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mudders
Minmatar
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.26 07:43:00 - [61]
 

Immediately after update I just added /end /LUA:OFF at the end of the shortcut target. (Although it is slightly different than documented in the patch notes) I did this for all 4 of my installations (3 for tranq, 1 for sisi)

Works as before, all accounts 'completely' seperate, so no change needed for the batch file that manages all my transient files in RAMdisk too.

I'll be using the new windows profile location once ALL transient/setting files are seperated completely per account.

Vala Draaken
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.06.26 13:48:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Vala Draaken on 26/06/2007 13:55:44
Originally by: Akita T
You could not have avoided the overview/colour settings resets.
It's CCP's policy, apparently, to always wipe those clean back to defaults for each (major) patch.
And it's intentional, not accidental.

My overview settings survived the patch just fine. On both my accounts (seperate folders).

After I had patched, I started both clients without "/end /LUA:OFF". Saw that only one of them had cache and settings copied to the new location. Shut them both down and moved the setting files back and added "/end /LUA:OFF".

Everything has been working A-OK since. I only lost UI colors and chat window positions.

Originally by: Chribba
let us do '/datapath=X:\EVE\Client827' for our setting/cache/data needs!

That's an excellent idea.

Vala D.

Edit: Added Chribba quote.

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.26 14:28:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: mudders
Immediately after update I just added /end /LUA:OFF at the end of the shortcut target. (Although it is slightly different than documented in the patch notes) I did this for all 4 of my installations (3 for tranq, 1 for sisi)

Works as before, all accounts 'completely' seperate, so no change needed for the batch file that manages all my transient files in RAMdisk too.

I'll be using the new windows profile location once ALL transient/setting files are seperated completely per account.


If you log on the same characters on both, you'll find your Sisi settings start doing ebil things to your TQ settings, or vice versa. The settings folder and the logs folder are not separated on a per-client basis by those two command line switches; you need a .bat file to do that.

--P

Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
Posted - 2007.06.26 14:30:00 - [64]
 

I'd still like to know from the Dev's what the two switches do precisely.

I imagine the /LUA:OFF switch stands for something like "Local User Account" and stops the bulk of the cache being migrated, so why the need for another switch "/end" and what does it do exactly?

Is there an offical doc on all command line modifiers and all .ini settings?

Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.26 14:46:00 - [65]
 

God i have to agree who the hell cares what M$ wants to do with my pc its my pc and i will install eve where i like run in admin mode 24/7 if i like and put my god dam files where i like, some sort of warning would have been nice.

Personally i will be staying away from vista till forced to use the dam thing, its ME only in 2007 only this time it doing aload of crap i never asked it to do.

And yes i have used vista where thinking about moving are 450 pc network over to it, but i have manged to delay that by at least 2 years (thankg god).

I have now have eveil files all over the palce, you think ccp could have reliased that trying to move my 350 meg of game logs and screen dumps to a drive with less than 100 meg of free space on it was not going to work out.

/****ed off with change for the sake of change.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2007.06.26 14:46:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 26/06/2007 14:48:56
Originally by: Fink Angel
I'd still like to know from the Dev's what the two switches do precisely.

I imagine the /LUA:OFF switch stands for something like "Local User Account" and stops the bulk of the cache being migrated, so why the need for another switch "/end" and what does it do exactly?

Is there an offical doc on all command line modifiers and all .ini settings?

LUA stands for "Least-privileged User Account".

Basically an account that has just enough privileges to do what it needs to do and nothing else. It doesn't "need" to write in the program files sub directory so it doesn't have the right to do it.

Shozo
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.26 15:23:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Shozo on 26/06/2007 15:28:20
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 26/06/2007 02:56:54
1. Only audio settings (enabled/disabled) are totally shared.
Video settings only apply to main pre-login screen.
Once you login to your account, individual video settings apply, so, yes, you can run two windowed clients of different screen sizes from the same installation.

2. Sorry, no, that wouldn't have happened. Not how you think, anyway.
The old settings files are not fully compatible with the new settings files.
I backed them up fully, just in case. Overview settings and color scheme settings were wiped clean anyway.
Folder settings and chat channels open were prefectly preserved, however.

Note: I *did* manually move the cache/settings files when Rev2.0 rolled out, I didn't let the client do it itself.
Well, I mean, I cleaned them out a bit, then made a backup ZIP and manually moved remaining files to the proper new folders.


I was going solely off what the developer had posted. According to his post the audio and window settings are shared with the new change. And from my experience he is correct. So, if I somehow misread this...my bad, however, it does not change my second point in any way.

Stating that the overview filters, BM's, and whatever wouldn't have been preserved post patch is absolutely false. I know this to be true because, on my second client, I applied the proper commands to the shortcut before launching the client post-patch and this preserved ALL settings for that client. This would be a direct result of not allowing the patch to relocate the cache and related folders to the "more secure" my documents folder. These steps were only done on the second client I have installed due to my main one getting totally wrecked by CCP's lack of foresight(no surprise there).

Quote:
If you would have let the client complete the move, you would have maintained folders, channels and market quickbar settings, and others like that.

You could not have avoided the overview/colour settings resets.
It's CCP's policy, apparently, to always wipe those clean back to defaults for each (major) patch.
And it's intentional, not accidental.

P.S. The patchnotes are still incorrect though.
It's not like this : [ "C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE\eve.exe /end /LUA:OFF" ],
...but instead so: [ "C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE\eve.exe" /end /LUA:OFF ].


All of that is also false. I did, in fact, allow the client to completely load...then undocked and found everything was completely changed. The notes on the "patch notes" page were added post-patch as they love to do. They were not in the notes prior to patch day and as such it is directly CCP's fault. Sure, I am pointing a finger but, this lazy half-assed stuff is getting annoying. Bandaides(no I won't get specific as that's not the point) and stealth additions(other than exploits) are flat out products of laziness.

Not to mention the point the Band of Brothers member pointed out about video settings earlier...primary versus secondary displays and delegating clients to the displays.

Anyways, I said what I wanted to say and will leave it at that. No point discussing this beyond what has already been done. CCP please become unlazy...especially when you're one of the small percentage of development companies that has an actual live testing server...

--
YARRRR!!

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.06.26 16:03:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 25/06/2007 23:58:00
Originally by: Andrue
You don't need multiple Eve installs to run multiple accounts concurrently. I've been running two accounts for over three years and always done so from the one folder. The only time I have more than one Eve folder is when I have a Sisi patch.

You're absolutely right here. If you are only connecting to Tranquility then you can and I would recommend that you use a single client. The EVE client handles multiple accounts (and therefore 3x multiple characters) and you don't need to make any changes from the default install so long as you are only connecting to Tranquility. The only settings that are then being shared between the accounts are the audio settings and the main program window settings.

Only if you are connecting to our test servers, Singularity or Multiplicity, then you need multiple clients, since those server are running different versions than Tranquility. But then you also have to use "/end /LUA:OFF" or examine this thread (a re-direct approach to multiple clients) or this thread (a "multiple Windows users, set 'run with different credentials' for each client" approach to multiple clients; top part of post) to keep the clients separate.

Originally by: Andrue
The reason this is being done is because the Windows security model is based in part on preventing casual access to program installations. This is a sensible idea. The only time any program should need to write into its installation directory is when it is installed.

Which is exactly why we were forced to make this change. The data and settings files should never have been stored in the Program Files folder anyway (not even on Windows 2000 and Windows XP). Windows Vista enforces that programs don't write into the Program Files folder and Windows Vista users are by now a sizeable part of the EVE community. We didn't have much choice in making this change.


You did not have a choice, but it does not mean you deny your customers the same. Blaming your lack of programming skills and foresight on Microsoft is not a good tactic.

I am running EVE from an USB drive that I move between computers. Now I have to be very carefull not to nuke my settings and I have NO possibility NOT to polute all the different machines My Documents folder with EVE crap. I have to manualy delete the created folder afterwards loosing the capture data created during the session (or again manualy copy back).

You have plenty options to configure this. Either a command line switch (as suggested by Chribba, or the one inmplete configuration you made) or a per account/server setting directory, so we can safely move the data manualy (as in my situation), detecting if the move is needed at all (if vista then move, else do nothing) etc.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.26 16:04:00 - [69]
 

What the *bleep* is wrong with you people at CCP?
Do you have to fix things that don't *need* fixing?

Recommended MS practices are very far from must-abide-by rules Rolling Eyes

Can't possibly describe how angry I get whenever I have to redo my overview settings.... thank god I don't have insta-jump BM's anymore or I'd realy quit if I lost the folders Razz

AND

The camera still resets to max zoom-in after each session change...ARGH Mad

CrazyChinchilla
Unpredictable Carnage
Posted - 2007.06.26 16:35:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: JoDirt
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: JoDirt
From a windows programing standpoint it is "Best practice" to place this kind of content in the My Documents folder. Even for XP. Sloppy habits started back with win95 this is a correction of that sloppy habit. They just need to organize it a better.


Too bad that the windows profile goes down like a drunk prom date when it gets to be over 6-7 gigs in size. This so called "best practice" is equivalent of digging your own XP grave.


I will have to retest that in XP, I haven't run XP for a while. However when I did My Documents folder had about 40gigs of data (virtual machines) in it and ran like a champ, vista also runs fine with this amount.


It could be the whole VM thing, a true profile of more than 7 gigs at my IT job ends up getting corrupted, and really odd **** happens. It usually happens with the application data, i.e. local mail file trees get all wonky and don't point the proper locations, etc.



Running Windows Vista with over 7 gigs in the Documents folder no problems here. The only problem with vista is the idle RAM usage of Aero, but once you upgrade the ram to 2+ gigs it doesn't even matter. 1 gig is definitely not enough and 1.5 is probably too little as well.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2007.06.26 17:19:00 - [71]
 

Call me crazy, but I do a lot of sensitive data stuff on my computer so EVERY night I do a complete defrag with alphabetical file reorder and free-space overwrites. The ONLY thing I put on my windows drive is stuff that windows needs to run, and those few MS products that are too stubborn to work otherwise.

I can also gaurantee that if the average person's windows account goes south for some reason, they'll have one heck of a time getting their settings back. Windows doesn't like letting you open files from "rival" administrator accounts.

For example, try this:
Install windows, install outlook using default settings and write yourself an email.
Reinstall windows, same account name, same account password, etc. and try to get back to that old outlook folder file - it's still there, but will forever be exclusively "locked" to windows.

Now, I DO work for a LAN party gone bad and here are some simple rules for dealing with windows:
a) More files on a windows boot drive = bad
- Nothing like a BIG HONKING mft to slow a windows boot
b) c:\My documents and settings\ = bad
- This is the directory that likes to go all forms of bad
c) Installing ANYTHING into Program Files = bad
- Simple Security issue - any virus worth its salt will simply affect this directory before windows even loads.
d) Putting more crap into MY Documents = bad
- See reason for c) - and anyone worth their salt will move this off it's default location anyway.

John Blackthorn
Foundation
Posted - 2007.06.26 17:43:00 - [72]
 

I have had a difficult time with my clients both crashing and having to redo settings alot after the patch. I run two accounts and for the first few days I could not get both accounts to run stable at the same time. After adding the /end /lua:off on both clients i now can run two stable accounts. Though settings still keep getting mucked up.

I don't like logs from both accounts going to the same directly btw, I like to read my logs and it's difficult to go back and trade down which log is from which client. I want to read up on those damage logs.

-John

shady trader
Posted - 2007.06.26 19:07:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: shady trader on 26/06/2007 19:07:23
Originally by: Hugh Ruka


I am running EVE from an USB drive that I move between computers. Now I have to be very carefull not to nuke my settings and I have NO possibility NOT to polute all the different machines My Documents folder with EVE crap. I have to manualy delete the created folder afterwards loosing the capture data created during the session (or again manualy copy back).

You have plenty options to configure this. Either a command line switch (as suggested by Chribba, or the one inmplete configuration you made) or a per account/server setting directory, so we can safely move the data manualy (as in my situation), detecting if the move is needed at all (if vista then move, else do nothing) etc.


you are not the only one, It was one of the advantages of eve that you could just stick it on a portable drive and just attach the drive to any machine that meet the spec.

Also on the fact you can run mutiple accounts from one client, it was not that long ago then the people were reporting stability problem the first step was to seperate the acounts by using seperate installs. Do a search on the known Issues forum if you want to see the advise given.

I personally over 19 games installed on my machine at the moment (including some microsoft ones), the only one that touches my C: drive is Eve (till I get round to forcing it back into its own directory).

In some ways I agree with CCP about requiring access to the program files directorty, however some of us had already dealt with the problem by not following Microsofts Stupid advice to installing their in the first place. You could have avoided the problem by not having the program files folder as the default installation location. Any old time windows Admin knows, you do not mix the OS and the important files, that way then the OS desides to die and you have to rebuild, your files are safe on a seperate drive ready for then the OS is working again.

JoDirt
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.06.26 19:28:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Pwett
Call me crazy, but I do a lot of sensitive data stuff on my computer so EVERY night I do a complete defrag with alphabetical file reorder and free-space overwrites. The ONLY thing I put on my windows drive is stuff that windows needs to run, and those few MS products that are too stubborn to work otherwise.

I can also gaurantee that if the average person's windows account goes south for some reason, they'll have one heck of a time getting their settings back. Windows doesn't like letting you open files from "rival" administrator accounts.

For example, try this:
Install windows, install outlook using default settings and write yourself an email.
Reinstall windows, same account name, same account password, etc. and try to get back to that old outlook folder file - it's still there, but will forever be exclusively "locked" to windows.

Now, I DO work for a LAN party gone bad and here are some simple rules for dealing with windows:
a) More files on a windows boot drive = bad
- Nothing like a BIG HONKING mft to slow a windows boot
b) c:\My documents and settings\ = bad
- This is the directory that likes to go all forms of bad
c) Installing ANYTHING into Program Files = bad
- Simple Security issue - any virus worth its salt will simply affect this directory before windows even loads.
d) Putting more crap into MY Documents = bad
- See reason for c) - and anyone worth their salt will move this off it's default location anyway.


In your scenario you have a SID change. That is the reason. try that in recovery mode and you will have better results.

I find the amount of misinformation in this thread both amazing and scary at the same time. CCP did what they should have done a long time ago, end of story. Good job CCP complying with Best Practices.

Rhadamantine
Game Community
Posted - 2007.06.26 19:28:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Rhadamantine on 26/06/2007 19:27:59
Originally by: Andrue
You don't need multiple Eve installs to run multiple accounts concurrently. I've been running two accounts for over three years and always done so from the one folder. The only time I have more than one Eve folder is when I have a Sisi patch.


This man speaks the truth, I can run 4 accounts at the same time from one installation.

Viqer Fell
Minmatar
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2007.06.26 21:33:00 - [76]
 

I used to do this but I ran into several issues predominantly though randomly one or two of the three accounts would lose connection for no identifiable reason which doesnt tend to happen when i run three spearate eve clients.


Ekscalybur
Caldari
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2007.06.26 21:48:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: tommit
O.o

are you serius dude?! you complaining that you can't use more then one account at the same time effectively?! you GOTTA be kidding me Laughing

i am just waiting for them to forbid more then one account for each player, and letting you train on all 3 charector and giving a link under show info to the two other chars so you know who the person is AS IT SHOULD BE Wink


I would sell children into slavery for this change.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2007.06.26 22:08:00 - [78]
 

Everyone referring to a program's permissions to access the 'Program Files' folder Fails by default.

Installing stuff to that folder is just another Microsoft convention.

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2007.06.27 00:51:00 - [79]
 

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=527827

I think running eve from a USB port would best be done using the method you see there..
Seperating client cache/logs is best done by going there..

dont use a Microsoft Restricted folder (Program Files) or such...

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.06.27 02:38:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: JoDirt
Well people also run around *****ing about being prompted for stupid things in vista because a program is poorly written, MS isn't going to change the code for every software vendor out there, it's up to the vendor to write code specific to the platform.


Ever heard of boycot?

Yeah, thought so.

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.06.27 02:46:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Natsuki
I wish you could have the main window settings on an account basis for those of us with multiple monitors so I don't have to choose a different device every time I want a window on a different monitor.


And as an aside, isn't this already so? Graphics options seem to be stored on a per account basis for me (resolution & device), while sound options don't, or at least didn't when I last ran with sound. Running two accs from the same install and only have to move the eve windows to the correct monitor, but not ever change the device.

Abye
Caldari
Blinking Wallet makes me happy
Posted - 2007.06.27 03:07:00 - [82]
 

I think most blame goes to microsoft to have the the application data folder hidden in the userprofile folder.
And since there is no easy equivalent to a UNIX symlinks, things get even more annoying.

But hey, Microsoft screwed up big time anyway by sticking Windows NT to the drive letter concept and the problems that subsequently came with that. If you have a single filetree like in UNIX style systems, things get a TON easier to move between partitions since to the application they seem to be on the same spot.

All clueless users that are permanently in admin mode are the main reason we have so many botnetworks and spam today.

Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.27 03:15:00 - [83]
 

Simple answer is to have an option during install. The switches are automatically appended to the shortcut if you opt for them. Not a major task for CCP, even a first year programming student could accomplish that.

Failing that, use the install folder name so that you have 'EVE' (for d:\games\EVE) and 'EVESISI' (for D:\games\EVESISI) for example in the docs folder so that the cache and settings for each install are kept seperated. Whatever directory the user creates to install the version is the name for the docs directory. If Vista will not accept data files in the game folder, this seems about the only way to do it.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2007.06.27 05:17:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: shady trader
Any old time windows Admin knows, you do not mix the OS and the important files, that way then the OS desides to die and you have to rebuild, your files are safe on a seperate drive ready for then the OS is working again.


QFT

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.27 05:59:00 - [85]
 

USB drive fix.

Which, coincidentally, also solves pretty much every other problem mentioned so far in this thread.

But who am I kidding? Nobody reads to page 3.

--P

Apertotes
Posted - 2007.06.27 06:47:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Pilk
USB drive fix.

Which, coincidentally, also solves pretty much every other problem mentioned so far in this thread.

But who am I kidding? Nobody reads to page 3.

--P


hey pilk, i read to page 3, as many others. the problem is that many of us do not understand anything about that solution, and i do not like creating shortcuts that i do not really know what they do.

CCP should understand that the big part of the players arent computer tecnicians and that the mainstream solution can not depend on some random post on the forums.

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.27 07:37:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
God i have to agree who the hell cares what M$ wants to do with my pc its my pc and i will install eve where i like run in admin mode 24/7 if i like and put my god dam files where i like, some sort of warning would have been nice.

Personally i will be staying away from vista till forced to use the dam thing, its ME only in 2007 only this time it doing aload of crap i never asked it to do.

And yes i have used vista where thinking about moving are 450 pc network over to it, but i have manged to delay that by at least 2 years (thankg god).

I have now have eveil files all over the palce, you think ccp could have reliased that trying to move my 350 meg of game logs and screen dumps to a drive with less than 100 meg of free space on it was not going to work out.
I bet you refuse to wear a seatbelt when you're in a vehicle as well don't you? Continue to smoke? Drink way too much?

Quote:
/****ed off with change for the sake of change.
These changes are the result of Microsoft trying to help protect people. For too long software development companies have abused Microsoft's lax security model. Now, at long last, Microsoft are trying to put their house in order. Unfortunately they're having to drag other developers into the modern world and that means changing industry practice. Placing data under an installation directory is poor practice and that means a lot of applications need to change.

Logging in to use a computer as an administrator is utter stupidity if it isn't necessary. With Windows XP MS finally gave us a viable (not perfect, but viable) security model. Do you complain about the hassle of locking your house when you go out? Meh. From the sound of it you probably do.

Krezeb
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Posted - 2007.06.27 10:17:00 - [88]
 

As long as Windows and DX are the most popular gaming platform currently available, we'll have to do what Microsoft says regarding Vista's security etc. Which is why I'm not moving to Vista.. ever. I'm not going to install an OS that forces me to do things a certain way.

Pizza Express
Posted - 2007.06.27 11:23:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Apertotes
why CCP? i have three different EVE accounts, and thus, i use 3 different EVE folders with 3 different installations so that i do not have to share settings between different accounts.

now, thanks to your great idea of putting everything on the "My documents settings" my EVE accounts and settings are a complete mess.

so, i tried browsing the forums, and i found the Holy Grial of "/end /LUA:OFF" or however its spelled, i pasted the magic words into my EVE shortcuts, re-moved all my stuff to the previus place (from where they should have never got out), deleted the new and horrendous EVE folder on "My documents" and started eve again.

well, it sucks!!!!! 5 seconds later, there was a new EVE folder on "My documents".

so, CCP, how can we, the few XP users you still have as costumers, get back our old functionality?



...esto debería decidirlo una comisión... Cool
A mí me funciona correctamente.

ENG:
This issue must be decided through a comission
It's working fine in my comp.

Jon Draconus
Imperial Munitions
Posted - 2007.06.27 12:07:00 - [90]
 

Here is a simple fix to the multi account problem.

Only have one. Yeah I know blasphemy from the power gamers, but I've seen corps with 50 members and they are all alts.

Think maybe its better to have more friends then accounts.

Flame On. Cool


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