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Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2007.06.15 07:37:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Akita T
There's a reason why mining vessels (frigates, cruisers and barges) barely have enough cargo space to hold a couple of cycle's worth of ore.

That reason is so that SOLO mining isn't extremely profitable, due to the fact you have to make roundtrips.


So, making missions solo - is just fine.
Ratting alone - why not.
Solo mining - God forbid! How dare you even think about it!

Is that it?

Why do I have to force others to do something they donīt like, just so that I can play?
Most in my corp donīt like mining, they donīt like standing guard either, because itīs boring to them.
Which means that half the time Iīm mining alone, often into a jetcan to achieve some performance.

Or would you suggest that I buy another account? Iīd rather quit eve, than doing that.

IMO, the reason why mining vessels don't have enough cargo is simply because the devs don't care.
The vocal part of the community(probably mostly the griefers) are loud enough to be tended.
The miners, who naturally aren't as aggressive, are rather quiet, and are ignored.

If the devs don't want us to mine, fine - just say so. Just say "Miners are not wanted, go away.".
There are enough players saying so anyway...

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.15 08:18:00 - [32]
 

Quote:
So, making missions solo - is just fine.
Ratting alone - why not.
Solo mining - God forbid! How dare you even think about it!



Don't talk rot. You can mine solo just fine, you're just more efficient in a group because you can afford to use the jetcan technique. This is after all a multiplayer game!

Note that CCP are also bringing in missions that you will not be able to run solo, but will require a gang to complete succesfully. Arguably, this is already the case - and I've said many times in the past that they need to revise the whole rat damage output system so that we don't know what damage type they will put out, and so that ratting setups become a thing of the past. For one thing, it'd make hunting ratters in 0.0 much more difficult, which would only be a good thing.

Quote:
Why do I have to force others to do something they donīt like, just so that I can play?
Most in my corp donīt like mining, they donīt like standing guard either, because itīs boring to them.
Which means that half the time Iīm mining alone, often into a jetcan to achieve some performance.


Then you have two options: The first is find a corp that has the same goals as yourself, or create a second account. Simple, see?

Quote:
Or would you suggest that I buy another account? Iīd rather quit eve, than doing that.


Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2007.06.15 09:05:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Don't talk rot. You can mine solo just fine, you're just more efficient in a group because you can afford to use the jetcan technique. This is after all a multiplayer game!

Your definition of "just fine" is "spending twice as much time flying towards and from the station"?
Because thatīs how it is, currently. I spend more time in warp than looking at the mining laser.

Quote:
Then you have two options: The first is find a corp that has the same goals as yourself, or create a second account. Simple, see?

The problem with that ONE option is that this isnīt really simple.
It's not really easy finding people who like to do EXACTLY the same things you want to do, especially in a game like eve where you should trust only people you know personally.

Even if it were easier, I still fail to see why only miners are forced to go multiplayer, while everyone else(i.e. fighters) can play solo just fine.

A fighter doing a mission alone is perhaps at 80% efficiency.
A miner mining alone is at most at 50% efficiency, and even that is doubtful.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.15 09:21:00 - [34]
 

Quote:
Even if it were easier, I still fail to see why only miners are forced to go multiplayer, while everyone else(i.e. fighters) can play solo just fine.


This point is moot. CCP have been making missions harder (and I believe they should be making rats harder as stated above) and are adding new, even more difficult missions that will require cooperation to complete.

I think that makes it perfectly clear: CCP want you to cooperate and coordinate in whatever you do. Solo gameplay, whilst viable, should be less profitable or else why would anyone work together at all?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.15 12:45:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
I think that makes it perfectly clear: CCP want you to cooperate and coordinate in whatever you do. Solo gameplay, whilst viable, should be less profitable or else why would anyone work together at all?

Bingo ugh

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.06.15 13:24:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Eleana Tomelac on 15/06/2007 13:23:34
Imo, mining is boring, and the only thing you can make is less boring is to talk with your escort and haulers... Look the escort playing the fools around and so on...

Missions in groups are good too, taking noobs to lvl 3 missions, doing lvl 4 with a crapload of frigates sized ships or few cruisers... Well, of challenge isn't what you like, eve is a bad place.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.15 13:49:00 - [37]
 

I agree, co-op is the best reason to play online games. I'm looking forward to taking newbies into level 4s in a dozen frigates. I've got this theory that a Kestrel with four rocket launchers full of Defenders and an afterburner, with a little bit of a tank, can hold off Worlds Collide 4 by orbitting the warp-in beacon at 100km and spamming the defenders to keep the missiles back.

Just need enough guys in Rifters and Condors to beat back the frigs before they catch the Kessie. Worth a shot, and with the new rules for rewards, plus bounties, it'll be worthwhile for everyone.

Torothanax
Posted - 2007.06.15 15:40:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: Akita T
There's a reason why mining vessels (frigates, cruisers and barges) barely have enough cargo space to hold a couple of cycle's worth of ore.

That reason is so that SOLO mining isn't extremely profitable, due to the fact you have to make roundtrips.


So, making missions solo - is just fine.
Ratting alone - why not.
Solo mining - God forbid! How dare you even think about it!

Is that it?

Why do I have to force others to do something they donīt like, just so that I can play?
Most in my corp donīt like mining, they donīt like standing guard either, because itīs boring to them.
Which means that half the time Iīm mining alone, often into a jetcan to achieve some performance.

Or would you suggest that I buy another account? Iīd rather quit eve, than doing that.

IMO, the reason why mining vessels don't have enough cargo is simply because the devs don't care.
The vocal part of the community(probably mostly the griefers) are loud enough to be tended.
The miners, who naturally aren't as aggressive, are rather quiet, and are ignored.

If the devs don't want us to mine, fine - just say so. Just say "Miners are not wanted, go away.".
There are enough players saying so anyway...


^ what he said.

People mine solo all the time anyway. Macro miner anyone? Personally I think one of the biggest problems in the game is people with multiple account. Playing 3 charecter yourself at the same time is not multi player. Most of the "it's a multi player game" arguments out there are moot. The only way to make decent cash mining is to have a hauler/pvp alt. Why don't they add semi controlable npc's I can hire to haul and cover my ass?

I'm also tired of the "jet cans are cheating/GSC are fine" crap. No they aren't. If I were really running a mining op, I'd plunk down a freight container or 9, fill em up, and then haul em to the nearest refinery when they were full. None of this back and forth crap. If I'm minin for cash, every second spent NOT mining is wasted. I'd aslo lock the damn things and call the cops if anyone tried to break in. Parts of the game are ******ed, geared only to support griefing.

Mining is almost pointless anymore. The price of minerals is crap. It's not profitable to pay a combat player to cover your ass. Just go mission and make real cash. That's very soloable. As for rats gettin harder? Tell that to command ship pilots who can rat anything in the game solo in a pvp setup.

CCP needs to just put npc minerals on the market and be done with the whole mining idea for proit. They don't support it anyway.

aaron 619
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.06.15 16:38:00 - [39]
 

all I have to say is




OMG ROFLExclamation

Thank you.

Torothanax
Posted - 2007.06.15 16:57:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Torothanax on 15/06/2007 18:40:09
Originally by: aaron 619
all I have to say is




OMG ROFLExclamation

Thank you.


Care to contribute to the thread Mr. "I live in 0.0, fix Morphite"?

For the record I do mine with my corp. Gang bonuses help a lot, as does a dedicated hauler for several miners. I also jet can mine all day long when there is not a corp op goin on. I just do it in the middle of no where high sec. Griefers don't usually go 14 jumps to mess with one person.

I'm not sayin I want everything I said in my first post. Or that any of it would be all that good for the game. I'm just sayin mining at the moment is very limited, and not really worth doin anymore. Macros have ruied mining more then anything else. One person running (I've seen) 8 exhumers and a hauler for hours on end. Or 3 afk hulks with an afk hauler goin 24/7. Hard to compete with. I've seen them in empire. I've seen them in low sec. I'll wager they run in deep 0.0 as well. Multi player my ass.

The price of minerals makes splitting the yield not very appealing to most players compared to other sources of income. With lvl 10 missions, 2bil per day trade routes (titan required) and afk mining crokite in 0.0, why would a corp waste time mining in empire? Or risk low sec for slightly "better" ore?

I mean look at all the systems in game that never get mined. Ever. Say you want to mine Hedbergite in a 0.2. You can pick a system with a station for refining, but then you have to worry about traffic around the staion bein hostile. Try gettin someone good enough to win most of the time in pvp to cover you for half the yeild. Half of 8mil an hour? Ya get maybe 2 hours before he gets bored.

So make the op bigger, more miners haulers and cap. They are still makin at most round 5 mil an hour if everyone is working effeciently and has near maxed skills for thier job. Problem is word gets out that there's a big minin op goin on and pirate gangs start campin your system. Now you pvp or hide. Neither makes much money.

So you pick a system with no station. Now you have to haul several jumps to refine. More haulers more protection for them. Less cash per player. Or you can put up a POS to refine. At the rate they chug through fuel, it's not a great option either.

The amount of coodination it takes to pull off any of these large operations of on a regular basis reqires a higher payout then low sec or empire provides.

Now if we could drop off freight cans in a safe spot, haul to them, and then pick them up later with a heavily gaurded freighter, low sec might be worth it. I wouldn't care if they locked or not. Flipping and destroying large amounts of ore almost instantly needs to be fixed though.

Or, letting us refine on site and then transporting the minerals would help greatly. Maybe mobile defences to cut down on cap needed. Anything that reduces the man hours required. Problem is most anything you do helps macro miners drive the prices down further.

aaron 619
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.06.16 07:15:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Edited by: Torothanax on 15/06/2007 18:40:09
Originally by: aaron 619
all I have to say is




OMG ROFLExclamation

Thank you.


Care to contribute to the thread Mr. "I live in 0.0, fix Morphite"?

For the record I do mine with my corp. Gang bonuses help a lot, as does a dedicated hauler for several miners. I also jet can mine all day long when there is not a corp op goin on. I just do it in the middle of no where high sec. Griefers don't usually go 14 jumps to mess with one person.

I'm not sayin I want everything I said in my first post. Or that any of it would be all that good for the game. I'm just sayin mining at the moment is very limited, and not really worth doin anymore. Macros have ruied mining more then anything else. One person running (I've seen) 8 exhumers and a hauler for hours on end. Or 3 afk hulks with an afk hauler goin 24/7. Hard to compete with. I've seen them in empire. I've seen them in low sec. I'll wager they run in deep 0.0 as well. Multi player my ass.

The price of minerals makes splitting the yield not very appealing to most players compared to other sources of income. With lvl 10 missions, 2bil per day trade routes (titan required) and afk mining crokite in 0.0, why would a corp waste time mining in empire? Or risk low sec for slightly "better" ore?

I mean look at all the systems in game that never get mined. Ever. Say you want to mine Hedbergite in a 0.2. You can pick a system with a station for refining, but then you have to worry about traffic around the staion bein hostile. Try gettin someone good enough to win most of the time in pvp to cover you for half the yeild. Half of 8mil an hour? Ya get maybe 2 hours before he gets bored.

So make the op bigger, more miners haulers and cap. They are still makin at most round 5 mil an hour if everyone is working effeciently and has near maxed skills for thier job. Problem is word gets out that there's a big minin op goin on and pirate gangs start campin your system. Now you pvp or hide. Neither makes much money.

So you pick a system with no station. Now you have to haul several jumps to refine. More haulers more protection for them. Less cash per player. Or you can put up a POS to refine. At the rate they chug through fuel, it's not a great option either.

The amount of coodination it takes to pull off any of these large operations of on a regular basis reqires a higher payout then low sec or empire provides.

Now if we could drop off freight cans in a safe spot, haul to them, and then pick them up later with a heavily gaurded freighter, low sec might be worth it. I wouldn't care if they locked or not. Flipping and destroying large amounts of ore almost instantly needs to be fixed though.

Or, letting us refine on site and then transporting the minerals would help greatly. Maybe mobile defences to cut down on cap needed. Anything that reduces the man hours required. Problem is most anything you do helps macro miners drive the prices down further.



OK, you Jet can mining is not what jet cans are/were ment for, would you rather have them removed from the game, if you can't be happy with GRATE jet cans that CCP devs allowed to stay in the game with out nerfing them to death, then so be it, but don't even try and undermine me with a totally different issue that I posted else were in the forums

your attempts at undermining just go to show your inability to argue correctly and I found it funny that you were boo hooisng over something that was a gift to miners

There, you happy nowTwisted Evil

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.06.16 12:04:00 - [42]
 

i kinda like the idea of ore theft being a mini profession.
It would really give hacking skill and equipment a reason to be used.

Also make ore theft a crime punishable by podding.

Why?

Example 1.: Ore thief moves in in a shuttle, flips can, gets shot. This is almost no losing for him, because he gets minimum insurance. Comes back in combat ship popps the miner....

Example 2: Ore thief moves in in a shuttle, flips can, ejects, gets shot, and the miner gets concordokkend....

so, it is pretty much a griefers game

and it is no big issue against macroers anymore, because they are smart too, and use GSCs for transfer already....

Kirov VIII
Posted - 2007.06.16 12:27:00 - [43]
 

Mining = group
group = miner & indus ...

If you mine with a group, you haven't problem ... If you mine alone, assume the consequences ...
They aren't problem with ore thief ... It's only a job ;)

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.06.16 12:47:00 - [44]
 

You do realize that new players mine alot to get started?

And secondly it is not a job, it does not require any skill or equipment, not to mention ships.
Considered the potential 'income' of theft, imho it would be more than just appropriate to require both.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.16 13:11:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
You do realize that new players mine alot to get started?

I LOLed in real life, before I realized you are actually serious.
Come on, L1 mission running is more profitable as newbie mining, dammit.
Mining in empire is never more profitable as mission running.

Torothanax
Posted - 2007.06.16 16:04:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: aaron 619

OK, you Jet can mining is not what jet cans are/were ment for, would you rather have them removed from the game, if you can't be happy with GRATE jet cans that CCP devs allowed to stay in the game with out nerfing them to death, then so be it, but don't even try and undermine me with a totally different issue that I posted else were in the forums


I'm soooooooo very tired of this dead horse.

Jet cans exist in game for one reason only: so the server won't have to track hundreds of objects floating seperately in space. Used to be you blew somthin up, it left a jet can. You throw your garbage out, jet can. You salvage a wreck now, jet can for the left over loot (which you can add to btw). What were they gonna nerf?


A jet can does not always mean someone doesn't want what is in it. If I leave my lumber on the ground while I build a house, does that mean I don't want it? Hell no, it just means I cant carry it all while I'm working.

In game we can't just leave our ore on the groud. We can't just jet the ore into space either, the game won't let us. The only reason miners use jet cans, is because there is no larger container to drop ore into, secure or other wise.

Jet can mining is not an expoit, or they would have fixed it. It's also not "GRATE", it's just all there is.

Originally by: aaron 619

your attempts at undermining just go to show your inability to argue correctly and I found it funny that you were boo hooisng over something that was a gift to miners

There, you happy nowTwisted Evil


You come on the forum saying jet cans are fine, but then you "boo hoo" because the open market undervalues morphite and ask ccp to force the price to change. Maybe the base price should change.

You are just looking at your little 0.0 corner of mining space, while some of us are looking at the big picture. The ore out there is worth up to 50mil an hour. You could easily pay a guard and make way more then in empire. You don't have to though. You can mine SOLO all day long with 2 accounts, afk even, because your security forces use NBSI. Jet cans work fine if there are no thieves alive in your space.

In empire concord is the security force. There is no NBSI. Concord doesn't shoot thieves. So we have to worry about EVERYONE.

The point of this whole thread is that ore theft needs to be harder, not impossible. Secure can's suck. They are hard to anchor, they don't hold much, and they clutter (and lag) space. Jet cans suck because it's too easy to greif, just for the sake of griefing.

How about semi secure cans that are hackable and don't stay anchored forever? How about freighers bein able to leave freight containers in space and then pick them up later. It's not like they are secure, they just hold a lot. You'd still have to guard them.


Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.16 19:14:00 - [47]
 

Jetcan mining is fine the way it is. You can currently mine:

1. Solo
2. In High-Sec
3. AFK
4. With one account
5. For good profit
6. Near trade hubs

You just can't do all six at once. I can mine for hours and hours in a 0.5 system and never even see another dude in local, stripping belt after belt in my Covetor, needing only a few light drones to beat back rats. I can do this while reading a book or surfing the web, and there's no risk of ore thieves.

The catch is that I have to haul my minerals about six jumps to a strong market hub. Some of those jumps are through low-sec, and I have to be careful. I have five of the six conditions, and that's enough to make me happy.

Would I like to be able to park in a belt, hit the "make isk" module and have it directly fill my wallet instead of requiring me to jetcan, then haul, then refine, then sell it? Sure, I would. But that's unreasonable.

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2007.06.18 15:34:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 18/06/2007 15:35:02
Originally by: Akita T
Mining in empire is never more profitable as mission running.

True.
(Which is wrong, IMO. Another reason why mining needs a boost.)

But it is FAR easier, requires less skills, and is without any risk at all(that is, until you reach the stage where you realize that the so-called "Giant" secure container is nothing but a thimble. From then on it goes downard).

Itīs a great way to start, until you have the skills to do serious missions.
Or good mining skills, because then you realize you're screwed unless you happen to know people who are willing to be bored while you mine, or buy multiple accounts(which, IMO, can't be expected and is a ridiculous idea. What kind of stupid game would force you to buy it twice?).

Originally by: aaron 619
OK, you Jet can mining is not what jet cans are/were ment for, would you rather have them removed from the game

Actually, I wouldn't mind them being removed from the game.
Or given a life-spam of 20 minutes, or whatever.

Because then the majority of miners would finally start complaining, so that CCP can't remain silent anymore, and might realize that miners bring in money as well(not ISK, subscriptions).

Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
You can currently mine:

1. Solo
2. In High-Sec
3. AFK
4. With one account
5. For good profit
6. Near trade hubs

You just can't do all six at once.

It's not really possible to combine #1 and #5, which is the main problem.
Fighters can. They're even expected to, it seems.
But miners mustn't.

Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
Would I like to be able to park in a belt, hit the "make isk" module and have it directly fill my wallet instead of requiring me to jetcan, then haul, then refine, then sell it? Sure, I would. But that's unreasonable.

Right.
Still, from what I gathered, Fighters are able to do so.
I haven tried myself, but Iīve been told that a good fighter can fit a Dominix, put it into a belt somewhere, and go AFK while the drones make mincemeat out of any NPC attacking, basically generating money without doing anything(beyond fitting the ship and learning the skills).
From what I've seen (flying a Dominix for a week or two by now), the ship can withstand quite a punch. So I have no reason to doubt it'll work.

Isnīt that unreasonable as well?

However, no ones asking to be able to do that. But currently, mining as a profession is a joke, the only ones laughing are (probably) CCP(thinking it's funny people actually like doing that) and the griefers. (And, quite likely, CCP again, because they think it's funny to watch griefers, or people being helpless, I think.)

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.18 16:24:00 - [49]
 

I think miners deserve love, don't get me wrong, but killing off ore theft would be like making the Thorax immune to stasis webifiers, or making loot un-stealable, or flagging people for salvaging other people's wrecks. Ore theft is the scissors against afk mining's rock. It's our only weapon against the macro miners and should be preserved, if only for that reason.

How about a mobile refining module, so the "industrial" ship's name applies to more than a personality trait? It would not only reduce the crushing monotony of hauling, but would facilitate mining farther from stations, allowing 0.0 mining ops to work like 0.0 ratting ops.

I think high-sec missions should get a nerf (Just move all agents above level 2 to low-sec systems, combined with my other idea about scaling the security of 0.4-0.1 via the "stars" system), and I think that low-sec belts should get a boost.

Nicoli Malthus
Caldari
Tangential Endeavors
Posted - 2007.06.18 17:02:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Nicoli Malthus on 18/06/2007 17:02:47
I think that a newer larger secure can is needed. My character can mine extremely well and run lvl 4's solo, but i normally mine as a corp gang effort. My corp is small, about 7-8 active people normally in the evenings, problem is these f'ing ore thieves. We are a peacefull corp, don't pvp because we don't want to loose what we have, and while the hell should we be forced to, because some ******* steals what i worked my ass off for.

You people who are saying to leave it alone, your the ore theifs and you don't give a crap about ruining another persons day, being a person who stays in high sec, i should have f'ing security!!! What the hell is concord for anyway. I worked my butt off and longed tons of hours to get where i am, and i am paying to play the game, so as the customer i should be right, and i if i want safer solo mining then it should be provided.

My corp is now stuck in a war, because of ******* ore thiefs who took from my can, and i kicked their ass with my drones on my hulk, and all because of that the rest my corp has to suffer. That is total bull****, their corp is a 140+ people, how the hell are we supposed to survive that, especially when most of our corp is newbies????

You guys saying to leave it alone are just asses, you want to steal, then go to lowsec, so you can't use an f'ing shuttle frigate to move my 27.5k into a new one of yours!!! That is an exploit right there and needs to be stopped! If i'm mining in high sec, then thats what it should be, to me high sec means "NO BREAKING ANY LAWS". The police are there, and should respond to any infraction.

The simplest solution is make GSC larger and hackable, i'd have no problem with that.

Or you could make an industrial transer platform, that would allow miners to transfer ore to an industrial ship, without the ability to be stolen from, this would actually increase the mechanics of the mining in game because you have to move that item around with you, pack up, deploy it, and so on.

And on the same token of using the hacking idea, make a new mod for anti hacking, like security increase, so that to keep the can safe, they have to sit there and protect it more, so that the theifs can't access it anywhere near as easy.

There shouldn't be pirate corps in high sec. let alone can stealers, becuase it's high sec. and we shouldn't have to worry about it there, thats what lowsec is for. People play in high sec. because of concord, now make them do their damn job and protect poeple!!!!

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.19 04:22:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 19/06/2007 04:21:17
Originally by: Nicoli Malthus
Edited by: Nicoli Malthus on 18/06/2007 17:02:47
We are a peacefull corp, don't pvp because we don't want to loose what we have,
There's the fault in your logic.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.19 05:50:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 19/06/2007 05:49:32
Quote:
You people who are saying to leave it alone, your the ore theifs and you don't give a crap about ruining another persons day, being a person who stays in high sec, i should have f'ing security!!! What the hell is concord for anyway. I worked my butt off and longed tons of hours to get where i am, and i am paying to play the game, so as the customer i should be right, and i if i want safer solo mining then it should be provided.


You arrogant, selfish piece of ****. You're as bad as the very worst griefer this universe has to offer. That griefer has a gamestyle too, and pays his sub. You are trying to spoil HIS day by preventing him from from playing the way HE wants to.

You see where I'm going? Like in real life, you've got to take the rough with the smooth.

Quote:
My corp is now stuck in a war, because of ******* ore thiefs who took from my can, and i kicked their ass with my drones on my hulk, and all because of that the rest my corp has to suffer. That is total bull****, their corp is a 140+ people, how the hell are we supposed to survive that, especially when most of our corp is newbies????


What would you do in real life should a larger country declare war on the country you live in? This is not Hello Kitty Online! It's not supposed to be a "nice" place.

Quote:
You guys saying to leave it alone are just asses, you want to steal, then go to lowsec, so you can't use an f'ing shuttle frigate to move my 27.5k into a new one of yours!!! That is an exploit right there and needs to be stopped! If i'm mining in high sec, then thats what it should be, to me high sec means "NO BREAKING ANY LAWS". The police are there, and should respond to any infraction.


Instead, they offer you a Letter of Marque to go after the thief. Concord have more important concerns than chasing someone for a few million isk in ore.

Quote:
The simplest solution is make GSC larger and hackable, i'd have no problem with that.


I would. That would mean more GSCs in space, and that's the last thing we need.

Quote:
Or you could make an industrial transer platform, that would allow miners to transfer ore to an industrial ship, without the ability to be stolen from, this would actually increase the mechanics of the mining in game because you have to move that item around with you, pack up, deploy it, and so on.


Would be nice, but it would allow to easy a time for macro miners and ISK farmers.

Quote:
And on the same token of using the hacking idea, make a new mod for anti hacking, like security increase, so that to keep the can safe, they have to sit there and protect it more, so that the theifs can't access it anywhere near as easy.


You just want it all your way, don't you?

Quote:
There shouldn't be pirate corps in high sec. let alone can stealers, becuase it's high sec. and we shouldn't have to worry about it there, thats what lowsec is for. People play in high sec. because of concord, now make them do their damn job and protect poeple!!!!


CCP have said time and time again that you should not be safe anywhere. Which part of this did you fail to understand?

Now, the reason I actually came to this thread was to suggest that Industrial ships get one "boost" in the form of a refinery module. Fill an industrial ships cargo hold with ore, activate the module and wait a few minutes. Open the hold, and there's your ore - 100% efficient assuming you have the relevant skills trained up to 5 (eg refinery efficiency, metallurgy, specific ore processing & industrial ships). This would mean that the haulers could spend more time at the belt nannying their miners than hauling, and the ore can spend less time in cans waiting.

What we don't need however, is any improvements to solo mining. It wouldn't benefit CCP (think of all the hauler alt accounts that would be cancelled) and it wouldn't benefit the market (think of the massive crashes in ore prices if macro miners never had to worry again)

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.19 05:54:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 19/06/2007 05:53:45
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
to suggest that Industrial ships get one "boost" in the form of a refinery module.
I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for this thing's removal from EvE. Does anyone know why the industrial ship got turned into a container with a motor strapped to it? I want to do some flipping industry in the thing.

Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.19 06:16:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 13/06/2007 11:12:25

There's only one thing to be said about it:

Jetcan mining is a game mechanics exploit turned feature, and the only thing that keeps it from being nerfed is the existance of risk in form of ore theft.


I beg to differ. I have an AVI made by one of the devs in which he used a jetcan and instas to return for insta-dock to demonstrate how to mine. This was made way back about two years before even the Blood patch came out.

What is needed is a bigger secure container (Enormous Secure container maybe with 25K m3 capacity), the answer is simple. A GSC can be filled in less than one cycle from a Covetor even with minimal mining skills. People are already complaining about how many GSC's are anchored around the belts purely because of their pitiful capacity.

A bigger container of this type would kill two birds with one stone. More security for miners if they want to use it and less Secure cans anchored in the belts. The drawback is that it has to be anchored to make it secure instead of being jettisoned anywhere. Also the secure can has the limitation of not being able to be anchored within 5Km of a roid or another can.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.19 06:52:00 - [55]
 

Okay, but it requires Anchoring IV and takes an hour to anchor. This should not be easy to do.

WhitePhantom
Gallente
Edenists
Posted - 2007.06.19 07:50:00 - [56]
 

They need to get rid of all the unused secure containers, then they can talk about adding larger containers.

If they ever make belts explorable like they plan to do, I think minning will get "more secure" since people who steal ore just can't go to each belt in a given sector without having to find each site.

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2007.06.19 08:01:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
That griefer has a gamestyle too, and pays his sub. You are trying to spoil HIS day by preventing him from from playing the way HE wants to.

So, once again it's griefer over non-griefer?
A griefer, by definition, wants to spoil any fun others have - this is better than wanting to live peacefully?
Care to explain why?

Quote:
Would be nice, but it would allow to easy a time for macro miners and ISK farmers.

Macro miners are a problem, yes.
But the only solution against them will be the complete banning of mining.
Justifying the denial of any improvement for miners with "macro miners" is like justifying martial law with "there are criminals".
It just doesn't work. You can't endlessly harm innocents to get a few guilty.
Sooner or later you're going to only harm innocents and the guilty are laughing their butts off.
Like copy-protection on CDs - it only hurts the innocent buyer.

Quote:
It wouldn't benefit CCP (think of all the hauler alt accounts that would be cancelled)

Now THATS what I call great game design. Requiring two accounts to play a certain aspect of the game, and justifying it with the additional income that'd be lost otherwise.
Tell my, why not make it mandatory to have two accounts for any player?
That`d be a lot better for CCP, no?
It'll only hurt those who don't have two accounts yet, like, I don't know, basically anyone not mining(and those few who didn't buy a second account).

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.19 08:13:00 - [58]
 

Quote:
So, once again it's griefer over non-griefer?
A griefer, by definition, wants to spoil any fun others have - this is better than wanting to live peacefully?
Care to explain why?


It's not better, it's just different. You're asking that their playstyle be removed to make yours easier, and I'm telling you that's not going to happen. They have as much right to "grief" you as you do to keep to yourself, no matter how much you dislike it.

There is also an ongoing debate on what a griefer genuinely is. An ore thief for example should be considered a pirate if they are genuinely stealing ore. It's those who simply flip cans for aggro (often simply destroying the can if they dn't get a fight) that are more what you're talking about, if I'm not mistaken?

Of course, our opinions on which is a "better" way to exist in eve bear no relevance to this thread.

Quote:
Justifying the denial of any improvement for miners with "macro miners" is like justifying martial law with "there are criminals".


Go and look at what was posted above to which I was responding. I'm posting on one extreme because that martial law does exist, and it's called Concord. Very few people advocate their removal, but nevertheless my point stands as a result.

Quote:
Now THATS what I call great game design. Requiring two accounts to play a certain aspect of the game, and justifying it with the additional income that'd be lost otherwise.
Tell my, why not make it mandatory to have two accounts for any player?


Probably because this game is PVP-centric, and whilst a second account is very useful in PVP, it's by no means necessary. Secondly, because CCP want us to work together to achieve goals in this game, and not do everything ourselves. Second accounts are a testament to how antisocial people can be: Rather than combining to increase their profits they instead throw money at CCP to let them do it all themselves.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.06.19 13:44:00 - [59]
 

1. Nobody asked to make ore theft impossible, it was suggested to make it more challenging!
This would be good for several reasons:
a.: it would make GSC almost obsolete in Empire and therefor reduce lag.
b.: it would give the victim more time to react e.g. warp to station come back in a combat ship
c.: it would give some astrometrics ships, certain modules and skills (hacking) a reason to be trained for.

The suggestion with an industrial using a refining module cannot be implemented because it would reduce the usefulness of POSs.

Nicoli Malthus
Caldari
Tangential Endeavors
Posted - 2007.06.19 17:00:00 - [60]
 

Originally by:
[quote=Camilo Cienfuegos

Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 19/06/2007 05:49:32
Quote:
You people who are saying to leave it alone, your the ore theifs and you don't give a crap about ruining another persons day, being a person who stays in high sec, i should have f'ing security!!! What the hell is concord for anyway. I worked my butt off and longed tons of hours to get where i am, and i am paying to play the game, so as the customer i should be right, and i if i want safer solo mining then it should be provided.


You arrogant, selfish piece of ****. You're as bad as the very worst griefer this universe has to offer. That griefer has a gamestyle too, and pays his sub. You are trying to spoil HIS day by preventing him from from playing the way HE wants to.

You see where I'm going? Like in real life, you've got to take the rough with the smooth.

Quote:
My corp is now stuck in a war, because of ******* ore thiefs who took from my can, and i kicked their ass with my drones on my hulk, and all because of that the rest my corp has to suffer. That is total bull****, their corp is a 140+ people, how the hell are we supposed to survive that, especially when most of our corp is newbies????


What would you do in real life should a larger country declare war on the country you live in? This is not Hello Kitty Online! It's not supposed to be a "nice" place.]




Ok moron! I have every right to grief about this, if it was your way the whole game would be low sec. or no security at all and i'm sorry, but there should always be some security in everygame, weather it's a home base or star system! Because of this there should be no law infractions in this area because it is protected. You are the exact type of person i have a problem with, you seem to think its your RIGHT to cause my problems and trouble and ruin my day, sorry pal but thats not how real life works. I put up with enough jackass's like you in school, and i will not tolerate putting up with this crap on something that i am PAYING for! I'm on here to have fun, and not get into conflicts i know i can't win, because if that was the case, there would only be two priate corps in game, forget all the races, eventually there would only be two left and they would constantly be at war!

If you want to can steal fine, go do it in low sec, but you have no right to do it in high sec, thats why it's there! And no i'm not trying to spoil his day, he shouldn't even be able to do that in the first place, can we say EXPLOIT jackass!! Then we really should have my way here, fine you can can steal all you want, but guess what, i can fire back at you, and you can't return fire because if you do, then concord will interfere as you BROKE the law in the first place, so your in the wrong! The only reason you pick on people in high sec is because you can't handle it in lowsec, and the reason i don't go to lowsec is because i can't handle it either, at least i'm man enough to admit it!

Oh, and if the game isn't supposed to be such a nice place, then why does ccp want everyone to work together? hmmm yeah you make a whole lot of sense there pal. You are as i stated before, just the typical priate jerk who only wants to ruin other peoples fun, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO SUFFER AT YOUR EXPENSE??? Last i checked that was harrasment and punishable by law in real life, so why should i have to deal with it in a virtual world, by that fact alone, it should be illegal for your to can steal in game, since the game is based on real life attributes!

Oh and what happens to people like you, oh yeah COLUMBINE! So sit down and shut the hell up! I don't tolerate harrassment in real life and will not tolerate it in a freakin game!


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