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blankseplocked Standings: Stealth Nerf or Bug? GM Response Requested
 
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Taoism
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:05:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Taoism on 22/06/2007 19:04:35
Originally by: Srvin Taisorgky
Quote:

The bad news is that we will unfortunately not be able to retroactively correct any standings following the fix, as our programmers tell us this is not possible for technical reasons. While unfortunate, we hope that our players will meet this news with the stoic composure and relaxed acceptance we have come to expect from them in the past.



How about just compensation, say an autographed picture of Miss Iceland 2005 for the mission runners only? Miss Iceland

Would give us all "stoic composure and relaxed acceptance."

Very Happy





lmfao.....nice pic....miss iceland appears to be quite cross-eyed. a programmer in her spare time maybe?

Fastercart
Gallente
Ornery Cantankerous Curmudgeons
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:15:00 - [332]
 

Edited by: Fastercart on 22/06/2007 19:14:42
Originally by: Smakko
Lawl, is this some jedi mind trick?

These aren't the Standings we're looking for... Move along.

Michael Caldar
DangerZone Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:15:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Jane Shroud
Originally by: Michael Caldar
Originally by: Occara

it really sucks for me since I am .15 from being able to use a decent agent, but can't play right after the downtimes in order to get that last 0.15


this.
is.
getting.
old.
Hop in an indy - run a few courier missions - you'll be there in no time. As for combats still not fixed - bummer ugh. Wasn't going to complete this AE anyway - too many ATBs dropping Cool, now there's no point...


Won't work. Couriers are now broken too, and even immediately after downtime mine were giving less than 1/3 the standings they did yesterday.
Dunno mate - everything works fine from where I'm sitting (courier missions that is). Including storylines (both combat and courier) Cool

Killshot DeathBunny
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:19:00 - [334]
 

By the looks of this, it's tied directly to the "Me and my gang" split function.

You cannot turn in Courrier missions as a gang, and storyline missions probably do the same thing.

Traak
CompleXion Industries
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:41:00 - [335]
 

Fix being deployed tomorrow:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1494&tid=1

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:42:00 - [336]
 

No sheath, Shyerlock ?
It was as obvious as daylight what the cause of the bug was, when courier and storylines got you ok standings.
As for "technical reasons" that they can't retroactively reimburse standings... I suppose "being too freaking lazy to even bother trying" is a technical reason. It wouldn't have had to be exact standings "reimbursements", approximate values would have been just fine too. And a bit extra for our trouble, for instance.

Oh well, at least they plan on fixing it... sadly, as they said, yeah... we whine about it, but eventually we "will meet this news with the stoic composure and relaxed acceptance" we always have.
Complaining about it is just a part of that Twisted Evil

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:49:00 - [337]
 


Not fixed. I just got this myself when doing some level 1 missions for another faction to see their lp shop stuff.

Six missions, 2 of which gave 0.0%, 4 gave 0.0001%. At that rate, it will take a very long time to get to level 2 missions. Laughing

JeanClaude DuSoir
Anqara Expeditions
The OSS
Posted - 2007.06.22 19:57:00 - [338]
 

Originally from: http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1494&tid=1

"""
Greetings dear player,

As you may have experienced, we have been dealing with a bug after the Revelations II launch causing no standings to be conferred upon players following missions. The cause has been found and a fix made which will be deployed during downtime tomorrow, the 23rd of June.

The bad news is that we will unfortunately not be able to retroactively correct any standings following the fix, as our programmers tell us this is not possible for technical reasons. While unfortunate, we hope that our players will meet this news with the stoic composure and relaxed acceptance we have come to expect from them in the past.

Best Regards - The EVE Online Team
"""

Where are those players? I haven't seen them. Smile

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.22 20:25:00 - [339]
 

To me, it seemed like the perfect time to do some courier missions I never liked to do anyway for research corps... I mean, come to mama, mecheng datacores Twisted Evil
And the storyline faction gains aren't bad either.

It's just NORMAL kill missions that are borked.
And supposedly to be fixed after the longer Saturday downtime (due to "new hardware being added").

Khonsu
Posted - 2007.06.22 21:02:00 - [340]
 

At least we get the full standing HIT when failing a mission Rolling Eyes

DeathComesToUsAll
Posted - 2007.06.23 04:39:00 - [341]
 

Yeah a code can be written... that much is certain... do they want to? Who knows... can they do it? Yes? Would it cause another problem? PROBABLY! IMHO its NOT worth the risk. The only downside to this bug is that the eve community has lost at least 7 new players that I know of, 3 of which I referred. I feel for the new people that are on their trial and were expecting soo much more than this and wound up just leaving instead of dealing with it.

To CCP: I have said it in about 13 different bug repors/petitions,YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE CAPSULEERS INFORMED OF ANY BUG IN THE GAME... ESPECIALLY ONE OF THIS MAGNITUDE!I personally contemplated leaving EvE and going back to WoW just for the GREAT customer support, friendly GMs, and above average communication skills of the "powers that be" over there. Your total lack of easy to find public communication referencing a MAJOR bug of this nature WILL NOT be tolerated repeatedly. Sure some will stay because they LOVE the game, but you WILL lose people. I am in a position where I will not tell people not to join EvE, I will however let them know ahead of time that the communication sucks and you guys leave us in the dark about whetever it is that does not make you look good. I call it as I see it... sorry, using your petition rating system, EVE customer support gets a 20 IMHO.

To the players: Please realize that there are several possibilities for this to have gotten this far out of hand...

1: They knew about it and did not have the nuts to let us know it was bugged, hid in their proverbial "corners" until they had a solution to shut us all up.

2: The simply do not have enough people to test and fix stuff like this cause the owners of CCP are too busy sucking it all up and driving their, generally worthless, waste of money, Mercedes to actually pay for more people to handle stuff like this.

3: They just don't give a flying $*@& about us.

4: They could not figure it out, and instead of having to say that they were too slow to figure it out, they simply ignored us or sent us on a wild goose chase having us run more missions so this would spawn new mission codes in the database and they could use THOSE to track down some kind of fix.

BTW, for those of you that have not seen it, there is/was a nifty issue where when you would get jammed by an enemy npc, their jamming bar would literally appear on top of the percentages readout for the shields, armor, and structure display! HOW does something as simple as that escape the quality control? Beats the hell out of me!

Any way you slice it, the GMs here need a serious reality check... WE keep them in jobs. WE keep CCP running. We DEMAND communication when something like this happens again. If we want to change how they operate, the only way is to let them know EXACTLY how we feel about it and we all need to stand up and DO something. File petitions constantly, call em if you can, write letters and make em sign for the letter so you KNOW they got it. Simply, bug them till the listen. Do not just settle down once the damn problem is fixed. Remember, the problem was not the bug, it was their total ignorance to our cries and pleas for SOME kind of stickied post in which they would update us with.

Lexiana Del'Amore
Gallente
Nouvelle Rouvenor
Posted - 2007.06.23 05:23:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: DeathComesToUsAll
Yeah a code can be written... that much is certain... do they want to? Who knows... can they do it? Yes? Would it cause another problem? PROBABLY! IMHO its NOT worth the risk. The only downside to this bug is that the eve community has lost at least 7 new players that I know of, 3 of which I referred. I feel for the new people that are on their trial and were expecting soo much more than this and wound up just leaving instead of dealing with it.

To CCP: I have said it in about 13 different bug repors/petitions,YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE CAPSULEERS INFORMED OF ANY BUG IN THE GAME... ESPECIALLY ONE OF THIS MAGNITUDE!I personally contemplated leaving EvE and going back to WoW just for the GREAT customer support, friendly GMs, and above average communication skills of the "powers that be" over there. Your total lack of easy to find public communication referencing a MAJOR bug of this nature WILL NOT be tolerated repeatedly. Sure some will stay because they LOVE the game, but you WILL lose people. I am in a position where I will not tell people not to join EvE, I will however let them know ahead of time that the communication sucks and you guys leave us in the dark about whetever it is that does not make you look good. I call it as I see it... sorry, using your petition rating system, EVE customer support gets a 20 IMHO.

To the players: Please realize that there are several possibilities for this to have gotten this far out of hand...

1: They knew about it and did not have the nuts to let us know it was bugged, hid in their proverbial "corners" until they had a solution to shut us all up.

2: The simply do not have enough people to test and fix stuff like this cause the owners of CCP are too busy sucking it all up and driving their, generally worthless, waste of money, Mercedes to actually pay for more people to handle stuff like this.

3: They just don't give a flying $*@& about us.

4: They could not figure it out, and instead of having to say that they were too slow to figure it out, they simply ignored us or sent us on a wild goose chase having us run more missions so this would spawn new mission codes in the database and they could use THOSE to track down some kind of fix.

BTW, for those of you that have not seen it, there is/was a nifty issue where when you would get jammed by an enemy npc, their jamming bar would literally appear on top of the percentages readout for the shields, armor, and structure display! HOW does something as simple as that escape the quality control? Beats the hell out of me!

Any way you slice it, the GMs here need a serious reality check... WE keep them in jobs. WE keep CCP running. We DEMAND communication when something like this happens again. If we want to change how they operate, the only way is to let them know EXACTLY how we feel about it and we all need to stand up and DO something. File petitions constantly, call em if you can, write letters and make em sign for the letter so you KNOW they got it. Simply, bug them till the listen. Do not just settle down once the damn problem is fixed. Remember, the problem was not the bug, it was their total ignorance to our cries and pleas for SOME kind of stickied post in which they would update us with.


I think you are the one who needs a reality check here, CCP did a fantastic job in Getting Rev II up before it was expected. There where and always will be bugs that come with patches of this magnitude.

CCP unlike almost all other MMO's do NOT charge you and me for this continuous extra content. From this patch going live on the 20th to it being fixed later on today the 23rd is a very short time indeed.


DeathComesToUsAll
Posted - 2007.06.23 05:43:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Lexiana Del'Amore

I think you are the one who needs a reality check here, CCP did a fantastic job in Getting Rev II up before it was expected. There where and always will be bugs that come with patches of this magnitude.

CCP unlike almost all other MMO's do NOT charge you and me for this continuous extra content. From this patch going live on the 20th to it being fixed later on today the 23rd is a very short time indeed.




I do not know what jabs at me solves, if you read the last few lines of my post, I am not irritated that there was a bug... there always is, and there always will be. I can deal with that. What I expect is better communication from them. They just let people figure it out on their own... IF they figured it out. There is probably some poor kid out there still running missions and has no idea. And who cares if they got it out early? They probably released it early for some kind of marketing scheme. Or perhaps they felt obligated to release it since it they had announced the release at the fanfest. Who knows. I personally would prefer the release have been held back if it meant not having to listen to people like you make jabs at people that are genuinely upset and have a right to be upset. So before you turn the light on me, make sure you know how to read AND comprehend what was said in the post you are quoting. Wise man once said, "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Sorry man.. you opened your mouth a lil too soon.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.23 06:20:00 - [344]
 

DeathComesToUsAll, while I concur with you about the insufficent communication, and I feel that CCP should have done a general annuncemebt after the bug was first signaled, there are some point I want to make about both the bug of wich you speak:

1) standing bug: I will bet some million isk that the problem was linked to the auto adjusting rewards system, who was adjusting the standing too, without a minimun level of reward. So doing, 1 or 2 or even 10 times a single missions hadn't a noticeable effect. Only when revelation II came live on tranquility the missions started to be run hundred if not thousand of times every day and the rewards started to plummet.

I will point to the fact that courier missions and storyline missions were less affected than regular missions. They are run less, so the "adjustment" was felt less. For the same reason some of the less liked combat mission had better standing gang (even if still lower than normal) than the more liked.

2)
Quote:
BTW, for those of you that have not seen it, there is/was a nifty issue where when you would get jammed by an enemy npc, their jamming bar would literally appear on top of the percentages readout for the shields, armor, and structure display! HOW does something as simple as that escape the quality control? Beats the hell out of me!


This is even easyer to guess: QA is using large screens, while a good number of players is still using screens that require low resolution. To do a good work in QA some of the people doing that should use obsolete machnes, but probably the aren't.

For the screens is self explanatory why they are using the latest models, the health regulations about work conditions. As the more recent screens are easyer to the sight it is clear that they are preferred for use for people working long shifts at the computer.

So both the problems have slipped QA with eas, the first because it was not detectable by a small number of testers, the second because of the machines.

Were CCP as erred is in the comunication departement. as the standing bug was a major bug and should have signaled immediatly. If they needed more data they could have asked people to run the mission the same, giving some small incentive to people doing them (even a simple thank you will have ben sufficent for a good number of players).

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2007.06.23 06:27:00 - [345]
 

Quote:
The only downside to this bug is that the eve community has lost at least 7 new players that I know of, 3 of which I referred


What?

I dunno about anyone else, but I played the game for a month before I even realised what standings were :/ If they left because of a bug which has only been around 4-5 days, and which rose to the forums pretty quickly, and which CCP made a move to act on reasonably quickly (compared to other bugs) then they aren't really cut out for eve.

To be honest, this bug is a bit of a **** in the river as far as inconveniences are concerned.

Kachote
Posted - 2007.06.23 06:54:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Kachote on 23/06/2007 06:54:04
While i DO agree that CCP lacked communication in this matter, I seriously don't understand people that claim they might leave if an official response was not forthcoming. If they had said that no bug existed... ok. But they didn't. They just did not take the initiative of simply saying "we're looking into this bug immediately/soon and will fix it as soon as we know what the source is", something they should have done, but not something we can't live without.

This reminds me of the "customer is always right" attitude. I mean no offense, but people that claim they will leave are probably the kind of people that use that phrase as much as they can. I've worked in multiple customer service departments and that "law" is not true. Just something people imagine they are entitled to.

So please calm down and think things through before making such claims. Otherwise, you just look like a baby throwing a tantrum because mommy isn't quick enough to give you your pacifier.

No offense, seriously.

P.S: To those that got angry at doing missions without knowing this, i share that as i got very annoyed when i saw this. But hey, I'll live. We all will.

Peace mateys



Stupid alt taking control of my post grrrr.

This was brought to you by Vorjak Ogreblood.

Rafein
Posted - 2007.06.23 07:17:00 - [347]
 

patch has been up for 3 days. It tkaes time to go throuhg all the code, verify the bug, and fix it.

Harry Karri
Posted - 2007.06.23 08:27:00 - [348]
 

The point about being kept informed is a valid one. How hard is it to post a few lines saying something like "There is a bug and we are working hard to fix it. Your patience and understanding would be greatly appreciated" ?

Smakko
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.23 08:47:00 - [349]
 

CCP was not upfront on this. They attempted to hotfix the server due to this bug, but did not respond to petitions, nor did they post anything to the News page till the next day, when they admitted that the hotfix had not worked and that they still needed more time to roll out a fix. They really dropped the ball on this one.

It's like if I was playing one of those other MMOs and suddenly my character stopped gaining xp. While my skills are still training, I'm locked into the same content, unable to advance. And don't get me started on how crappy low end content in this game is. But my main issue is not that CCP broke something, but that their fix is half-assed. I feel like they should explain why they're not going to attempt to fix things retroactively, because I don't buy the "it's impossible to retroactively fix" line at all.

El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
Posted - 2007.06.23 09:12:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Smakko
I feel like they should explain why they're not going to attempt to fix things retroactively, because I don't buy the "it's impossible to retroactively fix" line at all.
That is what bugs me too.

We know they use an SQL databse. We can see transaction logs of every individual gain. Filtering those out of files takes too much processing time, disc access is slow, whatever storage solution you use. Recalculating them every time takes too much processing time too.

So, we end up with a summary field for the standing for each player, and most likely multiple tables for the individual gains, with a triggered stored procedure that updates the summary on modification. These transaction tables can be altered and the stored procedures update them, or the standings reimbursement petition category is useless.

So from an outside POV, they counted the entries with very low standing gains since rev2 deployment and figured it would tie up their support crew for a week to fix this, as too many people ran missions as they didn't know about it. An automatically applied scripted fix may have a too big margin of error, no doubt there.

It may be economic suicide, yes, but not technically impossible. And the big numbers of standing gains that need to be readjusted, that is a hole they dug themselves when they didn't issue a warning. I know I feel lied to right now, and I guess everyone who has ever worked with an SQL database does too, when he reads it is "technically impossible" to edit a value in a database.

Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:52:00 - [351]
 

ho do you find how much standing increase each mission gives ? (like one of the tables I saw in here?)
ty

St Elsewhere
Posted - 2007.06.23 12:31:00 - [352]
 

Hmm, i just did a level 3 after downtime and i didnt get any increase at all :(

Squirrly Miner
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:20:00 - [353]
 

Just been doing the cashflow for capsuleers missions on a new alt, got no standings gains above 0.001%. So, not fixed then.

Zasses
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:21:00 - [354]
 

Be nice if there was info from the GM's on the patch if it went well or if its borked.

Alis Aquilae
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:25:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
The only downside to this bug is that the eve community has lost at least 7 new players that I know of, 3 of which I referred


What?

I dunno about anyone else, but I played the game for a month before I even realised what standings were :/ If they left because of a bug which has only been around 4-5 days, and which rose to the forums pretty quickly, and which CCP made a move to act on reasonably quickly (compared to other bugs) then they aren't really cut out for eve.

To be honest, this bug is a bit of a **** in the river as far as inconveniences are concerned.


It's pretty obvious as a new player when your trying to get to level 2 missions (without connections trained), that it is going to take quite a while with the 0.0 gains..

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:47:00 - [356]
 

Fixed i think*

Linkage

An important is lined up next, ill check that out.

thesirrent
Posted - 2007.06.23 14:46:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Galk
Fixed i think*

Linkage

An important is lined up next, ill check that out.


Not working for me :d

Screenshot / Imageshack.us

Zo5o
The Scope
Posted - 2007.06.23 15:05:00 - [358]
 

It is fixed for me. I just ran Right Hand of Zazzmatazz twice in a row after DT, and got a 3.6something% increase both times.

Ryas Nia
Minmatar
Veto.
Posted - 2007.06.23 15:33:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: thesirrent
Originally by: Galk
Fixed i think*

Linkage

An important is lined up next, ill check that out.


Not working for me :d

Screenshot / Imageshack.us


Thats because your standings were never broken. It looks like lvl1's where your doing them were fine, the pre-fix and post-fix values are the same suggesting your getting the correct standings improvement.

thesirrent
Posted - 2007.06.23 15:37:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Ryas Nia
Originally by: thesirrent
Originally by: Galk
Fixed i think*

Linkage

An important is lined up next, ill check that out.


Not working for me :d

Screenshot / Imageshack.us


Thats because your standings were never broken. It looks like lvl1's where your doing them were fine, the pre-fix and post-fix values are the same suggesting your getting the correct standings improvement.

I've just made some encounters, same story. +0.05%; Everything was fine until Rev.II;


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