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SonOTassadar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.07.23 19:33:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: CCP kieron
I had to take the blog down over the weekend, as it had been published prematurely. The blog has been completed and re-published with more information. Enjoy!


Originally by: porkbelly
However, the Python programmer will however benefit from some brand new cool features in 2.5 that weren't present in the old version, including:


While you were at it, you should have corrected his sentence structure. Very Happy

CCP kieron

Posted - 2007.07.23 19:47:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: SonOTassadar
Originally by: porkbelly
However, the Python programmer will however benefit from some brand new cool features in 2.5 that weren't present in the old version, including:


While you were at it, you should have corrected his sentence structure. Very Happy

I added in the extra "however" when reviewing the blog for publishing. Embarassed Thanks for pointing that out.

band0fdevs
Gallente
Band of Dev's
Posted - 2007.07.23 22:47:00 - [33]
 

well as CCP is a big component and media PR source for stackless python community its in their interest to take on board CCP remember they flew the creator of the language to iceland to assist with one of the big patches in the past. CO sponsoring events etc. Good to see they find something they can work with.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2007.07.24 01:23:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: CCP kieron

I added in the extra "however" when reviewing the blog for publishing. Embarassed Thanks for pointing that out.



n00b Cool

Franconis
Gallente
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:35:00 - [35]
 

Go ccp! This is a change that looks promising, especially in the eyes of a programmer. Tech 2.5 software ftw!

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:05:00 - [36]
 

So the real question is: of these manifold and undefined performance increases, will this have any effect on desyncing?

Nofonno
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.24 13:23:00 - [37]
 

Moving from one version of programming environment to another (be it only a "minor" version number change) poses multiple threats that stem in multiple factors... In normal words, it's helluva work (pardon my spelling) and programmers/migration managers know what I'm talking about.

Unable to say right now, but I strongly hope that Singularity is already running the new Python base and is being rigorously tested by the new folks in the QA department. I have seen some summons for stress tests on Singularity, so I strongly hope it's for stress testing the new Python engine.

Keep up the improvements! I keep my fingers crossed for you.

Having said that, I do have some thoughts™ (Austin Powers):

I do not intent do diminish or otherwise degrade all the hard work CCP has put into EVE-Online development, but how about getting some real iron and some real programming language?

Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2007.07.24 15:05:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Al'Lan Mandragoran
Originally by: Herio Mortis
Originally by: Victor Valka
Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23
AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side.

EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All. Wink

Stackless python is also used in the client.
And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.Laughing)


You got it almost right. There is no One language to rule them all, except Ruby.




I think it is time for the Lords of COBOL to return...

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.07.25 02:01:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Nofonno

I do not intent do diminish or otherwise degrade all the hard work CCP has put into EVE-Online development, but how about getting some real iron and some real programming language?


Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java?

You did... Laughing

Nofonno
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.25 07:26:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:59
Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:33
Originally by: Erichk Knaar

Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java?

You did... Laughing


Yes, actually I did. There's nothing funny there... moving from one interpreted language to other interpreted language is 'no loss, no gain' situation, so the interpretishness (whew, what a word) is preserved.

There's nothing wrong with interpreted languages. There's a study that shown that Java is actually faster than C++ in multiple scenarios. I've found that old link for the unbelievers. Portability is their main advantage (however, this does not yet apply to EVE), but I dare to say that interpreted languages are more feature-rich and their code is more manageable.

Written in Java... Hm... Not true. When something uses Java VM (the p-code, the .class files format) it does not mean it has to be actually coded in Java programming language. See Wikipedia entry and read the first paragraph. I recall there was Bistro, a Smalltalk implementation that used Java VM for portability sake.

As you surely know, in large projects you have to compromise between performance and manageability. I'm just trying to show another path EVE could have taken. There's a time in all long-term projects - and this holds even more true for software projects - when entropy does its thing and it's more economical to scrap the whole thing and build it anew with fresh technology. Where would Windows be were it not for Windows NT?

(edited to supply links)

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.07.25 07:41:00 - [41]
 

And now that you have the MagicTM Python 2.5, please have a look on the client and code a proper one.

Starting with proper threading and blocking code, ending with an UI that's actualy usable.

I find it funny that the EVE client has the same problem as Windows. Network interrupts have the highest priority. Very funny ...

(I still have nightmares about IE dloading at 700kbps and killing the system while Mozilla on the same machine manages 2800kbps without a hitch).

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2007.07.25 11:20:00 - [42]
 

So when can we expect the 'juicy performance boost' again? Confused

I think it's funny that the area around Aunia/Dodixie is now laggier then ever even though the number of people in said systems hasn't increased all that much over the last few weeks.

But hey, must be client side i guess Rolling Eyes

Nate D
Hell's Rejects
The Council.
Posted - 2007.07.25 16:21:00 - [43]
 

When will we know the exact details of the performance boost? I'm very eager to find out.

-Nate

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.07.25 17:20:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Nofonno
Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:59
Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:33
Originally by: Erichk Knaar

Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java?

You did... Laughing


Yes, actually I did. There's nothing funny there... moving from one interpreted language to other interpreted language is 'no loss, no gain' situation, so the interpretishness (whew, what a word) is preserved.

There's nothing wrong with interpreted languages. There's a study that shown that Java is actually faster than C++ in multiple scenarios. I've found that old link for the unbelievers. Portability is their main advantage (however, this does not yet apply to EVE), but I dare to say that interpreted languages are more feature-rich and their code is more manageable.

Written in Java... Hm... Not true. When something uses Java VM (the p-code, the .class files format) it does not mean it has to be actually coded in Java programming language. See Wikipedia entry and read the first paragraph. I recall there was Bistro, a Smalltalk implementation that used Java VM for portability sake.

As you surely know, in large projects you have to compromise between performance and manageability. I'm just trying to show another path EVE could have taken. There's a time in all long-term projects - and this holds even more true for software projects - when entropy does its thing and it's more economical to scrap the whole thing and build it anew with fresh technology. Where would Windows be were it not for Windows NT?

(edited to supply links)


Well, the current fortress implementation is actually written in Java (I compiled it from source last night). Having said that, I have a lot of respect for Suns engineering capabilities. I just happen to think Python is a perfectly adequate language for what is being attempted here. The overall maintainability of the Eve code base, I can't comment on, because I've never seen it. I don't think its really fair to blame the language for anything though.

Nofonno
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.26 11:14:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Erichk Knaar

Well, the current fortress implementation is actually written in Java (I compiled it from source last night). Having said that, I have a lot of respect for Suns engineering capabilities. I just happen to think Python is a perfectly adequate language for what is being attempted here. The overall maintainability of the Eve code base, I can't comment on, because I've never seen it. I don't think its really fair to blame the language for anything though.


Perfectly agree. Nice to find a reasonable man on the forums, once in a while. Python is indeed adequate, but it never hurts to explore alternatives Smile

From what I have experienced since the Python upgrade and client patch is the TQ going down twice in ~30 hours and having slightly lower performance. As I have said previously, migrations are quirky matters and I pray CCP guys and girls will make it work... eventually... soon™ Wink


rodgerd
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.07.26 19:39:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Erichk Knaar


Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java?

You did... Laughing


Python is not, in any meaningful sense of the word, an interpreted languange.

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.07.26 20:21:00 - [47]
 

Shocked

Do explain....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language

rodgerd
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.07.27 07:24:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Shocked

Do explain....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language


Python is compiled to an intermediate bytecode; the bytecode is exectured. If you consider Python an interpreted language, I guess you consider C# and Java interpreted languages.

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.07.27 08:22:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 27/07/2007 08:21:58
I actually do consider C# and Java (without JIT) to be interpreted languages. Bytecode still needs to be interpreted before it runs.

rodgerd
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.07.27 11:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 27/07/2007 08:21:58
I actually do consider C# and Java (without JIT) to be interpreted languages. Bytecode still needs to be interpreted before it runs.


C source needs to be interpreted before it runs. So does assembler mnemonic. Your definition is so broad as to be nearly worthless.

Anyway, your objection to the performance of "interpreted languages" is ridiculous, since your definition includes languages whose performance is comparable to C and C++ code.

Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Eternal Ascension
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:04:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Andargor theWise
Originally by: Al'Lan Mandragoran
Originally by: Herio Mortis
Originally by: Victor Valka
Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23
AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side.

EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All. Wink

Stackless python is also used in the client.
And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.Laughing)


You got it almost right. There is no One language to rule them all, except Ruby.




I think it is time for the Lords of COBOL to return...



COBOL = Compiles Only By Obscene Luck

FORTRAN '77 FTW

Caligulus
Legion of Lost Souls
Posted - 2007.07.28 07:27:00 - [52]
 

N3rds

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:58:00 - [53]
 

Python is completely the correct language for a game like EVE.

Why?

http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/acm-ws/sld001.htm

Go read.

Python for the win

Solbright altaltalt
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.07.31 09:01:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: rodgerd
C source needs to be interpreted before it runs. So does assembler mnemonic.

There is nothing interpreted about C or Assembly, except maybe in some weird limited educational tool. C is a purely compiled language - producing native machine code. And "assembling" is the very process of translating to it's represented machine code. The resulting binary file is separate from the sources but, being machine code, is for a specific CPU.

If you aren't going to call something like Java/Python/whatever an interpreted language then you'd have to say it's running on an emulator of an imaginary CPU. Even BASIC programs are translated to a "tokenised" byte code before execution!

The diff between BASIC and Java is that the byte code is standised with Java and therefore can be separated from the source code. This is why Java and it's ilk is considered superior to a traditional interpreted language.

And, also, like BASIC, Java can be further compiled from the byte code to machine code. But that's another topic that is not really dealing with the language design any longer.



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