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Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.19 00:43:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Wendat Huron
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
If you're not sucking up to one faction or another, you're left out in the cold. Nothing new to see here.


RP your way out of it, assume a Federation based political platform and refute any claims that you're championing the current political system. It's time to break out Jade and the paragraphs of doom and roleplay your asses off to spin this.


Which is what we do by not championing any of the factions.

Cividari
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2007.07.19 01:10:00 - [32]
 

Ive got a couple of simple yes/no questions.

Is faction ammo allowed?

If TeamA starts with 99 points used and TeamB starts with 100 points used, does that mean TeamB has allready "killed" ships worth 1 point?

Lets say TeamA kills half of TeamB for 50 points but TeamB kills all of TeamA for a full 150 points. Even though TeamB wins does TeamA still get 50 points?

Wigglytuff
Perkone
Posted - 2007.07.19 02:03:00 - [33]
 

It makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever to allow implants, and not allow podding, or rigs.

This is not a PvP championship imo. PvPers would fight for the glory and bragging rights, not for an empire mission-runner's wet dream.


People want prizes that mean something, the trophy and medals are cool, but the LP and standings are stupid. honestly, why would a pirate faction give a damn about some random capsuleer group 'championing' them? Besides, if said 'champions' lost, they'd make the faction look bad, and thus, would get a standings hit.

The prize should be something impressive but meaningful to pvpers. Sure LP to cash in for billions worth of implants/whatever is nice, but why not just give them ISK then?

No, give the winners a Station, in Empire (high or low sec, doesn't matter to me).

And when the next tourney comes around, the new winners get said station.

Eytre
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Posted - 2007.07.19 06:52:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: GM Nova


The following Factions can be represented:
Amarr
Caldari
Gallente
Minmatar
Angel Cartel
Blood Raiders
Guristas
Sansha
Serpentis





Damn, no interbus, there goes our prize...Laughing

Linavin
Mercurialis Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.07.19 08:09:00 - [35]
 

I still haven't the slighest idea why rigs are disallowed. All the teams have acess to them, and they're very cheap considering whats being fielded in the tournement. To be honest if a team wants to go and blow several billion isk on tech II rigs for marginal benifit thats fine by me. Tech II rigs don't have nearly the effect that pirate implants do. Rigs are now part of eve pvp as anything, they're wonderful for making out of the box setups workable and would add more flavor to the tourney.

Shin Ra
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.07.19 08:27:00 - [36]
 

Question:

Suppose a team represent Caldari, and one member has 0.0 standings with caldari navy. If the said team wins, what does that make his standings? Does it take connections skill into account? Are these standings with every Caldari corp, or just with the Caldari State itself. What good are caldari State standings?

R3dSh1ft
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.19 11:26:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 19/07/2007 11:36:55
Good luck getting people to stay up until 4am local time to participate in the tourney now. Don't you remember the debarcle with teams just not turning up at the last one? This is going to be doubly so now, after all, if the only benefit one would get is going from -10 with a pirate faction to -7, wtf is the point anyway?

ok enough whinging Wink

How about..

5 Million skillpoints, 5Bn ISK to each team member on the first place team.

3 Million skillpoints, 3Bn ISK to each member of the second place team.

1 Million skillpoints, 1Bn ISK to each member of the third place team.

Skillpoints would be given to the skills of the pilot's choosing (of course confined to in-game mechanics - no dread 5 without bs 5 for example).

The skillpoints are a prize that can't be gained any other way (and it can even be roleplayed as some kind of memetic transfer or whatever).

The ISK is there to appeal to those who like it, and who aren't the richest bears in the forest - but not an unbelievable (or game changing) amount.

And of course the medal/cup are there for the glory hungry.

Cividari
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2007.07.19 14:37:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Shin Ra
Question:

Suppose a team represent Caldari, and one member has 0.0 standings with caldari navy. If the said team wins, what does that make his standings? Does it take connections skill into account? Are these standings with every Caldari corp, or just with the Caldari State itself. What good are caldari State standings?


It would work same way as any other standings does. To make it possible to calc we need to change the value of max and lowest standing. Max (+10) is 0 and lowest possible (-10) is 20. Lets say your standings with caldari are -10 (easy to calc) and you win the tourny, then your standings increase with 30% out of 20. So you go from -10 to -4. Or lets say your standings are 0.0, you change it the same way as above. 0.0 is 10, 30% out of 10 is 3 so your standings are now 0+3=3. Hope this makes atleast some sense, I havent got much sleep today.

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:06:00 - [39]
 

Actually, like GM Nova stated, it's the same as with regular standings increases. 1% equals 0.1 standing points. so 30% would be 3 points of standing.

Example:
You have a standing of 4.15 to the Caldari State faction, and as their champion, you win the tournament. You would end up with 7.15 faction standings.

Easy enough, huh?

Cividari
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:11:00 - [40]
 

I havent done missions in awhile so I might very well be wrong, but when you rat (gain sec status with concord in %) or when you do missions your standings increase much faster when your Standings are low which supports what I wrote (if anyone was able to understand it Embarassed)

Shadow Serpent
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:35:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Good job locking the other thread without responding to any of the constructive criticism.

Horrible job on everything else. Rolling Eyes


QFT.

I think everyone should just boycot the tournament. The prizes are a joke and as Wildcat stated, the prizes are geared toward rewarding mission runners and not PvPers. Seriously, who put GM Nova in charge? This tournament is a complete joke. No one had any complaints with the prizes that were awarded last year, why not just issue the same prizes? Ever heard the term "...Don't fix it if it ain't broken..."?

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:36:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Cividari
I havent done missions in awhile so I might very well be wrong, but when you rat (gain sec status with concord in %) or when you do missions your standings increase much faster when your Standings are low which supports what I wrote (if anyone was able to understand it Embarassed)

What you wrote is correct.

--P

ookke
GreenSwarm
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:43:00 - [43]
 

just a quick question... will NONE of the qualifier matches be shown on EVE TV like you said earlier?

Cividari
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:46:00 - [44]
 

All matches will be shown on eveTV. They will only allow 32 teams to sign up so they can show all fights.

Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2007.07.19 22:10:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: R3dSh1ft
Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 19/07/2007 11:36:55
Good luck getting people to stay up until 4am local time to participate in the tourney now. Don't you remember the debarcle with teams just not turning up at the last one? This is going to be doubly so now, after all, if the only benefit one would get is going from -10 with a pirate faction to -7, wtf is the point anyway?

ok enough whinging Wink

How about..

5 Million skillpoints, 5Bn ISK to each team member on the first place team.

3 Million skillpoints, 3Bn ISK to each member of the second place team.

1 Million skillpoints, 1Bn ISK to each member of the third place team.

Skillpoints would be given to the skills of the pilot's choosing (of course confined to in-game mechanics - no dread 5 without bs 5 for example).

The skillpoints are a prize that can't be gained any other way (and it can even be roleplayed as some kind of memetic transfer or whatever).

The ISK is there to appeal to those who like it, and who aren't the richest bears in the forest - but not an unbelievable (or game changing) amount.

And of course the medal/cup are there for the glory hungry.



Giving skill points is a horrible idea.

Besides, not all skillpoints are equal.

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.07.19 22:44:00 - [46]
 

In the spirit of a level playing field, I really can't help but wonder why the relatively cheap rigs which would be at risk are disallowed, and horribly expensive implants which have the same effect as what was stated as reason for disallowing rigs - prolonged tanking = boring matches - are allowed, and not even put at risk.

That is kind of puzzling.

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 03:34:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
In the spirit of a level playing field, I really can't help but wonder why the relatively cheap rigs which would be at risk are disallowed, and horribly expensive implants which have the same effect as what was stated as reason for disallowing rigs - prolonged tanking = boring matches - are allowed, and not even put at risk.

That is kind of puzzling.

While I don't agree with the decision, the logic is fairly plain.

A set of implants is a one-time investment in a pilot that, win or lose, that pilot gets to keep.

A rig for a ship is a one-time investment that lasts as long as the ship lasts, and doesn't scale with your ship--that is, you'll spend just as much rigging ten Silver Magnates as ten Punishers.

Drawing a line between the two, while incorrect in my opinion, is not entirely unreasonable. At the end of the day, the cost of a set of implants is zero--you can't lose them during the tournament, and you have them when the tournament is over. Rigs, OTOH, are a large cost that simply explodes.

--P

Eytre
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Posted - 2007.07.20 07:38:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
In the spirit of a level playing field, I really can't help but wonder why the relatively cheap rigs which would be at risk are disallowed, and horribly expensive implants which have the same effect as what was stated as reason for disallowing rigs - prolonged tanking = boring matches - are allowed, and not even put at risk.

That is kind of puzzling.

While I don't agree with the decision, the logic is fairly plain.

A set of implants is a one-time investment in a pilot that, win or lose, that pilot gets to keep.

A rig for a ship is a one-time investment that lasts as long as the ship lasts, and doesn't scale with your ship--that is, you'll spend just as much rigging ten Silver Magnates as ten Punishers.

Drawing a line between the two, while incorrect in my opinion, is not entirely unreasonable. At the end of the day, the cost of a set of implants is zero--you can't lose them during the tournament, and you have them when the tournament is over. Rigs, OTOH, are a large cost that simply explodes.

--P



I was under the impression that rigs were banned because they promote turtle tanks (think myr with 3 armor rigs) and while some pirate implants do the same (Crystal, and to a lesser degree Slave) I bet the organizers were praying for talisman implants to be used alot as to totally destroy people's tanks.

However I forsee either Snaked out teams with low dps or Crystaled our CNRs tanking as long to kill, if not longer to kill than a simple rigged myr.

I say either allow both, or ban both, but who am I to judge. /shrug

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.20 11:35:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Actually, like GM Nova stated, it's the same as with regular standings increases. 1% equals 0.1 standing points. so 30% would be 3 points of standing.

Example:
You have a standing of 4.15 to the Caldari State faction, and as their champion, you win the tournament. You would end up with 7.15 faction standings.

Easy enough, huh?


Too easy. It is a bit more complicated.

The general principle is that it takes as much effort to raise your standing from 0 to 5 as it does raising from 5 to 7.5.
If you picture your standing as a certain amount of "standing points" you would have 5.0 standing with 20 standing points, 7.5 with 40, 8.75 with 60,....

(the numbers are not accurate, they are just an example how the game mechanic works)

The connections (and diplomancy and the relatively useless cirminal connections) modify that "standing point" number, they do not give you a 4% bonus to your standing, but increase your standing points. So with lvl 5 (= 20% bonus) you'll start instead with 0 points with 20 (if 100 points = max standing). If you have 40 points without the skill you'll have 60 with the skill.


A 30% bonus is quite strong actually if you have negative standing. I think it should be enough to make you able to run missions for a faction you have -10.0 with before skills.
The tournament bonus should push you if you train diplomacy 4 or 5 below -2.0 effective standings.
If you have high standings it's not that much though. It would get you from 4.15 to something around 5.5 or 6.0. Or from 9.0 to something in the area of 9.2.

So the boost for an empire faction is rather pointless IMO. However, for an alliance which lives in curse, delve, fountain, stain or venal that boost could be very useful indeed if they pick the faction they champion for wisely.

It also can boost your LP reward considerably. Pirate faction implants have currently LP-isk exchange ratios between 2-4 millions per 1000 LPs. 20 mil LP can be worth 40-80 bil in faction implants.

R3dSh1ft
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:39:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis

Giving skill points is a horrible idea.

Besides, not all skillpoints are equal.


Whats horrible about it, you just don't like the idea or you think something better is needed as a prize?

When you say not all skillpoints are equal, I assume you mean a character with 6 charisma could put 5m skillpoints in a set of leadership skills rather than spacecommand with a perception level of 26? Well like I said the pilots get to choose, so its up to them how to spend it.

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 19:05:00 - [51]
 

TBH, I really like the idea of skillpoints as prizes. Dunno if they'd fly as the only prize, but definitely a good one.

--P

Mjojjnir
Caldari
Fantastic Sandwiches Of The Apocalypse
Posted - 2007.07.20 19:29:00 - [52]
 

We'll be there hopefully as long as we are able to sign-up.

Hohne
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2007.07.20 19:32:00 - [53]
 

Amazing though, I wonder if any of the alliances that don't like the prizes ever go PvPing for fun and glory rather than the loot.....

The fact that it's a gamble with no big payoff may help prevent alliances effectively 'buying' victory. Instead we may see some interesting strategies to get bang for buck wins. Mind you the no podding kind of ruins that to an extent. We get more players in each team, and so more variety, but then if each player gets an advantage with a pirate implant set, you will only have so many players with that ability.

Maybe the next tournament the rules can be more desirable. I really would have like some sort of offical response on why no rigs. I thought the no boosters was to prevent there from being a huge element of luck in it. But now I see that it's to prevent the guy with the expensive implants from losing to someone with the same effect from a booster. (and who'd risk their guys with the expensive implants coming down with a bad case of booster side effects).

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 20:43:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Hohne
I thought the no boosters was to prevent there from being a huge element of luck in it. But now I see that it's to prevent the guy with the expensive implants from losing to someone with the same effect from a booster. (and who'd risk their guys with the expensive implants coming down with a bad case of booster side effects).

No.

Originally by: Hohne
Instead we may see some interesting strategies to get bang for buck wins. Mind you the no podding kind of ruins that to an extent. We get more players in each team, and so more variety, but then if each player gets an advantage with a pirate implant set, you will only have so many players with that ability.

That's an interesting take on implants. I hadn't thought about it that way before. Not sure I agree, mind you, but certainly a fresh way to view the issue.

Originally by: Hohne
Amazing though, I wonder if any of the alliances that don't like the prizes ever go PvPing for fun and glory rather than the loot.....

The fact that it's a gamble with no big payoff may help prevent alliances effectively 'buying' victory.

Not really. The top contenders will spend, quite frankly, any amount to win. Prizes that aren't an insult to our level of investment are considered a bonus, not a requirement. The issue is this:

Point #1: "Last tournament, we gave too much isk away in the form of unique ships."
Point #2: "This tournament, we won't give away those same sorts of ships."

Point #2 exacerbates the issue identified in point #1.

Let me put it another way.

The prizes for this tournament, as they currently stand, increase BoB's net worth by a minimum of 100 billion isk, even if BoB does not participate in the tournament.



That's pretty ****ed-up for a tournament director who claims that the prizes from last tournament were already worth too much.

And THAT's why I'm angry about the prizes. Either the prizes from the last tournament were too low, or you're going about this all wrong.

--P

Quintus Sertorius
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.20 22:16:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Quintus Sertorius on 20/07/2007 22:16:29
This also brings into play a real *fun* strategy.

Say alliance A is paired against alliance B. Lets say A can't make the finals anymore. So now A can turtle run etc. They don't win, but all B gets is like 7-8 points, which should knock B out of making the finals as well. Halfway tempted to run an alt alliance team or something and rent results.

P.S. The *fun* was sarcastic.

illusionary beauty
I-Tyranny
Posted - 2007.07.21 03:05:00 - [56]
 

Anyone say when the tournament is for sure and what times the tournament will take place. i want to know whether or not i need to take off work or switch times or what not.

I know eve tv said this, but it doesnt mention relative times.
"Aug 31st to September 2nd, then September 7th to 9th. Yes, there will be a free stream to view."

Ghost Reaper
Evolution
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.07.21 15:48:00 - [57]
 

well to start with you should remove jamming, cause it will just turn into a ew logistic fight, which is boring, and not very tactical i.e (dump as much ew on them while we rep eachother)

You also need to completly reconcider your prizes. If you want this to be more of a allaince effect rather then the rich people in the allaince, you need to offer more combat boosts. You have to remember one thing, most of the teams that get top (or even enter) are pvp orrientated, not ur mission wh*re. Giving them 20mil LP is a mission wh*res wet dream, but for pvpers its like WTF (same with ur POS idea)

You gace motherships in the last one, this is a much bigger tourney, 10pilots, anyone in allaince can participate, offer a titan with pimped fittings (even though there crap now)

Keep the idea about giving % boost to standings, it gives the whole allaince a reason to help. If you wont offer a titan, then give sumthing instead of LP points. Something that effects the whole allaince, and not a carebear thing, something that the whole allaince can use for PVP (maybe some kind of bonus or something)

Stoping thinking of this tourney for the people who ***** missions in empore, becuase they wont be the ones winning or even getting close, its the pvp entitys.

Gr

Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.21 17:28:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Ifni on 21/07/2007 17:28:17
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Hohne
Amazing though, I wonder if any of the alliances that don't like the prizes ever go PvPing for fun and glory rather than the loot.....

The fact that it's a gamble with no big payoff may help prevent alliances effectively 'buying' victory.

Not really. The top contenders will spend, quite frankly, any amount to win. Prizes that aren't an insult to our level of investment are considered a bonus, not a requirement. The issue is this:

Point #1: "Last tournament, we gave too much isk away in the form of unique ships."
Point #2: "This tournament, we won't give away those same sorts of ships."

Point #2 exacerbates the issue identified in point #1.

Let me put it another way.

The prizes for this tournament, as they currently stand, increase BoB's net worth by a minimum of 100 billion isk, even if BoB does not participate in the tournament.



That's pretty ****ed-up for a tournament director who claims that the prizes from last tournament were already worth too much.

And THAT's why I'm angry about the prizes. Either the prizes from the last tournament were too low, or you're going about this all wrong.

Did you pull that value from thin air? Or have you done a poll on each and every potential buyer for the Corvus/Storm?

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.21 20:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Ifni
Edited by: Ifni on 21/07/2007 17:28:17
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Hohne
Amazing though, I wonder if any of the alliances that don't like the prizes ever go PvPing for fun and glory rather than the loot.....

The fact that it's a gamble with no big payoff may help prevent alliances effectively 'buying' victory.

Not really. The top contenders will spend, quite frankly, any amount to win. Prizes that aren't an insult to our level of investment are considered a bonus, not a requirement. The issue is this:

Point #1: "Last tournament, we gave too much isk away in the form of unique ships."
Point #2: "This tournament, we won't give away those same sorts of ships."

Point #2 exacerbates the issue identified in point #1.

Let me put it another way.

The prizes for this tournament, as they currently stand, increase BoB's net worth by a minimum of 100 billion isk, even if BoB does not participate in the tournament.



That's pretty ****ed-up for a tournament director who claims that the prizes from last tournament were already worth too much.

And THAT's why I'm angry about the prizes. Either the prizes from the last tournament were too low, or you're going about this all wrong.

Did you pull that value from thin air? Or have you done a poll on each and every potential buyer for the Corvus/Storm?

Number of Corvuses in game = 4.
Number of Storms in game = 4.

3 of each left on the market, since Entity snagged both a Corvus and a Storm and there's pretty much zero chance he'll ever sell them. Rumors of their sale price puts them at about 75b apiece, and that was before we knew they wouldn't be re-issued for this tournament. As such, BoB, with 5 ships remaining, currently holds 375b in ships and 150b in isk as a result of the last tournament, based on old numbers. You don't think the fact that these ships won't be given out again would effect at least a 25% increase in their per-unit value?

Still, you're missing the point. Let's say that it makes the old ships worth 5,000 isk more, apiece. Isn't that still the exact opposite of what they'd want to do?

--P

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2007.07.22 01:12:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Pilk
Number of Corvuses in game = 4.
Number of Storms in game = 4.

3 of each left on the market, since Entity snagged both a Corvus and a Storm and there's pretty much zero chance he'll ever sell them. Rumors of their sale price puts them at about 75b apiece, and that was before we knew they wouldn't be re-issued for this tournament. As such, BoB, with 5 ships remaining, currently holds 375b in ships and 150b in isk as a result of the last tournament, based on old numbers. You don't think the fact that these ships won't be given out again would effect at least a 25% increase in their per-unit value?

Still, you're missing the point. Let's say that it makes the old ships worth 5,000 isk more, apiece. Isn't that still the exact opposite of what they'd want to do?

--P



While I do agree with you on principle, short of taking them away from BoB there isn't much that CCP can do that is "right."

Right now, BoB theoretically has six 75B ships in their hangars (not counting the titans, natch!). Who will pay that much for a ship that will, for all intents and purposes, collect dust in a hangar? Not many. Entity is sort of an oddball in that regards, though I think its cool what he's doing. So the likelihood of them ever liquidating those ships is very miniscule...the only real possibility of them doing so is to hold a lottery with a 2-3 billion isk ticket price for each ship--and even that isn't terribly likely to fully succeed.

That being said, if more ships were handed out for this tournament and future ones, then the ships become less "unique" or "irreplaceable" and while the value goes down some, the likelihood of being able to move them on the market goes up--so in effect BoB wins that way too, since they now have liquid isk (or T2 BPOs, or whatever more fluid commodity is used) instead of the value locked up in that ship.

Most likely, the ships will NOT see the market, but be used in tournament play (Impoc-style) when a prize warrants their use. At this point, it would be a big surprise if they whip out their epeens for this low-prize tournament. Bhaalgorns (that they've farmed for basically free from their plexes), sure. State/Tribal issues? Not so much.



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