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Tony Benn
Dawn of War
Posted - 2007.06.08 16:13:00 - [421]
 

Quote:
"sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game"


Boss: "You lucky git!"

So, with that over and done with - where do I sign? Very Happy

Joik
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:36:00 - [422]
 

I'll volunteer, if they have the meeting in the summer. I see no point in physical travel there to see nothing but snow and interiors.

However, I think paying a commercial audit firm might be a better idea. The Sarbanes/Oxley act has made them really good at checking/suggesting internal controls. Not only would everyone trust them to be impartial, but there could be some good benefits as side effects.

For such a business oriented game, I find the accounting features terrible. The built in reporting is lousy, and the interfaces to use better software are pretty much not there. And, I don't have much confidence in the accuracy of some of the reporting (especially market history statistics) that is there.

A cute provision would be a way to audit in-game corps/alliances. I am just waiting for the first report of corporate management stealing from its members for out-of-game gain.

AegriSomnia
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.08 19:26:00 - [423]
 

Edited by: AegriSomnia on 08/06/2007 19:26:42
Edited by: AegriSomnia on 08/06/2007 19:25:45
Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke
Edited by: Ponderous Thunderstroke on 08/06/2007 11:36:54
Originally by: MrTripps
Won't a committee elected by popular vote be dominated by the largest alliance(s)?


If Goonswarm & Co. doesn't pull a brilliant jiu-jitsu move and throw all their votes behind BoB and pets for the auditors, I'd be shocked. It's the perfect way to cripple the PR train before it even gets rolling, if it ends up being the BoB Audit Council.

BTW Goonies, if you do this, my price for being the first to actually be cynical enough to suggest it publicly is 1 billion ISK, or 50 Muninn's delivered to the system of my choice. Convo or evemail to setup delivery.


Stop perpetuating this crap, please. You have taken the statements people have made in frustration WAAAAAY too seriously. No one wants EVE to die. NO ONE. We want CCP to be a more transparent, impartial entity, which is to the benefit of EVERYONE. This is a step in that direction.

Why would the Goons want to derail this when they have sacrificed everything, including their reputations, to make this exact thing happen? That makes no sense. Goons didnt wake up one day and decide "We are going to destroy EVE/CCP because we're bored". If you understand politics, then you would understand the propaganda campaign by Goons to force CCP to address holes in security and fix broken beurocratic systems that may not have even existed to BE broken in the first place, tbh. Mission : Accomplished.

If you need a villian, like the Sith or Sauron, to make yourself feel like Luke Skywalker, then we are your Huckleberry, but stop with the "Goons want EVE to die" bull crap rhetoric. Please. ugh

Edit: I need spellcheck Embarassed

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2007.06.08 19:31:00 - [424]
 

Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 08/06/2007 19:33:14
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 08/06/2007 19:32:55
Originally by: Ductoris
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Some real big info in there.


'where aspiring star pilots fight over thousands of solar systems'

Yes I'm especially interested in when I too get to pilot a star that sounds pretty hot.


Killwing
Minmatar
Alcohol Fueled Brutality
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.08 19:43:00 - [425]
 

How amazing,everyone reads one little article then starts chatting like magpies,about how great of an idea this is.Rolling EyesAll it is a small bone thrown to the player base to cut out the bellyacheing about,resent issuses.I mean don't get me wrong it sounds good on paper but I strongly doubt anything comes from it.

Sam Reynolds
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.08 20:30:00 - [426]
 

I love the fact that the article points out clearly that EVE OWNS WOW. :)

Zizzlak
United Federation of Planets
FREGE Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.08 21:45:00 - [427]
 

I think this is really a great idea and a step forward. I'm new to the game but I read the forums and I have seen all the poo flinging. I think this is at the very least an acknowledgement by CCP that they hear what the community is saying, both good and bad, true and untrue. I think whether it will work or not will all boil down to the implementation of it.

Just my 2isk.

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.08 23:02:00 - [428]
 

Edited by: Astarte Nosferatu on 08/06/2007 23:01:20
After reading the article again, I believe the system CCP proposed in the NYT is somewhat different than what I first thought it to be. At first I thought, and probably many of you with me, that the committee would audit CCP in a way a professional audit company would.

But now I think the nine elected players would in fact take upon them the role of customer relations, if any more accusations of corruption or any other serious problems involving the playerbase would occur, the committee would intermediate between CCP and the playerbase. It would reduce, if not prevent the amount of 'bad' press like the Digg/Slashdot postings as the accusations would (ideally) be submitted to the committee, (again ideally) formed from trusted members of the EvE community, who in turn hand over the accusations to CCP, and CCP in turn can investigate the matter and work out a satisfying reply. Said committee would then be able to look for themselves how CCP deals internally with said accusations, if the procedures are efficient, etc... If the committee notes that all procedures are being followed, and they are sufficient to deal with the problem at hand, perhaps the community will be more inclined to believe said accusations are true/false if it came from trusted members of the community instead of CCP themselves.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2007.06.08 23:34:00 - [429]
 

How tech savvy would one such auditor have to be to be of any use and not just amount to a big dope being led around shown some blinking lights and being shipped back home?

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.08 23:55:00 - [430]
 

Edited by: Astarte Nosferatu on 08/06/2007 23:54:41
Originally by: Wendat Huron
How tech savvy would one such auditor have to be to be of any use and not just amount to a big dope being led around shown some blinking lights and being shipped back home?


It depends on how CCP want to implement this. If it's a real audit, then I don't believe players should be doing it but an independant professional audit company. If the committee would act as a medium between CCP and the community, they could make sure the right procedures are being followed when handling with allegations of corruption, and also the punative measures when said allegations are found to be true. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be able to see if employees of a company follow their own Code of Conduct and the right internal procedures. And perhaps instead of posting allegations on ********** or any other third party website/forum, they could be handed over, together with any proof, to the committee, which would be trusted to hand over the information on a professional way to CCP, and ensure they act on it accordingly.

WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.06.09 00:09:00 - [431]
 

These nine people - wont they be open to corruption also....a few bill here and there..

Anyway this is great PR for the game. Well done CCP - spin worthy of the great Alister Campbell.

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.09 00:20:00 - [432]
 

Edited by: Astarte Nosferatu on 09/06/2007 00:21:42
Originally by: WisdomLikeSilence
These nine people - wont they be open to corruption also....a few bill here and there..



The players need to vote on people who they believe will not accept bribes or do anything else than the mandate the community and CCP publicly gave them. I personally don't give a damn about isk. On several occasions I have donated tens of billions of isk to alliances I'm in, which often leads to being broke for a few months till I get lucky enough to get a few billion again. I suicide faction fitted battleships for *fun*. No isk in the EvE universe could persuade me from closing an eye or two when confronted with corruption, and I'm sure there are plenty of other players, celebrities or not, who feel the same. Only difficulty would be to elect the right people, but that's what you get from working with a democratic system Wink.

cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.09 06:40:00 - [433]
 

Neato. :D

Neue Ziel
Posted - 2007.06.09 07:29:00 - [434]
 

I think the following sums up my own take on it and some of the (excellent) ideas people are coming up with:

1. Nine players handle all allegations of corruption and cheating and other wise handle player grievances: This may or may not work. You'd have to elect exceptional individuals who wouldn't bow to peer pressure. If such a player joins a major alliance wouldn't they ignore such complaints adverse to their cause?

2. Independent auditing: This is a MUST; and it needs to be random and unannounced.

3. A clear code of conduct for CCP employees playing the game:
CCP developers should be allowed to play their game but *like everyone else* on a regular player account. Their identities as developers should be kept secret from the public and if discovered the character should like an outed spy, change their identity and disappear. Yes, that sucks but that's the price of being one of the guys who makes the magic.
If they log in as a Developer with all the requisite powers it should be a Jovian character with DEV in flashing neon letters over their head so their is no doubt; Again; ex-blizzard guy's "Berlin wall" should apply here. If players know the guy is a developer the temptation to cheat to help his friends and the appearance of corruption will always be there. Further; the developer who joins a major alliance where such allegations are likely to arise should be required to report their membership/actions to the auditors/player council. These are the only people who need to know who the developers are in their player persona.





Christopher Scott
Blue Republic
Posted - 2007.06.09 07:44:00 - [435]
 

How does one audit a one-of-a-kind database using one-of-a-kind developer tools that nobody knows how to use but the developers themselves?

I'm sorry, but this is akin to me designing the very first time machine, and then telling someone else to break it down and tell me what I did wrong. It makes absolutely no sense.

This isn't some suite of Microsoft or other branded tools that gets licensed out to many different companies. This is a completely homegrown, built from the ground up, dynamic database that the developers created themselves along with the tools that go with it.

There's nobody else in the entire world that will know how anything works unless CCP shows them how it works. And that, is the fatal flaw.

This "Auditing Committee" is nothing but a silly PR stunt, which was not only released before any real criticism hit the forums, but was also given exclusive commentary by BoB themselves. If that isn't the definition of irony, then who knows?

/endrant


Sral TBear
Shipwreck cove
Posted - 2007.06.09 08:08:00 - [436]
 

deffently a interesting aproatch to atleast have some "open" koncept towards us players. This one i will follow closely, but for the idea i gibe thumps up :)

For the bloody warm weather here im thumps down....Thought i lived in Scandinavia not Burning hot Egypt


Liv Dawn
PPN United
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.06.09 11:38:00 - [437]
 

What i am wondring about is why many people imediatly start complaining about such issues. for gods sake try to think out of ccps position once. they realised that there been problems with some of their staff trying to tweak ingame things. they reacted and tried to answer things more transparent after the t20 incident. recent "allegations" made them even to release "facts" from the investigations. the last step which is missing is an independant committee trying to judge about it. and this is what they are trying without having someone who had forced them to, just because they think that this is the only way to react on the accusations made. besides many forget that they are always in the doubtet position. normally the one who raises an issue has to "proof or stfu" but in ccps case they have "to proof or i quit."

i cant understand such approaches and i think for a company they do quite okay, for those who run around screaming better go playing wow, they dont listen to you at all. the only lil problem which stays is that elections will clearly favor those electing most organised and i doubt that 9 goons would be able to ask the right questions or look at the things which aint presented. so mebbe you want to elect out of different playergroups - emipre playes, alliance members, non alliance members, players with this and that unique attribute to prevent that.

my 2 or 3 cents. :)

John McFly
Ganja Labs
Pure.
Posted - 2007.06.09 12:45:00 - [438]
 

It would also be good if devs/GMs/ISD were limited to a published code of honor in addition to being prohibited from using devtools in the aid of their corpmates.

For example:
None of their alts could be used as spies against other corporations. No scouting via Jove ship.
No divulging dev/GM/ISD status.
No sharing of shady-but-not-an-exploit "features".
No sharing of information learned "at work" about how the server mechanics work.
No leadership of major region-consuming 0.0 alliances.
Etc

sartorii
Genco
Posted - 2007.06.09 22:43:00 - [439]
 

/me wonders what CCP's CMMI level is..

agreed its a step, and a nice idea, but I too wonder about the qualifications of those who have the idle time to fly to Iceland to audit for a GAME they play...

I could not do it (but would love to) I'm not sure the opinion and 'evaluation' of most of those who could will hold much weight.

I'd rather see a 3rd party Company do it, with published results. As well as having a full review/disclosure of CCPs internal audits and clear Conflict of Interest Policy published (and STRICTLY ENFORCED at the slightest 'bending') for its employee's and their in game participation.

My concern was NEVER that CCP as a company was rigging the game, but that individuals inside the company could easily have "outside agenda's" other than providing the gaming enviroment. The apparent lax attitude (and unprecedented one in most MMORGs) towards employee's being involved in Gaming politics at a very high level only promotes the perception of 'self interest' vs 'customer interests'.

As long as employees are allowed to participate with player corps and alliances you will ALWAYS have a means to an 'unfair advantage'.

Even disclosing patch changes and effects prior to public release can give a major strategic advantage to those who know how to use it.. (buy/sell early/pre train skill reqs etc.. the number of possible abuses from insider info is staggering)

Insider Trading is a serious offense in RL for a reason. It can have a major unbalancing affect on any market/operation. Given the scope of Eve (and the fact that it IS mostly a Market Simulation at heart) CCP needs a clear policy and punishment for those caught violating Conflict of Interest rules.


Sam Bacon
KAOS.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.06.09 23:12:00 - [440]
 

Originally by: illusha
Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously.


Professionals from an outside firm aswell as the starcraft players ... best of both worlds?

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.09 23:19:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: News
This won't be an election. This will be a popularity contest. A silly one at that.


The definition of all elections.

Sera Hadari
Kodaku Industries
Posted - 2007.06.09 23:49:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: illusha
Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas.


Quote:
So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee.


Quote:
The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCP’s operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States.


Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility.

Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED"

Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again!


Agreed in full. What the hell is going on these days. Neutral

Hammer Judge
Southern Cross Incorporated
Angels Of Discord
Posted - 2007.06.10 00:18:00 - [443]
 

It's not hard to only select gamers who have some qualifications to audit a company in these matters.

It's ridiculous to assume CCP would allow a bunch of trailer trash to audit them, let alone to stand for election in the first place.

They would have to include a vetting of electoral applicants in order for this to make sense. Candidates with a business or public sector background, for example, in process design or governance would be good.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2007.06.10 01:18:00 - [444]
 

Edited by: Richard Aiel on 10/06/2007 01:20:37
lol i said that earlier...

If you can afford to take that time off to go to Iceland and chill with ppl from a game you play, yer in a higher tax bracket than I (and the majority of players Id assume). Or you're in a job that doesnt require you to select your vacation days 6 months in advance (like I do)...

Originally by: Hammer Judge
It's not hard to only select gamers who have some qualifications to audit a company in these matters.

It's ridiculous to assume CCP would allow a bunch of trailer trash to audit them, let alone to stand for election in the first place.

They would have to include a vetting of electoral applicants in order for this to make sense. Candidates with a business or public sector background, for example, in process design or governance would be good.


THAT in itself would be interesting to figure out... how do you do this exactly? How do you prove that you HAVE these degrees??

Yeah... i got the basic US High School (Diploma)Degree... and BTH, other than getting a photocopy of this I dont really know how Id prove I have even that...

Yankee Rebellion
Posted - 2007.06.10 04:36:00 - [445]
 

Edited by: Yankee Rebellion on 10/06/2007 04:36:58
Originally by: Ridley Tree
They should scrap the idea, hire some real auditors and not depend on the stupidity of the general population to elect people completely unsuitable to do the job to go there. That they are willing to go this far indicates they are most likely innocent. But that they want to use player elected people to do so is... well odd. Great so we go and elect a bunch of non-computer code literate people who can be shoved around and won't know if what they're seeing is normal or not.

I mean really are these people we elect going to be given complete access to all of EVE's files and logs. Are they going to spend days pouring over them looking for problems or corruption? Come on.


/signed
Out of the nine sent to this happy little beer-fest, one or two might have some small idea of what they should be looking for. At least five will be rabid fanbois looking for swag and two won't be able to do anything but stare at the women working there.

Let's face it, people, Billy Bob the plumber from Oklahoma is not going to help this situation.

Crap.... wrong character - Yankee Uprising

Tyanni
V I R I I
Posted - 2007.06.10 06:28:00 - [446]
 

Whilest the orginal idea of this thread (The whole having a selected amount of players go over to CCP HQ now and then to keep tabs on things) isn't a bad idea and at least a step into reassuring the fayth of what now is the greater population of the eve community, it has its drawbacks...

Devs/Employee's can easily cover up any misconduct before selected players arrive at CCP HQ, covering up any tracks that would otherwise harm their career.
Those selected could be from BoB or any BoB pets/renters, if they notice something why would they want to public announce it? It would screw them up so why not just turn a blind eye to insure their own personal security?

I'm not one of those complete anti-bob people, whilest I do admitt there are those in BoB I seriously dislike (with a firey passion of hate and anger Twisted Evil) I don't blame the allegations and misconducts on them all. Alot of them are just regular pilots who play the game for the same reasons most of us do. Anyways... The general feel I get is that no BoB, or BoB pet/renter should be allowed to be part of those selected to go over to CCP HQ, to make sure nothing can be brushed aside. Of course that leads to another problem... Those selected might try to conjure something up that will be damaging to BoB as a form to discredit them. So the voting process has to be VERY well thought out.

Also, in response to someone who posted about how we all went on this BoB annihilation campaign... Yes, you are an idiot and a douchebag, I can probally bet you are a BoB pet yourself, some advice here... Don't try and sound all big by saying that we never accomplished what we tried to do. I was down fighting against a BoB pet in Feyth and we were whooping your backsides, it was only until BoB came to save you that we had to pull out, so until you can fight better at defending your own space, shut up. (Btw, I don't remember exactly which renter(s) we were fighting there so don't take that comment as a personal rant at you).

Lastly, about SirMolle's comment on the NYT. Whilest your ultimate goal is to control all of 0.0 space isn't really a bad thing, its totally pointless. I'm not saying you can't do it, but if you do it'll be the end of Eve, quite probally before you even achieve it people will just leave the game by the thousands and poof! There goes the game. I hope you realise that (And CCP for that matter), it just makes you seem heartless, without thought for anyone else's enjoyment (Its a wonder why people don't like you). To CCP: Why should we continue paying for a game that you have preached all this time as being a never ending role play that constantly expands and grows if you allow it to happen? I enjoy this game alot as much as the next person and would like to continue playing it in years to come. You say that you walking around stations, etc will come by the end of 2008... Mind wonders if Eve will still be around then, seems like all your work is just a waste of time atm, its disappointing but I really do hope things work out for the best.

Right, so essay is finished ^_^;; I apologise for it being so big but I rarely post on eve-o forums so I tend to say everything at once Very Happy

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2007.06.10 07:42:00 - [447]
 

Ya know.... they are gonna seriously have to do some kind of psychological screening to the applicant in question too... A Corp member brought up the idea that if he were to go he might do some harm to some ppl there... another poster here advocated the fact that he/she'd "close an eye or two" if they found wrongdoing...

So in fact, whats to stop the wrong guy/girl from getting elected and going postal when he/she get to CCPHQ?

And dont give me the "its just a game" crap... we ALL know how blurred the line can get in the more heated arguments here and we all also know that not EVERYONE on these forums or in this game explicitly understand the difference between IRL and in game.

Maglorre
Posted - 2007.06.12 05:46:00 - [448]
 

Originally by: Serendipity007
Originally by: Maglorre
Originally by: Serendipity007

Stuff about committees and constitutions and... stuff


Have you ever read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinline?


No, should I have?

Could you briefly explain the book?


The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

It's just the scenario you described could have been paraphrased from a part of that book. The book also explains why it would never work Very Happy

Cheers.

Val Dauphen
Devious - Special Forces
Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2007.06.15 04:47:00 - [449]
 

Just to echo what other's have said...

I fail to see how letting 8 or 9 players into the corporate offices for a few days once a year will really help anything. Would the comittee know what to look for? Where to look? Would they even understand what they were seeing? You could make a toxic landfill look like Club Med given a years notice.....especially if it only had to look like one for a few days.

thetraveler
Posted - 2007.07.03 03:01:00 - [450]
 

Edited by: thetraveler on 03/07/2007 03:04:03
Edited by: thetraveler on 03/07/2007 03:03:11
Edited by: thetraveler on 03/07/2007 03:01:19
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.sp?a=topic&threadID=548549
the above thread in this reply was locked and because i hadn't researched the forums , i didn't realize there was so much info on the subject , so my apologies to the mods on not being more complete on looking into this issue a little more beforehand .this thread doesn't connect to proper one Rolling Eyes


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