.

Excuse me if it sounds too offensive, but I'm being killed by EVE's "evolution" for over half of year..


PS: Damnation now have no free pg and you adding it a launcher slot and removing 210pg..
Hi, let me introduce you to a module you may not be aware of...
Hi, thanks for the link, but I have a bunch of blasterthron-like (big and small) ships, so I'm a bit tired of them.
These two (dominix and myrm) were some kind of unique ships, and now we're going back to blasters..

LiBraga
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:45:00 - [615]
 

Wow....
nerfing nos to nerf nos-domis etc = good.
But it's nerfs amars nos ships = bad.
Reminds me of ECM.. and the Rook still is nowhere as good as it used to be.
I feel for the curse pilots.

However... HAMs were made to allow predominantly the caldari pilots to get close and have some dps. Ideally the cerb.
Lets compare the Cerb with the Sacrilage... what a surprise the missile specialist has been outdone and the sacrilage has a better tank aswell.

It seems that all these nerfs and buffs are sending Caldari pilots out of pvp.
Instead of nerfing things how about looking at the ships and setups which are unbalanced and fixing them without affecting those which are fine.
Every action causes a reaction. Knock on effects.

I sometimes wonder if your balancing team actually know about balancing... if not send them to uni, part time on a BSc Games Programming or Development course. Because its proven that they lack the fundimentals which are taught in year 1.

I'll stop ranting now.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:47:00 - [616]
 

I'm loving this. Nos nerf, Khanid mk II and some guy with 50 alts trying to convince CCP nobody wants this.

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:50:00 - [617]
 

I very much like the changes, especially as they complement each other. Giving Khanid Innovations technology a close-range active-tank missile flavour would have ruined the line had nos remained unchanged. The marginally useful ships in particular would have been forced into an evolutionary dead end overnight (eg AF forced into rocket range with even T1 cruisers packing multiple nos).

The nos change removes the no-brainer anti-(everything smaller than you) fitting option. Aside from giving the Khanid ships a fighting chance on their own strengths, it increases the survivability of smaller ships vs larger ones in general, which for a while has been sadly lacking. It's good news for all small ship pilots.

People can still rob the enemy of cap to an extent, but fully draining a target's capacitor now involves a fitting and performance compromise in the form of neuts which do not pay off 100% of the time, as nos did by design. For a long time I was a nos supporter, it seemed reasonable enough, but player behaviour broke it.

The nos bonus ships will adapt, remember the bonus applies to neuts. The rest, maybe people should use the weapon bonuses now like they are supposed to. Everyone who hates this change simply hates having to spend the time changing their setups and methods, nothing more. This does actually make things a lot better because everyone will be spending less time twiddling their thumbs waiting for their hitpoints to ablate before they can warp their pod. Now that is boring gameplay.

If you think the Khanid ships are overpowered, you will just have to use webs, drones and guns without nos prepping the victim. And in fact all ships which use cap for damage just got a little survivability boost.

I am very happy with these changes and can't wait to see them put into practice in their current form.

Commander Spectre
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:55:00 - [618]
 

Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:56:54
Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:55:18
Well I think this change sucks. The only difference is I'm not a CCP puppet that is afraid to say so. This was obviously done to further boost Amarr ships while leaving the rest of the races behind. Of course it doesn't affect minmtar much which is another requirement of a patch. The NOS domi is now going to be a thing of the past making it a totally usless ship. It doesn't have the firepower to take on any of the other tier 1 BS so it is just a plain drone boat. Might get some use outta it by sticking some miner IIs and mining drones on it.

So if you make a new character make sure you train up Amarr or Minmtar. CCP is out to ruin the other races with thier "Patches". Another stupid idea from CCP. What is the deal anyways? Do you only listen to Amarr whiners before you make a patch?

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:57:00 - [619]
 

One (similarly made up) scenario for fighting a cap-independent ship equipped with NEUT with an Amarr laser boat...

As the CIN (cap-independent NEUT) ship NEUTs your energy away, you NOS him down as well... the CIN is paying to kill your cap (and his cap from your NOS drain), too. Once you both get to zero cap, pop a cap booster charge, CIN doesn't have the cap to use the NEUT and your NOS cost you nothing to use (still). If the CIN pops a cap booster, you'll get energy from it. Your lasers keep running somewhat, CIN can't NEUT you and if it pops a cap booster charge, you'll NOS it down to equal anyway. So... even though you both death-spiral down to zero, the ship with NEUT will be at a disadvantage since it can no longer NEUT but the NOS ship can cap boost after that point all it wants. Put a NEUT on the NOS ship in addition and once you hit zero, the CIN will never regain cap. It's kind of like the Amarr and CIN death spiral down to 0 but then the Amarr ship bounces back up while the CIN just sits flat on the ground.

This is much better than today when everybody equips NOS and once you hit 0, you don't have any options because active NOS sucks it away (even on the CIN above).

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:59:00 - [620]
 

Quote:
The only real non cap dependent ships are passive tanked shielders, which weren't affected by NOS anyway.



Which means that any NOS ship is free to suck their cap down just as before. You may have to engage your armor rep a cycle or two even if you don't need it to keep your cap lower than your target, but you'll be able to drain the target the whole while.

Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:59:00 - [621]
 

You can stop posting here. Its useless. The changes are already coming if we like it or not. Talking about it wont change anything.

Devs, you suck.

PhantomVyper
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:01:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: Commander Spectre
Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:56:54
Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:55:18
Well I think this change sucks. The only difference is I'm not a CCP puppet that is afraid to say so. This was obviously done to further boost Amarr ships while leaving the rest of the races behind. Of course it doesn't affect minmtar much which is another requirement of a patch. The NOS domi is now going to be a thing of the past making it a totally usless ship. It doesn't have the firepower to take on any of the other tier 1 BS so it is just a plain drone boat. Might get some use outta it by sticking some miner IIs and mining drones on it.

So if you make a new character make sure you train up Amarr or Minmtar. CCP is out to ruin the other races with thier "Patches". Another stupid idea from CCP. What is the deal anyways? Do you only listen to Amarr whiners before you make a patch?


Ok, let me reply to your post by saying: LaughingLaughingLaughing

"Oh noes, the nos-domi now actually requires some thought and isn't an I-Win boat vs almost everyother ship out there!"

Again: LaughingLaughingLaughing

Fozters
Gallente
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:03:00 - [623]
 

Chance HAM's to heavy missiles insted Exclamation

Fallorn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:06:00 - [624]
 

Edited by: Fallorn on 31/07/2007 17:06:13
The Khanid MK II is wonderful because it makes for something new and fun looking. The nos change is something that is in the process of killing all the blood raider ships along with the Curse, and changes many other fittings. One other thing is the fact the Curse is developed by Khanid Innovation but it is not receiving a change. If you are going to neuter it you might as well just scrap it and give it a completely new look like the damnation and others.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:07:00 - [625]
 

The one thing i dont like about the khanid changes is that it leaves all amarr pilots, who specialized in lasers, with 1 AF that can't properly tackle on its own.

This was the vengance niche so far, since the retribution cant do it with just one med slot. So if the vengance is changed so drastically the retribution needs at least one more med slot, preferrably by sacrificing one low slot.

In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP (why isnt that fixed? there are multiple proposals on that..!).
Another thing is that few people fly amarr because amarr ships are very predictable, especially in this case. seriously, would you fly a sacrilege, if a caracal pilot can kill you, while you dont stand a chance to hit him, because he has a longer range and more med slots to dampen you?
if you really wanna boost khanid ships, give em a bonus on missiles in general, not just close range, because thats a nerf in (a bad) disguise, and people dont like that...

PhantomVyper
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:14:00 - [626]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
The one thing i dont like about the khanid changes is that it leaves all amarr pilots, who specialized in lasers, with 1 AF that can't properly tackle on its own.

This was the vengance niche so far, since the retribution cant do it with just one med slot. So if the vengance is changed so drastically the retribution needs at least one more med slot, preferrably by sacrificing one low slot.

In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP (why isnt that fixed? there are multiple proposals on that..!).
Another thing is that few people fly amarr because amarr ships are very predictable, especially in this case. seriously, would you fly a sacrilege, if a caracal pilot can kill you, while you dont stand a chance to hit him, because he has a longer range and more med slots to dampen you?
if you really wanna boost khanid ships, give em a bonus on missiles in general, not just close range, because thats a nerf in (a bad) disguise, and people dont like that...


WHAT?!?!

"In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP" - Do you know ANYTHING about this game?!?! The reason "missile ships" aren't regarded as very usefull in PVP is because they where all Caldari, i.e. shield tankers, and so had to sacrifice their tank to tackle, use speed mods, EW, etc.

Guess what the Khanid ships are? Armour tankers, so this isn't an issue anymore.

And a Sacriledge can't kill a Caracal because the Caracal has more mids and a bigger range?!?! WTF are you smoking! I can kill non-AM Caracals in my Punisher! With 2 midslots and a range of 2km on my guns!

Please, please, please, for the guys arguing against these changes, at least find some arguments that aren't actually absurd and some people qho actually know anything about PVP in this game!

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:15:00 - [627]
 

I have flown with blasters, so I don't have a problem with close range.

Hardly anyone used the Vengeance before, hardly anyone used the Damnation. The proof will be when you start seeing them in PVP. If you see them in PVP, it means the patch was good.

And Amarr being boosted with other races being left behind? Laughing

Give me a break, the Devs admitted Amarr had serious problems months ago. This isn't the last boost you will see before they are brought back up to scratch.

The Dominix can be used with hybrids by the way. I have my skills maxed in that thing on two characters, I am not complaining about it either.

JCache
Caldari
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:20:00 - [628]
 

Originally by: Hellspawn01
You can stop posting here. Its useless. The changes are already coming if we like it or not. Talking about it wont change anything.

Devs, you suck.

You're probably right, but at least we should let them know how ****ty they are.
They will definitely lose some customers because of this crap. Let's see if they can adapt or will die...

PhantomVyper
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:21:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: JCache
Originally by: Hellspawn01
You can stop posting here. Its useless. The changes are already coming if we like it or not. Talking about it wont change anything.

Devs, you suck.

You're probably right, but at least we should let them know how ****ty they are.
They will definitely lose some customers because of this crap. Let's see if they can adapt or will die...


LaughingLaughingLaughing

Can I have your stuff?

Phyridean
LEGION OF PROFESSOR CHAOS
Darkmatter Initiative
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:29:00 - [630]
 

Edited by: Phyridean on 31/07/2007 18:03:32
Originally by: Tao Han
Dont forget to update the descriptions on the Khanid ships, bragging about strong shields on armor tankers doesnt look good Razz
You mean like they did on the Manticore? Laughing
Originally by: Manticore Description
The Manticore differs from other stealth bombers by virtue of its additional launcher hardpoint.


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