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Bein Glorious
SAKUMA DROP
ANAHEIM ELECTRONICS Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 04:17:00 - [121]
 

I think most of the opening post could be summed up with "POS spam sucks", and I agree with that. Its pretty stupid that the value of a system can be judged by how many moons it has, and with more moons being worse. (which is pretty counter-intuitive; you would think lots of moons would mean lots of very profitable moon mining, but noooo...)

If you fixed or at least alleviated that, I think it'd make things a bit easier.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.07.20 04:49:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Bein Glorious
I think most of the opening post could be summed up with "POS spam sucks", and I agree with that. Its pretty stupid that the value of a system can be judged by how many moons it has, and with more moons being worse. (which is pretty counter-intuitive; you would think lots of moons would mean lots of very profitable moon mining, but noooo...)

If you fixed or at least alleviated that, I think it'd make things a bit easier.


Not really, Jade is just a fool who doesnt understand how people work, how risks work, or how the entire concept of a game doesnt translate into theatrical or real life examples.

Bein Glorious
SAKUMA DROP
ANAHEIM ELECTRONICS Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 04:51:00 - [123]
 

That too, but POS spam is still pretty stupid.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.07.20 04:55:00 - [124]
 

There are a lot of good points in those posts but I'm not sure you're allowed to post on behalf of someone who has been permanantly banned from the eve-online forums even if it is a damn shame that they are still banned after all this time.

Unfortunately, none of this will actually change the direction eve is taking. With the new soverignty system, CCP have made a commitment with regard to the direction that 0.0 warfare will take. I highly doubt they will just take a complete U-turn on that one.

Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:04:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
Unfortunately, none of this will actually change the direction eve is taking. With the new soverignty system, CCP have made a commitment with regard to the direction that 0.0 warfare will take. I highly doubt they will just take a complete U-turn on that one.

We're not asking for a U-Turn, we're asking the devs to swirve a bit in the road in the name of fun.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:08:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Bein Glorious
That too, but POS spam is still pretty stupid.


She isnt arguing against POS spam, she is arguing against "like, the man, man".

As for POS spam, the main problem is that it isnt "fun". But its not "not fun" because of anything inherent about pushing someones **** in, or being or not being able to destroy an outpost.

Its not fun because its not combat. And that is the ONLY reason its not fun. At the moment we are at the limitations of the hardware, but who could say that a pos siege wouldnt be fun if there was minimal lag?

Jade would have you think there is something inherently wrong with POS combat that makes it bad, there is not. It is just that you can take systems without combat in some cases.

The only solution that is required is to lessen the number of moons you need to hold. Sovereignty doesnt need to go down the drain[which is stupid in and of itself], POSs dont need to go down the drain[though they could], and outposts dont need to be destroyable.

Jade is of the idea that there is some end "goal" of Eve besides what you make of it.

Eh. i could go on forever, i wont, not worth it.

Exortius Amarrus
No.Mercy
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:11:00 - [127]
 

Great post, great read.

Kirex
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:12:00 - [128]
 

Yes! Make outposts destructible and scrap sovereignty. :)

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:19:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Nyphur
Unfortunately, none of this will actually change the direction eve is taking. With the new soverignty system, CCP have made a commitment with regard to the direction that 0.0 warfare will take. I highly doubt they will just take a complete U-turn on that one.

We're not asking for a U-Turn, we're asking the devs to swirve a bit in the road in the name of fun.

While you might not be asking for a major change, what's being suggested in jade's post is nothing short a complete halt and reversal of the current game mechanics. CCP have shown with each patch that they want to make fights over territory long, drawn-out affairs. I do agree that they've made some really ****ty decisions with 0.0 warfare and I'm bloody glad I'm not a part of it any more. I do think the soverignty system is bull**** and I know first-hand what kind of committment it is to run POS, even ones for reacting etc.

When I was in ISS, I distinctly remember going to a friend's house one weekend and having to ask if I could download the eve client and install it on his computer because I needed to tend to POS for ten minutes every day. I touched on the topic here before the revelations 2.0 patch and most of it is still relevant. There are some really minor changes that would significantly improve gameplay for people who run POS. Multiplying the fuel tank and silo sizes by four and getting rid of huge unanchoring times would do the trick, in my opinion.

As for 0.0 warfare, POS shouldn't be used as shield generators to keep your outpost invulnerable and keep soverignty but that's the direction CCP have chosen and I highly doubt that they'd change their minds this far into development along that line.

Ryas Nia
Minmatar
Veto.
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:31:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ryas Nia
Your alliance wakes up to find all the belts in its home system mined out....


Just to throw some more thoughts in here... This is a central issue that I've only seen flagged up properly once in this thread.

Logging on and finding someone on the other side of the world has broken all your stuff during the night sucks

Any change which requires destructible anything needs to have an answer to this as a prominent if not central feature. Addressing timezone issues is always a difficult problem, because invariably somebody has to do an alarmclock op if both sides are to even see each other, but you can't deal with this issue by simply pretending it doesn't exist. The same applies to same-timezone alarm clock ops - if you could kill an outpost in six hours, who here thinks [insert your favourite bogeyman alliance] wouldn't organize themselves to pop hostile outposts during the owners' night-time, even if it meant getting the whole alliance online at 2am?


While im flattered that im quoted in a dev post, your response seems to be missing the #1 central idea to eve. Let the social and political structure fix this not the devs. If your corp/alliance is all one time zone then you go to bed knowing the risks, this encourages you to hire/recruit people from around the world...... OR even better create political alliances where you mutually defend each others territory in exchange for being able to sleep at night.

As a the leader of an alliance, albeit a small one, I know first hand how hard it can be when your isolated by timezones. I would much rather though that this be my problem than CCP's anything you guys add to the game to counter this ends up being a huge timesink, such as POS mechanics are now. Its a good system, just not for this game.

You provide the rules, lets us worry about using them to our advantage. If that means having people from the other side of the word in my alliance then fine, if it means selling myself to a friendly local alliance for a mutual protection NAP even better. If it means some alarmclock ops to get the drop on our enemies, well its still our choice, and theirs to counter our attack.

The #1 reason Fimbulwinter will never go 0.0 is because POS's really suck. I know im not the only one who feels that way, the new sovereignty rules just make it even worse. 90% of our combat and game experience happens in cruisers and battle cruisers. Were simply not interested in haivng to fly around in huge capital ships blasting at POSs for 3 hrs, then a week later repping our own back up, just for the few fights in between where we might have some fun.

Would we, a pvp focused corp and alliance use capital industrial ships? or industry mods on our industrial ship? yes, i would love to do some true ninja mining in 0.0, or be able to use logistics (not combat) in long term wars. Less POS, less outpost, more conflict, and fighting even if it costs you some subscription base... its worth it in the long run to keep active and paying members.

Sir JoJo
Minmatar
x13
Posted - 2007.07.20 05:55:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Sir JoJo on 20/07/2007 05:59:54
Theres much truth to the op Post.

ive always explained ppl in EVE will loose u **** and not like WOW and other ****.

much have changed and blowing up station HELL YEAH. EVE is about blowing up **** and the day they introduced POS warfare OMG still gives me nightmares, but i can say i am SOOO thxfull i am not the ones fueling the 1 POS or 2 bob have ;)

and so if u lost a station? well i am sure ppl would changed there way to back when u could lose a station to 5 bs in a hour, and maybe use more stagging points and that way make the wars More moving, make the Fleet battle itlsef the important thing again. and not the part where u think well **** it we lost 25 bs but we defended our lil pos so we good.

i know it would not be easy to change eve back in the old direction but i think many of the players that wasent around bcak then would say OMG did you just Go pew pew every night ? 50 vs 50`? 1 hours slugfest go to bed and repeat the night aftar again?
well Yes we did. well yeah sometimes we fought over a station but hell it took 1 hour and u had it, and yes the day after u lost it. back then showing u numbers in u claimed region ment something 23/7 if u did not responf u station was lost.

think ill stop here or else ill end up making a post as long as Jade.

But to sum it UP we need more PEW PEW PEW and Less POS war.

infact maybe just change so u can Max setup 5 pos in a sys even if theres 50 moons.

Or maybe change it so the way POS works now whit reinforced and so to stations? No pos sov but make the station have a time like the reinforced and that way u either win or lose u station u will fight for u station and the pos can be used for the moon mining and so, Capital for Station capturing.

Flor Jon
Gallente
Friendship 7 Corporation
No Comment.
Posted - 2007.07.20 07:44:00 - [132]
 

I also agree. Eve is one big capfest and everything lower than that seems to have no impact.
Spacestations should be able to be destroyed and wars should mean something else then 'watch out in empire'.


Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2007.07.20 07:56:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Nifel on 20/07/2007 07:58:38
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ryas Nia
Your alliance wakes up to find all the belts in its home system mined out....


Just to throw some more thoughts in here... This is a central issue that I've only seen flagged up properly once in this thread.

Logging on and finding someone on the other side of the world has broken all your stuff during the night sucks

Any change which requires destructible anything needs to have an answer to this as a prominent if not central feature. Addressing timezone issues is always a difficult problem, because invariably somebody has to do an alarmclock op if both sides are to even see each other, but you can't deal with this issue by simply pretending it doesn't exist. The same applies to same-timezone alarm clock ops - if you could kill an outpost in six hours, who here thinks [insert your favourite bogeyman alliance] wouldn't organize themselves to pop hostile outposts during the owners' night-time, even if it meant getting the whole alliance online at 2am?


Just have a countdown on the station's self-destruct. Say... a week's worth of countdown time before it explodes, if the original owners recaptures it, they can set the timer to reverse. Ie, if the enemy held it for a full first day, the original owners recaptures it on the 3rd day, reverse the timer, holds it for a full day and then the enemy captures it again, the timer would be on 5 days till the explosion (7 - 3 + 1 = 5). Should give people a real incentive to fight for the station, and give everyone time enough to organize attacks/defense.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 08:39:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Just to throw some more thoughts in here... This is a central issue that I've only seen flagged up properly once in this thread.

Logging on and finding someone on the other side of the world has broken all your stuff during the night sucks


You know what? Getting your T1 Hauler that carried most of your belongings destroyed in high-sec sucks too.
Getting your Navy Raven with officer modules blown up when it jumps into a low-sec gatecamp sucks too.
Going on holiday for a week and finding out the station you have all your stuff in has changed hands sucks too.

Some things in EVE entail risks, 0.0 is supposed to be the riskiest of all. Getting all your stuff blown up overnight should be a possibility. This is EVE you know? Keeping all your stuff in one station is a risk you took yourself.

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Any change which requires destructible anything needs to have an answer to this as a prominent if not central feature. Addressing timezone issues is always a difficult problem, because invariably somebody has to do an alarmclock op if both sides are to even see each other, but you can't deal with this issue by simply pretending it doesn't exist. The same applies to same-timezone alarm clock ops - if you could kill an outpost in six hours, who here thinks [insert your favourite bogeyman alliance] wouldn't organize themselves to pop hostile outposts during the owners' night-time, even if it meant getting the whole alliance online at 2am?


As you said, eventually somebody has to set an alarmclock in the current system. If that is a practice the current system tries to circumvent, apparently it fails horribly.

Current game mechanics actually reward alliances to have most of their members active during a certain part of the day instead of being spread over timezones. You need blobs to be effective, and mechanics help you to force enemies to fight you in your main blobbing time. I think alliances should be rewarded for having presence all around the clock not vice versa.

Even if you want to solve these 'timezones/sucks to have my stuff destroyed while I wasn't there' problems, you *don't* solve it by adding intrinsically boring activities that cost a lot of time.


Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2007.07.20 08:47:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Hardin
If Outposts were 'explodable' 0.0 would be even more one-sided and one-dimensional than it already is! If BoB/MC had the capacity to blow up Outposts from the start, would any Outposts other than BoBs (or BoB pets) actually exist now? They would imho been stamped on at birth.


I completely agree with your point about the scenario of rampaging outpost-popping alliances being a bad thing, but I'm also against anything player-made being completely indestructible.

Destroying an outpost should be possible, but it shouldn't be something that can be done in a weekend's raid. The alliance wanting to destroy the outpost should have to demonstrate clear, undisputed dominance of the system it's in before that option becomes available - it shouldn't be a matter of just turning up on it's doorstep with a sufficiently large capital blob to chew through x billion HP.

My initial thought would be along the lines of requiring someone to secure a given level of sov over the system (level 2 or maybe 3), and once they do having some sort of destruct/make destroyable option (maybe requiring a corporate vote to ensure security from spys).

Combined with the destroyable station services, this would offer a good range of options. Want to deny them outpost functions - raid the services. Want to permanently scorch the earth - put in a longer-term commitment commensurate to that which built the outpost in the first place.

Another point I agree with from this thread is that sitting there repping all day is silly and boring. However, I also believe that significant recovery time is vital if any sort of longer-term conflict is to be maintained - otherwise it just becomes successive bouts of ctf.

One solution to this may be a repairing anchorable (with anchorable behaviour similar to warp bubbles rather than POS). This would offer automated repair to structures and outpost services, but would not be able to repair player ships etc. It would also have a very low number of HP, so it would be ineffective during a fight. There would also need to be limits on how many can be effective in a given area etc to prevent ridiculous spamming of them.

This would offer an alternative to fleets of very bored carriers sitting there unopposed, while not affecting the balance of repping during a fight. And while it doesn't require players to sit there mindlessly, it does require sufficient player presence in terms of patrols etc to counter lightning raids intended to take out these repairers. You replace boring repair sessions with an oppourtunity for small-gang combat that can have a larger tactical significance, without it being able to take out the big infrastructure on it's own.

Originally by: Keta Min
another possibility would be instead of conquering, shooting it to a burning wreck which you wouldn't be able to dock at anymore but with the possibility to restore it, first a provisory docking bay and then all the services one by one.


Interesting idea, and maybe not that hard to implement by simply making docking another shootable station service (though obviously one that's a real pain to take out).

Hastrabull
Caldari
Rave Technologies Inc.
C0VEN
Posted - 2007.07.20 09:18:00 - [136]
 

Eve pos and outpost warfare proposition

In that link, you have my proposition regarding pos/outpost warfare.

Zigg Omelo
NorCorp Enterprise
Norcorp
Posted - 2007.07.20 09:27:00 - [137]
 

I agree with many points in this thread.

Cut down on the POS clutter, make it more risky but easier to manage.

Oh and only the owner can blow up an outpost. so you need to conquer it and then blow it up if that is what u like. so remaining strategical ouposts remains in the hands of a new owner. or gets blown up in a scorched earth tactic by the defeated party.

I am not sure what would have been left of feythabolis/paragon soul if that feature was implemented YARRRR!!

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2007.07.20 09:27:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
You know what? Getting your T1 Hauler that carried most of your belongings destroyed in high-sec sucks too.
Getting your Navy Raven with officer modules blown up when it jumps into a low-sec gatecamp sucks too.
Going on holiday for a week and finding out the station you have all your stuff in has changed hands sucks too.


Yes, getting your T1 hauler blown up sucks, but you were there when it happened and either had a chance to avoid it, or acted such that it happened.

Yes, getting your navy raven blown up sucks, but you were there when it happened and either had a chance to avoid it, or acted such that it happened.

Yes, going on holiday for a week and finding out the station you have all your stuff in has changed hands sucks, but the rest of your alliance should have been around during that week to at least have a chance of preventing it.

Originally by: Merdaneth
Some things in EVE entail risks, 0.0 is supposed to be the riskiest of all. Getting all your stuff blown up overnight should be a possibility.


Yes, if you're there flying it overnight. If someone else wants to come blow up all your stuff, you should be given the chance of defending it without requiring you to play 24/7.

Originally by: Merdaneth
As you said, eventually somebody has to set an alarmclock in the current system. If that is a practice the current system tries to circumvent, apparently it fails horribly.


You can never fully circumvent this, the current system does mitigate it considerably though. Yes, someone eventually has to set an alarmclock, but they get warning of the need, and a set time when they need to. This is a vast improvement on having to alarmclock all the time just in case someone turns up.

The problem with stripping out the timezone-compensating measures is that you would end up not getting any actual fights at all - things would degenerate into almost entirely timezone-dodging structure-shooting. With no mechanic to force one side into the other's timezone, the two sides would have no reason to ever actually meet in a proper fight. It would be all combat via structure proxies, with the little red health bars keeping score.

Hastrabull
Caldari
Rave Technologies Inc.
C0VEN
Posted - 2007.07.20 09:37:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Hastrabull on 20/07/2007 09:38:13
in my idea (posted above) you can destroy station, but it is not easy. Even small alliances can defend themselfs against power blocks like BOB/Goons.

edit
Mix of jump brigdes/cyno jams/outpost hardeners will make it very hard to take constellation but still possible with correct logistics and will to fight

Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.20 09:46:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Matthew

The problem with stripping out the timezone-compensating measures is that you would end up not getting any actual fights at all - things would degenerate into almost entirely timezone-dodging structure-shooting. With no mechanic to force one side into the other's timezone, the two sides would have no reason to ever actually meet in a proper fight. It would be all combat via structure proxies, with the little red health bars keeping score.


Or rather, we would see how alliances adapt, and become more diverse in their player-base. Everyone would want to have good mix of aussies, japanese, russians, europeans and both north and south americans. Which such a playerbase there wouldn't be any need to such "time-zone compensating".

Furthermore, while you agree that while you're on holiday, it's OK to expect others to defend your stuff for you, it is not while you're asleep?

BTW your sig is very wrong. Remember what happened to missiles, for instance. Or Thoraxes. Or many other countless things.

Tuahn
Perkone
Posted - 2007.07.20 09:59:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Nifel

Just have a countdown on the station's self-destruct. Say... a week's worth of countdown time before it explodes, if the original owners recaptures it, they can set the timer to reverse. Ie, if the enemy held it for a full first day, the original owners recaptures it on the 3rd day, reverse the timer, holds it for a full day and then the enemy captures it again, the timer would be on 5 days till the explosion (7 - 3 + 1 = 5). Should give people a real incentive to fight for the station, and give everyone time enough to organize attacks/defense.


I really like this idea, it gives a period of a week in which to fight over a system, gives a single hotspot of activity and solves the alarm clock problem. You can always just reverse the 12 hours they held it for during YOUR 12 hours of peak time.

Dr Stone
Caldari
Gone Viking
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:24:00 - [142]
 

Wow! This Op really know how to whine.

Basically, what he seems to be advocating, is for the devs to change the game so that the only people who should ever be allowed to do the territorial game of EVE is the alarm clock players. The ones without jobs, or studying at college or some university. The only people who can ignore timezone differences and get up anytime an attack is launched at your multibillion station or POS.

The only way to make what the Op is suggesting happen, is to drastically lower the cost of.. basically everything. Or you -will- lose players from the game. What the Op failed to realize is that people invest RL time and RL money into this game. Its a hobby. People wouldnt be playing this game if several months of hard work to get a pos or station together to hold some territory would go poof without a chance to defend it because a pirate alliance had a different timezone (not to mention pretty much losing everything that might be stored in the station).

This guy is just whining in the same manner many other are. Make the game into what -I- want *stomp foot like a kid* I want! I want! I want! Me Me Me! Ignore everyone else paying for the game! Whaaa! They should all be made to realize that they are paying for this game to be blown up by meee!

Give it a rest. Seriously.

Hastrabull
Caldari
Rave Technologies Inc.
C0VEN
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:27:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Dr Stone
Wow! This Op really know how to whine.

Basically, what he seems to be advocating, is for the devs to change the game so that the only people who should ever be allowed to do the territorial game of EVE is the alarm clock players. The ones without jobs, or studying at college or some university. The only people who can ignore timezone differences and get up anytime an attack is launched at your multibillion station or POS.

The only way to make what the Op is suggesting happen, is to drastically lower the cost of.. basically everything. Or you -will- lose players from the game. What the Op failed to realize is that people invest RL time and RL money into this game. Its a hobby. People wouldnt be playing this game if several months of hard work to get a pos or station together to hold some territory would go poof without a chance to defend it because a pirate alliance had a different timezone (not to mention pretty much losing everything that might be stored in the station).

This guy is just whining in the same manner many other are. Make the game into what -I- want *stomp foot like a kid* I want! I want! I want! Me Me Me! Ignore everyone else paying for the game! Whaaa! They should all be made to realize that they are paying for this game to be blown up by meee!

Give it a rest. Seriously.


WTS reading with understanding skill

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:39:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Arvo Henderson
Or rather, we would see how alliances adapt, and become more diverse in their player-base. Everyone would want to have good mix of aussies, japanese, russians, europeans and both north and south americans. Which such a playerbase there wouldn't be any need to such "time-zone compensating".


While that would be an ideal situation, I'm skeptical about how practical it really is, especially for smaller alliances or those trying to establish themselves. In that situation I would be wary of ending up with a few massive power-blocks that can easily attract a spread of timezones effectively locking out new and up-coming alliances simply because they're not large or established enough to achieve all-timezone coverage initally, and cannot develop to the point where they can because those who already have keep smacking them down while they sleep.

Originally by: Arvo Henderson
Furthermore, while you agree that while you're on holiday, it's OK to expect others to defend your stuff for you, it is not while you're asleep?


Holidays you take by choice a couple of times a year and it's not unreasonably burdensome for you to make arrangements for that. Sleep you are physically forced to do approx once a day and is significantly harder to make arrangements for. I don't think it's unreasonable for the game to make more allowance for one than the other.

Originally by: Arvo Henderson
BTW your sig is very wrong. Remember what happened to missiles, for instance. Or Thoraxes. Or many other countless things.


Well, my sig is mainly aimed at things that can't be changed simply by editing a database value (i.e. performance issues, technical limitations etc).

Besides, just because a change happens to correspond to a forum whine, doesn't mean it was caused by that whine. People whine about stuff that annoys them. Some of it annoys them because they just don't agree with it. Other stuff annoys them because it's genuinely broken. I've seen plenty of stuff whined about that have never been changed, because there's nothing wrong with them.

Frygok
Minmatar
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:41:00 - [145]
 

Could those incredibly silly people who keeps claiming the OP is "whining" or "want the game to be the way she wants it" please STFU and actually read the posts?

This was never meant to be posted as a topic starter here. It was a half-post/half-rant made on page 4 in a thread, and was her personal opinion about a series of issues. Ofcourse there is cursing, personal opinions. If it had been a topic starter here it probably would have been worded more diplomatic. But FFS, can't you people just look ****ing beyond that, and debate the actual points? The majority seems to have no problem doing it.

On topic, I kinda like the whole having a weeks fight over outposts, where time to destruction is calculated on who's having the station. Imagine having an alliance where several Outposts are under seige during a week. Split forces ftw!

Also, about the whole timezone issue. That is a PLAYER issue. Sure as hell not a Dev issue. We need to adapt if stuff can be blown up without defenders deciding reinforced. Get some cross-TZ corps and recruits. What CCP is doing now, is the exact opposite. Timezone blobs extraordinaire. How is that making anything better?

And oh, industrial ships ideas ftw!

Sprzedawczyk
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:46:00 - [146]
 

You Star Faction people are idiots.
It's like membership in your corporation was a license to be moronic on eve-o forums.
Starting from Jade-constantwhine ((s)he got that nick for a reason, btw):
The single most frequent(even more frequent that whining about lag, ffs!) player whine in pre-POS era was that "YOU CANNOT DESTROY YOUR ENEMY". You could only try to literally bore them to death otherwise they would never, ever stopped coming. That was when BS was comparatively worth as much as a capital and and there were usually 5-20 BS deaths a day.
there is also a reason why pseudo-'hardcore' EVE back then had 70k players and territorial warfare EVE of now has ~200k.

To the rest of you SF people:
Here is one way ticket to China shard - you want server with one(two) megapowers to which everyone has to lick ass if they want to live outside of high-sec - just go to China and don't try to DESTROY EVE for everyone, ok?


Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:48:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Dr Stone
Wow! This Op really know how to whine.



This doesn't start well - it starts by trolling. People is abusing so much the term "whiner" that it is going to become completely devoid of meaning.

This thread is not a "whine", is a perfectly reasonable, although radical, complain, which clearly stands apart from thousand of threads which can summarized in the phrase:

ZOMG! CCP just nerfed my clearly overpowered fitting/preferred way of making ISK/whatever.

Don't fool yourself, this thread is no whine. It is pretty damn serious.

Originally by: Dr Stone

Basically, what he seems to be advocating, is for the devs to change the game so that the only people who should ever be allowed to do the territorial game of EVE is the alarm clock players. The ones without jobs, or studying at college or some university. The only people who can ignore timezone differences and get up anytime an attack is launched at your multibillion station or POS.



I don't know for sure you've really read what the OP said. From where do you draw these conclusions? Seems you're just echoing what another guy has said. By repeating you don't make any point stronger. At least cite the guy you've taken this argument from.

Originally by: Dr Stone

The only way to make what the Op is suggesting happen, is to drastically lower the cost of.. basically everything. Or you -will- lose players from the game. What the Op failed to realize is that people invest RL time and RL money into this game. Its a hobby. People wouldnt be playing this game if several months of hard work to get a pos or station together to hold some territory would go poof without a chance to defend it because a pirate alliance had a different timezone (not to mention pretty much losing everything that might be stored in the station).



This thing you complain about (people losing months of "hard work" in a few secs) happens all the time, everywhere in Eve. It is a feature of Eve - not a bug. You say this is a "hobby" very much like aero-modelism? Now that is bullcrap, and you know it. This is no Second Life man. This is a game, not a hobby like building models of WW2 planes or steam-powered ships with toothpicks - a game where you have to compete with other *people* and where *nobody has the guarantee to win*. It is not a virtual community crap-place, cluttered with RL corporate advertisement, where the only escapism allowed lies in what? Watching some dolls of you and some random guy having virtual sex? Come on.

What I found really really laughable and somewhat annoying is that concept of "hard work". Have you ever worked in construction, as a waiter or as a clerk in a department store? Does your back ache after a long session of "hard work in Eve"? Do you really know what's the meaning of "hard work" at all? You're just and plainly ridiculous.

Originally by: Dr Stone

This guy is just whining in the same manner many other are. Make the game into what -I- want *stomp foot like a kid* I want! I want! I want! Me Me Me! Ignore everyone else paying for the game! Whaaa! They should all be made to realize that they are paying for this game to be blown up by meee!

Give it a rest. Seriously.


He's not. Stop trolling and put forward arguments that do not rely on "how much money and time I got building some random stuff". You're not even an original troll, tbfh.

Frygok
Minmatar
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:53:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Matthew

While that would be an ideal situation, I'm skeptical about how practical it really is, especially for smaller alliances or those trying to establish themselves. In that situation I would be wary of ending up with a few massive power-blocks that can easily attract a spread of timezones effectively locking out new and up-coming alliances simply because they're not large or established enough to achieve all-timezone coverage initally, and cannot develop to the point where they can because those who already have keep smacking them down while they sleep.

Holidays you take by choice a couple of times a year and it's not unreasonably burdensome for you to make arrangements for that. Sleep you are physically forced to do approx once a day and is significantly harder to make arrangements for. I don't think it's unreasonable for the game to make more allowance for one than the other.



No offense, but isn't that the way it works now? Two huge power blobs in often different time zones? The rest are pets/allies/renters/buddies/whatever to these two factions(except Tri, you guys shoot anything Razz). Ofcourse I know there are others aswell, but the huge majority of 0.0 players are already affected by two huge blobs.

However, if these two huge blobs had to defend their areas by more than spamming POS's, and had to actually fight outside their own timezone aswell, hell, they might even realise that managing a smaller area would benefit them in the long run, thus creating regions that either smaller alliances could grab, or several factions could fight for.

Regarding the timezone thing, I still think it's up to the players to manage to defend their stuff whenever an attack is imminent. I fail to see why CCP has to be the referee. Is it unfair? Well, alot of things is unfair. It's unfair when you attack a small group of battleships with a gazillion carriers and a titan, but it happens. Too bad.


Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.20 11:00:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Matthew

While that would be an ideal situation, I'm skeptical about how practical it really is, especially for smaller alliances or those trying to establish themselves. In that situation I would be wary of ending up with a few massive power-blocks that can easily attract a spread of timezones effectively locking out new and up-coming alliances simply because they're not large or established enough to achieve all-timezone coverage initally, and cannot develop to the point where they can because those who already have keep smacking them down while they sleep.



Diversity is completely against "monolithic power-blocks". The more diverse, the more complicated though. Maybe *that* it is the problem, isn't it. We all want to keep it simple, don't we? Rolling Eyes

Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.07.20 11:02:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Sprzedawczyk
You Star Faction people are idiots.
It's like membership in your corporation was a license to be moronic on eve-o forums.

That's almost worthy of going in my sig... but not quite Razz.

Back on track, imagine a hypothetical scenario...

BoB has a station come under attack in System 1 from the Coalition, who in this case outnumber and outgun them. Rather than forcing a fight there, their high command decides to hit their exposed assets to either make them pay for what they're blowing up, or pull off their main force to relieve any station defenders and repair damage done.

That's a bit dynamic for an example, but you get the idea.


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