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Steel Tigeress
Gallente
R0GUE ENTITY
Posted - 2007.07.27 13:29:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Steel Tigeress

Originally by: SiJira


you do realize a cloaker has to uncloak to attack right?
you do relize that a cloak is the only "pause" button in eve right?
And it doesnt need to be deactivated to have a negative impact on a system right?
or that its the only module without a counter right?
Or that while activated, a pearson is safe indefinatly in the "Harsh, dark, hostile" environment right?

You fail to realize that we have been asking for the same dangers to apply to cloakers, that you are asking for ratters. Yet your for 1, and against the other because one helps you, and the other hurts you.

You cant have your cake and eat it too.


-fixed quote for you-

And no it isnt a pause button because you can get uncloaked - no you do not affect the system because there should always be a defensive person with every defenseless ship - yes it has many counters - ie you kill the ship when he tries to gank you - that is what you are scared of right?

funny you say that cliche about cake when you go to 0.0 expecting to reap full high rewards with no work-risk involved you are the one asking to have your cake - the rewards - and eat it too - no risk or work

now proceed to totally twist my post up and try to use a strawman like goum does in every post or ignore my post altogether because you just defeated your own unrealistic demand for breaking something that is balanced


Ya I botched the quote =P

But the content remains true.

Show me what risk somone cloaked for 23 hours in a enemy system is facing, and then you may have a valid point. Their reward is less economic growth for all the other inhabitants of that system. No risk, but they get reward. Thats broken by your own logic.

Aleksandr Cirtus
Caldari
Dark Neutron Star
Drama Flakes
Posted - 2007.07.27 13:34:00 - [212]
 

Guess who didn't read 8 pages of bull****?

ME!!!!

Human nature never ceases to amaze... no, disappoint me.

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:20:00 - [213]
 

Its the same thing as Warp to 0. Making Book-Marks was not supposed to be abused to allow for Warp to 0, but it was, and since everyone whined and whined about not being able to move quickly around eve, to run away or run large gate camps, they make Warp to 0.

Likewise, local is not supposed to be used as an intelligence gathering tool but rather a tool for player interaction - but - it is a valuable intelligence gathering tool and people are dependent on it. I say, remove local untill you speak in it. 0.0 border control is all fine and dandy and the reasons for having it are understandable, but in reality, its just mis-using an in-game mechanic.

I use it, I depend on it, but I would like to see it go - it makes things a LOT more interesting. . .

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:25:00 - [214]
 

okay, so let's say I jump into a friendly gate camp, but want to move my neutral alt through as well? The local channel makes it very easy for me to do that.

just a hypothesis, but... there are so many uses for the local channel, and for having an instant update, I really think that removing or nerfing it would be a Bad Idea.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:30:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
okay, so let's say I jump into a friendly gate camp, but want to move my neutral alt through as well? The local channel makes it very easy for me to do that.

just a hypothesis, but... there are so many uses for the local channel, and for having an instant update, I really think that removing or nerfing it would be a Bad Idea.


You can solve that by simply speaking at teh local. You don need the auto update for that.


Local should not show who is on system, plain simple. Just number of people and show the people anmes when they speak up.

Aravisi
Russian SOBR
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:31:00 - [216]
 

Don't remove it. Point.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:34:00 - [217]
 

okay, let me re-phrase this:


who would nerfing local actually help?

gate camps wouldn't know when somebody came in, and lone flyers wouldn't know if they were about to blunder into a gatecamp

Alliances would easily be able to move entire fleets around without anybody being able to know where they were until it was too late to respond.

even the people looking to cloak somewhere and score a few stealthy kills wouldn't have the faintest idea whether or not there was even a potential target in their system until they were on the same grid - by which point, half the time, it's too late to do anything.

So, in short, nerfing or ending local for 0.0 causes more problems than it could possibly solve.

Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:44:00 - [218]
 

If CCP didn't intend local as a tool to provide strategic intelligence, why did they make standings visible there?

Indigo Johnson
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:51:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
If CCP didn't intend local as a tool to provide strategic intelligence, why did they make standings visible there?

For when local is "possibly" replaced by constellation chat and/or to lessen the load on the server in the short term because of the data requests to the server. ie. you have to right click info everything in local to find out if they were a friend or a foe.

Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:55:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Indigo Johnson
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
If CCP didn't intend local as a tool to provide strategic intelligence, why did they make standings visible there?

For when local is "possibly" replaced by constellation chat and/or to lessen the load on the server in the short term because of the data requests to the server. ie. you have to right click info everything in local to find out if they were a friend or a foe.

I agree with your observation about server load issues, but the rest is conjecture, unless you have evidence that this is what they are 'possibly' planning.

I would honestly like to know if so.

BluOrange
Gallente
The OZ Hunters and Mercenary Association
Black Scope Project
Posted - 2007.07.31 04:18:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: BluOrange

False. As a member of an aggressive force operating in 0.0, I have lost count of the number of times our opponents have attempted to create ambushes and set traps for us. If we couldn't tell how many of them there are in local, we'd have to face the possibility that they're just out of detection range, waiting to pounce on us.


And they would have to face the same possibility. Except that since they are the ones who are sitting around, you are the ones who are more able to make use of the directional scanner. This gives you more information and more ability to use that information. This means that not only do they have to face the same possibilities that you do, but that you have more information on what is happening than them.


Not if the removal of local was structured in a way that lent advantage to the defender, which is something that I have consistently supported.

Quote:
Quote:

I don't think you have any real understanding of how and what I think, and I encourage you not to comment on that. Let's comment on the topic at hand and what is said. When I'm in the mood, I may start a thread about zero-sum games.



What you have said has indicated that you do not think that the system is a Zero sum game. Simply because you didnt use the term doesnt mean that you havent supported the position.


Very well then: Eve is not a zero-sum game. It doesn't work the way you think it does. To take an obvious example, if we both go mining, then we are both advantaged by however much we mined.

Quote:
Quote:

As an attacker, I'm fine with the defenders in a system having something just as powerful as local, provided that the intel is provided by something outside of POS shields that can be destroyed within 10 minutes by a small force. As for the defender's allies missing out on the intel: tough. Join their alliance, put up your own sensor net, or ask them to give you updates when things happen.



Your funeral i guess.


Not just mine Twisted Evil

Quote:
Quote:

Agreed. I mention the logoffski because a proper logoffski fix would take a lot of the heat out of calls to remove local. IMO, there is a simple and effective logoffski fix available - leave the ship exactly where it was, and let it die. There are stations and outposts, if you log in space, you should expect to die.


At the end of the day, Eve is a game where the goal is to have fun. Being unable to log off because you ship will be destroyed, or the POS smashed in a day or so is not fun.


So fly a couple of jumps to an outpost or station. Get yourself to a place where it's difficult to be probed down and log there. Or don't undock in what you can't afford to lose. There are plenty of options besides logging off, and it is a mechanic that is constantly abused.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.07.31 04:38:00 - [222]
 

Quote:

Very well then: Eve is not a zero-sum game. It doesn't work the way you think it does. To take an obvious example, if we both go mining, then we are both advantaged by however much we mined.


Eve as a whole is not, but the relationship between recons and production is. Just like life isnt a zero sum game, but war is.

The difference is that there is no incentive or obligation on anyones part to make war fair. But there is incentive and obligation on CCPs part to make the hunter/hunted game fair.

Quote:
Not if the removal of local was structured in a way that lent advantage to the defender, which is something that I have consistently supported.


But that defeats the point. The "problem" with local is that defenders have too much of a notice before attackers come. You cannot structure it both so that defenders have the clear advantage and that the point of removing local was achieved.

This is why delayed update is a much better solution. Because as well, it provides information to attackers as well.

Quote:

So fly a couple of jumps to an outpost or station. Get yourself to a place where it's difficult to be probed down and log there. Or don't undock in what you can't afford to lose. There are plenty of options besides logging off, and it is a mechanic that is constantly abused.


You need to log for 3 days, or a week for vacation, or a month for any number of reasons] Your deep safe will most likly be found. Your POS could very well be knocked down. And your station taken. It is not right that people should be unable to play in spurts because it doesnt suit someone who wants to kill them and take their stuff. Logging off is the supreme right in MMOs, and its only resriction is that it cannot reasonably be used to avoid combat.

The answer to a log-off timer that is too short is to increase the log-off timer to something more reasonable, not to keep ships logged in all the time.

Just as the answer to local giving info too fast is not to kill local, but to delay the speed at which it delivers data a reasonable amount.

Valacirca
Caldari
Radically Awesome
BROTHER'S WORD
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:33:00 - [223]
 

Please remove local from 0.0.

Turin
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.07.31 16:51:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Local is the main cause of BLOBAGE... the fact that you know exactly how many your enemy has estimulate you to brign a few more to be sure to outnumber them. They see that and do same etc..

nerf local and FC will have to take more chances and more fun will happen.

Controlling the borders is easy. Just keep constellation chat, its enough for that.



I disagree, it would just make people travel around in much larger numbers.

Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:42:00 - [225]
 

You can turn local off the day they make it possible to probe out cloaked ships, there sounds like an even trade.

CagedRage
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:45:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Toku Jiang
You can turn local off the day they make it possible to probe out cloaked ships, there sounds like an even trade.

But they might not cloak if they didn't know you were there.

Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.07.31 17:46:00 - [227]
 

please remove local, but keep people in the constellation channels.

largewhereitcounts
Posted - 2007.07.31 22:49:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Royaldo
please remove local, but keep people in the constellation channels.




___ I believe local should also display the ship the person is flying and their resists and highest damage type.




Mirirar
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
Posted - 2007.07.31 23:37:00 - [229]
 

Voting for removal of Local in 0.0.

Sorry - there is absolutely no risk for carebear or ratting operations in 0.0. There is nothing but upside for them. Cloak if local jumps! Jump back to the pos if local jumps!

Collect your billion isk. :(

If they want to make money mining or ratting - they should do what everyone else has to do: Post sentries around your op. Don't mine alone. Have your corp buddies protecting you.

... you know, the way it should be.
Corps that can't handle this shouldn't be in 0.0 anyways.

Ithica Ramlix
Phantom Squad
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.01 00:05:00 - [230]
 

This is actually a post I made in the thread "How long will PvPers keep playing EvE". I personally play eve on hard mode, no alts, no taking ransoms, no buying isk ect. I think that everyone needs to stop worrying about getting ganked and think instead about having fun... which is found in the excitement of unpredictability, so you lost a ship.... so what we all do, local or not, but it got your heart pumping right? The Bottom line is that no matter what happens someone will complain, but removing local is the single easiest fix the worsening problems with boredom that eve is current facing. In short Lokal has to go or eve is going to grow old and die. Take Your Pick.

It is 2 bad that there is already 8 pages of people crying about this with a handful of insightful thoughts mixed in, so I understand most people will not read this. Damn Shame.

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: CagedRage
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:32:51
Originally by: WalronS
i am in the same opinion as you.
the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that:
%5 pvp (player vs player as we all know)
%10 gvg (gang vs gang)
%85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!

Well, I can understand the reasons why one gang would want to out number another gang, that's only natural really... What I don't understand is why things are added to a game that encourage massive scale blobbing (which the system can't handle as it is anyway)
Originally by: Jenna Shame
If I wanted that I'd go back to WoW raiding.

WoW raids were fairly fun actually.Laughing



theoretically there could be reasons to not want to outnumber.

Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.


So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.


I have read other forums about removing local from 0.0, and I have to admit it would make 0.0 10 times more dangerousugh, however it does also have great benefits and the above solution to the blob problem is IMO the BEST example of this. All of a sudden a huge fleet is now vulnerable to hit and fade, raid style tactics that would revitalize the excitement of the otherwise slow and grinding fleet battles.Very Happy This would also give the smaller ships attached to cap fleets something to do while sieging a POS... and increase the need for anti-gorilla hunting parties, with the emphasis on staying fast and mobile. This would also mean that the bigger fleet also has to put more on the line because it has to be better protected... so the advantage swings in favor of the smaller mobile force rather then the huge blob.

Having read this quote I am now 100% in favor of removing local from 0.0. Anyone that wants to talk in local still can.. and it reviles their name but not their avatar's picture, just like a radio transition.

If CCP isn't willing to do this for all of 0.0 then consider instead adding a mobile or anchorable local yammer....YARRRR!!

SiJira
Posted - 2007.08.12 11:04:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Toku Jiang
You can turn local off the day they make it possible to probe out cloaked ships, there sounds like an even trade.
seeing that most of them scare people when they are afk - removing local would remove that fear

Acronikosvz
Posted - 2007.08.12 11:10:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: SiJira
no empire has established lines of communication there so
only make people show up if they talk as a rudimentary communications service instead of - player has join system - notification


Agreed. Did you ever see americans in iraq go, 'O **** look someone has entered local with a bomb strapped to himself running at us' ... It really takes the element of suprise away...

This is how it should work, I think in revel 3 or even before they should release a new ship type, with no modules at all that can track players and ship types in a system, no matter the range, it can always detect, but this ship is very slow and big... not all gangs roaming in pvp will have this, thus having a nice element of suprise in the game instead of all this '**** there is a 4man gang in local run and gate camp' just not fun.

Esk Esme
Caldari
Smack Crack and Pot
Posted - 2007.08.12 11:34:00 - [233]
 

removal of 0.0 local would slow 0.0 life right down

even tho local wasnt ment as sorce of intel to c who's in your system it has been intregated into nerly every aspect of the pvp life

u wana spend hour's running around a system looking for a kill an nobody there and u dont klnow it LMFAO

stupid idea realy is

SiJira
Posted - 2007.08.12 12:17:00 - [234]
 

uh ya that argument is overused and illogical
nos was - integrated into every aspect of pvp life and yet you dont see CCP caring when they announced the change do you?

Radgun
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.12 13:20:00 - [235]
 

doesn't this game make you paranoid enough that you want to remove local haha

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.08.12 14:15:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: SiJira
uh ya that argument is overused and illogical
nos was - integrated into every aspect of pvp life and yet you dont see CCP caring when they announced the change do you?

Removing local is completely dissimilar to most levels of module nerfs.

SiJira
Posted - 2007.08.12 15:02:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: SiJira
uh ya that argument is overused and illogical
nos was - integrated into every aspect of pvp life and yet you dont see CCP caring when they announced the change do you?

Removing local is completely dissimilar to most levels of module nerfs.
only because everyone uses it Rolling Eyes

SiJira
Posted - 2007.08.13 12:17:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Radgun
doesn't this game make you paranoid enough that you want to remove local haha
there should be no paranoia if you are confident in your abilities

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.08.13 12:29:00 - [239]
 

Old topic is oooold.

SiJira
Posted - 2007.08.13 13:31:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Old topic is oooold.

in other news today the sky is blue
please add to the discussion


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