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Falun Assad
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.06.12 21:49:00 - [1]
 

At the moment anyone can steal without any effort or skill.
Griefers often use it to lure newbies into combat they cant win. I would recommend that in order to steal the ore u need to hack the can, this gives the owner the opportunity to take countermeasures (move material into another can, open fire etc.)
This also makes the skill hacking and the attached equipment / ships mor interesting for players.

Belenkas
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.06.12 22:02:00 - [2]
 

Giant Secure Containers anyone?
Jetcan mining is not the intended way. You jetison a container, means you don't need that stuff anymore. And oh well you can fight back if anyone takes from your can.

Sry but another carebear whine with no logic to it. Ain't gonna happen.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.12 22:08:00 - [3]
 

Sorry, but ore theft is easy to combat if you have your wits about you. If you see a combat ship heading towards you and your can, go back to the station and grab a hauler. They can flip your can, but as long as you align before taking your ore back they won't be able to touch you despite the kill rights.

It's not a mechanic that needs changed. If you have an idea for how to improve mining to remove the jetcan technique however, I'm all ears...

Falun Assad
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.06.13 01:39:00 - [4]
 

Giant Secure Containers? 3900m? You wanna make me laugh, right...? Rolling Eyes
A Hulk generates about twice as much in one cycle...

And about taking it away in a hauler..
An iteron V with cargo expanders has a max capacity of ~17k m, not to mention what happens when you have more then one Can.

I am not sayin it should be impossible, it just should require some effort, and take some time, so that the victim can react...

Right now its simply a bored griefers game "oh well i got nothing to do, lets mock some peeps who cant do anything about it.."

So we either get affordable Transport ships with much bigger capacity (dont say freighters do the job, cause they dont)
or we get much bigger secure containers ( i would even accept that they consume a small amount of fuel)
or jet cans get a small security feature that takes a little effort and time to be hacked.

Shassandra
Gallente
B'oreing B'stards
Posted - 2007.06.13 09:56:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Falun Assad
Giant Secure Containers? 3900m? You wanna make me laugh, right...? Rolling Eyes
A Hulk generates about twice as much in one cycle...

And about taking it away in a hauler..
An iteron V with cargo expanders has a max capacity of ~17k m, not to mention what happens when you have more then one Can.


Tech 2 cargo expanders are dirt cheap for anyone considering to mine full time, and suddenly your iteron holds a jetcan.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.13 11:05:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 13/06/2007 11:12:25

There's only one thing to be said about it:

Jetcan mining is a game mechanics exploit turned feature, and the only thing that keeps it from being nerfed is the existance of risk in form of ore theft.

Don't like ore thieves ?
Either don't use jetcans to mine, or if you really just HAVE to use jetcans to mine, have a hauler standby the can to pick up most ore as it's being loaded into the jetcan by the miners.
It's easy enough as it is to avoid ore theft.

Iteron V with T2 expanders has 25,270 cargo space.
With T2 expanders and T1 cargo rigs, it has 38,432 cargo space.

Hulk with T2 expanders and T1 cargo rigs has 17,199 cargo space.
With only T1 cargo rigs (and using mining upgrades in lows), it has 10,580 cargo space.

Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari
Eye of Osiris
EDGE Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.13 15:47:00 - [7]
 

I'm a total miner/carebear and I have to say that I'm not in favor of secure jet cans. they are jettisoned. There are options that allow you to mine securely. Less convenient yes- but they are there. As I told my other miner buddy (we had this conversation for the umpteenth time last week) It's risk vs reward. If you want to sit in a hulk in high sec and bring in tons of omber and kernite, there has to be a risk. no reason to be making 10 mil an hour with no risk at all.

Other option (the one I took) is to only mine in your alliance's 0.0 space. Since I started doing that, I've never seen an ore thief for some reason...

Nox Solaris
Posted - 2007.06.13 21:31:00 - [8]
 

Implement any of the countless ideas to hamper macro-miners, macro-ratters, macro this that and the other in general... and I'd be happy to say nerf the jetcan and make ore thievery more difficult.

Every implementation CCP puts in to hamper the macros only causes pain for the legitimate players, and any proposed changes to make ore thievery more difficult will only help the macros... and hurt the players.

A 'legitimate' player mining to build stuff should have a corp/alliance friend in the system flying a fast-locking killer HAC or cloaked recon nearby if they expect twinks to mess with their stuff.

Incantare
Posted - 2007.06.13 22:08:00 - [9]
 

Use a hauler alt/buddy. Use secure cans. Don't jet can mine, warp back to a station instead. Solutions exist but they require effort, you do it the easy way, you take the risk.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2007.06.14 00:42:00 - [10]
 

I do not mine, I used to, long time ago, well, last time I mined was about 2.5 years ago. But, I believe that the secure cans can be improved, and it will help the miners and the scavengers alike.

1) Un-anchor ALL current secure containers which are located on the same grid as other celestial objects. In other words, our SS cans will be safe. But, the ones that have been anchored by the gates, belts, moons, planets, stations, DS Complexes, etc. will be unanchored.
2) Give GSC a life-span. Cans in 0.0 would last 48 days, unless renewed by any user - with entering password and opening the can. Cans in Empire will last 7 Days, unless renewed by any user - with entering password and opening the can.
3) Increase GSC size to 27k/m3.
4) Quadruple the price of the GSC.
5) Introduce the Anchoring Fee in Empire Space, that must be paid from Anchor to Un-Anchor Time. Make it 42k/hour or 1 million ISK a day. This will encourage people to actually Un-Anchor the cans once they are done mining.

This will solve the Mining Problem so many people seem to have, this will solve the majority of the Ore Theft problems, this will not increase macro-mining, since they are already using the method with multiple accounts/haulers.

The current situation appears to punish a small-time miner, rather than helps in curbing macro-mining or anything else.

Just my 2 ISK.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.14 00:57:00 - [11]
 

I would happily accept the increase in the size of secure containers, providing the following "fix" went along with it:

1) All current secure cans in all regions were removed, allowing a one month grace period for pilots to take care of them themselves.

2) Anchoring a can would require a corporation standing equivalent to that required to anchor a player owned structure in empire/lowsec space.

That's if I'm not just being a flid and 2) is already true. As for the size of the cans, 27,500 is too much and a rather strange figure. A jetcan should be the size of the hold it was jettisoned from, and a giant secure container should be around the 10,000 mark. If you need more than that, you're just being greedy.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2007.06.14 01:08:00 - [12]
 

27.5k is the MAX size of the MK5 with Expanders. Used to be a max possible Hold size in game, the size of the Jet Can. That is why it is that size, pure calculation easement.

#2 is a bit harsh, I disagree, there should be no "standing" requirements to anchor cans. Thats what the Anchoring Fees are for. It will kill allot of independent miners and as such will not be implemented, I am willing to bet 100 mill on that.

Un-anchoring all GSC, from all regions, is not fair - it will kill allot of 0.0 safe spots/ammo dumps, that do not contribute to lag or doing anything detrimental to the servers - unlike empire anchored cans. Un-anchoring cans on the same grid as other objects is, on the other hand, fair, reasonable, and balanced. it is also easy enough to program.

Calculation of the Jet-Can based on Cargo size is unrealistic, since it requires too many calculations on the side of the server, leave it standard at 27.5k. If calculate jet can for every ship that jetting a can at every moment of every hour, will cause too much lag and will slow down the CPU.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.14 07:04:00 - [13]
 

If you are unable to defend or haul your mining yield effectively, then you do not have the infrastructure to mine safely in the most efficient way. That's as it should be. After all, if a solo miner did just as well as a member of a mining corporation, then the members would net benefit from membership and the corporation would suffer due to its overhead compared to solo miners.

Having help makes some things easier.

Stork DK
Minmatar
Risky eXplosion
Death or Glory
Posted - 2007.06.14 08:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
I do not mine, I used to, long time ago, well, last time I mined was about 2.5 years ago. But, I believe that the secure cans can be improved, and it will help the miners and the scavengers alike.

1) Un-anchor ALL current secure containers which are located on the same grid as other celestial objects. In other words, our SS cans will be safe. But, the ones that have been anchored by the gates, belts, moons, planets, stations, DS Complexes, etc. will be unanchored.
2) Give GSC a life-span. Cans in 0.0 would last 48 days, unless renewed by any user - with entering password and opening the can. Cans in Empire will last 7 Days, unless renewed by any user - with entering password and opening the can.
3) Increase GSC size to 27k/m3.
4) Quadruple the price of the GSC.
5) Introduce the Anchoring Fee in Empire Space, that must be paid from Anchor to Un-Anchor Time. Make it 42k/hour or 1 million ISK a day. This will encourage people to actually Un-Anchor the cans once they are done mining.

This will solve the Mining Problem so many people seem to have, this will solve the majority of the Ore Theft problems, this will not increase macro-mining, since they are already using the method with multiple accounts/haulers.

The current situation appears to punish a small-time miner, rather than helps in curbing macro-mining or anything else.

Just my 2 ISK.


What he said^

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.14 09:27:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 13/06/2007 11:12:25

There's only one thing to be said about it:

Jetcan mining is a game mechanics exploit turned feature, and the only thing that keeps it from being nerfed is the existance of risk in form of ore theft.

Don't like ore thieves ?
Either don't use jetcans to mine, or if you really just HAVE to use jetcans to mine, have a hauler standby the can to pick up most ore as it's being loaded into the jetcan by the miners.
It's easy enough as it is to avoid ore theft.

Iteron V with T2 expanders has 25,270 cargo space.
With T2 expanders and T1 cargo rigs, it has 38,432 cargo space.

Hulk with T2 expanders and T1 cargo rigs has 17,199 cargo space.
With only T1 cargo rigs (and using mining upgrades in lows), it has 10,580 cargo space.


Akita, you really love that quote but its 3 year old, and the jetcan mining has been in game from the first moment, so if the dev really felt that it is an exploit the could have deleted it a lot of time ago.

So if you want to have a easy life sthealing ores at least use a better argument, like the second part of your post.

To repeat again what was posted in n different thread a good solution would be givin decent sized secure cans (up to 20-30K m3), without cargo compression, and maybe even with cargo reduction (all that armor require some space), with a limited anchoring time (requiring some fuel to stay anchored) and that can be forced open with the right module and spending some time.

That will make the ore thief profession a true mini-profession as sthealing the ore will require a ship with a hacker module and the cargo space to get the ore, or two players doing the same, one in the hacking ship and one in a hauling ship; not a shuttle to flip he can and then laugh.

That will stop the people that love to flip the can and then destroy it too.
Destroing an enemy can in los sec/0.0 is a military tactic, flipping it an then destroing it in high sec is simply griefing.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.14 09:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nox Solaris
Implement any of the countless ideas to hamper macro-miners, macro-ratters, macro this that and the other in general... and I'd be happy to say nerf the jetcan and make ore thievery more difficult.

Every implementation CCP puts in to hamper the macros only causes pain for the legitimate players, and any proposed changes to make ore thievery more difficult will only help the macros... and hurt the players.

A 'legitimate' player mining to build stuff should have a corp/alliance friend in the system flying a fast-locking killer HAC or cloaked recon nearby if they expect twinks to mess with their stuff.



Another straw target argument "macrominers" and "legitimate players" should have combat ready friends near.

Mining is low profit as it is, you only need to require 1 hauling buddy and 1 or more pvp buddy every 2 miners to kill it totally.

Are you aware that mining is one of basic isk revenue for new players? and that new players didn't have HAC or recon pilots at a sidekick.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.14 09:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
I would happily accept the increase in the size of secure containers, providing the following "fix" went along with it:

1) All current secure cans in all regions were removed, allowing a one month grace period for pilots to take care of them themselves.

2) Anchoring a can would require a corporation standing equivalent to that required to anchor a player owned structure in empire/lowsec space.

That's if I'm not just being a flid and 2) is already true. As for the size of the cans, 27,500 is too much and a rather strange figure. A jetcan should be the size of the hold it was jettisoned from, and a giant secure container should be around the 10,000 mark. If you need more than that, you're just being greedy.


Never mined in a Covetor or even a mining cruiser? 1000 m3/minute are a normal jeld (a bit low really). So 10K m3 are 10 minutes of mining.

your proposal:

1) ok, but some POS use GSC I heard, so care should be used not to harm them;

2) impossible to fulfill. Empire space require standing 4 with the empire for the corporation (not the player) for 0.4 space, standing 5 in 0.5 space, and so on.

The only people capable to install secure cans would be 1 men or very small corporations builded only for that; macrominers corp that have raised the standing of only 1 character and used him to found the corporation, with all the other characters never doing anything so the don't have standing; and eventually characters in NPC corps with high personal empire standing (if they are allowed to anchor containers).

Who couldn't anchor containers: new players, mixed race corporations, corporations not micromanaging empire standing, corporation operating on the border between 2 empires to get the different ores.


your last note:
Abviusly the giant container should have the same size of the hold of the ship used to move it, that "strange" size was dictated by the largest cargohold available at the time it wasimplemented.




Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.14 10:30:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 14/06/2007 10:35:51
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Akita, you really love that quote but its 3 year old, and the jetcan mining has been in game from the first moment, so if the dev really felt that it is an exploit the could have deleted it a lot of time ago.

So if you want to have a easy life sthealing ores at least use a better argument, like the second part of your post.

I never stole ore. I also never had ore stolen FROM me or my corp's ops with me in it either.
So, you should really take this as a miner's side argument, not a thief's side argument.

I said "exploit turned feature", didn't I ?

And I said it's still only a feature (and not nerfed/fixed/whatever) JUST because there are ore thieves around.
You can't mine faster than you can mine in a jetcan, and you don't need to make any trips until your jetcan is about to blow up or full. Then you dock, and come back in a hauler (more agile as a barge), and take it all back. I mean come on, how else can you top the potential revenue of jetcan mining if you're a SOLO pilot ? Answer is, you can't, not as a SOLO pilot.

How would any of the solutions presented here fix ANY of the above shortcomings ?
Answer is, none of them would. You still get to do everything described above solo, almost the same as jetcan mining, with almost no risk, for maybe increased price, but that's it. ZERO risk, minimal costs, and still no need to get away from SOLO flight.
Bottom line, it will never happend.
__

If you genuinely want something GOOD for the miners, root for an option to transfer cargo between ships directly in space, without the need to dump it in a can.
Exactly how that's done, that's a different story, for a different thread.

Ideally, you'd want to be able (if the pilot wants it too) to convert a hauler's cargohold into a corporate hangar (or at least something akin to it).
That way, anybody in the corp mining in a spot could just dump mined ore into the hauler directly, and when hauler is full, it goes to dock, comes back for another round of ore.

It's certainly safer as jetcan mining, but requires to NOT be solo.
That satisfies a lot more as a potential solution (and not only that).

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.14 12:41:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Akita T

I said "exploit turned feature", didn't I ?

And I said it's still only a feature (and not nerfed/fixed/whatever) JUST because there are ore thieves around.
You can't mine faster than you can mine in a jetcan, and you don't need to make any trips until your jetcan is about to blow up or full. Then you dock, and come back in a hauler (more agile as a barge), and take it all back. I mean come on, how else can you top the potential revenue of jetcan mining if you're a SOLO pilot ? Answer is, you can't, not as a SOLO pilot.

How would any of the solutions presented here fix ANY of the above shortcomings ?
Answer is, none of them would. You still get to do everything described above solo, almost the same as jetcan mining, with almost no risk, for maybe increased price, but that's it. ZERO risk, minimal costs, and still no need to get away from SOLO flight.
Bottom line, it will never happend.



Question

I may be dense but I am not gettin what you are saing there.

Can you rephrase it?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.06.14 14:04:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 14/06/2007 14:05:31
Originally by: Akita T
Jetcan mining is a game mechanics exploit turned feature, and the only thing that keeps it from being nerfed is the existance of risk in form of ore theft.

Don't like ore thieves ?
Either don't use jetcans to mine, or if you really just HAVE to use jetcans to mine, have a hauler standby the can to pick up most ore as it's being loaded into the jetcan by the miners.
It's easy enough as it is to avoid ore theft.



First off jet can mining was NEVER an exploit. An unintended "feature" sure but never an exploit (if I am mistaken please point me to where CCP deemed this an exploit and anyone who was banned for using that exploit).

Unintended though it may have been it has been with us since Beta and CCP saw fit to improve the system with can flagging which to me makes it absolutely legitimate today in CCP's eyes.

The only real problem with it is can flipping. All well and good that I can choose to retaliate against an ore thief but when that thief uses a shuttle with a 1 week old ALT to move 27.5K m3 of stuff in the blink of an eye it is bogus. The thief is risking a whole shuttle...big frakking deal. That is about as low on the risk v. reward scale as you can possibly get. Of course if the miner tries to take the ore back he is now flagged and has quite the reverse problem.

Simply make it that if taking from a can that is not yours (i.e. you'd get flagged for it) you can only move the stuff into your own cargo hold first (at which point you could then jettison it yourself if you like). Basically you can not move from a can that is not yours directly to another can.

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.06.14 14:29:00 - [21]
 

My hauler character can hold about 1.5 jet cans in his cargo bay. So when mining I just use the jet can as a transfer point. As I dump with one character I transfer all but 1 to the hauler.

Then when the hauler if full i dock and unload, In a system with a station, I can dock, and unload and be back out to the miner before the hulks cargo bay is full.

And if a ore thief comes buy he can steal 1 ore, and pop my can. And if you time things right, you can dump, and move to hauler before he can grab it from the can.

eventually they resort to things like targeting me while rats are attacking hoping I will mistakenly set my drone on them, after that they usually get bored and leave.

I have only petitioned one guy that was bumping my miners over and over even after I asked him nicely. I petitioned him for harassment and haven't ever seen him again.

So if you keep your cool and play smart you can avoid the problem of ore thief's, granted this technique requires 2 accounts. but with good communications a pare of people mining should be able to frustrate a ore thief into leaving..

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.06.14 14:37:00 - [22]
 

FYI
- A Iteron Mk V with T2 expanders, T2 rigs, and 12 Giant secure cans can haul just under 2 jet cans a trip.

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.06.14 14:42:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Ideally, you'd want to be able (if the pilot wants it too) to convert a hauler's cargohold into a corporate hangar (or at least something akin to it).
That way, anybody in the corp mining in a spot could just dump mined ore into the hauler directly, and when hauler is full, it goes to dock, comes back for another round of ore.



That sounds like a cool idea for a rig.

Corporate hold rig
astronatics
100 calibration
penalty 10% cargo space
Converts a ships hold into a corporate hold accessible by corp members and gang members.

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.06.14 14:46:00 - [24]
 

I would also like to see a Mega secure can.

About 50k m3 space in it.
consumes 1 enriched uranium / 4 hours.
anchor able anywhere including POS

when it runs out of fule, pop goes the can along with all it's contents.

Frecator Dementa
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.06.14 15:47:00 - [25]
 

all of this just helps macrominers mine without getting their ore stolen... leave the system as it is, it works FINE

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.06.14 15:52:00 - [26]
 

i would be totally happy if ore thief's limited themselves to macro miners but the pester legit miners also.

chairassault
Posted - 2007.06.14 21:26:00 - [27]
 

I think the only change needed is that ore thieving causes corp kill rights not just the miner. This way there are true consiquences for being a thief and change the timer to 24hrs so he cant just hide or a few minutes then move on.
Or atleast a gang kill right

Signaldog
Gallente
Cloak and Daggers
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.06.15 01:53:00 - [28]
 

it already is a gang kill right isn't it?

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.15 03:35:00 - [29]
 

It's currently a corp kill right. Not sure about gang, since my gang always consists of dudes from my corp.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.15 05:02:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2007 05:08:08

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
First off jet can mining was NEVER an exploit. An unintended "feature" sure but never an exploit (if I am mistaken please point me to where CCP deemed this an exploit and anyone who was banned for using that exploit).

You know, it's the same as with evading CONCORD.
CONCORD was never supposed to be "escapeable from", but some people did manage to exploit weaknesses in their impementation and perma-tank or just keep killing CONCORD vessels.
They weren't banned for that either (some of them ended up being banned for griefing when they wouldn't stop doing it even after being warned repeatedly), and it was obviously an exploit.
Only later was it deemed that "evading CONCORD is a bannable offence".

"In computer security, an exploit is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized)."

So, any unintended results due to an unforseen sequence of actions designed to take advantage of a vulnerability in the mechanics used in EVE is an exploit.
Jetcan mining was such a sequence.
Notice how I didn't say "bannable exploit" YARRRR!!

Instead of making jetcan mining a bannable exploit, they chose to turn it into a feature.
But as a balancer, they left the option open for ore stealing.

Originally by: Venkul Mul
I may be dense but I am not gettin what you are saing there.
Can you rephrase it?


There's a reason why mining vessels (frigates, cruisers and barges) barely have enough cargo space to hold a couple of cycle's worth of ore.

That reason is so that SOLO mining isn't extremely profitable, due to the fact you have to make roundtrips.
Jetcan mining eliminates that shortcoming in SOLO mining by allowing you to fill a jetcan, dock, take a hauler, load the ore, unload it... and repeat the process.


You are expected to work together in a team, with several people mining, and others hauling.
This way, you "split" the winnings, and you get out better as you would have if you only mined solo and without jetcans.



ANY solution where you CAN mine solo, keep ore mined safe, then come back in a hauler, carry it home, then repeat the cycle is NOT desirable in the eyes of CCP.
That's why "mineral cans" will not be happening, that's why ultra-mega-huge secure containers will never happend, and so on and so forth.

Your only chance is to focus on things that improve the security and yield of a MINING OP TEAM, as opposed to that of an individual.
That one HAS chances of getting through.


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