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Tian Xiao
Caldari
Posted - 2007.06.28 06:23:00 - [61]
 

Hey Doc, welcome to CCP and EVE.

The following blog article might interest you...
http://www.eyeslikeours.com/2007/06/26/money-and-banking-online-games/

It seems the author of the article hasn't played any EVE (or MUDs for that matter), but that aside, it makes for interesting economical reading :P

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.06.28 08:52:00 - [62]
 

Welcome to EVE Dr.EyjóG!

Althought I play for pewpew, I'm quite interested in the game economics, I couldn't believe the EVE economy was working so well, and only with player trading before I play.

As I prefer fight over economy and I'm here to play, I've not spent too much looking into economics, I think I will really enjoy your reports on the EVE economy!

Maybe you'll be able to help the devs regulate the drop rates of items, invention chance, NPC trading, etc...

Good luck!

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.28 08:55:00 - [63]
 

I, for one, welcome our new economic overlords.

Irma Bondis
Posted - 2007.06.28 09:07:00 - [64]
 

First of all a big welcome to you Dr.EyjóG, and congratulations to CCP on a wise move.

The thing I am most looking forward to is your read on the benefits or harm changes like the introduction of the LP store, new tech levels, invention or balancing changes cause the EVE economy (which one had the bigger impact for instance).

That even a virtual economy manages to find a balance if left alone for a long enough time is proven by the fact that most items have had the same price level for several years now. It would be fun though I expect predictable to see a technical explanation for this, the simple fact that the number of people in the economy has been multiplied by about 20 over the past two years and how the economy manages to stabalize despite that would be an intresting read.



Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.06.28 09:16:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 28/06/2007 09:19:03
Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 28/06/2007 09:15:20

(damn, skill level zero in typing)

Knowing the hardest part of good economics presentation:
What's your skill level on powerpoint presentations? Wink

--
Btw, any chance of getting that EVE Economics presentation from Fanfest 2005? (since you referred to it :)

Dr Aryandi
Posted - 2007.06.28 09:45:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Frug
Welcome aboard economy master.

I'd like to see the value of the t1 module BPO's become more useful, at least some of them. I might be wrong, maybe in some locations it's useful to have them, but so many of those BPOs just seem so worthless given how much they drop from rats and such and how many better named modules are on the market. The incentive to try and start a small business building t1 modules appears nonexistent to me though.


This is very true. The only module I've ever made significant money on was shield transporters (because at the time NPCs didn't drop them).

The module market is dead - ships and the few select modules that don't drop from NPCs are the only place where industrialists can realistically compete in the tech 1 market.

Coquillette
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2007.06.28 09:50:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Coquillette on 28/06/2007 09:56:54
I'm looking forward to reading interesting stuff about virtual economy coming from you, Dear Sir.

edit : does this mean that Friedman Coalition and Keynes Alliance are resetting standings? If so, where will stand Ricardo Unleashed?

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2007.06.28 09:51:00 - [68]
 

I'm starting to wonder if EVE needs an FSA type organisation to oversee those who have particular power over market trends.

The Devs obviously tinker with the economy from time to time and one does wonder if they make personal gains from this insider knowledge. Take the Armor Plates as an example. Someone made a killing on that one, I wonder who ?

Spoon Thumb
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.06.28 11:49:00 - [69]
 


Oh also, sort out shares and introduce Bonds would be cool too please Very Happy

Unholy Preacher
Trade Consortium
Initiative Associates
Posted - 2007.06.28 11:56:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Spoon Thumb

Oh also, sort out shares and introduce Bonds would be cool too please Very Happy



There is a quasi debenture system right now i believe. I think (tho havent tried) that you could setup a "money" loan contract and stipulate a nominal yeild on interest for what is expected to be returned. If there isnt well, that would be a great way to add to contracts system ;)

n0thing
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2007.06.28 11:58:00 - [71]
 

Great intro, as for economics.

Well, the biggest difference and the biggest problem in EVE is the monopoly and cartels. Good part of T2 items are sold at fixed prices while theres more then one BPO holder. And since to be better you have to buy those mods, theres no choise. Thus prices can be altered on the fly without any risk

Thats the main difference imo with human driven economy irl and here. Ofc, theres always some 'agreements' but not on such wide variety of things like in EVE.

At least take a look at pre-invention HAC price history. If you dig on forums, you can even find posts where builders clearly stated that they will increase prices as much as they want and people will still buy.

Spoon Thumb
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.06.28 12:11:00 - [72]
 


The trouble with shares is that there is a lack of trust in both directions.

Share holders could use short / 1 day votes to ninja sneak in their own CEO and asset strip the company, whilst there is no way of forcing a CEO to issue dividends

Perhaps forcing a corp to pay but not allowing the corp wallet to go into -ve territory. (So you have a 2nd amount in corp wallet under balance saying "Debt" or "Money owed". When corp is forced to pay dividends or bonds maturing, but they don't have enough cash, the wallet is emptied to zero and then the "Debt" counter appears. Each time some new money comes in, it is instantly taken out of wallet and debt counter decreased?)

And another problem is when buying a corp or merging there is nothing to stop players just leaving, where players are often a corps most important asset.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what bonds are but I was thinking of something a corp could sell or issue like shares but which gave no control over appointing CEO or whatnot.

Also, I always thought it'd be nice to expand the "Bill" system (currently seen only for corp office rentals) into a fully fledged credit system

Another problem I have with the eve economy is the lack of product differentiation. A Medium Shield Booster I is the same whoever makes it, and what is worse, we can't make named stuff or custom modules.

In the past, ccp have said that custom modules / branding would require a major re-write of some critical code, but I don't think it should be ruled out all together and should be a long term (say within next 5 years) aim

Galpricewatch
Posted - 2007.06.28 12:37:00 - [73]
 

Welcome Dr.EyjóG!

While have no economic education in real life, I truly enjoy playing with the market in EVE. In my opinion there exsists no other game that provides a better makret simulation.

I will be looking forward to any and all economic reports.

Laughing God
Posted - 2007.06.28 13:17:00 - [74]
 

Welcome Dr.EyjóG!

The EVE economy an exciting one, and it will be good to have an economist there to keep track of it. I will be looking forward to your reports.

I wonder if there is an oppertunity to design a workable market for the ingame stocks.

ma7hatter
Posted - 2007.06.28 14:08:00 - [75]
 

Welcome Dr.EyjóG,

One thing I would like to see is a Consumer Price Index for eve as well as a Federal Bank system. I think people should be able to "Save" their money in a player run bank and have that bank loan money to entrepreneurial players with interest. Perhaps you could even be in charge of setting interest rate standards and the like.

Fenderson
Posted - 2007.06.28 17:23:00 - [76]
 

my biggest interest is in seeing directly useful statistics.

-LP index to help mission runners decide what to spend LP on and help consumers decide what is a good buy

-various T2 price indexes. for example, we could have an armor tanking index, shield tanking index, projectile weapons index, HAC index, etc... to help producers decide what to produce.

-mineral, datacore, and t2 component indexes

djenghis jan
Amarr
Debiloff
Posted - 2007.06.28 17:35:00 - [77]
 

Nice!

I have a few questions. In EVE the game is basicly to earn money. So there is, just as in the real world, a relation between income and effort. What i would like to know is how this relationship will evolve and how this is considered in game design.

For mining , missions , industry, exploration and invention it seems to be a simple linear proces with skill determining the rate at which the money roles in. There are hardly any factors that modify this. Teaming up with other players doing these tasks and sharing the income is in most cases just as efficient than five single players playing alone.

In 0.0 space there is also a sharing the work and income which is necessary for territorial control and security but does not lead to extra efficiency in making money.

So how about it? In the real world a group of people like a design team can increase the efficiency by for example designing a machine that can operate independently. The EVE equivalent of this is a macro and is an exploit.

So how does this relate to eve economy, in second life you can buy things from other players that you programmed on your own. What i would like in EVE is a means to alter the rules as a player to gain an advantage.

As an example : what if we could program missile guiddance or drone ai ourselves? This would mean one could modify the client to operate in game items much as a macro would do but then in a manner that enhances the game. Other ideas are formations, sharing ingame intel, group targeting, formations and so on. Or in terms of economics, it would be nice if one could build ships intended for the market with energy management or heat managing subroutines hardcoded by the seller. Any thoughts on the subject?


Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2007.06.28 22:22:00 - [78]
 

Good move CCP. I'm a little intrigued about what your role will actually be though.

Will you have real powers? Or will you be more of a market analyst?

Can you suggest changes to base mineral prices for reasons X,Y,Z or will you merely be reporting on them in a research kind of capacity?

Anyway, whatever special powers you may have, I hope that you enjoy your time at CCP and I know the Eve community will welcome your sage words...

My experiences of the Eve economy are the bottom rung of the ladder I guess. I'm a pauper though I've played for 2 years. I started out by buying and selling the best tech I (Modal) blasters in far away regions and then reselling them for a nice profit margin in areas of high demand (Gallente space).

I've followed this by starting a tech I manufacturing corporation, but the profit margins in empire space was not really worth the time moving round collecting small amounts of cheaply bought minerals...We were trying to build ships, which I now think is a terrible idea for new corporations. The overhead of the BPO, along with ferocious competition and the potential for a large amount of corp assetts in the shape of a few battleships to be tied up indefinately on a slow market suggests to me that if you need quick sales to get your income going then ships (especially battleships) are not the way forward or new folks.

We also tried blueprint research and resale of tech I blueprints, but again competition is too fierce, especially when old hands with lots of cash to spend on multiple copies of expensive BPOs can bully you out of the market. There also is no way of getting your message out there to the masses. Media, marketing and advertising (*spits*) is sadly missing in Eve.

I've now disbanded the corp due to my time constraints, but we all remain friends. But I've now got into trying manufacturing of rigs. Since I have been around since they (and the salvage) were introduced, I at least feel I'm on a more or less level playing field with the veterans. Currently the rigs market is quite slow I guess, due to the relativly high cost and the 'self build' capability being used by most people.

I'd like to be rich enough to try experimenting with the market - artificially inflating a products price by selling it at very high prices repeatedly to an alt, to then see if I could then sell a stock of an item at a much higher price. Rigs would be great to try this with right now, since its a developing market I think, but I dont't really know what I'm talking about since I know little about economics except that which is common sense....BUY LOW, SELL HIGH!

I've accepted sadly, that I'll never become the Gordon Ghekko of Eve... but being Bud Fox will do just fine for me! :)

I look forward to hearing more from you Doc.

Cheers,
Vyk.

Sol Flare
Tenth Legion
Posted - 2007.06.28 23:40:00 - [79]
 

Welcome to the world of Eve!

I think this will be a great addition to the growing environment of EvE. I look forward to seeing a few reports.

From reading other posts it appears people have ventured away from your real purpose here and have asked you to make changes already.. LoL Get used to it is all I can say Wink

"As the lead economist for EVE, my duties will include publishing economic information to the EVE-Online community. My duties will also be to coordinate research cooperation with academic institutions as the academic world has expressed quite an interest in doing research on this phenomenon..." - Dr.EyjóG from Move over, Greenspan

- How will these reports be published and how often?
- Where can we obtain copies of these reports?
- Assuming you are going to be using a basket of goods... what is going to be in that basket? Rolling Eyes
- Seeing how most countries handle inflation, will EvE be introducing a way to implement fiscal/monetary policies?
- Is this PURELY meant for human behavioral science or also help improve the EvE economy (upcoming changes)?

I won't swamp you with more questions... I'm sure you have your head split right open atm! Take care... Hope you enjoy the game.. errrr Universe!
Wink

Horus Hunter
Rens 911
Posted - 2007.06.29 00:14:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Horus Hunter on 29/06/2007 00:17:43
I hope you realize that the majority of broken things in the EVE economy are because of broken game mechanics not market manupulations. Chinese miners and ratters working in shifts on the same character(s) 24x7, pulling in inordinate amounts of ISK. (I know of one corp in particular that has thier guys logged in and playing 24x7 in shifts in 0.0 space and they must pull in hundreds of billions per month) Mistimed or broken spawning mechanisms. Macro miners. I would bet that these three things cause more harm to the EVE economy than anything else.

Earning ISK as a source of real world wealth (Chinese farming) has wrecked the economies of several games already. Leading to situations where you have to buy in game wealth with real money in order to afford anything decent. When a guy can be paid 20 cents an hour to make the equilivant of $6-8 in real world money you can bet that it's going to be farmed. Time card prices going higher and higher is probably the best indication of inflation that I know of.

As an example you can probably make 30 or 40 million an hour pretty easily in 0.0 space ratting. More if you glean all the loot. So if you have 50 accounts pulling in 700m a day each thats 35 billion a day being added to the economy just driving inflation like crazy. Who knows how much of thier loot makes it back to empire causing what kinds of mineral market pressures. Good luck solving this problem.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.29 00:56:00 - [81]
 

Yay, they finally took my advice !
*does a happy dance*

Now, seriously, I did make a rather acidic comment a while back about the NEED of a true economist onboard the CCP team.
The pretty angry thread is available here
Of course, I wasn't the only one, I wasn't the first one, and certainly not the last one to suggest this.
Just glad it finally happened.

Ever since, I've mulled over it for a while, but still, some of the key points presented there remain valid.
I would really like to know if Dr.EyjóG got a chance to look at that thread or not... and if not, I would like to ask him to do so.

While we're on the subject, I also made a pretty in-depth analysis at what FUNDAMENTALLY separates a "real-life" economy from the EVE economy.
So far, most of (or should I say, nearly every) of the points I made there a good while ago have been proved right by in-game events.
EVE economy primer thread

So, no matter how conceited I might seem by even posting this, here, right now, I would really love an answer.
Not now, of course, not even a personal reply, but some time and in some form, as long as the issues in there GET addressed somehow.

Thank you in advance.

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2007.06.29 01:42:00 - [82]
 

Fantastic addition to the team. As many others have already said - I look forward to your input and comments in the future.

You may not like the way CCP does everything, but they are probably the most innovative team I know of. Particularly in the gaming world. Great move, CCP.

Smile

Moppeux O'Mara
Fleet Innovations
Posted - 2007.06.29 04:02:00 - [83]
 

Hello and welcome to EVE !

I am really looking forward your observations on the EVE economy and markets.

I'd like to know if you will publish the results of research that will be made on us.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2007.06.29 05:24:00 - [84]
 

what's there to study in EVE for a professional economist? there are no financial institutions in EVE, and their existence if impossible because any trust enforcement will be circumvented by using alts...

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2007.06.29 08:08:00 - [85]
 

Um my question is:
Isnt the economy player driven? How is this guy gonna help the players make the market better?

hilaw
Posted - 2007.06.29 09:47:00 - [86]
 

Whilst I personally are not concerned, I can't wait until the Omg Dev insider trading thread; coming to a forum near you soon™

Aside from that any of the data that has until now been mined by CCP, and thrown on the interns in box, from volume of tritium traded daily, and the % of that actually used for production daily would be of great interest.

Peace Fox
Caldari
Katana-Missionrunner
Posted - 2007.06.29 09:59:00 - [87]
 

I have often thought that eve is such an excellent sandbox for economical studies that ccp should work together with universities.

I am glad that u have decided to employ an econmist now!

I have a lot idea's what an economist could/should do/study inform about in eve. I am at work atm so I wont explain it all now... where will be the discussion thread in future about that topic. In forum/market discussion'

Peace Fox

Jasmine Yin
Reign In Sin
Posted - 2007.06.29 10:36:00 - [88]
 

Greetings! You certainly have your work cut out for you! I am looking forward to seeing some reports from you in the future since I really love EvE's economic aspect. Best in the MMO industry BY FAR!

Cervalan
Minmatar
Starfield United Technologies LLP
Posted - 2007.06.29 11:34:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Hardin
Edited by: Hardin on 27/06/2007 16:59:54

CCP do not recruit any more economists. They can never agree on anything so one is enough.

I am also interested to learn if Dr.EyjóG is a fan of

Keynes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes

or

Friedman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman

This is important Razz




Nah, I prefer either
Hayek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek or

or

Mises http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

Cervalan
Minmatar
Starfield United Technologies LLP
Posted - 2007.06.29 11:35:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Hardin
Edited by: Hardin on 27/06/2007 16:59:54

CCP do not recruit any more economists. They can never agree on anything so one is enough.

I am also interested to learn if Dr.EyjóG is a fan of

Keynes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes

or

Friedman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman

This is important Razz




Nah, I prefer either
Hayek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek
or

Mises http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises


(Edited to remove stutter.)


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