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Mahavy Seth
Viper-Squad
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.06.09 13:49:00 - [121]
 

What about that:

Force peoples to select their tank.
Give to EANM a CPU requirements of 45 (for Tech II), and Damage Controls 40 (Tech II). Reduce active tank CPU need. You can still fit Omni Tanks like now but not with full rack of the best damaging weapons. Active hardeners are not used very often, and all setups for defence are the same.

Make Amarr the Ganking and Tanking only they need to be.
Change the -10% to laser cap to -7% to laser cap. Increase laser damage multiplier by 30% and remove or reduce drone space from many amarr ships (except ships like Curse obisously).

Make Shield Tank more "a standard" in setups
Take some minmatar ships and remove some low slots for medium slots. If you think this is a penalty for them, just icrese their base speed to 25%.

The overal idea of CCP to boost amarr is not bad, but they need to increse the math. From 30 to 36 nothing will change, absolutely nothing.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:07:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 09/06/2007 15:07:23
Amarr Lasers:

A weapon so incredibly powerful, that it had to have it's powergrid and energy consumption massively increased to stop all other races from simply mounting lasers to get an advantage. It's damage output is so awesome, that it leaves all other weapon systems out on the dust.

...

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

oh, wait... it here shows that all other weapon systems will out damage and out perform lasers on unhardened tanks. I don't even want to think about what will happen once the weapons all hit armor Confused

Hey You
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:07:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Hey You on 09/06/2007 15:10:39
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Hey You
Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.


I'm sure BoB will be all too willing to prove this by killing all hostile Titans they encounter within a few hours or days of the upcoming modifications. You guys being the best of the best elite PvP masters and everything.


But wait we are best. Because we actually killed 2 "not killable" things. So what is your point? We proved Titan is killable. Granted not trough normal ways, but it is :D

Originally by: Asuka Asami
Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: Kar Strike
Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04
Originally by: Hey You
Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

Originally by: Hey You
we will still DD ppl right left and center.

Rolling Eyes


Also;
Originally by: Hey You
You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.


You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.


But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)


I'd say something clever to make people laugh at you, but you're doing a good job yourself, so I'll just give you a Rolling Eyes


Supercaps; Good thing the remote DD is removed, however I'd loved to see more drastic changes to have taken place ie. complete removal of the DD or at least a much harsher penalty to using it (unmoveable for 10 mins after activation, possibility of actually targetting the DD and thereby destroying it). Personally I'd love to see Titans turn into a massive logistics platform with lots of nifty logistical stuff instead of solopwnmobiles where you hear the pilots scream on comms; "WAAAAPPP TO .....!!!", after which you arrive and everything is dead.




Yes i am Absolutely sure you have all knowledge about anything. Simple amazing. Just by requesting Total removal of any offensive capabilities Titan have just shows how bitter you are.

Ok here is a crash course how to NOT get doomsdayed.

- Warp in, Align back.
- Use Intel, use Covert Ops
- Use Locator Agents
Even with all that dictor decloacks, bubbles your fleet - Cyno goes on titan appears:
Even with all above steps you are doomed if:
- You cry like baby
- Your FC is lost as to what to do
- Your fleet setup sucks
You are not doomed if:
- You MWD out of bubble moment cyno went up
- Your FC keeps his control on situation
- Once out of bubble (in 15 seconds, now 20 i am sure it is doable) you warp off.

Now to all people Whining about Titans: I have been on receiving end Lately a Lot! Hey Ebil Thug :)

- Fitting to tank a DD is R3tarded, since you basically destroyed any chance vs hostile fleet who is fitted for a sniping. Learn how to avoid DDs not Tank for them and make yourself pray for support fleets.

Ebil Thug fired over 20 DDs on us and he never killed more than 3-4 ships in them, 3-4 ships that were simply unlucky as i once was (Titan cynoed next to me and kicked me out of alignment while mwding away from bubble - Dead) or wasn't aligned.

So u see it must be your poor skills guys that gets you doomsday ed in such mass each time. Till you learn to actually be safe from it and instead whine here you will get DDed same as u was before. Hence u Suck.

Edit: On and i am looking forward to Amarr Boost not this "Boost"

maGz
Amarr
Chaos Theory.
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:33:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Hey You
Edited by: Hey You on 09/06/2007 15:10:39
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Hey You
Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.


I'm sure BoB will be all too willing to prove this by killing all hostile Titans they encounter within a few hours or days of the upcoming modifications. You guys being the best of the best elite PvP masters and everything.


But wait we are best. Because we actually killed 2 "not killable" things. So what is your point? We proved Titan is killable. Granted not trough normal ways, but it is :D

Originally by: Asuka Asami
Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: Kar Strike
Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04
Originally by: Hey You
Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

Originally by: Hey You
we will still DD ppl right left and center.

Rolling Eyes


Also;
Originally by: Hey You
You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.


You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.


But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)


I'd say something clever to make people laugh at you, but you're doing a good job yourself, so I'll just give you a Rolling Eyes


Supercaps; Good thing the remote DD is removed, however I'd loved to see more drastic changes to have taken place ie. complete removal of the DD or at least a much harsher penalty to using it (unmoveable for 10 mins after activation, possibility of actually targetting the DD and thereby destroying it). Personally I'd love to see Titans turn into a massive logistics platform with lots of nifty logistical stuff instead of solopwnmobiles where you hear the pilots scream on comms; "WAAAAPPP TO .....!!!", after which you arrive and everything is dead.




Yes i am Absolutely sure you have all knowledge about anything. Simple amazing. Just by requesting Total removal of any offensive capabilities Titan have just shows how bitter you are.

Ok here is a crash course how to NOT get doomsdayed.

- Warp in, Align back.
- Use Intel, use Covert Ops
- Use Locator Agents
Even with all that dictor decloacks, bubbles your fleet - Cyno goes on titan appears:
Even with all above steps you are doomed if:
- You cry like baby
- Your FC is lost as to what to do
- Your fleet setup sucks
You are not doomed if:
- You MWD out of bubble moment cyno went up
- Your FC keeps his control on situation
- Once out of bubble (in 15 seconds, now 20 i am sure it is doable) you warp off.

Now to all people Whining about Titans: I have been on receiving end Lately a Lot! Hey Ebil Thug :)

- Fitting to tank a DD is R3tarded, since you basically destroyed any chance vs hostile fleet who is fitted for a sniping. Learn how to avoid DDs not Tank for them and make yourself pray for support fleets.

Ebil Thug fired over 20 DDs on us and he never killed more than 3-4 ships in them, 3-4 ships that were simply unlucky as i once was (Titan cynoed next to me and kicked me out of alignment while mwding away from bubble - Dead) or wasn't aligned.

So u see it must be your poor skills guys that gets you doomsday ed in such mass each time. Till you learn to actually be safe from it and instead whine here you will get DDed same as u was before. Hence u Suck.

Edit: On and i am looking forward to Amarr Boost not this "Boost"


As I said before - you're doing a perfect job making an ass out of yourself so why bother? This will be the last letters I waste on you as you obviously do not have the mental capacity to have a proper discussion about something as trivial as game-mechanics.

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:45:00 - [125]
 

If you guys think Pulse laser tracking was fine, you really have no clue at all. Orbit say a Harbinger at 500m in a cruiser and he will hardly hit you. Try the same with an AC Hurricane and see how long you will live.

This is a very welcome fix.

However, I would still love to see the role problems adressed. Either fix nos or whatnot, but Amarrians being so dependant on cap and so vulnerable to cap warfare is not even funny. They should be the kings of cap warfare, right?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:59:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 15/06/2007 02:10:07

Interesting blog.

Regarding the EANM change - well people will always want to use the best possible option.
Retaining it but making it harder or impossible to reach only makes players complain (see recent threads).
I think the better solution will be to make omni-tanks less viable stats wise.

Being able to fit only a single EANM is one idea.
Personally, I agree with Adril Alatar on the 17,5% resistance for the EANMII and 27,5% for the Invul.FieldII.
If you look at the numbers it should've been like that right from the start.
E.Membranes: T1 32,5% - T2 37,5% gain: 15,38%
EANM: T1 15% / T2 20% gain: 33,33%
There is no problem with the tech1 modules, it's a tech2 issue. Applying the same 15,38% boost to EANM's gives 17,31% resists for tech2. Thus 17,5% would be a very adequate value, even rounded up a bit.


As for Amarr, I was about to write some things like damage increase and less energy consumption, but... after looking at the numbers, it isn't that obvious.
How many of the complaining Amarr pilots have their ship skill at lvl3 or 4? How many at 5?
With ship lvl5 and cap use bonus at 50% the energy efficiency isn't that much worse compared to hybrids. The jump from 4 to 5 is a big one and outright crucial for comparing lasers to hybrids.
Granted, it still seems like laser cap usage could be reduced a little bit, like 5-10%, but it isn't as obvious as it seems. 20% less would make large beam lasers more energy efficient than large railguns - with ship lvl5 that is.
I'd advice everybody to calculate damage per second and energy per dps for laser turrets before jumping to false conclusions or solutions.
Regarding Dps, the max. 25% dmg ship bonus of hybrids is pretty much included into laser stats right from the start.
That's right, large energy beams have higher base damage than large railguns.
This means that at lower ship levels, laser base dps is higher but energy usage is a lot worse. At lvl5 lasers have 10-20% worse energy efficiency, but a superior alpha. Amarr ships with dmg bonus have superior dps.
If beams can't be fitted easily, that's a different issue and would call for a fitting fix, not a dmg boost.
NPC resistances, common PvP resistances and the absence of Caldari ships in PvP indeed seem to play a major role in the general 'lasers are inferior' perception.
Thus, at a second glance, the devs' call on EANM's doesn't seem such a bad move. To start with, that is. This whole thing is a balancing monster.

Nevertheless, as mentioned above, the 10% jumps of the Energy Turret capacitor use bonus create a bit of a problem. The last 10% make a lot of difference, and the devs have to balance with the maximum lvl in mind. But many players pilot their ships with ship lvl3 or 4 for a long time and while they do, they are at a greater disadvantage than pilots of other factions.
To alleviate this effect, the max cap useage could be reduced by lowering cap use bonus and activation cost.

As a combined set of adjustments, I'd suggest:

1. Change capacitor use bonus from 10% to 7,5% and reduce activation cost accordingly to 80% of current value.
Makes lasers/Amarr ships a lot more usable with low or no cap use bonus.

2. Reduce activation cost by an additional 7,5% (results in 70.3 for tachyons).
Actual boost. Still this keeps energy/sec at lvl5 above large rails (12.3% more for Tachyon, compared to 425mm) in exchange for bigger alpha and possible 2nd or 3rd (bearing in mind the included) dmg bonus.

3. Reduce EM armor resistance by 5% across the board.
Actual boost. At the moment combined armor resistance is higher than combined shield resistance, so this shouldn't be a problem.

4. Revise NPC EM resistances.
Mission runner love. For example: drop shield EM resistance on Serpentis by 50%, Angels by 30% and Guristas by 20%.

Combined with less omni tanking and hopefully some Nos reduction anytime soon, this might really help Amarr.

Fabienne Runestar
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.09 16:07:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Fabienne Runestar on 09/06/2007 16:08:15
Okay never one to like making statements about a problem without offering a valid resolution, I've spent sometime thinking about the Titan being able to warp after DD. I think I've found a suitable resolution to the problem.

Lock the Titan down from warp and jumps for 10 minutes but give him the ability to reverse jumpbridge in a reinforcement fleet during that time window. Basically Titan DD he's locked in space for 10 minutes, maybe drive overloaded or something causing him not to be able to move. But in that time window, he has the ability to link onto a cyno generator in another system. Once the bridge is opened, people can just click on the cyno field in the far system and jump to the Titan's local space.

A reserve fleet could be held a cyno jump away if needed they could be summoned to the Titan's defense.

Mini Mizer
Posted - 2007.06.09 16:30:00 - [128]
 

Go get something colder to drink and cozy up to the ice bar.

Silly Nerfs to armor, passive shields and hull...

Theres so many other things you could fix or tweak.
Fix the tracking on Artillery on stationary objects at optimal range the size of a BattleTower. There SHOULDNT ever be a MISS, unless you have a developer in the structure!
Fix the gang bonuses in missions and such.
Fix rules of empire engagement.
Allow specific kill contracts.
Add content, new ships, let there be more diversity in setups.

"passive shield tank of certain ships and others" uh huh what others..... allow people to re-equip their ships completely since your making game style play changes beyond training a skill. For every ship specialization you use, you have a penalty. Whats really the big deal with the passive tank? They are definitely not indestructible.
You must have lost a ship to a setup you decided you didn't like.

In Character - No I don't fly a passive tank .






Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.09 16:53:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: blog
Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively.



I'm surprised nobody else noticed this, but CCP are saying that after this patch:
Interdictor bubbles prevent super capitals from jumping.
Anchorable bubbles prevent super capitals from warping.

This is huge, assuming that they meant to put that word "respectively" in there.

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.09 17:02:00 - [130]
 

give love to the pilgrims nos rangE!!!!!

B Glorious
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.06.09 18:38:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Hllaxiu

I'm surprised nobody else noticed this, but CCP are saying that after this patch:
Interdictor bubbles prevent super capitals from jumping.
Anchorable bubbles prevent super capitals from warping.

This is huge, assuming that they meant to put that word "respectively" in there.


I'm actually pretty sure this is just a translation error or some such, judging by this post by Oveur.

Personally, I think that given enough time, the balance devs will eventually balance things out. However, I am not exaggerating when I say that the announced changes to supercaps are not even close to adequate.

Allowing bubbles to tackle titans - a good start, but not enough. First, it doesn't do anything for supercapitals in lowsec, and allowing bubbles in lowsec could give way to god knows how many other problems that should be avoided in the first place. Second, the doomsday has a 250km radius starting from its origin. Are you telling me that a dictor is supposed to fly over 250km in a matter of seconds to bubble a titan, and through all this it has to survive the fire from the titan's support craft (rare but very possible) and then miraculously the attacker's force has to take down a ship with as much HP as a small POS in a matter of minutes, constantly bubbling and rebubbling as it goes on, while coping with bubble bugs that still exist?

Hell, you wouldn't even be able to get to bubble it in the first place, since right now on SiSi, bubbles don't cancel initiated warps while getting up to speed and aligning, I had a friend test this for me. Hit warp, start aligning, and a bubble created during alignment won't stop you from warping off. So yeah, bubbles aren't going to do jack crap for catching titans, though it may help against motherships. (and neither in low-sec)

People will just have to continually bump supercaps, which is a pretty lame option, since its basically the product of EVE's imperfect physics engine. AND it may cause people to desync, but that's not proven, just a likely possibility.

Seriously, why is it such a bad thing to just let us warp scramble a friggin titan? Why? Why do you have to do the equivalent of unlocking a safe or defusing an atom bomb ON AN OPEN BATTLEFIELD just to TACKLE (read: NOT KILL) a titan or mothership?

What the hell ever happened to things like this?
Originally by: Tuxford
Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.
[...]
When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off.

Originally by: Oveur, Fanfest 2006
Titans were never meant to be cost effective [...] people use the ships for what they want to use the ships [...] If people donít want to risk their assets like real men, let them.


Balance based around "kill those kinds of ships or else they'll have more than anyone can handle" is exactly what we have now, and it doesn't work. If you're going to balance a ship by giving it some stupidly powerful weapon but a infinitesimally small chance you can kill it, you're practically admitting its overpowered from the start and you don't know how to actually deal with it.

I'm getting really tired of patiently trying to spell out what is wrong and what isn't, because that sure didn't help much when I did it months ago. This isn't nerfing that you need to do, its just making the game actually work. You need to get a grip and realize that ewar immunity and doomsdays and all the other crap that titans get are at best "mis-features" that don't belong in this game or any other.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.06.09 19:48:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Cpt Lysander
Originally by: Tornoon 2


to the amarr: I don't know much about amarr so you are probably do need some boosts, just remember this when complaining about guns: you don't have to buy ammo or reload


Of course we have to buy ammo.
Have you recently checked the prizes for t2 crystals?
A single Scorch L crystal costs around 1,5 millions while a Conflag L crystal is sold for around 500k ( in Amarr Prime at least).
Thats the equivalent of roughly 2500/800 rounds of Barrage L amunition.


I will SO swap my not having to reload ammo "benefit" for tossing the cap "bonus" on Amarr ships and having it fixed so they can use lasers and get a real 2nd bonus.

And as mentioned T2 ammo costs about twice what other T2 ammo costs. On my Absolution (so mid sized guns...not the more expensive large guns and only 6 on an Abso) costs me 84,000 ISK/minute to use. I pretty much gave up using them in missions as that really adds up. I could afford it but it is a substantial cost just the same. Only gets worse for battleships that use larger, more expensive ammo and have more guns shooting them.

Others have pointed out the deficiencies with the Amarr "boost". If that is all the Devs have in mind for Amarr and/or we need to wait another 6-12 months for something to be done then I am appalled. It falls SO far short of the mark and helps so little (even hurts actually) as to truly make one wonder what the hell the Devs are thinking about.

Far from being a help it is almost offensive to the player base. A tracking boost no one ever asked for and does not help terribly much at all? Make EANM fittings a bit higher but that will not stop anyone from using them anyway and only really hurts the severly CPU limited Amarr? Fixing fitting reqs so frigs can fit something they should have been able to do since forever? Call me underwhelmed.

If I fed my dog a set of Scrabble chips I am pretty sure she'd crap a better Amarr boost than this.

hUssmann
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.06.09 19:57:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 08/06/2007 13:57:39
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: Darpz
another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat Tier2
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem Tier2
mael can fit 8 1400s Tier3
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods Tier2 and no it can't

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods


Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it


It needs an RCU to fit an MWD, but it actualy fits 6x 1400 IIs with AWU 5.


With a whopping 50 grid to spare.

Point is void anyway, mixing Tier2 and Tier3 BS and then complaining that the fitting is different is a little silly.

Oh, and congrats again CCP for completely ignoring the playerbase, first this and the joke that was the e-on awards, you're doing a fantastic job at the moment guys, keep it up.


SauronTheMage
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2007.06.09 20:04:00 - [134]
 

Although making some capitals immune to EW is a nice idea, Webbing and Warp Jamming are not included under the EW category. EW consists of ECM, Damps, Tracking Disruptors, etc since they effect the target's ability to hit their target.

If you look at the bonus to the Information Warfare gangmods, these "Electronic Warfare" boosting mods do not effect webbers or warp jammers. If you look at the minmatar gang mods, these "Propulsion Jamming" gang mods only effect warp jammers & webbers. If webbers & warp jammers were classified under the EW group, they would be getting EW bonuses from information warfare gangmods.

Based on these facts, unless ccp wishes to change the descriptions of the capital ships to state they are immune to all forms of EW and Propulsion Jamming... I think it is only fair to allow webbers & warp jammers to work against capital ships. To make things interesting, so 1 frigate w/ warp jammer can't hold down a capital ship, give the capital ships a +4 (or higher) bonus to WCS.

If certain transporter ships get a +2 to WCS, I don't see why this can't be given to capitals also. This way you need multiple ships setup to lockdown the capitals. This also gives the people in low-sec a way to take on a capital ship since bubbles are not allowed to be used.

Any feedback about this idea?

P.S. - I'd really love to know why Command Ships were nerfed as well with the shield regen, when the blog stated it was battlecruisers only.

RossP Zoyka
Posted - 2007.06.09 21:17:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 09/06/2007 16:28:29

Interesting blog.

Regarding the EANM change - people will always want to use the best possible option.
Therefore retaining the best option but making it harder, or impossible, to reach only makes players complain (see recent threads).
I think the better solution will be to make omni-tank less viable, not only fitting wise.
Quote:
EANM and invulnerability fields should be like damage controls, you can only fit one.
That's one idea. However I'm not certain if people will accept it.

Personally, I agree with Adril Alatar on the 17,5% resistance for the EANMII and 27,5% for the Invul.FieldII.
If you look at the numbers it is necessary. Single resist energized membranes gain 15,38% more resist bonus from T1 ro T2 (32,5 -> 37,5). EANM's gain 33,33%, jumping from 15% to 20% bonus. There is no problem with the tech1 modules, it's a tech2 issue. Applying the same 15,38% boost to EANM's gives 17,31% resists for tech2. Thus 17,5% would be a very adequate value, even rounded up a bit.


As for Amarr, I was about to write some things like damage increase and less energy consumption, but... after looking at the numbers, it isn't that easy.
How many of the complaining Amarr pilots have their ship skill at lvl3 or 4? How many at 5?
With ship lvl5 and cap use bonus at 50% the energy efficiency isn't that much different compared to hybrids. The jump from 4 to 5 is a big one and outright crucial for comparing lasers to hybrids.
Yes, it seems like laser cap usage could be reduced little bit, like 5-10%, but it isn't as obvious as it seems. 20% less would make large beam lasers more energy efficient than large railguns - with ship lvl5 that is.
I'd advice everybody to calculate damage per second and energy per dps for laser turrets before jumping to false conclusions or solutions.
Regarding Dps, the max. 25% dmg ship bonus of hybrids is pretty much included into laser stats right from the start.
That's right, large energy beams have higher base damage than large railguns.
In lower ship levels, laser base dps is higher but energy usage is a lot worse. At lvl5 it is rather even, while Mega Beams with dmg bonus or Tachyons have a better alpha. If they can't be fitted easily, that's a different issue and would call for a fitting fix, not a dmg boost.
NPC resistances, common PvP resistances and the absence of Caldari ships in PvP indeed seem to play a major role in the general 'lasers are inferior' perception.
Thus, at a second glance, the devs' call on EANM's doesn't seem such a bad move. To start with, that is. This whole thing is a balancing monster.


I really think that if active tanking is not given some sort of viable PvP advantage over omni-tanking then no one is going to use it unless they have to.

Omni-tanking gives you better resists then active tanking, even if you are only using 2 EANMs instead of 3.

Keeping omni-tanking's utter superiority in mind, I think that it is silly to expect people to try and fit active tanks as long as the fitting requirements are equal between active and omni.

Frothgar
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2007.06.09 21:47:00 - [136]
 

Once again the devs show they really don't have any real sense about the game.

You end up nerfing Amarr worst with the EANM nerf since their resists are the most balanced for armor and the race as a whole is horridly short on CPU.

Tracking was never a priority, flip around some of the shield/armor EM resists and this junk might start making sense.

Cap/grid usage for beams is so off the wall they can't be used in anything other than a sniper setup, I haven't seen a beam fitted cruiser in years.

Amarr issues are EM armor resists, and cap usage. Stop ignoring that.

Icome4u
Caldari
28 Meows Later
Infinitas Consortium
Posted - 2007.06.10 02:09:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Justin Mathers
Quote:
Supercaps

We have also looked into the problems regarding Motherships and Titans. One of the main complaints is they are virtually indestructible if the pilot knows what he is doing. Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively. While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmís way with careful placement.

Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation.


Ok, that's great for 0.0, but what about low-sec. A low-sec mothership is still indestructible as you cannot prevent it from jumping out of system. Unless I am mistaken, You can't drop dictor bubbles in low sec right?


Yupp its still a solowtfpwnmachine. LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

Icome4u
Caldari
28 Meows Later
Infinitas Consortium
Posted - 2007.06.10 02:15:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Icome4u on 10/06/2007 02:20:29
Ok so let me get this straight.

Amarr = boosted
Minmatar = boosted
Caldari = nerfed
Gallente = still the best

Errr... wtf? I still cant properly fit my Caldari ships b/c of CPU problems (unless i use faction modules...) so wtf... Mind boosting Caldari ships CPU please.

Oh and since the Drake is so 'leet' and you nerfed it into being a **** ass ship, mind letting us AT LEAST refit it? I spent quite a large sum of isk to fit mine (rigs) and now im stuck with them on b/c you guys decided to change it? WTF???

Namingway
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.10 03:09:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Darpz
another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem
mael can fit 8 1400s
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods


You run out of grid after the 6th 425 II on a Rokh, maybe the 7th if you've got maxed fitting skills.Confused

Oh, and Tach are not the same as 1400s or 425s, or siege launchers, they are a tier above, as devs have said for well over a year.

B Glorious
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.06.10 04:41:00 - [140]
 


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2007.06.10 05:54:00 - [141]
 

the matar seem to be the kings of cap warfare
that or ammar ships with atoucannons on. seeing as they have more cap and more dps when fitting non-ammar weapons... doesn't this strike anyone up there in ccp as ODD?

Akirano Hu
Posted - 2007.06.10 12:13:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Akirano Hu on 10/06/2007 12:22:40


No counter-arguments or feedbacks from CCP... not surprising...

SO u guys telling me that:

OPTION1:
with 2 x EANM T2 and DC T2 (using PROPOSED changes) on Amarr T1 Ships:

102 CPU and 3 PG at 2 cap/min usage giving 77.53%EM, 55.06%EXP, 57.87%KIN, 63.48%TH (Average 63.485% resist)AND SHIELD AND HULL resist...


OPTION 2:
with KIN, TH and EXP hardeners T2 (using PROPOSED changes)on Amarr T1 Ships:

108 CPU and 3 PG at 270 cap/min giving 60%EM, 64%EXP, 66.25%KIN, 70.75%TH (Average 65.25% resist)


So using OPTION 1 compared to OPTION2 i.e a saving of 6 CPU (much more if named DC used) and 268 cap/min... I get an almost similar average armor resist with better SHIELD AND HULL resist... did I emphasize on 268 cap/min SAVING???

Guess what I am going to use on my Amarr ships with ''''plenty of CPU AND cap'''' to spare...

Edit: Thanks for this long awaited ner... oups... i mean '''boost''' Amarr rejoice!!! We are truelly f*cked...

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.06.10 13:02:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/06/2007 13:21:13

The before and after graph looks exactly the same to me. I cant seem to see a difference.

Glad to see the minnie capitals getting some attention. Hopefully the change turns out to be meaningful. If someone flies them, I would like to hear what they think about the changes.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.06.10 14:10:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/06/2007 13:21:13

The before and after graph looks exactly the same to me. I cant seem to see a difference.

Glad to see the minnie capitals getting some attention. Hopefully the change turns out to be meaningful. If someone flies them, I would like to hear what they think about the changes.



Look at the DPS under 10km. Specificially between 7 and 2km. Its a pretty large difference, just hard to see because of the slope of the graphs.

However, its still the wrong direction to take amarr in. You ought to beat lasers by getting close. Basically you had the 3 gun types at the short range.

Blasters = Win by getting close
Lasers = Win by saying far away
Autocannons = Win by getting close to lasers and far away from blasters.

Even though ACs and blasters still have significantly better tracking, the solution shouldnt be to make the job they ought to be doing against lasers harder. Because you still have to fix the EANM armor tank issue[which wasnt done] And if that gets fixed, then the tracking boost might really start to cut into the ability of ACs and Blaster ships to beat laser ships in the manner they were intended to do so.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.06.10 17:16:00 - [145]
 

They are looking at PER GUN damage. It doesnt matter that they have a dominix or megathron there, they have the same frickin damage per gun. Tracking is different thoguh.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.06.10 17:59:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
They are looking at PER GUN damage. It doesnt matter that they have a dominix or megathron there, they have the same frickin damage per gun. Tracking is different thoguh.


yes, we have covered that.

ALPHA12125
Gallente
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2007.06.10 18:29:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: B Glorious
What the hell were you thinking when you made this thing, CCP?


just imagine the devs werent allowed to play the game :) how "good" would the fix then be ^^


Redback911
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.06.10 19:33:00 - [148]
 

I dont get it.

Khanid Mk2 was started months ago. What's so difficult? Armour tanking missile firers, its that simple!

2nd Amarr Bonus - You finally got it right with the baddun BUT Ammar quite simply need more cap and more individuality. Remove the laser bonus, replace with another role specific one, and up the cap by 30% base.

The apoc also needs serious love. Atm it has no use whatsoever.

AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
Posted - 2007.06.10 21:30:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: CCP Fendahl
I have been working with TomB et al. on the sideline on balancing for over 3 years and joined CCP about 2 months ago.


Can you expand on this? What does your video game design experience consist of?

DoctorBautz
Posted - 2007.06.10 21:31:00 - [150]
 

lol guys look at your graph.
on megapulse optimal the other highest grade guns do nearly the same dmg, and amarr is far away from predicting the range. and when you just would take a look at the ships:

tier1: dominix (the nos smurf) - geddon : both quite nice
tier2: megathron ( blasterthron or sniperthron, both very nice and often used ships, guess why - apocalypse , giant flying battery no dmg bonus etc. hardly used in pvp)
tier3: hyperion giant gang tank ship - abaddon gang or tank selfneuting bs, maybee good for short fights but if it takes a little longer your cap is gone.

bcs: myrmidon brutix? 2 very nice ships with superb gang and tank
harbinger finally a quite good amarr ship - prophecy only a tanking vessel maybee
good with acs ( it is a shame for an amarr player that he needs to fit acs to be
able to shoot and run a rep the same time).

so should the ammarians only train for curse/pilgrim absolution/damnation or capitals to be competetive in any way?

my view is of course quite limited, i dont got any idea of how caldari and minmatar work in pvp. but when i need to train amarr bs to lvl 5 and controlled bursts to 5 just to prevent my lasers to nos myself, then there is something wrong.

another thing which seems odd to me is that minmatar and gallente can nearly fight at same distance but the slow amarr need to dictate the range. logic? anyone?


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