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blankseplocked Make Ore theft harder
 
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Jonas Vinthyn
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.19 17:14:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
1) Un-anchor ALL current secure containers which are located on the same grid as other celestial objects. In other words, our SS cans will be safe. But, the ones that have been anchored by the gates, belts, moons, planets, stations, DS Complexes, etc. will be unanchored.
2) Give GSC a life-span. Cans in 0.0 would last 48 days, unless renewed by any user - with entering password and opening the can. Cans in Empire will last 7 Days, unless renewed by any user - with entering password and opening the can.


Not so sure on the other points but the above two are excellent suggestions. They wiped out all bookmarks on the grids so you know its technically feasible to have the same algorithm for cans. Plus it would reduce lag having less things floating all over and as a nice bonus would wipe out all the annoying advertising cans.

-Jonas

Nicoli Malthus
Caldari
Tangential Endeavors
Posted - 2007.06.19 19:07:00 - [62]
 

Oh, and more food for thought for that other guy, here is what my fiance said on this stituation, as she feels strongly against it too!

"I agree that macro miners shouldnít be protected, something need to be done to prevent that causes it unbalance the game. It is not right that most of us spend the time and solo mine while macro miners have it done for them. But at the same time real solo miners need protecting. In smaller corps we donít always have the luxury of having another corp. person on to mine with or they are running missions and canít help. I have a hard enough time fending of pirates the game has in belts it is impossible for me to handle a professional pirate.

And I like the idea of having a skill for thieving. Think about it anyone can steal but you donít always steal from just anyone, a good thief has the right tools and skills to not get caught and come away with a big pay off. And the more you do it the better you get, but also in response to thieves a person can and does take steps to try to prevent if not deter thieves from stealing from them. But even the most secure of places can still have some one come along and steal might be rarer and harder but it happens. Even if high sec. had more security if a thief is good enough he should still be able to steal from whoever is vulnerable enough.

And regular players whom mine donít like those macro miners just as much as the pirates and they deserve to be stolen from.

Yes anyone can be a pirate and steal, just like anyone can mine but to mine efficiently and productively we have to learn skills, why not implement the same for those who steal? Make them learn skills to become really good at and get away with stealing without ever letting the person your stealing from know? "

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.19 20:44:00 - [63]
 

Quote:
I have every right to grief about this, if it was your way the whole game would be low sec. or no security at all and i'm sorry, but there should always be some security in everygame, weather it's a home base or star system!


It has been stated countless times (and in this thread no less) that you should not be safe anywhere in the universe. The only exception here is the tutorial "dungeon" that is being implemented in the next patch. This point therefore, is moot.

Quote:
You are the exact type of person i have a problem with, you seem to think its your RIGHT to cause my problems and trouble and ruin my day, sorry pal but thats not how real life works.


You're showing your (lack of) experience here. Life's a ****, and then you die. Noone said it was meant to be "nice".

Quote:
I put up with enough jackass's like you in school, and i will not tolerate putting up with this crap on something that i am PAYING for! I'm on here to have fun, and not get into conflicts i know i can't win, because if that was the case, there would only be two priate corps in game, forget all the races, eventually there would only be two left and they would constantly be at war!


You're starting to lose any coherence to your argument. Oh, and you appear to be foaming at the mouth...

Quote:
If you want to can steal fine, go do it in low sec, but you have no right to do it in high sec, thats why it's there!


Actually, that's false. Highsec is there to stop pansies like yourself from being hunted into extinction.

Quote:
And no i'm not trying to spoil his day, he shouldn't even be able to do that in the first place, can we say EXPLOIT jackass!!


Nope, not an exploit. Do your homework "jackass".

Quote:
Then we really should have my way here, fine you can can steal all you want, but guess what, i can fire back at you, and you can't return fire because if you do, then concord will interfere as you BROKE the law in the first place, so your in the wrong!


A-ha, you're finally starting to make some sense. Of all the drivel you've posted, this is the only part to which there is any validity: An ore thief should not get kill rights when fired upon by their victim.

Quote:
The only reason you pick on people in high sec is because you can't handle it in lowsec, and the reason i don't go to lowsec is because i can't handle it either, at least i'm man enough to admit it!


You crack me up. I've spent the vast majority of my time in eve living in nosec space, let alone lowsec. The only reason I ever come to empire space is to take advantage of the market, and to take advantage of people like you.

After all, nothing amuses me more than watching some thirteen year old foam at the mouth over a can of ore. Seriously, get a grip.

Quote:
Oh, and if the game isn't supposed to be such a nice place, then why does ccp want everyone to work together? hmmm yeah you make a whole lot of sense there pal. You are as i stated before, just the typical priate jerk who only wants to ruin other peoples fun, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO SUFFER AT YOUR EXPENSE???


Why do you think you get branded as a carebear? How did the carebears "win"? That's right - by working together. You know the old addage: The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts?

As to why you should suffer, my argument is as valid as the one you proposed as to why you should not - because I said so.

Quote:
Last i checked that was harrasment and punishable by law in real life, so why should i have to deal with it in a virtual world, by that fact alone, it should be illegal for your to can steal in game, since the game is based on real life attributes!


Explain in no less than 30 words; in what way is can flipping harassment? You have yet to state an argument!

I'll skip the post that if petitioned would see you banned from this game, because contrary to your belief I bear you no ill-will. If anything, I pity you...

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.19 20:51:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Nicoli Malthus
I agree that macro miners shouldnít be protected, something need to be done to prevent that causes it unbalance the game. It is not right that most of us spend the time and solo mine while macro miners have it done for them. But at the same time real solo miners need protecting. In smaller corps we donít always have the luxury of having another corp. person on to mine with or they are running missions and canít help. I have a hard enough time fending of pirates the game has in belts it is impossible for me to handle a professional pirate.


I sympathise with her plight, but would suggest she joins a larger operation than she currently is with. Strength in numbers is the key.

Quote:
I like the idea of having a skill for thieving. Think about it anyone can steal but you donít always steal from just anyone, a good thief has the right tools and skills to not get caught and come away with a big pay off. And the more you do it the better you get, but also in response to thieves a person can and does take steps to try to prevent if not deter thieves from stealing from them.


Again the current mechanics allow this: Have a corpie there in a battlecruiser with gang mods. If the thief turns up in a hauler, you won't even need that firepower to send him home in a pod as a T1 barge can carry sufficient drone power to flatten a T1 hauler.

Quote:
But even the most secure of places can still have some one come along and steal might be rarer and harder but it happens. Even if high sec. had more security if a thief is good enough he should still be able to steal from whoever is vulnerable enough.


This is exactly the opposite logic to your own; you are proposing that only the most vulnerable members of our society be prone to this extortion. I could not disagree more! If the most vulnerable are to be "hit", then this game will die - because the most vulnerable players are almost always the youngest.

Quote:
regular players whom mine donít like those macro miners just as much as the pirates and they deserve to be stolen from.


Indeed, but any changes to the current mechanic will protect macro miners and isk farmers - who are arguably the larger problem - as well as genuine miners. In short, it's too open to exploitation.

Quote:
Yes anyone can be a pirate and steal, just like anyone can mine but to mine efficiently and productively we have to learn skills, why not implement the same for those who steal? Make them learn skills to become really good at and get away with stealing without ever letting the person your stealing from know? "


A thief does need many skills to be effective: As stated above, small drones can make a piecemeal of a T1 hauler, so Industrial Ships are a must. Likewise, small drones can rip a T1 frigate apart, so a cruiser is a bare minimum, if not Assault Frigates or something with even more firepower. Of course, one would require a decent T2 setup to go with such ships to ensure a good success rate.

So no, you still haven't even come close to presenting a valid argument.

silken mouth
Gallente
Core Genes Applied Technologies
Posted - 2007.06.19 22:16:00 - [65]
 

Sorry to say that, but if you really wanna tell me that you are using a hauler to steal ore, then i have to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Ore thieves use shuttles to flip the can(s) and wait if they are being fired upon.
If they've been fired upon or the miner warps out they return in a combat ship and blow the miner to pieces.
If the miner does nothing, they come back in a hauler..

Griefers paradise....

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.19 23:25:00 - [66]
 

Quote:
Ore thieves use shuttles to flip the can(s) and wait if they are being fired upon.


No, that would be a simple griefer. An ore thief is interested in your ore, not your aggro and so using a shuttle would be self defeating for the prospective ore thief. Also due to the lack of fitting capabilities, you'd be better off in a frigate than a shuttle as you can fit a MWD, allowing you to make the distance between cans a lot quicker.

Quote:
If they've been fired upon or the miner warps out they return in a combat ship and blow the miner to pieces.
If the miner does nothing, they come back in a hauler..


Why waste time docking to switch ships twice, when once will suffice? Turn up in a combat ships, if no aggro is forthcoming bring out a hauler. Simpler, faster, better.

Next please!

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.19 23:34:00 - [67]
 

Open letter to all angry carebears who will not leave high-sec and believe high-sec should be perfectly safe for them:

Dear Sir/Madam:

Please quit playing EvE.

Regards,

Reggie

Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.21 01:47:00 - [68]
 

Flip the can? shuttles? What a crock.

Head toward the can with a station aligned in front of you. Open the can and remove ore when at full speed as you pass the can then hit warp. Result is instawarp and not even a combat ship protecting the miners can catch you. Dock and wait till the timer expires. Go out again for the next load.

Makes the whole idea of having a buddy flying defence moot since they can't touch you until you actually take the ore but the instawarp makes you invulnerable.

I agree that it is often used to lure noobs into attacking the hauler which then allows the hauler pilot to dock and come back with something more deadly. Most haulers can be fitted for PVP against a barge since griefing is what it's for rather than getting as much as possible in it.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.21 05:51:00 - [69]
 

In order to defend against even a clever ore thief, you need one guy in a Griffin. If he tries to do the quick-warp trick, ram him to mess up his alignment, and make sure he's already locked. You should have three warp scramblers in your medium slots, so no hauler can hope to escape. The fourth medium should be an ECM in case he's in a battle badger. Your high slots should be a tractor beam and two rocket launchers, and you should have a hobgoblin in the drone bay.

A can with a tractor on it can't be accessed by anyone.if they're hanging out near the can, tractor it and put the drone out for free bumpage. You can untractor it briefly while miners deposit ore, and if they try a can flip, just drag your can far away from theirs so they can't move the ore directly.

If he actually tries to grab your ore, he'll either be in a hauler--which can be bumped, then tackled and slowly killed by a Grif set up as I describe here--or he'll be in a combat ship, which will steal all of 200m3 of your ore, since your tactical tractoring has prevented the flip.

If you rub braincells together, you can get ideas. Those ideas can be used to solve problem.

The trick is that you need at least two braincells to do that.

Lothros Andastar
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.21 08:48:00 - [70]
 

Ok im just gonna add my 2 cents here as an uber carebear and miner...

Ore theifing shouldn't be changed, because it technicly shouldnt happen :)
Jetcan mining is an Exploit, its using the game mechanics in a way they wernt meant to be used.

If you dont want people to steal your ore do these things:
1) Use a Secure can (duh)
2) Use T2 drones to kill the thief
3) If your mining in a busy area filled with ore theifing n00bs, bring a friend in a WTFPWNMOBILEOFDOOM. Makes short work of them
or if all else fails
4) Mine in a Harbinger.. no really. IIRC if its settup right it can outmine a retriver. Honestly no n00b is gonna steal from a BC mining :)

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.06.21 08:57:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote:
Ore thieves use shuttles to flip the can(s) and wait if they are being fired upon.


No, that would be a simple griefer. An ore thief is interested in your ore, not your aggro and so using a shuttle would be self defeating for the prospective ore thief. Also due to the lack of fitting capabilities, you'd be better off in a frigate than a shuttle as you can fit a MWD, allowing you to make the distance between cans a lot quicker.

Quote:
If they've been fired upon or the miner warps out they return in a combat ship and blow the miner to pieces.
If the miner does nothing, they come back in a hauler..


Why waste time docking to switch ships twice, when once will suffice? Turn up in a combat ships, if no aggro is forthcoming bring out a hauler. Simpler, faster, better.

Next please!


flip the can in a shuttle have a corp mate in a hauler

maximum loss in a shuttle, then agan you could get a wardec.
or just both be in a noob corp

Shin Mao
Caldari
AFC
Death or Glory
Posted - 2007.06.21 08:59:00 - [72]
 

Maybe add special Mining Secure Jetcan? (5-10k or 15-30k) With 3-4 hours lifespan. cost 100k - 1kk isk.

Empire marketslave
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2007.06.21 09:35:00 - [73]
 

I dont feel like reading the whoe topic so if this has been said already ill just agree and say it again

if you were here before rmr when you couldn't even shoot back at an ore thief that was annoying. i was the victim of Tenaj a very famous ore thief at the time when i was mining in a rifter with my 3 named lasers and a missile launcher that i couldn't even use.

What happened is that all miners whined and whined that they want to be able to shoot the thief and so they did. but little did they know by adding that a pandora's box was opened for the bait and switch, and come back in a battleship and various other ways they make your life miserable.

The only way to "fix" this is to

A. Have a hauler there and ready
B. Find a new system away from Jita in lower sec than .8 sure there are rats but a few drones can take care of them
C. Pray that the new ORE capital is a mining ship

I wont suggest the GSC since that is a stupid idea

Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.24 20:33:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Drizit on 24/06/2007 20:36:44
Originally by: Lothros Andastar
Ok im just gonna add my 2 cents here as an uber carebear and miner...

Ore theifing shouldn't be changed, because it technicly shouldnt happen :)
Jetcan mining is an Exploit, its using the game mechanics in a way they wernt meant to be used.

If you dont want people to steal your ore do these things:
1) Use a Secure can (duh)
2) Use T2 drones to kill the thief
3) If your mining in a busy area filled with ore theifing n00bs, bring a friend in a WTFPWNMOBILEOFDOOM. Makes short work of them
or if all else fails
4) Mine in a Harbinger.. no really. IIRC if its settup right it can outmine a retriver. Honestly no n00b is gonna steal from a BC mining :)


1. You gotta be joking right? GSC can be filled and then some by a hulk in one cycle, even a Covetor can fill a GSC in less than a cycle. Alternatively, have 1 hauler per barge so that they can ferry a quarter of their hold of ore each trip. Also have the barge turn off the lasers again until the can is empty to allow the hauler to keep up. Duh back!

2. So while your expensive T2 drones are trying to harass a ship that can easily tank them, your Hulk or Covetor is being ripped apart by the theifs guns, you obviously have never met a battle Badger. Dead barge = dead drones so they scoop for a nice little bonus on top of the ore they gained. Cool, where is you mine again?Evil or Very Mad

3. About the only useful comment there.

FYI, I have an AVI of one of the devs using instas to the station to instadock and also a jetcan to mine used for a mining demo for ninja mining no less! OK, apart from the fact that a can is a nice indicator to a player rat that you'll be coming back in a frail hauler, (a nice easy kill for them), It shows that jetcan mining was intended and sanctioned by the devs.

A bigger secure can could solve this problem as has been mentioned many times in the past.

Tony Benn
Dawn of War
Posted - 2007.06.24 21:04:00 - [75]
 

Quote:
1 hauler per barge so that they can ferry a quarter of their hold of ore each trip. Also have the barge turn off the lasers again until the can is empty to allow the hauler to keep up.


A fully expanded Iteron V can hold nearly 30k if I remember correctly, and can fit a t2 miner of it's own. It sits in the belt with the barges and can suck a little ore itself whilst the barges (let's assume three of them, retrievers for the sake of argument) all fill a secure can. The moment the ore hits the can, the hauler moves the ore into his hold. When full, the hauler returns. Assuming a 2000 cubic metres yield every three minutes, that's only one hauling trip every fifteen minutes - This is sufficient.

Quote:
A bigger secure can could solve this problem as has been mentioned many times in the past.


As has been said countless times before, no!


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