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GM Nova

Posted - 2007.07.10 02:17:00 - [61]
 

Hello everyone, senior GM Nova here.

If you feel that you have received an inappropriate reply from a GM regarding a petition, please file a complaint and I or those of us concerned with quality control will have a look at it.

In regards to ISK selling spam and how to deal with it. ISK selling spam can be likened to a skin rash. Dealing with only the spammers is akin to constantly applying cosmetics on the rash to hide it instead of doing something about the cause of the rash and finding a cure.

So, while we ban the trial accounts (logged on modified clients) used to spam, we prefer to directly attack the root of the problem, which is ISK buying. In most cases we can trace the sellers through the spammers with IP searches and other goody tools we have. When we catch the seller, we ban him/her and reverse all donations made from his character/s. This means that the ISK buyers will have their bought ISK removed, and they will have paid real money for nothing.

As far as we can tell, this is working. A month ago we removed 380 billion ISK from the economy. This is not a typo, 380 BILLION ISK. This we removed from hundreds players which had bought the ISK for real money, and in many cases landed them in a negative balance. We banned well over 100 accounts. (ISK sellers all of them) You will not hear this from the buyers who were cought as they will never admit to buying ISK and thus I am telling you now. Nor will we name and shame anyone.

To achieve final victory over Real Money Trade (ISK buying and the spam that follows) we need YOUR help. We can not do this alone. If you, the players lend us a hand in this by, first of all, not buying ISK and second of all discourage anyone from doing it, we can eventually beat this.

Together we can do this. This community is the most mature one any MMO can boast of, and we at CCP are damn proud of you. I fully believe that in unity we shall liquidate the rash and throw all cosmetics out the window.

WICTORY WILL BE OURS.

All the best,

GM Nova
Senior Game Master


Quithlar Binay
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.07.10 02:56:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Quithlar Binay on 10/07/2007 03:16:55
I support the idea behind the original post, but I propose going further and not quite as far.

Proposal: Remove trial pilots' ability to speak in public channels.

Let them join and see what is going on. Outright exclusion may add to the perception of elitism that is already present.

Proposal: Remove trial pilots' ability to generate Evemail.

I don't like this one, because new pilots sometimes use mail to ask for help. It will at least prevent them (and everyone else) from receiving credit offers through Evemail.

Originally by: fire 59
If people stopped buying isk in the first place, we wouldn't have isk sellers.


Fire 59 sees clearly. It is important to keep in mind the real issue here. It is not trial accounts or trial pilots. It is the tactics of credit sellers (and yes, they exist because pilots purchase credits). Limiting innocent trial pilots should not be the first resort. Unfortunately, we are past the first resort (petitions).

On the subject of channel moderation... it is a little sticky when the proposed moderators are not employees of ISD. Where then is their accountability? The effort to create a decent program for channel moderation would be rather extreme in my view. And as we have seen, it would still not prevent abuse of power. Also, it entails a loss of freedom, a change in the very concept of a public channel. Shall we do away with this part of Eve culture, because of some chat spam? I resist the notion.

*edit* I would be interested in hearing exactly what the GMs wish and do not wish from pilots on this issue, Nova. I see "Do not buy ISK, discourage others from buying ISK." Indeed the root of the issue. On reporting credit sellers, what is most helpful to you? Petition every one we encounter?

GM Guard

Posted - 2007.07.10 09:38:00 - [63]
 

We appreciate getting petitions from you guys about ISK spammers as soon as they start their peddling. They are usually banned within minutes of us receiving and verifying the report (within seconds if we have had much coffee). Of course this often leads to us getting fifty petitions about the same guy, 49 of which add little to the end result, but that is not our biggest problem. The most important thing is that we stop these people as soon as possible and spare you guys as much annoyance as we can until we come up with better solutions to the problem.

The only thing for players to keep in mind when reporting these chatty peddlers is that you use the correct petition category so we see the petition right away, and so our other petition queues don't fill up with petitions about long gone ISK peddlers. The exploit category would be an excellent choice when filing a petition about these guys as it is one of the so called 'express categories' and is closely monitored for quick news of the most urgent and vile of exploits.

The most important thing of all, as GM Nova so wisely pointed out, is to ignore their offers and never buy their ISK. Those who buy ISK are directly paying for the continued presence of these spammers in the game.

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2007.07.10 11:06:00 - [64]
 

I will return to petitioning then. Thanks for the responses.

328 billion isk..... WOW!!!! Nice to hear what is happening on CCP's front regarding this issue.

Adaris
E X I U S
Posted - 2007.07.10 11:59:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Adaris on 10/07/2007 11:59:59
This is completely true (op). Everytime I go to a trade channel I'm met with at least 1 isk seller. The same can be seen recently in the Rookie channel, which really puts out a bad vibe.

I don't agree with having people watch over these channels, making them moderators to their content etc, or even have a gm sitting in there waiting for the isk selling spammer to make his move...

However, I do agree that we should have a proper medium to petition. I regularly petition these isk sellers once I see them. And I get a gm response 4-8 later... you see my point? (They would have gone by then, damage done.)

So can we have gms monitoring petitions about isk selling as an immeadiate priority? If yuo want isk selling to stop, then support those people ingame who are trying to end it, by using the means you enabled us to.

Edit: I posted before I read nova's response... Embarassed

Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
Posted - 2007.07.10 12:17:00 - [66]
 

Nice ti see a report from GM's about it...

it might be time for a blog about it. just to state that you are actually doing things and that there is a chanse of getting busted.

Thanks for the good job in the war against isk buyers!!

Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2007.07.10 12:45:00 - [67]
 

This game has gone to **** *FAST* because if isk buyers, and isk farmers.

I am thrilled that I get an occasional 'keep up the good work' in local when they see I am hunting isk farmers.

But, we get VERY LITTLE HELP.

I see tons of people whining about isk farmers, sellers and we all know that CCP does *nothing* about it.

I estimate there are 10,000 isk farmers in eve on a daily basis at once time.

Would you give up $150,000 a month?
Did not think so....

CCP needs to take our petitions more seriously and wield the ban stick if this is to stop.


Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
Posted - 2007.07.10 13:06:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Loyal Servant
This game has gone to **** *FAST* because if isk buyers, and isk farmers.

I am thrilled that I get an occasional 'keep up the good work' in local when they see I am hunting isk farmers.

But, we get VERY LITTLE HELP.

I see tons of people whining about isk farmers, sellers and we all know that CCP does *nothing* about it.

I estimate there are 10,000 isk farmers in eve on a daily basis at once time.

Would you give up $150,000 a month?
Did not think so....

CCP needs to take our petitions more seriously and wield the ban stick if this is to stop.




the ban stick will do jack **** to stop them! just as it is easier to get rid of bugs by destroying their food suply and their breeding places, we need to kill of the isk-buyers!

if noone buys isk, the isk-sellers will stop.

if people will buy isk and there is noone around to sell it, someone will start to sell it again

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2007.07.11 07:27:00 - [69]
 

It looks like some replied before they saw the developers response.

This issue has caused a lot of grief on boards an in game. I hope that the GM posts are viewed as constructive.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.07.11 07:39:00 - [70]
 

Give trusted traders ability to mute isk selling spammers for 2 hours (enough time to ban the isk seller)

Any trader that abuses this ability to mute legitimate players will get banned for a day. Isk sellers would get muted after their first ad in seconds. Potential for power abuse is minimal

Natsuki
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.07.12 08:25:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: GM Guard
We appreciate getting petitions from you guys about ISK spammers as soon as they start their peddling. They are usually banned within minutes of us receiving and verifying the report (within seconds if we have had much coffee). Of course this often leads to us getting fifty petitions about the same guy, 49 of which add little to the end result, but that is not our biggest problem. The most important thing is that we stop these people as soon as possible and spare you guys as much annoyance as we can until we come up with better solutions to the problem.

The only thing for players to keep in mind when reporting these chatty peddlers is that you use the correct petition category so we see the petition right away, and so our other petition queues don't fill up with petitions about long gone ISK peddlers. The exploit category would be an excellent choice when filing a petition about these guys as it is one of the so called 'express categories' and is closely monitored for quick news of the most urgent and vile of exploits.

The most important thing of all, as GM Nova so wisely pointed out, is to ignore their offers and never buy their ISK. Those who buy ISK are directly paying for the continued presence of these spammers in the game.


Perhaps make a new petition category specifically for isk sell spammers with the name of the spammer showing clearly on the interface you guys have to make it go a little quicker?

Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
Posted - 2007.07.12 08:34:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Natsuki


Perhaps make a new petition category specifically for isk sell spammers with the name of the spammer showing clearly on the interface you guys have to make it go a little quicker?


they still have to make sure that they dont ban any real/legitimate players

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.07.12 08:43:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Fenren
Originally by: Natsuki


Perhaps make a new petition category specifically for isk sell spammers with the name of the spammer showing clearly on the interface you guys have to make it go a little quicker?


they still have to make sure that they dont ban any real/legitimate players



Banning a few ISK buyers would be much more effective than any number of sellers. Banned seller accounts are just a business expense; if people know that they can lose their accounts for buying, then that will trash the RMT market.

Xrak
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.07.12 10:09:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: GM Nova
Hello everyone, senior GM Nova here.

If you feel that you have received an inappropriate reply from a GM regarding a petition, please file a complaint and I or those of us concerned with quality control will have a look at it.

In regards to ISK selling spam and how to deal with it. ISK selling spam can be likened to a skin rash. Dealing with only the spammers is akin to constantly applying cosmetics on the rash to hide it instead of doing something about the cause of the rash and finding a cure.

So, while we ban the trial accounts (logged on modified clients) used to spam, we prefer to directly attack the root of the problem, which is ISK buying. In most cases we can trace the sellers through the spammers with IP searches and other goody tools we have. When we catch the seller, we ban him/her and reverse all donations made from his character/s. This means that the ISK buyers will have their bought ISK removed, and they will have paid real money for nothing.

As far as we can tell, this is working. A month ago we removed 380 billion ISK from the economy. This is not a typo, 380 BILLION ISK. This we removed from hundreds players which had bought the ISK for real money, and in many cases landed them in a negative balance. We banned well over 100 accounts. (ISK sellers all of them) You will not hear this from the buyers who were cought as they will never admit to buying ISK and thus I am telling you now. Nor will we name and shame anyone.

To achieve final victory over Real Money Trade (ISK buying and the spam that follows) we need YOUR help. We can not do this alone. If you, the players lend us a hand in this by, first of all, not buying ISK and second of all discourage anyone from doing it, we can eventually beat this.

Together we can do this. This community is the most mature one any MMO can boast of, and we at CCP are damn proud of you. I fully believe that in unity we shall liquidate the rash and throw all cosmetics out the window.

WICTORY WILL BE OURS.

All the best,

GM Nova
Senior Game Master




Aye, you'd have to be stupid to risk being banned from buying ISK like this. Just buy some GTC and sell them people. Because that's like fine and everything Rolling Eyes

Iracham
Gallente
Posted - 2007.07.12 10:09:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Fenren
Originally by: Natsuki


Perhaps make a new petition category specifically for isk sell spammers with the name of the spammer showing clearly on the interface you guys have to make it go a little quicker?


they still have to make sure that they dont ban any real/legitimate players



Banning a few ISK buyers would be much more effective than any number of sellers. Banned seller accounts are just a business expense; if people know that they can lose their accounts for buying, then that will trash the RMT market.


Banned accounts don't pay $15/mo, isk sellers will buy another account, real people might not.

Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
Posted - 2007.07.12 10:16:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Fenren on 12/07/2007 10:16:24
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Fenren
Originally by: Natsuki


Perhaps make a new petition category specifically for isk sell spammers with the name of the spammer showing clearly on the interface you guys have to make it go a little quicker?


they still have to make sure that they dont ban any real/legitimate players



Banning a few ISK buyers would be much more effective than any number of sellers. Banned seller accounts are just a business expense; if people know that they can lose their accounts for buying, then that will trash the RMT market.


go ahead and ban the buyers! I fully support that one. but never rush any form of judgement before the punishment. I rahter see 100 isk buyers/sellers get cleared of their charges than one innocent getting banned

Anew Business
Posted - 2007.07.12 11:33:00 - [77]
 

I just got back in EVE and I’m sitting here on a Trail account till I get paid on Fri when I get paid and will activate my real accounts. Sorry I just couldn’t wait to get back in ;p

Personally, I see nothing wrong with keeping new players, or those “just on trail accounts specifically” exclusively in the Rookie Chat Channel or even in both just Rookie and Local channels.

This, as an alternative to having bots all over the place trying to sell isk. Frankly its annoying and we have to deal with his way too much as is.

Its really hard as a community to have discussions, talk to each other, so on and so forth with some guy who’s whole job is to sell CCP isk in a game we are trying to spend our Leisure Time In.

Seems all I have done sense I got back is block Isk Sellers in the chat channel. Its usually 1 or 2 every 1 to 5 minutes. Gona need a whole other server soon just too keep up with everyone’s “block listings”. I’m starting to really thing that all these ISK Sellers are actually the CCP development and marketing team.

Then again, we have a Volunteer Program and I guess I have no right to complain if I’m not volunteering to help out. Maybe the Volunteer’s should at least be given the ability to get these ISK Salesman out of the game even to a small degree.

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2007.07.17 04:09:00 - [78]
 

well, I thought I was done with this thread, but tonight it is bad again. They come so fast it is near impossible to carry on a conversation without scrolling.

I am currently maxed out at 3 open petitions and cannot report others. I stick by my OP and ask that CCP PLEASE take trial accounts out of the common chat channels.

The ISK spammers aren't ruining the game experience, inaction on this matter is. We have been putting up with this for far to damn long.


Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
Posted - 2007.07.17 04:48:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
CCP PLEASE take trial accounts out of the common chat channels.

The ISK spammers aren't ruining the game experience, inaction on this matter is. We have been putting up with this for far to damn long.

I agree completely.

I'm all for the GM's going for the root of the problem, but that is a long war and their actions aren't preventing the endless reams of SPAM in the meantime.

Spammed messages are wrecking the game for people who rely on these channels, now!

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2007.07.19 17:28:00 - [80]
 

OK, now my isk spammer petitions in exploits (as suggested by a GM in this thread) are going unanswered and left open. I had sent them 3 days ago!!!!! I had to cancel them to make room for a reimbursement petition due to a bugged corp wallet.

Nice work CCP, You really do care......

Big Al
The Aftermath
Posted - 2007.07.19 17:55:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Big Al on 19/07/2007 17:59:03
380b of bought isk would be a lot to eliminate from the game.

380b off the farmers accounts is nothing, just between the high sec mission farming syndicates and 0.0 cloak ravens they easily pull 60-70b a day in bounties (created isk) alone and that's probably on the low end of estimates.

Obviously the efforts are having some effect though, as the price per bil on the spamvertisements continues to fall indicating a large glut in the game. Now we just need to hope they don't give up on farming and start fielding fleets of supercaps.

shady trader
Posted - 2007.07.19 20:55:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Natsuki


Perhaps make a new petition category specifically for isk sell spammers with the name of the spammer showing clearly on the interface you guys have to make it go a little quicker?

If you have to validate the name a script could run in the back ground linking all the patitions against the seller together so GM's only see one with muliple sets on notes. The the queue is clear of the duplicates and they can reply to all the patitions linked to one account just by reply to the main one.

shady trader
Posted - 2007.07.19 20:58:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
well, I thought I was done with this thread, but tonight it is bad again. They come so fast it is near impossible to carry on a conversation without scrolling.

I am currently maxed out at 3 open petitions and cannot report others. I stick by my OP and ask that CCP PLEASE take trial accounts out of the common chat channels.

The ISK spammers aren't ruining the game experience, inaction on this matter is. We have been putting up with this for far to damn long.




I get round this by adding notes to the open patitions about the aditional sellers.

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2007.07.19 21:26:00 - [84]
 

Now they are into implants and anything else they can get their hands on at LP stores. Write a buy order for Standard implant at .01 isk higher then the highest buyer and it will be filled, regardless of price.... Then look at the characters that are selling them to you.... All gibberish names...
This game is getting ruined by these guys... I have petitioned a few times numerous 1 day old charas all with bs names 1 day old flying back and forth and depositing soil in one station. It is obvious that that are proxy running a courrier mission of some type and gaining unheard of LP's

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2007.07.19 21:29:00 - [85]
 

Again this all goes back to trial account abuse on a large scale...

I hate to sound whiney, but we have been complaining about macros and bots for far to long to have them still in the game. Now there is a market bot that will monitor items and under/over cut by .01 isk whenever you write a better buy order or lower sell order.

That thread is in market discussions....

Iwillnotbestoppedeve
Posted - 2007.07.23 15:19:00 - [86]
 

Please do not discuss warnings, bans or GM actions on the forums; use a petition instead - Serathu (mods@ccpgames.com)

Dragon Eddie
Posted - 2007.07.23 15:34:00 - [87]
 

If selling isk is easy under CCP's nose..haha. Then CCP has no care for the deteriorating game integrity that this kind of spamming is causing. LogiCcal to realize why old civilizations, concepts and online games die out...APATHY.

iF YOU BUY ISK, THE COMPANY MAY AQUITRE YOUR PASSWORD FROM YOU AND RECLAIM THE ISK THEY SOLD YOU AND DO DAMAGE TO YOUR SETUP.

Myspace are currently being accused of being bribed by spammers, though they go on about stopping them, they do very little about itRolling Eyes


F9OOEX
Posted - 2007.07.23 15:54:00 - [88]
 


F90OEX
F9X
Posted - 2007.07.23 15:57:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: F90OEX on 23/07/2007 15:58:22
CCP even I'm totally fed up about the ISK spamming, stop allowing trial accounts into the trade channels. 40 lines of ISK spamming in the ship channel this morning did for me. Enough is enough ..

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2007.07.23 16:00:00 - [90]
 

The worst thing about this is you can only fill out 2 reports at a time :p



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