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Gojyu
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.14 04:45:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Gojyu on 14/06/2007 04:46:20
Hi guys, I've been playing eve for about a month now, and the community sems pretty standard as far as mmogs go. You've got your griefers, your scammers, your nice guys etc etc. One thing that continues to puzzle me, and for the life of me I can't understand is the community's treatment of WoW gamers. To better understand the position I see this from, I played wow since release till about a month after bc was released. I was a raider (For those who haven't played wow, I can't think of an eve-related playstyle, for those who know what I'm talking about, naxx). Now, when wow is brought up in the forums or in game, I've seen two main stereotypes.

1) WoW is a game for casuals, you can play for 10 minutes a day and be the most powerful character around.
2) All WoW players are immature, carebears and/or casuals demanding that they be able to reach the heights of the game playing 5 minutes a day


Now, as a raider, you can see that number 1 confuses me. 2 I can actually see a little more reasoning behind, as since WoW has become so popular, it has attracted a demographic that traditionally isn't interested in mmog's (younger players and casual players). But the core question I'm asking the community is why WoW? Why is the vitriol of the eve community directed at this game uniquely? Why not city of heroes, lotro or guild wars? I'm asking this as an honest question, why does the eve community react so harshly to those that played WoW (even going so far as to abuse players in local, which was one of my earliest experiences with the community). Is it simply tall poppy syndrome? Is it a case of a lack of knowledge concerning the game (which I believe is the chief source of stereotype 1) or is there some earlier conflict in the eve community to blame (lots of people suggesting wow will kill eve when it was in development). I'm actually curious as to what the cause of this is, as I've never seen a persistant aggression towards other gamers in any other mmorpg that I've played.

Yurii Chan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.06.14 05:04:00 - [2]
 

i think of it more as hypervisibility - WoW is everywhere thus its easy to make fun of.

Jon Engel
Intaki Security and Intelligence
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2007.06.14 05:16:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Jon Engel on 14/06/2007 05:17:03
Cause there isnt realy as much penalty for dieing in WoW as in EVE. We risk our virtual assets a hell of a lot more than any other MMO group.

Kit a faction ship with faction mods and lose it and tell me WoW has hardcore PVPers.

Im a to each his own kinda guy. WoW may be fun for some, but I couldnt get past the trial. It just bored me with the grinding and the fact that you have to use a freaking Credit Card for the free trial.

meh, I could rant on Blizzard for a while, but ill save it for Sony who nerfed my ps3 after I blew almost a weeks wages on the damned thing.

The animosity comes from a game where the makers are removed from the playerbase. Overdone game mechanics that we see in every other MMO, and a lack of depth and let's face it, Orcs, elves and Eskimos in MMos have been done for too long.

Yurii Chan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.06.14 05:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jon Engel
Edited by: Jon Engel on 14/06/2007 05:17:03
Cause there isnt realy as much penalty for dieing in WoW as in EVE. We risk our virtual assets a hell of a lot more than any other MMO group.

Kit a faction ship with faction mods and lose it and tell me WoW has hardcore PVPers.

Im a to each his own kinda guy. WoW may be fun for some, but I couldnt get past the trial. It just bored me with the grinding and the fact that you have to use a freaking Credit Card for the free trial.

meh, I could rant on Blizzard for a while, but ill save it for Sony who nerfed my ps3 after I blew almost a weeks wages on the damned thing.

The animosity comes from a game where the makers are removed from the playerbase. Overdone game mechanics that we see in every other MMO, and a lack of depth and let's face it, Orcs, elves and Eskimos in MMos have been done for too long.


what i missed? how'd sony nerf the ps3? aside from lack of good game support and putting all dev. companies on minmatar mode (or is it Amarr mode now - hard mode)

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.14 05:35:00 - [5]
 

The reason people don't like WoW is because it represents everything that EVE isn't:

a) Zero risk
b) Players cannot affect the game world
c) PvE is the primary focus of the game, and PvP sucks

There's a lot more, but those three are the main reasons.

The other big reason is because a very large portion of EVE players are former WoW players.

Vari
Carbide Industries
Posted - 2007.06.14 06:08:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Vari on 14/06/2007 06:18:25

Chess and may other good games: Easy to learn, hard to master.

I champion the 'stereotype' that:

WoW has a low barrier of entry (it's 'easy to play') so it attracts plenty of lower-skilled, immature and inexperienced gamers. Working with people on a level of skill and maturity lower than you can be frustrating. But that's not the real problem.

THE problem with WoW is that the game doesn't cater to the higher-skilled, mature and experienced gamer (if it did, it would be 'hard to master'). No, no current offering of WoW tests the skills of players, but only the amount of time they invest. In order to excel into the highest ranks of PvP and PvE you need the best equipment. That means doing the some of the hardest dungeons in the game over and over and over and over with 10-40 other people until you have the absolute rarest items. This is true even in the Arenas, nobody with just a few hours a day can ever dream of being near the top.

This may be fine to the casual player (EvE players are only casual in the amount of time they invest, it still takes intelligence, skill, experience, leadership ability, decision making, planning and persistence against failure to play this game), but when it comes to EvE and it's community, we frown on games that reward those with time, not with brains. WoW feels to us like a credit card that gives frequent flyer miles for dollars spent instead of the arcades and the ticket system with the skee ball machines and the basketball hoops. If you're like me and you can stop the light between those neon arches after a few tries, you get rewarded for something other people can't do.

And when you see those players who are obviously lacking in mental faculties but have time who are being rewarded more than those with obvious skill but less time, you begin to think it's less a game and more a 'pay us 15 dollars a month and we'll make you happy' form of entertainment.

But that's really okay, some people don't like to be challenged in their lives, it's how TV caught on, your brain on average is less active watching TV than it is asleep.

EvE players however do like to be challenged, and do like to think and use their brains. And that is why we tend to laugh at those who think WoW is a real game in the purest traditional sense. It's not, it's just a money-making construct like almost all casino machines.

Hail CCP for keeping it real and not selling their souls.

WoW = MMORPMMM (Massivly multiplayer online roleplaying money making machine)


Tarquin Tarquinius
Gallente
Escorts of Eve
Posted - 2007.06.14 06:12:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Tarquin Tarquinius on 14/06/2007 06:31:26

WoW is simply the most popular and most pervasive in our culture. Its the one mmo that almost every serious gamer has tried.

I also think it has to do with the fact that people like picking on nerds. Since most of the EVE players have are themselves Sci-Fi reading, Star Trek watching, Star Wars loving type nerds, they have to find a lesser form of nerd to pick on. The D&D playing, Lovecraft reading, LARPing type nerds are really the only choice. See its Sci-Fi vs. Fantasy. Sci-Fi is the "cooler" form of nerd. (in this case "cooler" just means less nerdy)

<--former WoW player btw. This post is totally not e-serious.

As for the maturity of the player base, the vast majority of the people I met in the game were perfectly respectable...but the only one I remember is the orc who kept using racial epitaphs and stereotypes as insults and implied that I liked ****ing cows and horses simply because I'm from Texas. When I responded to his "...only steers and queers come from Texas" comment with a "Well, I am a Tauren" he didn't get it. Idiot didn't know what a steer was. (note: not knowing what a steer was isn't what made him an idiot)

Gojyu
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.14 06:21:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Gojyu on 14/06/2007 06:21:23
To respond to vari. I see your point, however, my question to that is what, exactly makes eve require more "skill" to succeed in? From a new player's standpoint, I see a game where it is perfectly possible to end up flying a titan logging on far less than 5 minutes a day, and one where blob warfare is the norm for end-game pvp. I also see a game where a more skilled player can not possibly advance through the game faster than a less-skilled player. I suppose you could say I don't understand how you could call eve a more skill-intensive game than wow. Steeper learning curve I'll admit, but skill-based I can't see.

Vari
Carbide Industries
Posted - 2007.06.14 06:40:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Vari on 14/06/2007 06:55:19
Originally by: Gojyu
what, exactly makes eve require more "skill" to succeed in? From a new player's standpoint, I see a game where it is perfectly possible to end up flying a titan logging on far less than 5 minutes a day, and one where blob warfare is the norm for end-game pvp. I suppose you could say I don't understand how you could call eve a more skill-intensive game than wow. Steeper learning curve I'll admit, but skill-based I can't see
BoB for example. Their military strength comes from real discipline, player skill and tons of PvP experience. If you haven't, watch the latest alliance tournament on EveTV. BoB's strategist is pretty dang smart from what I can tell. But it takes a few months of the EVE to understand what's going on in those tournaments. When PvP battles aren't heavily skewed to one side, the game strongly awards those with cunning, quick thinking, experience and skill.

And no, getting into a Titan takes either serious persuasion, or strong leadership or both. Or probably a proven track record in compentently flying a ship. That and of course the dedication and the ability to pilot the ship if needed around the clock. It takes the collective efforts of a major alliance to acquire such an asset.

For alliances, bigger numbers is easier than finding the highest skilled PvPers. So yes, blob warfare (battles based on numbers) is the norm, but the devs are working on it. But then again, there really are many many many things they could work on. This game is FAR from perfectly executed, as opposed to WoW which is a artistic, design and technical wonder.

Gojyu
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.14 06:57:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Gojyu on 14/06/2007 06:58:28
Ah, A good point. I'm not actually trying to argue for and against things in this thread. I'm genuinely curious to see the other side. My titan example came mainly from the fact that you can purchase isk for real cash with ccp's blessing. My line of thought was that in theory, you could pump enough real life cash into this game to actually have an alliance build you a titan. To put an even more extreme point on it: Every man has his price. It is at least theoretically possible to give an alliance such as BoB an amount of isk so vast that you could purchase a pre-existing titan, and this would occur with ccp's blessing.

Quote:

BoB for example. Their military strength comes from real discipline, player skill and tons of PvP experience. If you haven't, watch the latest alliance tournament on EveTV. BoB's strategist is pretty dang smart from what I can tell. But it takes a few months of the EVE to understand what's going on in those tournaments. When PvP battles aren't heavily skewed to one side, the game strongly awards those with cunning, quick thinking, experience and skill.


I understand this, and I figured as much- hell, I can barely imagine the numbers of ships bob has to control effectively to fight their wars. You may wish to look around for some videos of the "vaelstraz" and "4 horsemen" encounters of wow, fights requiring such real discipline, player skill and pve experience that the former can require months for a guild to master (the maximum time the fight can last is 3 minutes) and the latter a fight so difficult that to my knowledge no more than 5 guilds completed it (that's 200 people out of their 8million player base)

MassonA
Caldari
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.06.14 07:03:00 - [11]
 

i do not like WoW because of the common stereotype of the snotty nosed, pre-pubescent 13 year old american boys who are scared of girls, their voice is sqeeky as **** and they are so arrogant and act like such *******s, you know you'd pwn them irl

and yes Very Happy i have met people like that
also probably because of the nature of the game, its all just a grind and the PvP on WoW is utter bull****. whats the point in killing someone when you get nothing / lose nothing?
all the WoW videos ive been shown have been killing monsters, whats exactly interesting about that Neutral

Locus Bey
Gallente
OCA2
Posted - 2007.06.14 07:16:00 - [12]
 

I refuse to play a man running around in tights, that's why I don't play WoW, and why I didn't choose Caldari in EvE Laughing

As to your question, I tend to think EvE players would consider Eve to be much more a strategic and skillful game than WoW. Wow is a game you can complete in about 3-5 mths from what I can see, while EvE is neverending.

Vari
Carbide Industries
Posted - 2007.06.14 07:21:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Vari on 14/06/2007 07:21:52
Originally by: Gojyu
You may wish to look around for some videos of the "vaelstraz" and "4 horsemen" encounters of wow, fights requiring such real discipline, player skill and pve experience that the former can require months for a guild to master (the maximum time the fight can last is 3 minutes) and the latter a fight so difficult that to my knowledge no more than 5 guilds completed it (that's 200 people out of their 8million player base)
I will not deny at all that finishing those truely impossible feats don't take massive amounts of skill. But they also take massive amounts of time. A majority of those players who helped complete it probably are equipped with some of the best items in the game.

But a Titan without an alliance to take advantage of it, nor one to back it up is wasted. If anything, the best solo/group-pvpable ships are around 3-4 billion. Farjung's Wave of Mutilation 2 shows how a no-holds-barred amazing ship combined with good piloting, and some balls can accomplish. His first video is less a highlight of the ship and more of his piloting luck and skill.

CCP's allowing private isk-for-gametime transactions helps sell more game time, pure and simple. GTC sellers help keep players and let them have alts and get money in the process. You would need to sell 500 90-day GTCs @ 320m to make 150 billion. To prevent oversupply which would lower prices you would have to pace yourself.

Miss Anthropy
Perkone
Posted - 2007.06.14 08:28:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Yurii Chan
i think of it more as hypervisibility - WoW is everywhere thus its easy to make fun of.



This is it in a nutshell basically. WoW is actually pretty good at what it does. But humans, being the cynical cronies that we are, like to decry and ridicule the popular; usually not for the sake of pointing out the bad aspects of it, but because we like to try and be unique and not "one of the crowd".

Look at it this way; EVE has far more "character" flaws (read bugs) than WoW. If EVE were as popular as WoW and had a player base similiar to the size of WoW, it would be torn to shreds by the media because of it's bugs, flaws and exploitability (if there is such a word).

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2007.06.14 09:00:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: MassonA

i do not like WoW because of the common stereotype of the snotty nosed, pre-pubescent 13 year old american boys who are scared of girls, their voice is sqeeky as **** and they are so arrogant and act like such *******s, you know you'd pwn them irl


congratulations, you just described half of Eve's population.

Originally by: MassonA

also probably because of the nature of the game, its all just a grind and the PvP on WoW is utter bull****. whats the point in killing someone when you get nothing / lose nothing?
all the WoW videos ive been shown have been killing monsters, whats exactly interesting about that Neutral


everybody goes on about the 'losing stuff' aspect of Eve's PvP, versus the 'grind' of wow. what exactly do you do when you lose a ship? promptly **** off and grind rats until you can afford a new one of course.

and insurance means what you do lose is often a fraction of the ships value + whatever you had on it. eve has just as much grinding as wow, and the whole 'losing stuff forever' bit depends entirely on how much of an idiot you are.

wow's pvp is entirely different to eve's, it's more immediate, more accessible. you can pvp whenever you want and you know there will be opponents. eve's pvp is much slowness punctuated by bursts of intense action when you finally find somebody who you can take on and doesn't run away.

saying wow is **** and eve is ace is just ****ing nonsense, and the mongos who still insist wow is rubbish are deluding themselves. they're both just computer games, they're both entirely different, and it's entirely possible to realise that they're both good at what they do without rushing out to buy yourself a nice wizard's robe to wear to the shops.

personally, i dislike the eve 'community' about as much as i dislike the wow 'community'. there are lots of fun, interesting people, but the vast majority are dull Generic Internet People endlessly churning out the same tired opinions and catch phrases.

Anatolius
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.14 09:48:00 - [16]
 

I tried WoW for about fifteen minutes once.

Whereas when trying EVE, I said, "OH MY GOD I'M MINING ASTEROIDS IN SPACE THIS IS SO COOL!" When trying WoW I said, "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO GO KILL X NUMBER OF CREATURES, I HAVEN'T DONE THIS IN EVERQUEST AND EVERQUEST 2 AND DARK AGE OF CAMELOT. K THX BYE."

EVE players make fun of WoW because WoW don't got no veldspar.

Seriously though, the main reason is, I think, for all the carrying on about how great WoW is, it's just more of the same crap. We've been there. We've done that. EVE isn't. EVE is different.

Mainstream people who've been suckered into playing WoW by their friends and co-workers; the ones for whom WoW is the best thing evar(tm) simply because it's their first crack at an MMOG, they get annoying after awhile. When you see stuff like, "LOL TEN BILLION SUBSCRIBERS!" you can't help but roll your eyes - because at the end of the day, if you have to kill one more (insert random expletive) sarnak in the overthere.. Err, I mean, orc in.. err, Azeroth or whatever, you know you're going to slit your wrists. Billions and billions can be wrong; McDonald's sucks arse compared to a nice medallion of filet mignon, after all.

In short, your average non-macro EVE player is tired of killing giant insects and fuzzy animals to get the level and win the game. Also, we like making people cry by blowing up their expensive ships, which you can't do in WoW. Also, in a fight between WoW and EVE, we have lasers. Yeah, let's see what you do with those dinky little swords, Sir Floofypantaloons. LASERS, BABY.



MassonA
Caldari
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.06.14 10:06:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: ry ry
saying wow is **** and eve is ace is just ****ing nonsense, and the mongos who still insist wow is rubbish are deluding themselves. they're both just computer games, they're both entirely different, and it's entirely possible to realise that they're both good at what they do without rushing out to buy yourself a nice wizard's robe to wear to the shops.


yeah thats true, but i think that WoW as a game, is just a grind, and i just cant be bothered to spend a good portion of my day stabbing evil killer sheep for some guy who could clearly do it himself. but then again i just described a mission Very Happy

Originally by: Anatolius
Whereas when trying EVE, I said, "OH MY GOD I'M MINING ASTEROIDS IN SPACE THIS IS SO COOL!" When trying WoW I said, "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO GO KILL X NUMBER OF CREATURES, I HAVEN'T DONE THIS IN EVERQUEST AND EVERQUEST 2 AND DARK AGE OF CAMELOT. K THX BYE."


and lol Laughing

Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2007.06.14 11:16:00 - [18]
 

I could go on for pages about why I don't like WOW if I had the time. My main quam is time. There are so many people that treat the game like a job and that's just ridiculously sad, but it's the game that encourages it.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.14 11:43:00 - [19]
 

WoW isn't an awful game. Its just shallow as a puddle.

In WoW, you kill 500 creatures and get 20 gold and a level up. Then you repeat. Then you repeat some more. If you ever get round to PvP, its all much the same, only the creatures are now players and the gold is now honour points. You never risk anything, you never make an impact, and you never do anything that hasn't been done a thousand times before by a thousand other players. It might as well be Neverwinter Nights- at least that game's online content was free Rolling Eyes

Thats not to say the actual individual aspects of WoW aren't the equal of any other RPG out there. I just don't particularly want to pay a monthly subscription to play what is essentially a pretty bog standard swords n' sorcery RPG, just for the privilege of having a chat engine attached.


EVE is... different. EVE's PvP gives you real thrills. EVE's political landscape is governed solely and exclusively by the achievements of the players. EVE's skilling is free form, and not attached to a grind.

And once you've played EVE, it's hard not to make fun of the competition Razz


 

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