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Kumu Honua
Posted - 2007.06.07 15:55:00 - [211]
 

This will fall on it's face. I can see it now...

"How many of the oversight comittee is in bob?!?"

"Goonswarm rigged the election with thousands and thousands and thousands of votes!!!!"

and so on and so on...

Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2007.06.07 15:59:00 - [212]
 

awesome Very Happy

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:01:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Kraven Kor


Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.)


Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this.

Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth.

The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so.


It is the person's perception that they see as reality... thus perception is reality... no, it has no bearing on the truth, but that is besides the point...

You are with BoB, and would like to be considered an "Honorable" player, so you play the game as you do, you never lie, cheat or steal, you play as honorably as you can... yet because your name has a "Band of Brothers" alliance tag, you get painted as a "Cheater" because of what has happened in the last year... Truth is you are honorable, perception is you are a cheater... but to that person looking at you as they race away in their pod, you are bob, you cheated... that is their "reality" because they perceive it to be so...

Granted, I don't know you, so if you are not an honorable player, please don't tell me, I want to at least think you are... part of my reality.

invaderzim
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:01:00 - [214]
 

1) This is considered news worthy by the nytimes? Wow.
2) These elected officials would have to be based in iceland for them to have any noticable effect.
3) CCP would have to decide between "full disclosure"" and partial disclosure knowing that whatever they disclosed would be available to the eve community entire.

Elections are only a good idea when the majority of the candidate pool are intelligent and sensible. Being familliar with these forums, I suspect this isnt the case.

Besides, where's the accountability for an elected official whose real name isnt even known? What's to stop this official from making baseless accusations about something he/she'd seen? Would there be any oversight?

Dr Paithos
Minmatar
Republic Deep Space Institute
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:03:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter
i vote for Miz and/or Romeo YARRRR!! Laughing


I vote for Backdoor Bandit YARRRR!!

Mari Onette
Amarr
Equilibrium.
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:03:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: vipeer
Considering the people who are saying the game is perfectly fine as it is are currently members of BOB and the corporations/alliances that BOB calls pets...



The game is perfectly fine as it is.


/Thinks Bob and goons are a bunch of whiners.
//Thinks you are too.
///Don't put words in other peoples mouths.

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:05:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Mari Onette
Originally by: vipeer
Considering the people who are saying the game is perfectly fine as it is are currently members of BOB and the corporations/alliances that BOB calls pets...



The game is perfectly fine as it is.


/Thinks Bob and goons are a bunch of whiners.
//Thinks you are too.
///Don't put words in other peoples mouths.


You dirty Bob lover you!

Buxaroo
Gallente
The Army of The Ori
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:05:00 - [218]
 

Very interesting read and I am glad to see EVE get an article in NYT, albeit not a 100% positive one but still a good thing.

And the idea about player representitives is pretty damn neat if you ask me. I just don't understand all of you CCP haters out there tbh. Can you name another private company that would even consider this kind of thing?

I just wished SOE would have done this to get their subhuman executives to listen to their playerbase. But I degress.

I hope the idea works out and will dispell a lot of the tinfoilhattery going on nowadays.

Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:10:00 - [219]
 

Interesting idea, and one I definetely approve of. And a really good article too, just as an insight into the game without the usual "gamers are stupid kids" attitude from a lot of mainstream media.

Theoses
O.W.N. Corp
OWN Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:11:00 - [220]
 

I haven't had time to read all 8 pages of what is most probibly *****ing and moaning. I would like to express my gratification that CCP are such a great developer who actually listen to us. Having come from Star Wars Galaxies where Sony f*ck*d everyone over.

Anyway, good job CCP , keep up the good work.

Theo

Quincy TawHarr
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:11:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo

The point is to monitor and cure trends that are harmful to the critical element of trust and provide a new foundation for reaffirming that trust, and where necessary make sure that changes are made to prevent hickups. That is in a nutshell what an audit is for.
It's more important here because of the perception factor, and because there is a CCP element involved of commercial ventures, remember that when there is no trust, economy goes down the drain. It is the livelyhood of some, it is the entertainment of others, it is a big part of of heart and soul of a lot.


See it's well spoken people like this that make me look flat out dumb. Well put sir, or at least far better put than I', capable of.

Vactet
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:14:00 - [222]
 

CCP..after all of the recent scandals my trust in you was seriously lacking.
But this...woah. If this works as well as the concept, then youll have it again.
I know of many companies doing this, but never a game company.
I can imagine there will be some serious NDA's to be signed depending on how close people get to look but wow...yeh.
Gratz, awsome idea
Now lets hope it pans out.

Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:15:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Kraven Kor


Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.)


Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this.

Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth.

The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so.


The world was flat until someone showed them it wasn't, thus altering the perception. No, the world's shape did not suddenly change - it was round all along, accept in the minds of people, and thus we never attempted to sail around it. This change in perception changed the world.

"Reality is Reality" duh. But, we all only experience "reality" through 5 limited senses - if we all saw REALITY we would not have arguements, wars, fear, sadness; we would all agree on everything because REALITY can't be debated -- only the perception of it can, and we only operate based on our perception and understanding of things around us. In this particular case, those of us who do think something screwy is going on won't be satisfied until it is PROVEN to us otherwise.

Thus, Our Perception is CCP's Reality.

Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:16:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Buxaroo
Very interesting read and I am glad to see EVE get an article in NYT, albeit not a 100% positive one but still a good thing.

And the idea about player representitives is pretty damn neat if you ask me. I just don't understand all of you CCP haters out there tbh. Can you name another private company that would even consider this kind of thing?

I just wished SOE would have done this to get their subhuman executives to listen to their playerbase. But I degress.

I hope the idea works out and will dispell a lot of the tinfoilhattery going on nowadays.


God it makes me sad to see you with that Corp Tag, Bux-bux :(

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:16:00 - [225]
 

As a real life media professional, I'm impressed. Up until now, CCP has been shooting itself in the foot, but this move is excellent. I wouldn't be surprised if this winds up in PR/marketing textbooks as an example of how to take lemons and turn them into lemonade. They're taking all that free negative publicity from the scandals and making it work for them. The NY Times article alone is worth far more than the cost of flying some players to Iceland.

I canceled my account and let it expire when the latest scandal hit. I sent CCP an email stating I wasn't going to resubscribe until the "MSN" issue was addressed. I doubt I was the only player who took such action.

There's only going to be so much that nine players on a junket to Iceland can do to "audit" CCP. But at least some players will be empowered to ask the devs some hard questions and actually get some answers. This is a good thing.

When I reactivated my account this week, I found the process didn't give me a choice of renewing my annual subscription and instead automatically signed me up on a monthly schedule. I was tempted to go on another "break" at the end of the month, but now I'll definitely sign up for another year.

Money talks and CCP is listening. One player's subscription money isn't a big deal, but collectively we have power. Never forget that.

Kudos to CCP for doing the right thing.

Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:23:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Baun on 07/06/2007 16:41:53
Originally by: Virtuozzo

Keep in mind there is severe distrust, and broken perceptions, but also keep in mind that CCP will have a deep audit. Never easy for any company while work goes on.



How do we know they will have a deep audit?

At the moment we have no knowledge that CCP will actually do this, nor do we have any information concerning what the audit will consist of or how it will proceed. It could very well be the case that CCP holds "elections" for us to choose people who are flown to Iceland to party for three days and then have them release an IA-department-like "all clear on the western front" type statement.

Until CCP tells us what information the auditors will have access to, what they will be allowed to report, how much control CCP will have over the process, how long they will be in Iceland and how often, this whole thing is meaningless.

Given CCP's apparent lack of understanding about what transparency means (see their latest attempt at transparency in their Dev Blog repsonding to the most recent allegations), I have absolutely no confidence that CCP will give us the information that we need to know that what is going on is accomplishing anything whatsoever. That CCP started this by telling a newspaper without releasing any information to their subscribers only further undercuts whatever confidence might have remained.

AegriSomnia
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:28:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: AegriSomnia on 07/06/2007 16:27:49
CCP. we love you. We love the game, we love the drama, we love the fish. Thank you for doing something so outrageous like this. For you to offer this is an amazing testament to how concerned you are about the community as a whole. I am positive that this is coming at great expense to your orginization, and I am sure that the result of this new policy will be positive.

We as a gaming community have a responsibility to understand that there are going to be times where the beurocracy is not going to work exactly as we would like it to. Much like real life governments, when a system is either broken or simply hasnt had all the bugs worked out, there are measures to be taken to fix it. And I think this is a grand step in the right direction. Patience along with perserverance are required, but only to the extent that something is happening to move the issue towards resolution. If an issue is not resolved by fixing the broken mechanic, it appears that the goal was to pascify, not remedy, This is a recipe for revolt, as you have seen.

As a member of GS, I can understand their frustration, even though I was not a party to it at the time it happened. But please understand that frustration can make people say things that they may not really mean, or that they may just say to illicit somesort of response. I offer this quote to put my position into perspective,

"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is nave and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." ~H.L. Mencken

This to me sums up the GS position, and the position of those who stand behind GS. We truely do love this game, otherwise we would have moved on without a fight. But we fight because we dont want to leave. We want the broken mechanics fixed. Corruption is inevitable. Who knows? One day maybe GS will have a dev on AIM? Maybe we will be the target of a threadnaught one day. But swift and open justice is not only what the community expects, but also what they deserve.

An honest and transparent government is the only one worth having.


Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:41:00 - [228]
 

Very interesting indeed. Never heard of anything like this happening, will be watching how this all plays out.

Vactet
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:49:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: Vactet on 07/06/2007 16:48:09
*Clap*
Nice, and yeh you are right.
Theres an old saying about fighting the residents of an area, or a country.
Basically, you can expect a harder time fighting them because they live there and have much more at stake than press or the feelings back home. They have their homes, their families.
Despite my personal opinion that GS might have gone to far with the threadnaught, i do believe that it was time for a serious look at CCP. So if all of the trouble that GS caused was for nothing else, than it was worth it for this audit board.
Now i just called my mother..why? To ask a question. She is an adjunct professor of business history at a local college renowned for its business degree's.
I asked her..."To your knowledge..has any company opened up elections to its customers to elect fellow customers to do an oversight?" The answer was no.
Many companies have oversight committes (Spelling?) which are populated by representitives of the investors....but never customers.
One could argue that investors and customers are the same thing in an MMO, but in all technicalities they are not.
So...if all the drama had a point, had a purpose, i hope that this new oversight panel is it.

Now as for who should be voted into the panel?
I believe there needs to be atleast one BOB member. Why? They have an equal stake in the health of this game just like the rest of us.
But i also believe there should be atleast one Goon member. They are ying and yang, but they are both colors (IF someone mentions white/black are not colors, you will be flogged with a wet noodle).
The other 7? Id break them down into 3 older players (03/04) and 4 newer players (06).
This would provide some drastically different thought patterns which would get alot more results than a group of extremely like minded people.

If i had to put my vote forth right now?
Id vote for a corpmate...a corpmate that has been my eve-daddy since day 3, and has shown his knowledge and love of the game over and over again.
Now wheres the nomination thread so i can vote?

EDIT: Hey winterblink, can we expect a new WDA on this? heh.

ScouseUK
Minmatar
The Radiated Space Gerbils
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:53:00 - [230]
 

lol a story of corrupt ccp has made it into the new york times but i guess we will still get the same answer from ccp "were not corrupt these things dont happen" maybe this will be the kick up the backside ccp need to realise how corrupt they have become reguarding certain areas of this game......

and were did the 200000 population ive only ever seen 32k max people signed into tranquility....

LOL i cant belive i just read that it has made my day

Firane
Nothing Personal Inc
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:54:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: ScouseUK
lol a story of corrupt ccp has made it into the new york times but i guess we will still get the same answer from ccp "were not corrupt these things dont happen" maybe this will be the kick up the backside ccp need to realise how corrupt they have become reguarding certain areas of this game......

and were did the 200000 population ive only ever seen 32k max people signed into tranquility....

LOL i cant belive i just read that it has made my day
Something tells me you didn't read the whole article.

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:55:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: ScouseUK
lol a story of corrupt ccp has made it into the new york times but i guess we will still get the same answer from ccp "were not corrupt these things dont happen" maybe this will be the kick up the backside ccp need to realise how corrupt they have become reguarding certain areas of this game......

and were did the 200000 population ive only ever seen 32k max people signed into tranquility....

LOL i cant belive i just read that it has made my day


Silly little you...they do an amazing thing and yet you cry whine and make aqusations...why dont you quit, and stop your whiningCool

Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:57:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Vactet
Edited by: Vactet on 07/06/2007 16:48:09
*Clap*
Nice, and yeh you are right.
Theres an old saying about fighting the residents of an area, or a country.
Basically, you can expect a harder time fighting them because they live there and have much more at stake than press or the feelings back home. They have their homes, their families.
Despite my personal opinion that GS might have gone to far with the threadnaught, i do believe that it was time for a serious look at CCP. So if all of the trouble that GS caused was for nothing else, than it was worth it for this audit board.
Now i just called my mother..why? To ask a question. She is an adjunct professor of business history at a local college renowned for its business degree's.
I asked her..."To your knowledge..has any company opened up elections to its customers to elect fellow customers to do an oversight?" The answer was no.
Many companies have oversight committes (Spelling?) which are populated by representitives of the investors....but never customers.
One could argue that investors and customers are the same thing in an MMO, but in all technicalities they are not.
So...if all the drama had a point, had a purpose, i hope that this new oversight panel is it.

Now as for who should be voted into the panel?
I believe there needs to be atleast one BOB member. Why? They have an equal stake in the health of this game just like the rest of us.
But i also believe there should be atleast one Goon member. They are ying and yang, but they are both colors (IF someone mentions white/black are not colors, you will be flogged with a wet noodle).
The other 7? Id break them down into 3 older players (03/04) and 4 newer players (06).
This would provide some drastically different thought patterns which would get alot more results than a group of extremely like minded people.

If i had to put my vote forth right now?
Id vote for a corpmate...a corpmate that has been my eve-daddy since day 3, and has shown his knowledge and love of the game over and over again.
Now wheres the nomination thread so i can vote?

EDIT: Hey winterblink, can we expect a new WDA on this? heh.


Well, the players are supposedly going to vote in the 9 candidates. I doubt it will wind up breaking down that way, it will probably be Chribba, Dark Shikari, and the next 7 most popular posters. And I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

I'm anxiously awaiting a post from CCP here explaining exactly how this is going to play out. I am sure they don't have all those answers yet, but reading this in NYT with no corresponding blog, dev, or Keiron post is a bit odd -- not necessarily upset over it, just curious.

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:00:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: DJTheBaron on 07/06/2007 16:59:23
The problem with having any kind of election for people is that alliance leaders and forum warriors are not impartial people, and not the kind of people you want to trust with ccp office access. We need average joe eve players, not people with corperate or social agendas.

If this is to be a board of review, it requires impartial entities, not the egos we currently hear whoring the forums or their alliance channels.

Luigi Thirty
Caldari
The Minmatarded
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:01:00 - [235]
 

So how do you make sure that one alliance doesn't blob the elections to get one person's 8 alts elected?

Judas Lonestar
The Knights Templar
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:02:00 - [236]
 

Fortunately CCP has had plenty of time to cover any evidence they dont want people to see.

And based on some of the posts here most players bought it hook line and sinker. Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom?

Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that.

I can tell you RIGHT NOW how it will end. Committee flies over, committee is given "full" access to already audited logs and files. Committee finds nothing, proclaims CCP to be in the right, everyone is happy.

Brilliant move by CCP really. This is more a PR event then any proof their on the up and up.

Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:03:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 07/06/2007 17:01:33


People who read this must think we are all crazy. Laughing

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:07:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: DJTheBaron
Edited by: DJTheBaron on 07/06/2007 16:59:23
The problem with having any kind of election for people is that alliance leaders and forum warriors are not impartial people, and not the kind of people you want to trust with ccp office access. We need average joe eve players, not people with corperate or social agendas.

If this is to be a board of review, it requires impartial entities, not the egos we currently hear whoring the forums or their alliance channels.


Of course DJ......but i guess players ill vote for those, they know respect and trust.....I am hoping it will not be an alliance spamming contest.

Neslo
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:08:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 07/06/2007 17:01:33


People who read this must think we are all crazy. Laughing


But is it the kinda crazy you run away from.... or you marry forever :-)

IE is it Manson crazy or red head crazy?

Susan Acid
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:13:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Judas Lonestar
Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom?

Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that.




Please,get a grip.Shocked


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