open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Story in the New York Times.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 ... : last (16)

Author Topic

veritas primus
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:37:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Cipher7

People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA.

They are too strong and nobody can beat them.

If you add a "player oversight process" they will simply accuse the process of being rigged.

People accuse primarily to make themselves feel better, it is an ego booster to console themselves for losing.


Ummm...no ppl hate Bob because they are successful and the vomit this in Eve's face with overwhelming arrogance. Then add in CCP allegations which most entities would keep it on the "down-low" but oh no....they run their mouths in local with MSN garbage, make posts about having strong relationships with Devs, name their ships with [DEVS] in the title, and it goes on...and on...and on...if I were CCP I would have gagged them long ago, and anyone else fueling this junk. But there again....CCP seems to embrace Bob, and Bob embraces back...and you wonder where the community draws their conclussions? LOL...

Judas Lonestar
The Knights Templar
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:37:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Buxaroo
Originally by: Ridley Tree
Originally by: NY Times
in favor of a mighty alliance of players called Band of Brothers.


And the BoB epeen has now reached epic proportions. Laughing

Good work guys, you've made the big time!


/me gets tape measure out

Muwhahahahah!
Muwhahahahaha!
Muwhahahahahah!






If you need another one you can use mine. I never get to use it anyways. Wink

AegriSomnia
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:41:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Judas Lonestar
Fortunately CCP has had plenty of time to cover any evidence they dont want people to see.

And based on some of the posts here most players bought it hook line and sinker. Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom?

Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that.

I can tell you RIGHT NOW how it will end. Committee flies over, committee is given "full" access to already audited logs and files. Committee finds nothing, proclaims CCP to be in the right, everyone is happy.

Brilliant move by CCP really. This is more a PR event then any proof their on the up and up.


I didnt get the impression that this was a one time occourance. I thought it sounded like there would be, at least, annual reviews, maybe even semi-annual.

But for Christs Sake man, this is a game. Enron and Worldcom ruined peoples REAL LIVES. I personally suffered from Enron, being a resident of California. Rolling blackouts are NOT COOL! Everyday, entire cities would lose power for hours, and that included stoplights! CA. trafiic was bad enough without that clusterf*ck. Imagine being at work or school and having everything power down for the rest of the day. I lost a lot of work because of it.

BRAVO, CCP. We look forward to many positive and enjoyable years playing your wonderful game. And if you think its f*ed beyond fixing, why not just leave?

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:46:00 - [274]
 

Democracy failed in real life, why should it work in a science fiction MMO?

You can't possibly elect people from the memberbase who are objective enough to monitor Dev/GM activities. If members from the alliance (BoB/MC/allies) get elected, a good bunch of Coalition members will call them biased, and vice versa. It'll eventually boil down to collecting as much votes as possible to get a free trip to Iceland. Besides, if CCP are orginasing the elections, who can guarantee they'll not be rigged to insure the majority are BoB-affiliated? I personally see no acceptable way for selecting a few players to perform audit on CCP, you can not avoid bias and you can't guarantee it'll be completely honest.

The only way to go is hiring a neutral 3rd party audit company.

AegriSomnia
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:50:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: AegriSomnia on 07/06/2007 18:51:58
Originally by: TWAIN

a really long post full of great points



o/ signed

It has to be a 3rd party professional corp. I understand the initial thought of having players involved, CCP wants its community to know it HONESTLY CARES. But, they do need to look beyond that and see how a 3rd party will be above all of this petty politika and perform a thourough and incontrovertable analysis.


Originally by: Cipher7

People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA.

They are too strong and nobody can beat them.




Your nationalism clouds your reason. I am the most true-blooded American patriot, who lives and dies by his Constitution, but we are not invulnerable, friend. We CAN be defeated, and currently we are, if you haven't noticed.


Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:03:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: AegriSomnia
Originally by: Judas Lonestar
Fortunately CCP has had plenty of time to cover any evidence they dont want people to see.

And based on some of the posts here most players bought it hook line and sinker. Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom?

Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that.

I can tell you RIGHT NOW how it will end. Committee flies over, committee is given "full" access to already audited logs and files. Committee finds nothing, proclaims CCP to be in the right, everyone is happy.

Brilliant move by CCP really. This is more a PR event then any proof their on the up and up.


I didnt get the impression that this was a one time occourance. I thought it sounded like there would be, at least, annual reviews, maybe even semi-annual.

But for Christs Sake man, this is a game. Enron and Worldcom ruined peoples REAL LIVES. I personally suffered from Enron, being a resident of California. Rolling blackouts are NOT COOL! Everyday, entire cities would lose power for hours, and that included stoplights! CA. trafiic was bad enough without that clusterf*ck. Imagine being at work or school and having everything power down for the rest of the day. I lost a lot of work because of it.

BRAVO, CCP. We look forward to many positive and enjoyable years playing your wonderful game. And if you think its f*ed beyond fixing, why not just leave?



This is the problem with the idea... You see, you blame Enron for problems that the State Government caused... People who did not know what they were doing made feel-good laws that caused the problems that led to the rolling blackouts... and they point fingers at Enron... Enron's misdeeds hurt a lot of people and did a lot of bad things, but not every power problem in the last 10 years was caused by Enron, or even Enron's fault. Had Enron been run all legally and above board, California would still have had problems.

While I applaud the idea of a player based oversight group, I see it as a lose-lose thing for CCP, because things will be found lacking with everyone elected or selected to be part of it by people who are too busy looking for someone to blame. Suspicions and conspiracies will be flying… problems, real or imagined will crop up and the forum warriors will be here to stir the pot.

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:09:00 - [277]
 

So I guess people like Dianabolic can also be on the comittee?

CptEav1s
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:15:00 - [278]
 

Lol gotta love at the end how they put that they didn't make the game to win it ugh

Duh they have cool rights becuase they're CCP anyway, and as for my thoughts on the guy who played in BoB, well his mistake he wanted to screw up a good thing and even though it sucks for everyone else he aint around no more so HAHAHAHA to him. Twisted Evil

Big Brain Fart !Shocked

Damon Ra
Caldari
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:17:00 - [279]
 

This is a step in the right direction, however...

Players *cannot* be used to fill the auditing role. You need an unbiased and professional and completely uninvolved 3rd party to do this, and the timing of their inspection/review needs to be completely unannounced to your staff if you expect anyone with half a brain to believe it was done honestly and legitimately.

CCP, stop using volunteers to perform key roles within your company. It may seem like a good idea from a financial standpoint, however you will always get what you pay for.








AegriSomnia
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:26:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Hamfast
Originally by: AegriSomnia

My post full over very on topic and powerful thoughts



This is the problem with the idea... You see, you blame Enron for problems that the State Government caused... People who did not know what they were doing made feel-good laws that caused the problems that led to the rolling blackouts... and they point fingers at Enron... Enron's misdeeds hurt a lot of people and did a lot of bad things, but not every power problem in the last 10 years was caused by Enron, or even Enron's fault. Had Enron been run all legally and above board, California would still have had problems.

While I applaud the idea of a player based oversight group, I see it as a lose-lose thing for CCP, because things will be found lacking with everyone elected or selected to be part of it by people who are too busy looking for someone to blame. Suspicions and conspiracies will be flying… problems, real or imagined will crop up and the forum warriors will be here to stir the pot.


My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud?

It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it.


Jart
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:30:00 - [281]
 

When the latest accusations where levelled at CCP, I thought about posting with a similar idea, but then thought that it would be too difficult for them to achieve. To be honest they have even gone further then I would have suggested, with the trips to Iceland involved.

I think this shows how serious they are about their game and I applaud their bold initiative.

Ridley Tree
Veto.
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:37:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: AegriSomnia

My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud?


I do, and your understanding of the issue is flawed. We haven't had a black out since Enron went down =/= Enron was at fault for the blackouts. The energy situation today is very different than it was then. As are the laws. The State Government created the issues we experienced far more than Enron did.

Enron may or may not have profited greatly from it all. Their financial records at the time indicated their profits remained fairly steady. Their financial records however are shall we say, suspect.

Quote:
It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it.


Who do you hire to audit EVE? A firm like Price Waterhouse Coopers or KPMG doesn't exactly have experience with this kind of thing.

Superbus Maximus
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:43:00 - [283]
 

It seems like a good idea. If it happens or not remains to be seen. Has there been an announcement of how they are going to do the voting?

Habraka
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:47:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Superbus Maximus
It seems like a good idea. If it happens or not remains to be seen. Has there been an announcement of how they are going to do the voting?


I just hope they aren't going to handle it like the Gallente elections.

Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:51:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Ridley Tree

Who do you hire to audit EVE? A firm like Price Waterhouse Coopers or KPMG doesn't exactly have experience with this kind of thing.


I would imagine they could quickly learn and then do so professionally and within the scope of the requested investigation.

The 9 players? Well, we have yet to see, don't we?

Understand, though, CCP -- my account remains cancelled until the results of this "oversight committee." Simply announcing one does little.

Using a professional auditing company would be acceptable as well, if not even more of an assurance.

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:52:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: AegriSomnia
Originally by: Hamfast
Originally by: AegriSomnia

My post full over very on topic and powerful thoughts



This is the problem with the idea... You see, you blame Enron for problems that the State Government caused... People who did not know what they were doing made feel-good laws that caused the problems that led to the rolling blackouts... and they point fingers at Enron... Enron's misdeeds hurt a lot of people and did a lot of bad things, but not every power problem in the last 10 years was caused by Enron, or even Enron's fault. Had Enron been run all legally and above board, California would still have had problems.

While I applaud the idea of a player based oversight group, I see it as a lose-lose thing for CCP, because things will be found lacking with everyone elected or selected to be part of it by people who are too busy looking for someone to blame. Suspicions and conspiracies will be flying… problems, real or imagined will crop up and the forum warriors will be here to stir the pot.


My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud?

It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it.




Yes, we do agree on the Audit part...

California passed laws that limited the price that could be charged for electricity... but only to the end users... they passed laws that made almost impossible to build or mantain power production within the state... they did nothing to control the price that could be charged for electricity that the power providers had to buy to cover the growing need in California (because they could not)... hence the power providers went out of business/left the state... the blackouts stopped when the state removed the artifial cost limits and raised your prices to cover the cost of the power. Prior to that increase, you were paying far less for electricity then the rest of the country, less then the cost required to furnish that power... so power companies sold their power to those that were willing to pay for it. It just so happened that Enron crashed and burned around that same time, but it was California Laws that caused your problems...

My living in Texas (not in California) has nothing to do with it...

George Petsch
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:53:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: veritas primus
Originally by: Cipher7

People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA.

They are too strong and nobody can beat them.

If you add a "player oversight process" they will simply accuse the process of being rigged.

People accuse primarily to make themselves feel better, it is an ego booster to console themselves for losing.


Ummm...no ppl hate Bob because they are successful and the vomit this in Eve's face with overwhelming arrogance. Then add in CCP allegations which most entities would keep it on the "down-low" but oh no....they run their mouths in local with MSN garbage, make posts about having strong relationships with Devs, name their ships with [DEVS] in the title, and it goes on...and on...and on...if I were CCP I would have gagged them long ago, and anyone else fueling this junk. But there again....CCP seems to embrace Bob, and Bob embraces back...and you wonder where the community draws their conclussions? LOL...


It's called psycological warfare, however, at the expense of the game/ccp.
But then again, the end justifies the means Confused

Cosy
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:55:00 - [288]
 

dear CCP where is your official post whit ?


FIRST !!!! on MMORPG industry

Da'iel Zehn
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.07 19:56:00 - [289]
 

The New York Times! Wow!

rolaand
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:00:00 - [290]
 

Quote:
In Eve, however, there is only one game world, and there are routinely 30,000 people within it at one time. And while a serious World of Warcraft guild might have 50 members, major alliances in Eve have thousands of members.


just this lil quote from the article is enough for me to know the writer doesn't really know squat.

Herculite
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:07:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: AegriSomnia

My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud?

It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it.




Your understanding is wrong, and by living in California your understanding of how politics work will be wrong by default :)

California's biggest problem is that they refused to allow new powerplants to be built pretending to be green, and also grossly over payed. Its a big reason why you have the gonverantor right now instead what whatshisname. The funny thing about California was that some factories shut down and sold their alloted power back to the government since they made more money doing that than running their factories.

It was government missmanagment that caused California's problems, not Enron or any other energy reseller.

And yes this has now taken on a massive tangent from the OP, but seems to somehow apply to how well such an audit system will work.


Jin So
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:10:00 - [292]
 

My only problem is that why did we have to find out about this by reading The New York Times? It makes sense to let your paid subscribers know before going public with something like that will have an impact on the community.


MrTripps
Gallente
Hedonistic Squirrels
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:13:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Herculite
It was government missmanagment that caused California's problems, not Enron or any other energy reseller.



Yes it was.

Habraka
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:14:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Jin So
My only problem is that why did we have to find out about this by reading The New York Times? It makes sense to let your paid subscribers know before going public with something like that will have an impact on the community.




It's CCP we're talking about Wink.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:15:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: AegriSomnia

My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud?

It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it.




Your understanding is wrong, and by living in California your understanding of how politics work will be wrong by default :)

California's biggest problem is that they refused to allow new powerplants to be built pretending to be green, and also grossly over payed. Its a big reason why you have the gonverantor right now instead what whatshisname. The funny thing about California was that some factories shut down and sold their alloted power back to the government since they made more money doing that than running their factories.

It was government missmanagment that caused California's problems, not Enron or any other energy reseller.

And yes this has now taken on a massive tangent from the OP, but seems to somehow apply to how well such an audit system will work.




Actually I do recall accusations at the time that Enron got a few powerplants to go into 'maintenance' i.e. shutdown to help fuel the shortage. Then, with lacking interstate transport capability and insufficient reserve capacity for the high demand, rolling blackouts ensued. But I admit I live about 10,000 miles away and my memory might be a bit foggy after all this time.

As for the subject at hand Very Happy. Ok, I can understand people still being sceptical. Of course, to some extent I am still sceptical as well.

But at a certain point you have to be able to put your own scepticism aside, at least for a while and see how CCP handles it. Excessive naysaying before even the details of how they're gonna do it are known is a bit silly.

You're accusing CCP of failing to do something properly which they have just announced, and are nowhere near implementation yet. Lets just see what they do, follow it critically (but with an open mind) and see if we like how it turns out. If we don't, the pitchforks are behind the barn, we can always go pick them up and storm the fortress again AFTER they screw it up Wink

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:19:00 - [296]
 

Quote:
So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee.

The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCP’s operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States.


Vote for me! Twisted Evil

Prof Weirdo
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:21:00 - [297]
 


This looks like a PR move to me. If they had banned 5 or 6 accounts and fired a couple employees, I would say they were serious. I am not sure what good giving 9 people a guided tour of their offices with milk and cookies will do. These people would need to be in the software/management fields and familiar with CCP's procedures and software to do any good. Even then, they would need to stay there for extended time periods. The lengths they will go to to avoid the obvious solution(dev's and employees quit playing on Tranquility) is amazing. They are more addicted to this game than the Bob meta gamers who play 20 hours a day. Hmm...well they may be actually the same people.

Gavin Inzutaku
EntroPraetorian WraithTemplars
EntroPraetorian Aegis
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:24:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Sakura Nihil
If we're going to do this democratically, one thing we need to keep in mind is that it will require regular, albeit infrequent, elections. This should not be a one-time "you're in forever" club, representatives will need to be held accountable for their oversight or lack thereof. If we don't realize this, we'll end up creating a new and familiar problem, the issue of credibility of an oversight group (this time Internal Affairs, next our representatives). Too much time spent with the organization you are supposed to be monitoring may increase your bias, so we need to keep them true with the possibility of them being replaced by us.

With regards to the theory that each of the 9 largest alliances should be represented, I strongly disagree. As important as BoB, the Goons, RA, and everyone else up on the numbers list thinks the are, they're still only a fraction of EVE, the 0.0 territorialist alliances - a significant demographic? Yes, but a dominating one? No - I have no doubt that they will use their power bloc to get endorsed candidates elected, and that's fine, as it is one vote per account/owner and this is the concept of popular representation. But, your interests are only a part of EVE's population, and the rest of us should have a say of who goes on that council as we're paying customers.

Did I just do a "No taxation without representation" thing? Lol, internet first Laughing?


/agreed

zykerx
Vrix Nation
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:26:00 - [299]
 

all pretty pointless except for the pr and for the 9 players that will have a free funn trip

but trust wont get solved with this, its not like those players can see all info anyway

pylons38
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:29:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: pylons38 on 07/06/2007 20:28:42
Unless you know where to dig, you won't find anything that will prove that CCP is dirty. Simple as that.

edit: spelling


Pages: first : previous : ... 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 ... : last (16)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only