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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.07.27 16:59:00 - [1]
 

Some questions I've had floating around for a long time, but I've never bothered trying to get answers for:

1. Do drones have MWDs they use to get their max velocity?

If no, the other questions are moot. But otherwise,

2. Do they suffer a MWD signature penalty? If so, how much?

3. Are their MWDs active all the time, or are they turned off, for instance, in orbit?

4. Unlike other unit types, are they able to activate their MWDs in deadspaces, incurring both the speed bonus and the signature penalty,

The main thing I'm trying to figure out is if there is another reason besides the obvious "quantity" that drones are so easy to probe in deadspaces.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.07.27 17:03:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 27/07/2007 17:03:42
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Some questions I've had floating around for a long time, but I've never bothered trying to get answers for:

1. Do drones have MWDs they use to get their max velocity?

If no, the other questions are moot. But otherwise,

2. Do they suffer a MWD signature penalty? If so, how much?

3. Are their MWDs active all the time, or are they turned off, for instance, in orbit?

4. Unlike other unit types, are they able to activate their MWDs in deadspaces, incurring both the speed bonus and the signature penalty,

The main thing I'm trying to figure out is if there is another reason besides the obvious "quantity" that drones are so easy to probe in deadspaces.

1: Yes
2: No idea, it doesn't appear they take anymore damage from missiles regardless of their actions though. I think no - at least combat-wise. See note below
3: They appear to turn on/off as needed
4: They can activate their MWDs in deadspaces but normally use them only while moving between targets. The use of them DOES appear to effect how easy it is to scan down deadspace missions.

NOTE: A drone that is not controlled is a LOT easier to find than one that is but not using its MWD. A Drone using its MWD is about as easy to find as one dead in space and has approximately the same sig strength. Drones are wierd Laughing

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.07.27 17:27:00 - [3]
 

Thanks for the quick replies. Smile

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

1: Yes

...

A Drone using its MWD is about as easy to find as one dead in space and has approximately the same sig strength.


How did you go about figuring this out?

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.07.27 17:30:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Thanks for the quick replies. Smile

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

1: Yes

...

A Drone using its MWD is about as easy to find as one dead in space and has approximately the same sig strength.


How did you go about figuring this out?

Scan probes :) When scanning you get HUGE variations of the signal strengths of drones sometimes, even when you can physically see them in a belt shooting rats.

Someone else posted similar thoughts right after Revalations 1 released during the dark ages of toasted lowsec mission runners.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.07.27 23:02:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske

How did you go about figuring this out?

Scan probes :) When scanning you get HUGE variations of the signal strengths of drones sometimes, even when you can physically see them in a belt shooting rats.


Ah, cool.

Quote:
Someone else posted similar thoughts right after Revalations 1 released during the dark ages of toasted lowsec mission runners.


Ha, that might even have been me. Razz If it was, I was just guessing though.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.28 12:27:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 28/07/2007 12:38:17
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
1. Do drones have MWDs they use to get their max velocity?


Yes.

Quote:
2. Do they suffer a MWD signature penalty? If so, how much?


+500% for t2 drones, should be the same for t1.

Quote:
3. Are their MWDs active all the time, or are they turned off, for instance, in orbit?


Only active when they use their max speed. Not active when orbiting.

Quote:
4. Unlike other unit types, are they able to activate their MWDs in deadspaces, incurring both the speed bonus and the signature penalty,


Yes. For everything.

I tried to test that a while ago to see if there is a change in targeting speed for a drone if it is in MWD mode and there wasn't so I thought they did not get a sig penality, but I tried it just now with probeing a drone of mine while it was MWDing and it got 6 times the sig as those orbiting me.

It should be the same thing in deadspace. They most definately can MWD there and I doubt they somehow do not get the sig increase in it.

In numbers this means, if we take the chance to find a dominix as base a single orbiting heavy drone is 0.3 times as likely to be found and a single MWDing heavy is 1.8 times as likely to be found.
Or, with a raven and lights this is 0.17 and 1.03.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.07.28 17:53:00 - [7]
 

Quote:
In numbers this means, if we take the chance to find a dominix as base a single orbiting heavy drone is 0.3 times as likely to be found and a single MWDing heavy is 1.8 times as likely to be found.
Or, with a raven and lights this is 0.17 and 1.03.


Thanks, Aramendal.

So the game balance questions for me are...

- Should drones be so easily probeable relative to ships, beyond the "quantity of signals" problem, and given the dominance of other weapon systems in missions, most notably missiles?

I'm thinking 'no', mostly because there'd still be the inherent "quantity of signals" issue.

- Is it feasible for drone users to offset this by using drones purely as a close range weapon system?

I haven't used drones in missions much at all, and then only as supplementary damage, but my impression is that would be difficult.

And then, if 'no', what is the best way to address this?

Possibilities:

- Remove MWD use from drones in deadspaces. Same rules as everybody else, which is nice. OTOH, it's a big nerf to mission drone boats aside from the probing issue.

- Let them keep MWD speed, but kill the sig penalty in deadspace. Obvious advantages, but not in-line with the background, and perhaps it would entail coding issues too...?

- Just raise their sensor strength (again) to make up for the penalty. Seems easy enough, without any gameplay downsides (for the mission runner). Again though, inelegant considering they shouldn't be able to use MWDs in the first place if you care about such things.

Any thoughts?

Kua Immortal
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.07.28 19:27:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Kua Immortal on 28/07/2007 19:27:27
Originally by: Aramendel
I tried it just now with probing a drone of mine while it was MWDing and it got 6 times the sig as those orbiting me.


Heck nice find Aramendel. This goes a long way to explaining why you can sometimes get a hit on multiple drones. I.e. more likely that not the drones were travelling to a new target.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.29 02:34:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 02:36:39
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
- Let them keep MWD speed, but kill the sig penalty in deadspace. Obvious advantages, but not in-line with the background, and perhaps it would entail coding issues too...?


That. They should simply remove the MWD sig effect for them alltogether. It already *seems* to have no effect on targeting them - it takes a bit over 5 secs for me to target one of my own drones orbiting me and one MWDing to a target - so they might as well remove it for probing too.

If they would not use their high speed in missions they would be virtually useless there. A t1 wasp has a speed of 350ms when orbiting (aka no MWD). This would mean they would take almost 1 minute to reach a target only 20k away.
You cannot really disable their MWD in deadspace without breaking them there.

Sensor strength.. would make them basically impossible to jam and would also greatly decrease the chance to probe them down outside missions Removing the sig penality sounds far better to me.
The only "downside" of it would be that they are less vulnerable to guns & missiles when they MWD which could be an issue in PvP, but I don't think that is a major one. And, TBH, with the general ship HP increases drones could use a bit more survivability.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.07.29 07:35:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Aramendel


Sensor strength.. would make them basically impossible to jam


I thought they just instantaneously relocked if jammed anyway. Is that not accurate?

Quote:
and would also greatly decrease the chance to probe them down outside missions


True, but still there's more signals to catch, even if individually they're quite difficult, plus the control ship.

Quote:
The only "downside" of it would be that they are less vulnerable to guns & missiles when they MWD which could be an issue in PvP, but I don't think that is a major one. And, TBH, with the general ship HP increases drones could use a bit more survivability.


Maybe. I'd be much more comfortable with that solution if they still got the normal sig penalty outside of deadspace, but perhaps you're right. In that case, it could just be called an "afterburner" and we're set.


 

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