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Jon Asus
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:19:00 - [1]
 

I didn't post this, I'm just re-posting it.

Quote:
(incoming wall of text warning - skip to the end for the executive summary)

Its the territorial alliance game really. It does suck. And the reason it sucks is the mechanics introduced by CCP to allow empire builders to "stake their claim" and hold territory afk. Sovereignty, POS, and all that goes with it defensive and offensively is just a load of old trash to be quite brutally honest.

My current theory is that itís the evil of introducing things that can't be destroyed that leads to these problems. The outpost spam of invulnerably settlement that can be captured but not burned just leads to more and more real estate and less ability for one side of the wars to simply slash and burn the ground and return the lawless regions to lawless anarchy.

I really don't like the way that player owned outposts can't be destroyed. They are a player investment that never really go for ever and promote boring stalemates and ever increasing trashy littering of 0.0.

And the problem is that at each stage in the recent (couple of years) development of the game CCP have listened to whiners complaining about actually having to fight for their status and position in game.

Empire war decs vs alliances? Oh my god increase the price because we don't want ASCN getting ganked! (thanks mate)

Station ping pong? Quick invent some bull**** sovereignty system to stop BKG changing hands every night and discomforting the people who lose access to their stuff while on the losing side.

Wah!!! Our enemies attack while we are sleeping? OMG lets have afk siege defense guns and delay the whole thing while introducing the concept of pvp without spaceships.

POS going pop? Increase those hitpoints and make the things damn near invulnerable outside of capship blobs.

Oh we've made territory too hard to conquer? Lets introduce some more ships to address this stuff and force people to sit in them FOREVER!

Its silly, but it essentially derives from the fallacy that people (ie lots of people rather than just a handful of influential big alliance leaders) actually wanted Eve online to change from multiplayer elite with ace space battles and everyone having a shout at painting the political landscape into some crappy "space simcity" where a few puppeteering masterminds get to run mini space empires of thousands of subhuman peons for their own personal delusions of grandeur.

Seriously. I was there for the earliest crazy territorial conflicts in this game back when losing 30 battleships would cripple an alliance and gut its morale and that stuff was excellent. Borders changed - people did deals, spun schemes, made bold offensives and heroes meant something. Then we had the big GNW and eve exploded into another superb fight with capturable stations changing hands every night and people being tested to endurance for months and months and the game still being the most addictive invention since designer drugs and finally ending with the complete collapse of one side and universal chaos.

But somewhere since the whining of players for less vulnerable possessions in 0.0 and the misplaced capitulation of the devs have sucked a lot of the fun out of space empire fighting in the game.

Doesn't matter how you talk about "virtual communities" and "conflict sandboxes" and go on about the fascination of seeing evolving powerstructures in 0.0 and whatnot for fancy coffee table mmorg publications ...

The cold hard reality is that having to put up and fuel more POS in a system than your enemies to have "the right" to actually shoot up their otherwise (and still profoundly) invulnerable space station is fundamentally bull****.

Why can't we destroy space stations?
Why do POS miraculously make shields invulnerable?

*cough game balance - cough*


It continues...

Jon Asus
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:20:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
But its the same kind of "game balance" that makes WoW characters not drop their loot when you kill them. Its the same kind of "game balance" that limits fights to arenas in Guildwars - that enforces "nice" behaviour in D&D online and appeals to the lowest common denominator casual softcore whine majority that occupies most mmorgs and thats the core of the damn problem right there ...

Eve is not and never was supposed to be just like .... "most mmorgs".

Ships get blown up!
People lose all their isk!
Clones get podded and if you aren't careful you lose skillpoints too!

Its a hard and harsh game, and the reason I think a lot of us got so damn addicted to the thing was the reality that pootling around in our first pimped out cruiser with our neato named laserbeams was actually pretty dangerous in lowsec and nullsec and seeing a bunch of red cursors hanging around a gate could get the heart beating.

Those guys could blow up everything you've achieved in the last couple of days/weeks/even months and nobody was going to stop them. Submit or fight back - your choice. And what a damned fantastic and miraculous choice that was and everyone that's stuck with eve long term and fought tooth and nail for their wealth and influence and reputation in this game stand head and shoulders above the cud-chewing bovine sleepwalkers that play the other **** out there.

But then the rot set in:

"Why would we bother to build an outpost if its going to get blown up?" (random big alliance carebear whinger bastard)

Gee I dunno. Maybe the same reason people fly faction battleships in pvp - or fit snake sets and fly into gate camps - or do anything in this game that involves risk. Its a ****ing buzz thatís why!

But instead CCP caved and introduced this whole bogus machinery to remove the immediacy of pvp risk and reward and ensure that although you might "lose control" of your outpost it wasn't really going to get blown so don't cry too hard. (who knows you might get to take it back).

And suddenly "sieges" are not sieges any more - they are tower deployment and boredom tests. You don't have to even shoot at the enemy to "fight". You just run logistics, run a couple of clients, maybe blob the enemy so badly the server dies from time to time and otherwise reduce the grandeur and glory of Eve online to the interactivity of some ****ant little text browser thing while your executor and master rubs his or hands together and cackles about how lovely it is to be ordering 1000 human "peons" around the virtual map like its a game of rts starcraft (with a considerably worse frame rate).

Now I understand where CCP are coming from. I think they have romanticized the whole business of giant fleets and POS sieges and capital ships getting bigger and bigger with massive booms and weaponry firing at increasingly tougher fixed structures silly invulnerable stations.

They love the *idea* of this. You can tell from the promotional videos, you can tell from reading Oveur - from listening to these devs waxing lyrical about the beauty of cap ships cyno'ing in formation and releasing their engines of destruction ... etc etc.

But their eyes are bigger than their bellies in delivery terms:

Firstly the servers just can't handle it. We all know this - I think many of them know it - eve is a pretty old piece of software now in any case and these ever increasing numerical requirements for fleet battes and POS takedowns are killing the game quite literally. I mean sheesh - if a 10 vs 10 skirmish ends up desync'ing and jerking to a laggy halt when a dozen wrecks and drones are left on the field what really is supposed to happen when 400 goons jump into system?


It continues...

Jon Asus
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:20:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
I think all this talk of adding staged objectives and smaller goals for smaller gangs is just CCP staring open-mouthed at the oncoming traffic and unless they address the essential problems of the arms race buildup and unstoppable POS and outpost spam in the game they are never going to get control of lag and performance let alone make steps to making conquest warfare fun again.

And that brings me onto the secondary point that they (ccp) have I think lost sight of what people play this game for - they've been seduced by the concept of space empires and the grandeur of BOB vs Goons and whatnot and just lost sight of the fact that the reality of those fights without end is just ... well poor.

Stories need climaxes - wars need endings. Star Wars ends with a x-wing putting a photon torpedo up the deathstar's tailpipe.

It doesn't end with:

Darth Vader "Deploy another large POS at the forest moon governor Tarken, with sovereignty this fully armed battlestation is now INVULNERABLE to the enemies guns muahahaahahhahaha muhahhaahha!"

Luke "awww ****, thats another two weeks hauling ice of us"

***

At a fundamental level eve is a game - sure its a hardcore game but it is an entertainment medium and needs to be entertaining and for the people fighting these wars there needs to be plot development, excitement and thrills and spills. BoB need to be watching FIX getting their outposts with billions of isk worth of crok and ships exploding one by one at the moment.

Molle needs to be logging into his teamspeak to the sound of a thousand carebears crying out in pain as the goonswarm obliterate another outpost and watching a thousand mining barges tumbling and burning in the Querious sky.

BoB need to be striking back across the galaxy and using their MC auxiliaries to SLASH AND BURN the enemies territories and cause real and significant fiscal harm to outpost owners who dare move against them.

After a war on this scale 0.0 should be a ****ing wasteland of burning ships, stations and broken dreams. A conflict like this should be epic - exciting - brutal - I want to be reading about CEO's losing their entire corp's wealth to their headquarters getting nuked by onetime allies deciding to deny the territory to an advancing enemy.

We should be seeing isk squandered and lost on a VAST scale and everyone involved in this brutal bitter slugfest should be fighting to the limit of their endurance and winning and losing in beautiful moments of critical tension that leave tumbled wrecks of player stations as legacies in their wake.

But instead - well you know it, everyone knows it. We've got a delayed action version of the original station ping-pong with less excitement, less pvp, more lag, more boredom and the virtual equivalent of 1000 mmorg gamers watching their blank screens and idly clicking the mouse like so many little orc peons endlessly carrying ore from the coalface in warcraft.

Crazy really. Of course in a way I have endless admiration for the pure personal charisma and drive that can get so many (presumably) intelligent and creative people signing into a mmorg to continue the mindless drudgery of cubicle-monkeydom for the "greater glory" of some virtual alliance graphic - but fundamentally, you got to admit its a bit sad when all is said and done.

In the eve wars in the past you had an end in sight. You had a way of crushing your enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women. You knew if you kept the faith and made the fleet battles and kept blowing up their ships then eventually you'd break the back of the foe and see the war end in a glorious final fling and endless rush to empire of the enemy.

Now? can it end? Does anyone have the patience to siege 10100101 POS? Does anyone care enough about anything in the game to oppose 4 levels of super sovereignty and inch forward in painful minute progression attrition to unpick these things?


It continues...


Jon Asus
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:21:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
I'm guessing Molle does. And the current Goon leader, and maybe the inscrutable russian tyrant. But the rest of us? Is this sovereignty warfare really the stuff they told us about on the Eve box way back when? Is it really the dark and dangerous far future universe of guts and glory and sudden appalling death?

***

Basically, unwind this ****. Let stations get blown up. Lose the concept of invulnerability - it has no place in the context of player owned stuff in a mmorg like Eve. If you put ANYTHING in 0.0 then somebody else should be able to blow it the **** up. Send bloody POS back to being simple moon mining and ship fitting/repair platforms and ore storage depots. Let the wars end with the utter crushing fiscal collapse of one side - let the winners write the history and the losers go visit the sad wreckage of their capital stations with a tear in their eye and great memories of the conflict gone.

**** Sovereignty.
Save Eve.

And make this game hardcore again.

***

As a postscript to this and to partially illustrate the origin of the rant above:

Last night some lovely new friendly alliance offered Star Fraction a station. Yep, thats right - the nice chap said "do you fancy coming and helping us nick a station from our enemies and then just look after and run it?" We talked a bit about it - the station in question was one we'd fought the current owners of and it was ripe for the picking. A dread group - blow up some POS, put up some of our own, take the station - mine some ice, do some admin - camp local -name the thing and sit back and watch the isk rolling in? Sounds good right?

I politely declined saying that SF was a roving pvp force and we really didn't do "the POS thing" - and he smiled sadly and said "yeah I wish we didn't" and that was all that needed to be said.

But this is why the damn things are so EVIL. Its like some dreadful endless game of capture the flag in unreal tournament that NEVER ENDS. You might get the flag - you might hold it for a bit but once you big up that suckers you are stuck with it - and you have the FEED THAT ****ING FLAG and it eats you out of house and home. You feed it with your life and soul and your enjoyment and your freedom. Stupid bloody messages coming to your evemail when somebody shoots at it ... more messages when the ICE runs low - its less a space station than some terribly demanding japanese handheld whining baby monster simulation.

You can have nightmares about this stuff!

I mean don't get me wrong - I'd love to take that damn station from the badguys we've been shooting for the last week. I'd certainly be happy to commit a dozen cap ships and battleship group to take down their POS and land our virtual space marines on the station. But once we got there I'd be looking for the one button on the admin console I really wanted to find but know in my sinking heart we won't.

ENGAGE STATION SELF DESTRUCT - T-60mins. Minimum Safe Distance 250,000 kilometres. Do you really want to do this?

**** YES.

So we turned it down. I was a lovely thought and we'll certainly help the guys involved to shoot their enemies in space where they have the same -10s we do. But we won't be getting involved with any POS thank you very much.

***

But the point being Dark Shikari. Non-territorial pvp is where its at really. It is currently like tilting at windmills and we do find ourselves fighting the zombie drone warriors mindlessly following their alliance dictates as well as the misplaced zeal of ccp supporting this rubbish - but at the end of the day, we do get a lot of good fights. We shoot bad guys, we blow up their ships, we take the loot, we send them neat little ideological evemails explaining the errors of their imperialist ways and we use the loot to buy ourselves flashy bits for our ships while kicking back on ventrillo and laughing about things.

And thats Eve.
This bull**** that BoB and Goons are playing I'm not so sure.


It's finshed.

Posted by Jade Constantine

Frygok
Minmatar
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:24:00 - [5]
 

It is a very recommended read, actually.

Alot things is being taken into this topic, and why EVE in some areas are very wrong to some people.

I encourage people to read it, and then get a debate started, whether they agree or not.

Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:34:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Scorpyn on 19/07/2007 12:51:45
Originally by: Jon Asus
Posted by Jade Constantine

That explains the size Razz

Edit : Good stuff actually, I pretty much agree with most of it. The only problem is that I don't know how to do the changes in a proper way.

(It's about sovereignity ping pong, the problem with the indestructability of outposts, the fact that sitting at the same place shooting the same thing for hours is not fun and similar stuff.)

Kharadran Sullath
Caldari
Subordination
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:40:00 - [7]
 

I'd rather not, it'll probably just make me depressed Sad

Jennai
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:48:00 - [8]
 

that is way too many words

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:58:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Banana Torres on 19/07/2007 12:58:41
Banana sees that there has been a repost of an important message. Repost, important! Her hand trembled as she opened the important, reposted message.

Her pulse quickened as the size of the important, reposted message became clear. As she took in the content of the message a thought entered her head:

Oh geez, another alliance whine thread.

She closed the message and went back to choosing a new pair of Jimmy Choos, now that is important.

Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:07:00 - [10]
 

Feck SOV, Save EVE.

Maltitol
Gallente
Tides of Silence
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:16:00 - [11]
 

Amazing post, 100% agree!

Odinegras
Gallente
0utbreak
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:19:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Odinegras on 19/07/2007 13:20:26
Great read, well put and takes alot of factors into account.

I know there are players out there that like to do the "pos/outpost manager" thing but there just isnt enough, we have 1 in our corp. The rest of us h8 doing it. Hours and hours of time i could be spending pvping (enjoying eve)

The reason i stopped playing wow is because i got board of the endless fishing and mining and herb gathering and other stupid crap to get stuff for doing the end game only to not have enough people with the player skill to complete the instance..

When i started eve i vowed i would never mine a roid in my whole eve career and i havent.. But pos management is just roid munching in a different guise, its still a time sink as is sieging a pos.

Scorched earth policy is a very good idea, self destruct outposts etc etc

Lag is crazy and I know the CCP guys are looking at it, but it just keeps getting worse when is it going to get better???


IBTL

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2007.07.19 13:36:00 - [13]
 

We were discussing this yesterday, actually. It's a great summary of how things look from that particular viewpoint/playstyle. Smile

Leon Czolgosz
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:36:00 - [14]
 

Scrapping sovereignty would be akin to CCP patching titans out of the game and returning them as minerals to the owners. Not necessary.

But like titans before Rev II, the current system needs to be fixed, and I hope someone with decision-making power will see this and consider it.

At the very least, making planets rather than moons the basis of sovereignty and allowing outpost destruction would do a lot to return the 0.0 game to gang and fleet combat, rather than the endless POS-spamming and waiting that it is right now.

Prisoner 9818783
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:37:00 - [15]
 

So, if I am reading this post correctly, CCP wasted all the time and effort that they put into Rev3. You don't want to form stable, defendable empires in nullspace. Where it does take time and effort to conquer.

Instead you want a place where you can pew-pew and then, I suppose, return to empire to resupply cause all the facilities in nullspace have been destroyed.

I hope CCP ignore this whine, cause, imo, they are right to make alliance space more defendable and much harder to take over. But, in return, it should take a lot of logistics to keep an area "yours".

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Prisoner 9818783
So, if I am reading this post correctly, CCP wasted all the time and effort that they put into Rev3. You don't want to form stable, defendable empires in nullspace. Where it does take time and effort to conquer.

Instead you want a place where you can pew-pew and then, I suppose, return to empire to resupply cause all the facilities in nullspace have been destroyed.

I hope CCP ignore this whine, cause, imo, they are right to make alliance space more defendable and much harder to take over. But, in return, it should take a lot of logistics to keep an area "yours".


All of sovereignty, POSs, outposts, and capital ships comes down to is a massive, massive, massive timesink.

Killing POS? Timesink.

Fueling hundreds of POS? Timesink.

This is why today you can get bogged down for months fighting over a single system, eventually getting to the point where you would rather just stab yourself a few hundred times.

Leon Czolgosz
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:40:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Prisoner 9818783

Instead you want a place where you can pew-pew and then, I suppose, return to empire to resupply cause all the facilities in nullspace have been destroyed.



Does anyone actually enjoy putting up fifty towers in Omist? They can keep sovereignty but change the mechanics to make it fun, or at least less tedious.

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
We were discussing this yesterday, actually. It's a great summary of how things look from that particular viewpoint/playstyle. Smile


Lemme get this right ... CCP calls this wall of text in four(!) subsequent posts a "summary" but caps my bio after 1000 chars?

ugh

Entreri Finwe
Can't Decide
Balance of Judgment
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:45:00 - [19]
 

I don't have time to read all that, I read about half the first and scimmed trough the second half of the first before reaching information overload (the small text in the quotes doesn't help either)... I'll probably read the rest later and my point here may be wrong but anyway:

To me it sounds as you want to get rid of the time sink of having to take over someones systems/area/region and to do this you say that the defenders should have to be online 23/7 to camp it?

And:
Quote:
Empire war decs vs alliances? Oh my god increase the price because we don't want ASCN getting ganked! (thanks mate)


Either that's an old post or someone has NO clue...

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:48:00 - [20]
 

its allot but i kept reading.. say`s enough i think..

its the view of a veteran player.. mabe this will open some eye`s

Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
Blade.
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:49:00 - [21]
 

You know, originally, titans were supose to be stations with jump drives and warp drives. Destructoble stations.

In any case. I agree with the whole post. Anything that boosts "Hardcore" in EVE is good. Let WoW and the like rot with their carebearism.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:50:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Entreri Finwe

And:
Quote:
Empire war decs vs alliances? Oh my god increase the price because we don't want ASCN getting ganked! (thanks mate)


Either that's an old post or someone has NO clue...


Or you're just too young to recognize the reference ^^.

Free Jade!

Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
Blade.
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:50:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Entreri Finwe
I don't have time to read all that, I read about half the first and scimmed trough the second half of the first before reaching information overload (the small text in the quotes doesn't help either)... I'll probably read the rest later and my point here may be wrong but anyway:

To me it sounds as you want to get rid of the time sink of having to take over someones systems/area/region and to do this you say that the defenders should have to be online 23/7 to camp it?

And:
Quote:
Empire war decs vs alliances? Oh my god increase the price because we don't want ASCN getting ganked! (thanks mate)


Either that's an old post or someone has NO clue...


I think he wants Starbases and Outposts to be destructable. Starbases are, but they are too tough.

Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:51:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Prisoner 9818783

Insert Here Some Random Blather



Stop trolling. Rebate the arguments in the original post using your brains, instead of lighting up the flares to get the choppers, A-10s, AC-130s and other stuff to kill those arguments.

Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:53:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn

Lemme get this right ... CCP calls this wall of text in four(!) subsequent posts a "summary" but caps my bio after 1000 chars?
ugh


I fail to see what was the point for to post this here, other than to bump this thread. If the latter was your intention, thank you very much :)

Sharupak
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.07.19 13:53:00 - [26]
 

Cliff Notes: " Because POS's cant be destroyed=SUXORS!"

I agree though, they should be able to be destroyed by massive fleets bombarding them....Whatever is inside no matter who it belongs to, should be loot! All that science and industry...Gone!

However, you should also be given an option to capture them as well! They are huge strategic prizes, giving your fleet a place to repair rearm and retool!

Frygok
Minmatar
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.07.19 14:06:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Frygok on 19/07/2007 14:07:47
When I read the post by Jade, it wasn't so much the solutions of hers I found interesting. Merely her views on what's wrong with alliance warfare today. POS spamming and indestructable Outposts.

I personally don't agree with everything she writes, but still this is a great post to start a debate:

What can be done instead of POS-spamming to gain sov? How can smaller groups of BS(as example) do some damage to 0.0 holding alliances? Should people have afk defense of stations? Do people deserve their 0.0 space if they can't defend it when there is attack?

EDIT: Also, great to see CCP reading this thread. Out of curiosity, what were peoples views on the subject? As you stated, it's the view from certain groups of people. But are these people anyone you are trying to make the EVE experience more fun? At the moment it seems like to be alot of POS spammage, huge blobs and players being a number, rather than a player, when it comes to battles.

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2007.07.19 14:08:00 - [28]
 

Wow...

Jadepost. Long time no see.

Windle Poons
Amarr
Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Posted - 2007.07.19 14:12:00 - [29]
 

As painful as this is to type Razz

I agree with Jade.

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2007.07.19 14:12:00 - [30]
 

Got to be the most well written post ive seen, and all of the points was valid

I agree 100% with everything he said.


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