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blankseplocked There is NO reason frigates should not be a threat to battleships!
 
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Mon Palae
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:03:00 - [1]
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Gariuys (in another thread)

...frigates should pose a threat in a group for cruisers, but be annoying flees not worthy of attention for battleships. and a cruiser group should pose a serious threath for BSs. There is absolutely no justification for allowing frigates any change whatsoever of doing damage of any kind to a battleship IMO even the idea of them jamming a battleship borders insanity. Combined fleet actions sure, but a rubberboat with a marine and a m-16 taking on aircraft carriers is what your asking for.


This is just one example I have seen in numerous threads around here where people try to suggest a more prominent role for frigates to play in EVE (we'll have to wait a bit and see how Elite Frigates may change the score). Once and for all these people need it settled that there is NO rational reason why frigates should not be a threat to battleships except as an arbitrary game design decision.

The idea that a frigate should be capable of hurting a battelship is not one merely of opinion. It is backed up by loads of historical precedent:

Knights may be equated to the land-going battleships of their day. Heavily armored and very well trained they were walking tanks dealing death and slaughter to most anything that stood in their way. Enter the crossbow. Hand it to a peasant, train him for a week (if that) and the knight is through as a force on the battlefield beaten by a 90 pound weakling with no skills. 1 v 1 the knight would likely cream the lone crossbowman but maybe not. however, it was a simple matter to put many crossbows on the field.

Move to more recent history. Ocean going battleships ruled the sea. Monstrously armored and sporting devastating cannons. Enter the airplane. For a teeny fraction of the cost an airplane could kill a battleship which were so expensive as to near break the bank of most countries. One of the most powerful battleships to ever ply the ocean was the German Battleship Bismarck. It was crippled by one torpedo from a British Swordfish bi-plane. Yes, "bi-plane"...as in WWI vintage, no canopy Sopwith Camel kind of plane. It didn't sink the Bismarck but that shot sealed its fate.

Come to present day and guess how many battleships are still in service? Zero. Submarines, planes, small missile cruisers...the battleship is too much an easy target even given their staggering armor. If you put a battleship to sea in anything approaching dangerous areas it was surrounded by a fleet of other ships for protection.

Bottom line is it is easier to destroy than to build. Frigates in EVE do not equate to a rubber dinghy with a Marine and an M-16...they equate to a frigate. And a frigate can indeed sink a battleship or aircraft carrier today (could anyway...probably be sunk before it got a chance). Frigates in EVE are not single pilot fighters. The story on them is they are 100m+ long and have a crew of several hundred.

This is NOT to say a frigate should be able to PvP a battleship into oblivion in EVE. Merely that they should have a chance of being a threat to a battleship in numbers just as 50 planes would be sent against aircraft carriers in WWII and hope that a few got their shots in (as happened in the Battle of Midway). Frigates still should die much more readily than a battleship and get swatted out of the sky but with sufficient numbers, good tactics and a little luck there is no reason they shouldn't give a battleship pilot pause about what he or she is up against and if retreat might not be the better choice.


Masochist
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:09:00 - [2]
 

I think it has less to do with reality than with people who have been playing 8 months not wanting to be killed by someone that started last week. Think of frigates as level 1-20 ... Battleships are for people level 100+. The little guys shouldn't be a big threat.

Dust Puppy
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:17:00 - [3]
 

I agree that people that have been playing since day one shouldn´t be vulnerable for a player that has been playing for weeks. However I think that people in frigs with very good skills should be very dangerous even in a frigate.

CowinSpace
Minmatar
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:21:00 - [4]
 

Frigates have a crew of between 1-3 personnel (including POD bound pilot) and are up to 20M long (or around that).

Cruisers have a crew of several hundred and are around the100M/200M mark.

Frigates in a group should be able to harm a lone BS, but 1 alone would never get passed the drones.

Deadflip2
Gallente
HeartVenom Inc.
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:27:00 - [5]
 

.... damn u frigate lovers, bss are 1000 times as costy as a frigate, frigates are to take out indys then run like hell only..... or maybe gank a cruiser

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:29:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 28/01/2004 22:29:54
Drawing RL-comparisons will get you nowhere. EvE is not reality.

Fact is: 30% of Eve's ships are useless while CCP intended them to be the common ship in this game, used by the largest part of the pilots, playing a key role in combat. People who say battleships should be invulnerable to eve have never read any background stories, they´ve never read the devchats from the old days way before beta even started... and they obviously have the opinion that gameplay balance isn´t needed and people should fly one ship only.

Flying 1 shipclass only while 2 others are rarely being used is not good gameplay, no matter how you look at it.

Deadflip2
Gallente
HeartVenom Inc.
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:35:00 - [7]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gariuys (in another thread)

...frigates should pose a threat in a group for cruisers, but be annoying flees not worthy of attention for battleships. and a cruiser group should pose a serious threath for BSs. There is absolutely no justification for allowing frigates any change whatsoever of doing damage of any kind to a battleship IMO even the idea of them jamming a battleship borders insanity. Combined fleet actions sure, but a rubberboat with a marine and a m-16 taking on aircraft carriers is what your asking for.


This is just one example I have seen in numerous threads around here where people try to suggest a more prominent role for frigates to play in EVE (we'll have to wait a bit and see how Elite Frigates may change the score). Once and for all these people need it settled that there is NO rational reason why frigates should not be a threat to battleships except as an arbitrary game design decision.

The idea that a frigate should be capable of hurting a battelship is not one merely of opinion. It is backed up by loads of historical precedent:

Knights may be equated to the land-going battleships of their day. Heavily armored and very well trained they were walking tanks dealing death and slaughter to most anything that stood in their way. Enter the crossbow. Hand it to a peasant, train him for a week (if that) and the knight is through as a force on the battlefield beaten by a 90 pound weakling with no skills. 1 v 1 the knight would likely cream the lone crossbowman but maybe not. however, it was a simple matter to put many crossbows on the field.

Move to more recent history. Ocean going battleships ruled the sea. Monstrously armored and sporting devastating cannons. Enter the airplane. For a teeny fraction of the cost an airplane could kill a battleship which were so expensive as to near break the bank of most countries. One of the most powerful battleships to ever ply the ocean was the German Battleship Bismarck. It was crippled by one torpedo from a British Swordfish bi-plane. Yes, "bi-plane"...as in WWI vintage, no canopy Sopwith Camel kind of plane. It didn't sink the Bismarck but that shot sealed its fate.

Come to present day and guess how many battleships are still in service? Zero. Submarines, planes, small missile cruisers...the battleship is too much an easy target even given their staggering armor. If you put a battleship to sea in anything approaching dangerous areas it was surrounded by a fleet of other ships for protection.

Bottom line is it is easier to destroy than to build. Frigates in EVE do not equate to a rubber dinghy with a Marine and an M-16...they equate to a frigate. And a frigate can indeed sink a battleship or aircraft carrier today (could anyway...probably be sunk before it got a chance). Frigates in EVE are not single pilot fighters. The story on them is they are 100m+ long and have a crew of several hundred.

This is NOT to say a frigate should be able to PvP a battleship into oblivion in EVE. Merely that they should have a chance of being a threat to a battleship in numbers just as 50 planes would be sent against aircraft carriers in WWII and hope that a few got their shots in (as happened in the Battle of Midway). Frigates still should die much more readily than a battleship and get swatted out of the sky but with sufficient numbers, good tactics and a little luck there is no reason they shouldn't give a battleship pilot pause about what he or she is up against and if retreat might not be the better choice.




one of the evestorys say where the pod comes in first, jovians: "with a pod you can controll a ship with far less personal and might even be able to controll a frigate alone or with a few ppl", and ive never ever seen a frigate 100m+ on my frigate scannah Rolling Eyes

JackDonkey
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:40:00 - [8]
 

I'm not a pvp person really, but I read the forums a lot. Here is my conclusion.

TeamA come in with 8 battleships, and in order to beat them TeamB need 8 or more battleships.

TeamA comes in with 30-40 battleships, TeamB comes in with 40-50 and creates lag which equals not being able to fight.

So there needs to be a way to threaten a fleet of 30 battleships with a rock paper scissors type method where an equal force of 30 people maybe setup a little differently can at least provide enough of a threat to cause them to fall back and change strategy.

Basically what I'm saying here is that more rock paper scissors style fleet combat would create smaller fleet battles and less lag. There needs to be a solution other than numbers of battleships.

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.01.28 22:50:00 - [9]
 

Half the people whining about frigs being useless in pvp have never used them in pvp. I have seen my enemies use them to great advantage. As part of a fleet, they are going to be priority targets due to their speed/jamming abilities. That is not a bad thing. Time spent dealing with a frig allows your heavy hitters to do a lot of "free" damage.

yall need to get around more. People ARE using frigs/cruisers in pvp.

s0cks
The Scope
Posted - 2004.01.28 23:02:00 - [10]
 

My thoughts,

I'm in a corp where I have had first hand experience of EVE-veterans trying their hand at some PvP for the first time. Their first kill (using a frigate) after a year of Eve.

What is their response:

"Most bloody fun i've had in ages"

That is fact. Not a single person has said, "Hmm this isnt for me, i'd much rather mine a rock for $13 p/m."

IF frigates DID pose a threat to 'Mr.8 Months Mining 4 BS" then there would probably be a whole host of changes to the way corporations evolved. PvP would come down to skill, the right fleet, and controling that fleet. It would't just be "Oh I've got the biggest ship I should be safe now". It'd be "Right, I've got the biggest ship, I can be a useful asset in the fleet". And when building a fleet to attack it wouldn't be "Yer, just looking for BS pilots", it'd be "Right need 4 or 5 BS's, 10 cruisers, 20 frigates....".

You get one I'm saying? PvP is FUN! Whether pirating or bounty hunting, it pumps the blood and gives adrenaline. This can't be denied. We should be promoting anything that encourages PvP, rather than whining that we might loose our ship that we took so f*ing long to save up for.

As someones sig on this forum says: You are not your ship.

I beg of anyone who hasnt tried some proper PvP jus to give it ago.

Nightfang
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.01.28 23:10:00 - [11]
 

s0cks is right on target. Another thing I like to add though; the personal liberation of flying frigates is SO great. I used to be in a battleship, always dead scared of what the Fountain Alliance would hurl at us.

When I'm in my little nugget of a frigate, I just don't have those worries. Should I be destroyed, I will have lost half the cost of one of those 8 turrets I bought for my big battleship. Should I be podded and have to replace my implants (which seldom happens if you are flying a frigate since most people don't launch an overly amount of missiles at you and the lag from an exploding frigate is miniscule) I STILL would only have to pay half of what I would need for a new battleship.

Frigate PvP is fun in that aspect too - many people seem to forget.

Mon Palae
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2004.01.28 23:12:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
Frigates have a crew of between 1-3 personnel (including POD bound pilot) and are up to 20M long (or around that).


Half right. I was going off of something else I once read but the current database ( http://www.eve-online.com/shipdatabase ) supports the very small crew on a frigate but indicates they are much larger than 20m. The Tormentor for instance is listed as 100m long, 45m high and 50m wide. Naturally CCP's consistency fails them. An Auguror cruiser a little more than twice the size of the Tormentor (200m long, 130m high, 90m wide) has a crew of 520. Go figure...

I understand this is a game and does not have to reflect 'reality'...nor should it. However, people are complaining that the very concept of a frigate hurting a battleship is inconceivable. While the game does not mirror reality it should make some sense to aid in the suspension of disbelief and the concept that a frigate should NEVER amount to ANY threat against a battleship is just wrong. Certainly a n00b in his Velator attacking a battleship will truly not have a prayer but a half-dozen 5+ million skill point pilot sin L-III frigates should be of some concern.

s0cks
The Scope
Posted - 2004.01.29 00:18:00 - [13]
 

A frigate should simply not just be classed as the next ship for a new player.

Only the Kestrel, and recently the Rifter have just fallen out of this category and are now considered as viable ships to fight with in PvP.

Some EW frigates are now also being introduced into PvP. Griffin and Vigil for example. I guess now everyone has hit the top of the food chain (i.e. got a battleship) they are starting to explore the vast array of frigates.

Veteran Eve players are starting to use frigates, but still nothing more than for a bit of fun. When it comes to a big battle (i.e FE vs. FA). Out comes the Scorpion, or woteva.

People are aso starting to realize wot frigates can do. A LOT of people I have fought recently have equipment such has heavy drones, smartbombs, F.O.F's, and MWD's. All of these modules that counter anything a frigate can do.

Its tough for frigate pilots.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2004.01.29 00:23:00 - [14]
 

The advantages of frigates are speed and suprise. I think frigates are rather cool for piracy, taking down industrials, or even cruisers.. but honestly, when it comes to battleship slugfests, leave the frigate at home and bring your Apocolypse, or whatever.

Frigates in the right situations, are superior to battleships, frigates in the wrong situations, are cannon fodder. I personally would like to see frigates get better in PvP, even larger scale battle, but heavy drones, smartbombs, and FOF, make that pretty impossible.

Eltigre
Posted - 2004.01.29 00:31:00 - [15]
 

Hey 2 cruisers are a serious threat to a BS but only IF both cruiser pilots have good skills and 1 of the 2 cruisers dies and both cruisers begin firing first.

I would think a small group of fast Kestrels with cruise missiles should be able to kill a BS - just gotta play on the weakness of the BS; Tempests usually have big long range guns so get in close and stay within the accuracy fall-off - the other BS's have similar weaknesses. Heavy combat drones are no threat cuz they be easy kills... Shocked

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.29 00:36:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Jash Illian on 29/01/2004 00:38:58
Quote:
A frigate should simply not just be classed as the next ship for a new player.

Only the Kestrel, and recently the Rifter have just fallen out of this category and are now considered as viable ships to fight with in PvP.

Some EW frigates are now also being introduced into PvP. Griffin and Vigil for example. I guess now everyone has hit the top of the food chain (i.e. got a battleship) they are starting to explore the vast array of frigates.

Veteran Eve players are starting to use frigates, but still nothing more than for a bit of fun. When it comes to a big battle (i.e FE vs. FA). Out comes the Scorpion, or woteva.

People are aso starting to realize wot frigates can do. A LOT of people I have fought recently have equipment such has heavy drones, smartbombs, F.O.F's, and MWD's. All of these modules that counter anything a frigate can do.

Its tough for frigate pilots.


Rifter isn't a new player ship. I tried taking a new player along for their first hunting experience both of us in Rifters, pre-frigate microwarp drive. Simply put, he couldn't make the Rifter do what I could make it do. And he nearly got smoked for it.

That said, a frigate should NOT be a threat to a battleship in terms of firepower. Not by itself. A lone frigate can trap a battleship, setting it up for someone bigger to kill. But beating it by itself unbalances the game being played.

Maxed skills for flying a frigate, the frigate pilot will still come up way short in time investment compared to someone that meets the bare requirements for a Tier 1 battleship. That investment does deserve some recoginition, which comes from the battleship's innate defenses against smaller attackers.

A battleship piloted by a n00b can still get pwn3d by skilled pilots flying 'lesser' ships. But giving frigates the firepower to take down a battleship themselves would completely undo Risk vs Reward.

Kalki Nibiru
Gallente
Corporation 35
Posted - 2004.01.29 00:43:00 - [17]
 

When Elite frigates come into the game they should carry damn near the same slot lay out of level 3 frigates of comparable race, however they should have much more CPU, Powergrid, Shields, Hull and Armor.

With their increased powergrid, frigates should be able to carry medium weapons and modules, but have the shields, hull, and armor in between a regular frigate and a cruiser.

What this does is gives a group of frigates a deadly threat because smartbombs and heavy drones alone wont cut it if they vastly out number you. With this type of lay out, it also segues quite nicely to the introduction of Destroyers (antifrigate ships).

Esentially, elite frigates can take down a battleship, or a cruiser, but certainly not on their own.

If we keep going down the path of the ship or module that requires the most skill points to use will always win path, then this game will always be 'whomever has the most skill points wins'.

Kai Duracknar
Minmatar
DURACKNAR MINING CORP
Posted - 2004.01.29 01:13:00 - [18]
 

it's quite simple. alone Frig should be able to damage all classes of ship.

I'f you are commander of a BS and you LET one frig badly hurt you then more fool you. you should be able to tak him in one hit. (he has to hit you hard and offten to even get past your shields.)

A swarm of Frigs is a different matter. Like fireants a swarm of small things can with comparitive ease cause major dammage (but with heavy losses).

Don't want the smaller ships hurting your precious BS. buy your self some drones or fly with Cruiser and Frig escort (as you are ment to....)

Hasek
ALLIED TACTICAL TECHNOLOGIES
Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:00:00 - [19]
 

<2 sec lock timeShocked
that battleship aint runnin Twisted Evil

i personaly belive frigates are essential to PvP now with the quick lock time they have if the pilot knows what he/shes doing the side with the frig will win. you dont need much to tilt the balance to your favor

once when i was camping with my mates we destoryed a scorp in under 10 seconds, i warp jammed him in less then 2secs and he couldnt run away from the 4 battleships that blasted himVery Happy

Flavius Renatus
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:35:00 - [20]
 

Well this is the second thread that I have read were someone says (in essence):

I have been playing longer and have a BS some newbie that has been playing for 2 weeks should not be able to hurt me in a Frigate.

OMG!!! What an absolute idiotic thing to say.

So let me get this right. CCP should do the same thing as everyother mmorpg has done, and that is to set up the leveling THREADMILL...

So every new guy (like myself) should mine and run agent missions only. Hmmm... seems like a great way to drive away people.

Frigates need a viable roll in Fleet Battles.

No where and I mean NO WHERE have I read a post were someone has said that A Frigate ALONE should be able to take out a Battleship. Everyone on the Pro-Frigate side has stated that it should be possible for a squad to down a loan Battleship. There is no common sense reason, that a Frigate should not be considered a Threat.

God forbid we should enter into the game some Tactical Deversity in ship combat. An you have to pull a big gun off that Tub you are flying and replace it with a small or medium turret.

No Lets Just Leave It as is, only those who have played for six months to a year should be allowed to participate in (for some) the whole reason that they purchased the game.

I hope CCP reads this thread and takes to heart the leasons that many other game producers have learned the Hard and Expensive Way. The leveling treadmill is a sure slide to failer.

enough said.

Flavius Renatus
(Ancient Roman Historin)

Real Power is Something you Take!!!


Robotek Hybrid
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:52:00 - [21]
 

Bottom line is Frigates should not be able to take out a BS maybe in large swarms with enough drones, but the type of manpower needed to kill that single BS with frigates as opposed to the number of people needed to kill it in their own BS's is the dividing line. You will never find enough people that would fly frigates to take down the single BS when 2 of you could take it down in BS's. anyway.. thats it Razz

Dreez
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:53:00 - [22]
 

4 Frigates can easely kill a battleship, you
just need to learn the skills.

Also depends on the BS-pilot, if he has
any skills worth mentioning - he will be able
to kill those friggs , easy.

Frigates can kill BS, and BS can kill frigates.

Artegg
Gallente
Operation Ferocious Lemming
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:54:00 - [23]
 

the way i see this is that frigates have one role, and that is to get the first lock. From the first lock they can target jam, warp jam, etc, from there if they hang around it should be game over welcome to the clone point. but if they hang around intill the battleships get a lock then that is their role complete they should then bug out and let the battleships do what they have to do to take out the target. The whole idea of frigates taking out battleships is silly.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.01.29 03:00:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 29/01/2004 04:16:18
Quote:

yall need to get around more. People ARE using frigs/cruisers in pvp.


Guru you're looking at it from the wrong side. Frigates used in PvP are Griffins, Vigils, Kestrels and Rifters (from which I only know from hearsay that they´re being used).
That's 4 out of 21 frigates being used... 2 of them only becuase there are no range limitations on EW modules yet. That still leaves us with 17 useless ships in the game.

There are no real scouts in this game, no real dronekillers, no real bombsquads, no real interceptors, nothing. All you see is battleships. This is not what you call shipclass balancing.

In a balanced system, every frigate in this game is useful. A Condor rocks as a scoutship, just like the Navitas. An Incursus kicks ass because it kills other frigates and drones fast, just like the Rifter or Merlin, which are two more kickass frighunters.
In a balanced system, someone who uses a drone/FoF/smartbomb combo is not automatically safe against frigs because there are ways to counter him, even if you're not in a bship and even you're not equipped with jammers.
In a balanced system, you would see more than 1 type of ship being used in large battles. A Frigate would be just as useful and important as a cruiser or battleship.
Don´t tell me frigates are anything near balanced towards the other classes because 3 or 4 of them are actually useful. Videos prove almost nobody is using frigates in PvP, gameplay proves it, even you prove it with your post.

Then again you people need to stop talking about frigates killing battleships. This is not about frigs killing battleships. It´s about them having a purpose in this game besides exploiting gameplay weaknesses like non-existant range limitations on EW modules.

You don´t see battlecruiser-only fights in Homeworld do you?

Quote:
That said, a frigate should NOT be a threat to a battleship in terms of firepower. Not by itself. A lone frigate can trap a battleship, setting it up for someone bigger to kill. But beating it by itself unbalances the game being played.


Here we have someone who actually understands what this is all about.
It's not about frigates killing battleships. It's about giving frigates a viable and important role in PvP that makes them a must-have for every pilot in this game, no matter if high-level or not. Just like a battleship is a must-have for every player doing PvP, a frigate should be aswell... just like the cruiser. Every single ship in this game must have a purpose because otherwise you may just take it out of the game to save bandwidth.

As long as drones instagank frigates, as long as CMs and Torps are able to hit them and as long as frigates do not receive the equipment they need to play their roles, I see the shipclass balancing in this game as non-existant when it comes to frigates... and I´ll keep whining about it, that much is for sure.

While I tolerate lag, technical problems and dodgy implementation of patches, having ships in the game that serve no other purpose besides being a luxury shuttle for an experienced player is a no-go for me, I´ll blame you and call you names for this CCP until you finally get your minds right and fix what needs to be fixed since more than 10 months Twisted Evil

Jayad
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.01.29 04:16:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Jayad on 29/01/2004 04:20:48
Edited by: Jayad on 29/01/2004 04:17:38
So many threads on this subject, clearly I think people are getting scared that eve is going to turn into a “Clash of the Titans” only game. So many MMORG’s have gone this way, are we there already?

It’s disappointing but don’t believe CCP will let this continue much longer, EVE has far more potential than that. I think it was planned to be similar to this:

Quote:
IF frigates DID pose a threat to 'Mr.8 Months Mining 4 BS" then there would probably be a whole host of changes to the way corporations evolved. PvP would come down to skill, the right fleet, and controling that fleet. It would't just be "Oh I've got the biggest ship I should be safe now". It'd be "Right, I've got the biggest ship, I can be a useful asset in the fleet". And when building a fleet to attack it wouldn't be "Yer, just looking for BS pilots", it'd be "Right need 4 or 5 BS's, 10 cruisers, 20 frigates....".


s0cks nice synopsis :)


Lastly, I wish people would stop putting a “spin” on people’s pro-frigate views, it’s not necessary and sounds desperate.

Thx J

crudger
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.01.29 06:47:00 - [26]
 

Certain frigates in 8-12 ships, taking the absolute strengths of the frigate, can take out a lone BS and not lose a frigate in the process, and the battleship would not be able to do anything but hope to get to the gate or the station. This is with an experienced BS pilot. Drones, FoF missiles, smart bombs, missiles, guns won't be able to do any damage either.

Do some more home work and testing. You be amazed in what you can do with a frigate.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Risen Angels
Posted - 2004.01.29 07:14:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Gariuys (in another thread)

...frigates should pose a threat in a group for cruisers, but be annoying flees not worthy of attention for battleships. and a cruiser group should pose a serious threath for BSs. There is absolutely no justification for allowing frigates any change whatsoever of doing damage of any kind to a battleship IMO even the idea of them jamming a battleship borders insanity. Combined fleet actions sure, but a rubberboat with a marine and a m-16 taking on aircraft carriers is what your asking for.


Tell that to the last two cruiser pilots I fought singlehandedly in my frigate. One fight came up a draw (I might have done some armor damage, but I didn't destroy the ship. My frigate was untouched), and the other ended up with the cruiser pilot waking up in a clone center.

I'm not saying this to crow about my combat prowess. I didn't do anything other than take advantage of my craft, and those advantages worked out into me scoring hits while no hits were inflicted upon me. I'm not an uber combat pilot, either. I've been playing for a while, but my skills and attributes are pretty scattered. If I can do this, then any 2 or 3 month combat pilot can.

I'll give you a hint, too. I piloted the same frigate for both fights, and it's not one of the "4 useful" frigates mentioned here.Wink

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2004.01.29 07:18:00 - [28]
 

frig's cant be a threat not with how the game is right now... BS locking you down in 2sec or under and now the agility nerf in skills... its great ya, the thing is that it hurts even the frig's as they req speed and agility etc... so nerfing a skill like that hurts even the small guys...

a BS should never be able to lock a frig in 2sec it should be at least 5sec IMORolling Eyes

Vel Kyri
Amarr
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2004.01.29 08:10:00 - [29]
 

Frigates can be very useful, and deadly if the opposition is not prepared for you.

some things that may go a distance in making frigs more useful in battle:

1) up the ecm power. let a frigate be able radically hamper the targetting of a ship. right now its next to impossible for a single frigate to be able to jam a battleship - or even more than 1 battlehsip. (maybe give frigates boosted targetting range as well?)

a single dedicated ecm ship should be able to lock down 4-5 enemy ships without trouble.

2) eccm moved into high slots. if you are trying to avoid being locked down, you should have to suffer for it. (is it possible to boost a friend's targetting strenght?)

3) indirect targetting - let a frigate be a "spotter" for other ships - let it do the targetting for a battleship with appropriate modules :)


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.29 08:28:00 - [30]
 

Honestly while the desire to prove the value of frigates is admirable, it's misguided.

You can kill a man with feathers. Drop a ton metric ton onto him and he'll be just as dead as if you dropped a metric ton of bricks onto him. You just have to use more feathers than bricks.

Does that mean it's the most efficient and effective use of feathers to kill a man? No. Not when a pillow full of them will smother him and make him just as dead. Easier to aquire a pillow full of feathers than a metric ton tooTwisted Evil

The point is there's more than one way to use frigates to kill a battleship. Raw firepower isn't the most efficient and effective means. That's trying to gather too many feathers. Working together with other ships, utilizing their strengths to complement each other is a far more efficient and effective method to achieve the end goal: destruction of the target.


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