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Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2007.06.08 16:52:00 - [61]
 

How come i can fit a rohk with a full rack of 350 mm tech II's, and a full tech II tank, but I can't fit 7 named megabeams on a geddon w/o an rcu II?

jeffb
GoonFleet
Posted - 2007.06.08 16:53:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Hey You
After all this nerfs if u gave Titan ability to tank 15 ish Dreads i would say fine its balanced.

Fitting a tank instead of cap rechargers might help.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2007.06.08 16:55:00 - [63]
 

Well, alright, since Goumindong asked politely Cool
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_full_rack.GIF

The original graph (armour omnitank) but this time each ship has a full rack of guns fitted. Amarr still do quite badly.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_omnitanked_shield_full_rack.GIF

Amarr actually look fairly good vs. the shield omnitank. A pity that not so many people shield tank in pvp situations.

Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2007.06.08 16:56:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Hey You
First good more tracking is always good. Second increase damage on Amarr not some Cpu requirements of Hardeners and EANMS i don't see any way this benefits Amarr in any way.

Second.

Titans - U cant jump out for 10 minutes is ******ed. Only thing u needed is slow cap recharge rate on them to prevent em from reaching cap to jump out in 2-3 Min's if they aren't nosed.

Bubbles and Dictor Bubbles now do pwn any super cap in regards with Smart bombs being nerfed to come from center point not hull of ship. which is also ******ed because if u have ship with weapon like smartie, it would be placed on edges of hull. So dropping a bubble = Dead super Cap.

Remote DD removal - good idea. Show your titan on grid before u pull DD trigger.

DD Activation - Damage Delay interval increasing wtf? Only a ****** couldn't be aligned and warp of from DD the way it was.

Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

After all this nerfs if u gave Titan ability to tank 15 ish Dreads i would say fine its balanced.

As for Amarrs again blah :) All you need is increase Damage of guns not mess around with something that works as it is and have nothing to do with Amarr.


Didn't Molle have something to say re: how complaining about game mechanics makes you look?

Dal

Sparkius
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.08 16:59:00 - [65]
 

Please don't forget about PvE! I've trained only Amarr, and I'd like to see a reason to fly an Amarrian battleship as opposed to something else (*cough*Raven*cough).


stoats
Viziam
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:07:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: stoats on 08/06/2007 17:11:38
Originally by: Hey You
bobbit said stuff


Sadly enough I agree, people whining for supercap nerfs have never flown them or made any sort of effort (other than running around like morons) to kill them.

As a side note, alliances who can field MANY supercaps will be relatively unaffected, good luck breaking their spidertanks.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:09:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Hey You
2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.


Apart from the fact that dictors cannot really hold a titan down unless he is stupid as was explained already 1 single carrier in triage can counter out 2 dreads in siege with a single sustainable remote rep.

That is, of cource, if the titan choses to use his lows for harderners instead officer CPRs.

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:09:00 - [68]
 

I just can't find words that explain how stupid these changes to Amarr are. My only explanation is that people responsible for them aren't very bright either.

FOUR ****ing months took you guys to finally figure out what oomph should be and yet when you present us with nothing. Well actually not nothing since thanks to your brilliant EANM fix Amarr get ****ed even more. Domi is overpowered for about a year now and yet you decide to gimp everything around it but not the PWNZORMOBILE.

To make this post filled more with more content than ranting I'll point you Einsteins what you just did:

  • Geddon right now is what you always wanted Abaddon to be 'tank or gank', I mean there is so little cpu on this ship that even with faction EANMs it can't fit a decent tank while sporting 2-3 heat sinks. Now it will be even harder and since community is a lot smarter (this time its not offensive as eariler) than you guys and adapts quickly to your changes Geddon pilots will just be called primary in every gang vs gang since it is a threat if it can shoot (dps is nice lets leave it at that) but has a nonexistent tank (hence 'why the hell shouldn't we pop it in 1 volley from our 3 person gang')

  • Increased Amarr dps at ranges where combat just doesn't take place!!! How the **** am I to keep a typhoon at 15km+ range?!?!?! Domination Web (150m) webs inside 15km range!!! Or maybe I should take my advantage to a whole new level and fight them at 25km+ ranges???? This is all coming from your graph, I mean seriously I've seen some bad 'powerpointing' in my life but this graph could be prepared by bacteria!!

  • I tested my new and shiny (25% more tracking) Geddon on SISI and when faced with Typhoon with one Tracking Disruptor I was just rendered harmless at my usual ranges so I closed my distance. At 1km with my enemy webbed by 5 heavy drones (thx to my oh so plentiful med slots) I still couldn't get above 10% hits. This is your better tracking initiative? Quite frankly tracking disruptors should be called Amarr Disruptors since we are the only race that is really affected by them (Megathrons come close so they don't give a **** about optimal, tracking hurts but not as bad thx to their bonus. Minmatar just laugh at reduced optimal), Amarr rely on both optimal range and tracking.



Jaggeh
The Order of Odin
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:30:00 - [69]
 

given i know very little in the ways of capital ships, can 1 titan jump bridge another titan? if so does the 10 minute timer on ddd prevent the titan from being bridged out by a second friendly titan?

as to the eanm change, making them more costly is only going to make them more inaccessable to smaller ships. and it really doesnt address the issue of poor performance from amarr ships.

The tracking increase? the graphs look identical, ill do an overlay when i get home but the differences are minute at best.

The simple answer is to remove all EM damage from amarr crystals except for the multi frequency and specific EM damage crystal. other than that it should be Thermal/kinetic.

Ghan Tylous
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:53:00 - [70]
 

I'm quite dissapointed about the Amarr "boost". The community comes up with very good ideas on how to improve Amarr and you don't listen to them.

Think out of the box.

Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:54:00 - [71]
 

Overall good changes, though the Amarr stuff is only OK. It's just a minor boost to us (mostly via nerfs to others, hehe), but you did say you have stuff in mind for the future so I'll be waiting. Smile But uhh the nerf to hull tanking? Is that a joke? Confused

Originally by: Sparkius
Please don't forget about PvE! I've trained only Amarr, and I'd like to see a reason to fly an Amarrian battleship as opposed to something else (*cough*Raven*cough).

Mission in the right systems? I use an Abaddon and Raven for missioning and end up using the Abaddon far more than the Raven.

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:55:00 - [72]
 

Step one, warp to battle at range, align, DD.
Step two, warp out immediately to safespot/some celestial at 100km or some such.
Step three, cloak
Step four, ...
Step five, jump and profit.

Titans are now forced to commit to a battle to a degree, which is a huge improvement, but the purpose of the no-jump timer is sidestepped neatly by a cloak.

If non-covert cloaks can be probed out in Rev 2, this would be less of an issue, especially if the chance for probing out a cloak is related to sig radius--this way a cloak on a capital ship is merely rendered mostly ineffective if a prober is around, and other ships that use cloaks don't have their safety totally nerfed.

I agree that sitting in a system all day long cloaked is crap for the defender, but probes shouldn't be an instant guaranteed locator for those that accept the cloak's built-in penalties to fit one. Capital ships are the exception...they're just too massive to be able to hide, IMO.

Ramruqai
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.06.08 17:58:00 - [73]
 

"One of the main complaints is they are virtually indestructible if the pilot knows what he is doing." - From the blog.

This is still pretty much the case, if the pilot knows what he is doing he won't let bubbles be anchored next to it. And also if he knows how the game works he knows that no matter how many dictor bubbles are on him he can still get away via 'warp to'!

Not so long ago me and my friend were doing some tests concerning bubbles and the possibility of actually holding a supercap, our conclusion was it's not possible to keep a supercap from warping off. I've not published this yet as I honestly do not belive all the supercap pilots out there know this and I'd hate to make them more unkillable than they already are! I'll post the Bug Report i did on the issue now:

"Me and my mate were testing out, I think I lunched about 30-35 bubbles and he did about half fo that. These test were done to find a way to keep a Mothership in particular in place. Our conclusion: A Mothership, or Titan for that matter can warp out from ANY engagement that does not contain ancorable bubbles.

We first tried it fairly simple. There was 3 of us. Me in a Heretic with 2 bubble launchers, My friend in a Heretic with 1 bubble launcher and then my friends alt in an Anathema.
We first started by just seeing what bubble nr. 2 did. So I launch bubble and we're all stuck. Then my friend launches bubble after a few seconds. All still stuck, until my first bubble expires then we can all warp even if we are all within the effect of my friends second bubble. Conclusion: Maybe if we time it right? Maybe if we do auto repeat? Maybe only 1 active bubble can be around at any given time?

So we try again. With auto repeat on this time. By the time bubble 1 expires we can all warp, despite 3 other bubbles. Conclusion: Could still be timing? Auto repeat won't work. Maybe only 1 active bubble can be around at any given time?

We do some more attempts and always get the result of only 1 active bubble can be around at any given time. Now since I have dual bubble setup I want to role-play a bit so we imagine that the Anathema is a Mothership wanting to get out. A mothership wanting to get out is bubbled and can't so he starts to pick up speed in some direction, and most likely towards what it will warp out towards. We skipped this part for convenience sake. Back to point: the anathema/mothership is successfully bubbled and can't get anywhere. But what a smart pilot would do it wait for bubble to go down, when nearing the end select a celestial item to selected item and spam 'warp to' button. That would mean that the second the bubble does go down the ship is in the state of "entering warp" and no way of getting it out of that stage since it's immune to all forms of EW. I attempted to put the new bubble down at the same time the 1st one expired in order to drop a new active bubble since I obviously could not do that when there already was one in the field. This failed countless times. We tried and tried with many different ways and up to 4-5 bubbles on the target at once, every single time first launched bubble expired the ship warped. Conclusion: Bubbles are bugged; super caps are overpowered and not only immune to all forms of EW but also all forms of a fair attempt at killing the ship within the desired game mechanics."

Making bubbles keeping super caps from cynoing is a much needed and a very much reasonable change, but like was said in the blog it self. If the pilot knows what he's doing he's virtually indestructible, and it STILL is that case! Large Bubble takes 8 minutes to ancor. A dictor bubble expires in 2 minutes. A medium tech II ancorable bubble takes 2 minutes to ancor. It honestly does not make sense to say it's doable you avhe to start anchoring the ancorable bubble (that can be targeted and killed) at about the same time the dictor drops the bubble before the super cap pilots initiates warp. Talk about co-ordination!

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:07:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 08/06/2007 18:06:28
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Well, alright, since Goumindong asked politely Cool
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_full_rack.GIF

The original graph (armour omnitank) but this time each ship has a full rack of guns fitted. Amarr still do quite badly.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_omnitanked_shield_full_rack.GIF

Amarr actually look fairly good vs. the shield omnitank. A pity that not so many people shield tank in pvp situations.


See. Now this gets to the heart of the matter a bit better. Because we can actualy see just how much damage is being done relativly.

Thanks Kaz

[ed: It should be noted a Geddon has 16.6% more gun DPS than an Apoc at BS 5, most of the difference is in drones.]

Kvarium Ki
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:08:00 - [75]
 

EANM and invulnerability fields should be like damage controls, you can only fit one.

KK.

Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:14:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Harisdrop on 08/06/2007 18:14:27
Most must remember there are lots of things going on here besides these rev 2 nerfs.In testing These changes will not only help make EVE interesting I think there will be a larger customer base online.


To make the nerfs better why not make interdictors a snare probe. Some thing that can be used in any solar system. The attributes could be that its launched from a 30km and has a speed of 500m/s not to be used as a gate camper bubble. The effect of the snare would be warp disruptor effect 500m for 600sec strength of 1 and its only on the locked target. This is not an area affect type weapon


Hey You
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:18:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Adril Alatar
Originally by: Hey You
2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.


2 Dictors and 2 Battleships = dead Dreads.


A titan should not be a solo own mobile.
Have your support fleet with your titan and you kill the 2 dreads ;-)


@motherships:
Motherships should not be allowed in low sec. Or bubbles and dictors should be allowed in low sec ;-)



2 Dictors and 2 Bs cant kill Sieging Dread. Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile. You say support fleet. Ok. I hope you realize that no support fleet can save titan who cant jump out and is trapped by dictor bubble, from some noob that trained for dictor 2 months while 30 dreads kills it in 1 minute. That is Wrong.

If you don't need to build it 3 months and if you don't need 100 Billion to to make it then i would say fine. But for amount of time and work u need to invest to get a Titan and now u can lose it in 1 Minute - R3TARDED

Originally by: Audri Fisher
How come i can fit a rohk with a full rack of 350 mm tech II's, and a full tech II tank, but I can't fit 7 named megabeams on a geddon w/o an rcu II?


You compare Tier 3 Bs to a Tier 1 Bs, but the again you are Iron so that explains it...

Originally by: jeffb
Originally by: Hey You
After all this nerfs if u gave Titan ability to tank 15 ish Dreads i would say fine its balanced.

Fitting a tank instead of cap recharger's might help.


Have you ever flied Dread let alone Titan? If you did u would know that Titan Dies to a 2 Sieging Dreads no matter what his tank is. But then again as above u are Goon so that explains it too.

Originally by: Dal Thrax
Originally by: Hey You
Stuff


Didn't Molle have something to say re: how complaining about game mechanics makes you look?

Dal



You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining. No one complains we will still DD ppl right left and center. All i am saying that i would never spend my ISK on a ship that takes so much time to make and cost so much so a some n00b can kill it.

Originally by: Khan Soriano
Stuff[/*]
[/list]



QFT

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:31:00 - [78]
 

So it took you a year to 'invent' this a so-called amarrian boost?

/me hesitates wheahter Laughing or Evil or Very Mad or ugh suits better...

Ok. Let's get back to constructive part.

Dear Devs.

1) If you boost all pulses tracking by 25% what will be the point in existence ofguns like this crap?

2) Is there any minor chance for us to see beams cap use addressed? (and reduced, actually)

3) Finally, where is the Tux himself? We are waiting for the ships overhaul etc.

Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:40:00 - [79]
 

The failure of any dev to address the hundreds of complaints in at least half a dozen threads about what they are doing to EANM is disgusting.

The claimed reason for the nerf is to boost Amarr, yet it hurts their ships even more than it hurts Gallente. The Amarrians don't want this either!

You lower CPU on active hardeners, but not enough for 3 hardeners to take less CPU than 2 EANM, nevermind that most ships won't have enough slots for them in the first place. You people can count, right?

Is too much to ask that someone there in Iceland have the common sense to reduce base armor EM resist instead of screwing up one of the only resist modules that an armor tanker can realistically expect to use? You guys created this problem by giving armor far too much EM resistance to begin with, now you try to address it not by fixing your mistake, but by nerfing something that turns your mistake into a real problem.

I promise you I will circumvent this change if it goes through. I'll find a module I can drop or swap so I can keep my guns and what little tank I have and to hell with you. More than likely the best way is to drop the scrambler and bring another ship to do that. Maybe we'll get somebody to train up for the armored warfare module so we can raise the whole gang's resists even higher. That's my response to this nerf: my middle finger to you.

Kar Strike
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:41:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04
Originally by: Hey You
Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

Originally by: Hey You
we will still DD ppl right left and center.

Rolling Eyes


Also;
Originally by: Hey You
You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.


You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.

Standard Deviation
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:41:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Hey You
long whine about how its unfair that Titans can be killed. Seems to think solo pwnmobiles are good for the game.


You know the nerfs still werent enough.

it still only cost 20 mil. to shoot the thing. bubbles still dont stop warps after they start.

super caps are pretty stupid, we should make them easily killable, to get rid of the ones already built and to deter people from building more. Eve was a better game before them.

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:42:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Khan Soriano
I mean seriously I've seen some bad 'powerpointing' in my life but this graph could be prepared by bacteria!!

HOLY LOL! Very HappyVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy

Adril Alatar
Minmatar
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:46:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Kar Strike
Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04
Originally by: Hey You
Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

Originally by: Hey You
we will still DD ppl right left and center.

Rolling Eyes


Also;
Originally by: Hey You
You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.


You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.


I never thought i would agree with a Goon ;-)

/signed Neutral

Rosalina Sarinna
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:47:00 - [84]
 

First of all, thankyou for your work in balancing kieron.

I'd like to say in reference to your blog, and to the particular Amarr 'boost' you mention, the following... I never really had much of an issue with pulses, but if they are getting boosted a bit then thats all fine and good. Also good news about the small "medium Beam lasers" being boosted, the fit was a serious problem on frigates. However, that leaves a rather large side of the equation alone, (if we assume there are no other adjustments coming along) for the medium and large Beam lasers. Hate to say it, but their cap use is still horrendous, and their fit on respective ships is really really tight (having to fit mutiple PDUs or CPUs even with good skills therefore nerfing the ship's own armor tank).

TrevorReznik
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:48:00 - [85]
 

Stop trying to argue, Kar, you're in goonfleet. I bet you don't even have dictors trained on your account, it's far too difficult and expensive to do so!

Hey You
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:50:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Kar Strike
Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04
Originally by: Hey You
Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

Originally by: Hey You
we will still DD ppl right left and center.

Rolling Eyes


Also;
Originally by: Hey You
You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.


You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.


But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)

Santa Anna
Caldari
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:52:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher
How come i can fit a rohk with a full rack of 350 mm tech II's, and a full tech II tank, but I can't fit 7 named megabeams on a geddon w/o an rcu II?


Geddon is a tier 1 BS, Rohk is a tier 3. It should be easier to fit the same things (or their analogues) on bigger, far more expensive ships. Compare Abaddon/Rokh, not Geddon/Rokh.

Kar Strike
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:53:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:52:47
Originally by: Hey You
But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)


So then I imagined the following comments you made earlier in this thread?

Originally by: Hey You
but the again you are Iron so that explains it...

Originally by: Hey You
But then again as above u are Goon so that explains it too.


It's nothing to do with IRON or Goon, but you're the one who raised it as an issue.

Vincent S
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.06.08 19:00:00 - [89]
 

Titans are the biggest fun-destroyers in the game (or any game in the history of mankind) and I'm glad you've realized that something needed to be done. I still think the doomsday should be removed altogether (The jump bridge is insanely powerful on its own, and you could make it easier to use/cheaper as an alternative) but barring that, this is better than nothing.

Supercaps should never have been introduced, and I hope you'll continue to monitor the situation.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2007.06.08 20:16:00 - [90]
 

Well omni tank nerf really doesn't work to be honest. Infact, I day say it nerfs amarr even more.

How bout you do this :

Reduce Energized Adaptive Nano's to 10% at tech 1 and then 15% for Tech 2. Corpum would be like 23%.

Then you introduce 2 new modules types. Invunerability Amplifier and Omni Adpative Armor Hardner.

The Invunderability Amplifier is a shield based module that gives, you guessed it, 10% shield resistance to ALL damage types with 15% at tech 2. Shield comp skills will ofc affect it.

Omni-Adaptive Armor Hardner will be the armor based twin module to the Invulnerability field. 25% to all damage resistance types for tech 1 and 30% for tech 2. Make the module a bit CPU heavy at 55 cpu for tech 1 and 40 for tech 2.

Cheers.


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