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blankseplocked A year later, warp to zero.
 
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.06.05 06:34:00 - [121]
 

I started 6 months ago, I sure as heck couldn't imagine this game with warp to 0, just wish autopilot used it be default. Sorry Nero, but with how long it takes to move from gates with any ship depending on how unaligned you come out, its still very possible to catch small ships. (I have been quite a few times, in fact sadly.Sad)

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.06.05 06:40:00 - [122]
 

warp to zero made life alot less painful

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:09:00 - [123]
 

Quote:
Serious question, what protection is it exactly you speak of, that is available in low sec but not 0.0 for pirates? Last I checked anyone could shoot me without fear of the gate guns anywhere.

Or did you just mean that you can't manage to organize an aliance blob to go into low sec to help you kill the pirate that just took you lunch minerals?




Errm Why would you think i mine lol. the protection is that most people in low sec are not wanting to take the security hit for killing people, and by simply looking at people in local you can pretty much KNOW if anyone is around that might attack you, if there is you move to another system....in 0.0 near everyone might attack you and traveling around might get you stuck in a bubble...something that will NEVER happen in the safety of low sec will it?

I mean surely you are not suggesting sentry guns are a real threat are you LOLZ!

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:12:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 05/06/2007 08:13:24
Quote:
You'd have to be an eejit not to use the tools you're given. Its a whole different thing to playing a game with thrilling rules.



Isn't that EXACTLY the point? so before we all meta gamed with insta's because only a eejit would not use those tools that are in game. The difference is the waste of time to manage them, and the immense strain they put on the server. so if you would using insta BM before and now have WTZ exactly what part of the thrill are you missing again since in both cases you warped onto the gate to jump.... Oh ya nothing.

Again if you want to insist you didn;t use insta BM when they were available before declining on using all the tools the game offers, I am not seeing why you feel compelled to use WTZ now... you were'nt compelled to use insta BM before when they were easily available but you are for using WTZ /boggle ....

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:22:00 - [125]
 

Ok, I'll come clean. I'M Nanobotter, I have a carebear alt that I use to troll threads like these to make carebears seem even worse than they are - it makes arguments easier to win.

I'm being serious, I use Nanobotter to make the opposite side of an argument look really bad so nobody takes them seriously. Everybody in this thread now hates pro-WTZ people purely because Nanobotter is on their side, and he's such an unlikeable little imbecile.

I come clean. I'll not do it again. ISD, could you please ban Nanobotter so I'm not tempted to use him again?

Theronnos
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:29:00 - [126]
 

tbh, after I came back from a short break, I also started wondering about this change. Ever since it has gone life I don't even think about pirates any more. Even the change that you see a gatecamp is very very small, and if you do see one they don't do anything because your to fast. I'm not sure how this works with battleships, but with a battlecruiser your to fast.
And once your in 0.0 your safe anyways.. so all in all, I just travel withour worry. No stress and very quick..

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:35:00 - [127]
 

Quote:
Ok, I'll come clean. I'M Nanobotter, I have a carebear alt that I use to troll threads like these to make carebears seem even worse than they are - it makes arguments easier to win.

I'm being serious, I use Nanobotter to make the opposite side of an argument look really bad so nobody takes them seriously. Everybody in this thread now hates pro-WTZ people purely because Nanobotter is on their side, and he's such an unlikeable little imbecile.

I come clean. I'll not do it again. ISD, could you please ban Nanobotter so I'm not tempted to use him again?



Funny thing is this is what you end up with when you are simply wrong and out debated. there really is no argument which is plausible to remove WTZ or even pretend it was bad when the entire history of EVE always had the abilty through bookmarks. It isn;t what you want to hear I know so you dislike me , but reality is it is a fact. I know you want to beleive that warp to 15km was some kind of magical historical way EVE was ment to be played but you are wrong. Originally EVE warped you to 3km from the gate I beleive, they later changed it to 15km. After extensive debate it became clear WTZ was immensly a better option that staying with BM's that simply did the ame thing but added insane server stress.

Seriously go hate on CCP they made the senseful change not me, or go hate logic.


No hey let's play in your imaginary world. Yes YOU ARE RIGHT NEURO, WTZ ruined EVE, everything exciting is gone, noone ever used BM's and the game was soooo much more exciting, as you slow boated to a gate with 7 insta locking sniping BS pre aligned to run away popped your ass! gosh how intense it was!!!, but now I can;t go anywhere since I am only allowed to WTZ i can;t even warp to 15km if i wanted to for the rush! EvE used to feel so big but now i can go 30 jumps in 45 seconds!!!


Wait who is the troll again... oh ya you.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:38:00 - [128]
 

Quote:
Even the change that you see a gatecamp is very very small, and if you do see one they don't do anything because your to fast.



I don't think WTZ altered gate camps at all your not to fast because they camp the exit side where WTZ has NIL impact. The times you do hit the enter side of a gate camp ya with WTZ you are safe, but you were safe before with a insta BM anyways... I do realize alot of people did not use BM's but ALOT did, and it is a pretty stupid way to stratify your player base imho. Regardless in the end BM's were killing the performance of EVE it was the only real option imho, I mean they could have went back to 3km instead I suppose.

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:58:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter
Funny thing is this is what you end up with when you are simply wrong and out debated.


Nobody has bothered to actually refute any of my points. They've just stated their opinion and gone 'no WTZ is better. Just because. It makes my life easier, isn't that reason enough?'

Originally by: Nanobotter
there really is no argument which is plausible to remove WTZ or even pretend it was bad when the entire history of EVE always had the abilty through bookmarks.


Again the claim that everybody used BMs all the time to every gate and that they were easy to use and infallible. Also I've given plausible arguments, you haven't bothered refuting them.

Originally by: Nanobotter
It isn;t what you want to hear I know so you dislike me


But you're ME! I don't hate me, I'm awesome.

Originally by: Nanobotter
but reality is it is a fact.


Fact != Opinion

I can admit that my argument is based on opinion - the opinion that removing WTZ would make the game better, backed up with points why.

All pro-WTZ people seem to be saying is that 'WTZ is better than instas and make my life easier'. That's their entire point. All of it.

Originally by: Nanobotter
I know you want to beleive that warp to 15km was some kind of magical historical way EVE was ment to be played but you are wrong.


No it's my opinion. And at least some devs from CCPs opinion too, since they SAID that was supposed to be how EVE was played.

Originally by: Nanobotter
Originally EVE warped you to 3km from the gate I beleive,


No.

Originally by: Nanobotter
they later changed it to 15km.


No.

Originally by: Nanobotter
After extensive debate it became clear WTZ was immensly a better option that staying with BM's that simply did the ame thing but added insane server stress.


Yup, I already said this.

Originally by: Nanobotter
Seriously go hate on CCP they made the senseful change not me, or go hate logic.


Hate is a strong word. And senseful isn't even a word.

I believe CCP sold out/have no backbone/are stupid. One of the three. I was kind of banking on a fourth option, they're taking their time making the right decision, but apparently that aint the case.

Originally by: Nanobotter
No hey let's play in your imaginary world.


You mean EVE?

Originally by: Nanobotter
Yes YOU ARE RIGHT NEURO,


It's Nero.

Originally by: Nanobotter
WTZ ruined EVE,


Thanks for agreeing.

Originally by: Nanobotter
everything exciting is gone,


Well I don't know, mining is pretty exciting...

Originally by: Nanobotter
noone ever used BM's


Really? You might want to check that, as I've already said they did. Me too, for that matter.

Originally by: Nanobotter
and the game was soooo much more exciting, as you slow boated to a gate with 7 insta locking sniping BS pre aligned to run away popped your ass!


Soooo much better than getting ganked after you lagged jumping INTO a system and didn't even have the option of slow-boating it back to the gate because you didn't fit for speed because you can WTZ, of course.

Originally by: Nanobotter
gosh how intense it was!!!


Ritalin is not candy.

Originally by: Nanobotter
but now I can;t go anywhere since I am only allowed to WTZ i can;t even warp to 15km if i wanted to for the rush! EvE used to feel so big but now i can go 30 jumps in 45 seconds!!!


Think long and hard on my previous post, and how posts like this help my argument. Or I can simplify it for you if that helps;

You = Pro-WTZ.

You = Acting like dumbass.

Ergo, Pro-WTZ = Dumbass.

Originally by: Nanobotter
Wait who is the troll again... oh ya you.


Yeah, I was just trying to incite flames with my reasoned argument and debate.

Dammit, that must make ANYONE that disagrees with anyone else a troll huh?

Moron.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:27:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Nero Scuro


Moron.




Signed signed signed!

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.05 10:26:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 05/06/2007 08:13:24
Quote:
You'd have to be an eejit not to use the tools you're given. Its a whole different thing to playing a game with thrilling rules.



Isn't that EXACTLY the point? so before we all meta gamed with insta's because only a eejit would not use those tools that are in game. The difference is the waste of time to manage them, and the immense strain they put on the server. so if you would using insta BM before and now have WTZ exactly what part of the thrill are you missing again since in both cases you warped onto the gate to jump.... Oh ya nothing.

Again if you want to insist you didn;t use insta BM when they were available before declining on using all the tools the game offers, I am not seeing why you feel compelled to use WTZ now... you were'nt compelled to use insta BM before when they were easily available but you are for using WTZ /boggle ....


Ah, but you're forgetting one vital point- I had laziness on my side before. To make an insta route, I'd have had to warp to every gate on the route, at an angle from every destination on the route, and slow boat 15 km behind said gate. For a straight forward 25 gate route, thats 50 gates to do, with 750km worth of slow boating, (let alone if you were to then test it to see if it works); all of this in unprotected low security space. Alternatively I could spend god knows how many million isk on a purchased region set, and spend 20 minutes watching them do the copy-one-every-15-seconds routine. Its remarkably easy to not do something like that for every star system you ever travel in, and just play with the tools that are immediately available.

Its not so tempting to click "warp to" and have to pass over the "0km", "5km" and "10km" options, voluntarily, and select "15km" from the middle of the list.

As I said, theres a difference between being presented a game with an exciting and risky set of rules, and taking a game with no risks and just making up some of your own.

Tolomea
Gallente
5th Front enterprises
New Eve Order
Posted - 2007.06.05 11:38:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul


I like and approve warp to zero, but I don't argue that some of the argument against have some value. But moving the danger from the jump in to the jump out is totally wrong for 1 single reason you have perfectly pointed
Quote:
make it possible to actually lock down a gate so no one gets through
.

That is the biggest reason against the proposed change. It will lock entire regions at the chocke points, without chance of move throug thank to sthealt instead of brute force.

So the only metod of entry in those regions will become gettin there the bigger blob.

Not an improvement


you need to consider a little what the inability to lock down choke points means in practice

the modern blob is made of capitals, 1 ceptor gets through your gate camp and you now have the potential for a captial fleet inside your front lines, combine that with the very very rapid transit time of a ceptor with warp to zero and that means you are vulnerable anywhere anytime

Brucette
Posted - 2007.06.05 11:47:00 - [133]
 

Please.

Think of the poor unloved gate rats that everyone ignores.

milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated
Posted - 2007.06.05 14:38:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: milinkoee on 05/06/2007 14:37:27
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Quote:
Serious question, what protection is it exactly you speak of, that is available in low sec but not 0.0 for pirates? Last I checked anyone could shoot me without fear of the gate guns anywhere.

Or did you just mean that you can't manage to organize an aliance blob to go into low sec to help you kill the pirate that just took you lunch minerals?



Errm Why would you think i mine lol. the protection is that most people in low sec are not wanting to take the security hit for killing people, and by simply looking at people in local you can pretty much KNOW if anyone is around that might attack you, if there is you move to another system....in 0.0 near everyone might attack you and traveling around might get you stuck in a bubble...something that will NEVER happen in the safety of low sec will it?

I mean surely you are not suggesting sentry guns are a real threat are you LOLZ!


You completely ignored the question.

As a -10 pirate anyone can shoot me anywhere. Low sec or 0.0. So how is me being in low sec make it safer for me? What is this "protection" that you claim is afforded to pirates in low sec, that somehow isn't the same as in 0.0?

My point was simply that it is in fact the reverse. In low sec at least anyone attacking a pirate might have the guns on their side.



milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated
Posted - 2007.06.05 14:41:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Theronnos
tbh, after I came back from a short break, I also started wondering about this change. Ever since it has gone life I don't even think about pirates any more. Even the change that you see a gatecamp is very very small, and if you do see one they don't do anything because your to fast. I'm not sure how this works with battleships, but with a battlecruiser your to fast.
And once your in 0.0 your safe anyways.. so all in all, I just travel withour worry. No stress and very quick..


Please bring your battlecruiser my way ;-)

FarScape III
Journey On Squad
Posted - 2007.06.05 14:45:00 - [136]
 

Gate Camping is the PvP you expect in a game? Are you telling me THAT is fun? Is that what you paid for?

Adaris
E X I U S
Posted - 2007.06.05 14:50:00 - [137]
 

It isn't 'Warp to 0' when I warp in to the gate at 2,561m! LIES!!!!!!!11!!!one!

Trevedian
Amarr
Shaolin Monks
Posted - 2007.06.05 16:03:00 - [138]
 

Warp to zero makes corp wars and empire PVP very difficult... Its convenient, and speeds up the game, yet makes it less eventful and more boring.


Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 18:26:00 - [139]
 

Quote:
You completely ignored the question.

As a -10 pirate anyone can shoot me anywhere. Low sec or 0.0. So how is me being in low sec make it safer for me? What is this "protection" that you claim is afforded to pirates in low sec, that somehow isn't the same as in 0.0?


No I didn't you ignored the answer, you get to travel around safely in low sec, because you never have to worry about jumping a gate only to find a bubble camp on the other side.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 18:33:00 - [140]
 

Quote:
Again the claim that everybody used BMs all the time to every gate and that they were easy to use and infallible. Also I've given plausible arguments, you haven't bothered refuting them.



Well it is semantics in one post i CLEARLY said not everyone used BM's, but that is a pretty lame way to stratify the player base isnt it? Eventually anyone serious about eve ends up using bookmarks, they were infallible by the way. There were a pain hte arse to use, but it didn;t mean you didn;t use them, and that is a terrible arguement. An important part of the game is to make the features acceisble with a very user friendly application. You really haven;t given a single plausible argument, beyond not everyone had BM's, which I addressed as that is a terrible way to stratisfy the player base. Especially since CCP at the end had made copying BM's extremely painful.


Your welcome to keep posting your drama but it doesn;t change that the game is better now than before for the vast majority of players which means it was a good change end of story that is a FACT.

PS im a pretty sure you are wrong eve was not always defacto warp to 15km it was changed to 15km at one point.

Again you are welcome to your opinion, but when the vast majority of player enjoy a change to the game it becomes a good change regardless if you like it or not.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.05 18:38:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

Your welcome to keep posting your drama but it doesn;t change that the game is better now than before for the vast majority of players which means it was a good change end of story that is a FACT.

Again you are welcome to your opinion, but when the vast majority of player enjoy a change to the game it becomes a good change regardless if you like it or not.


Unfortunately, I think I have to agree with you there. Personally, I dislike the change. I really do. I wish CCP had never done it. BUT, the overwhelming public majority does seem to feel that it was a good change. And when you get right down to it, if it's what I want vs. what 50k other people want, it's a no brainer as to which is the right answer.

Doesn't stop me whinging about not getting my way, though Wink

Quote:

PS im a pretty sure you are wrong eve was not always defacto warp to 15km it was changed to 15km at one point.


Thats news to me. As far as I know, its been 15km since the day of the official launch, seeing as I'm told the first ever instas were invented during Beta. I could be wrong though.

hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Posted - 2007.06.05 18:42:00 - [142]
 

I am disgusted quite frankly.

I couldn't care less about the traveling aspect of it, i care about combat. And not about pirates-camping-low-sec combat, but about real player vs player combat where both sides are willing participants.

Before, if an inty (or Vaga) was scouting the gate at a distance (150km +), he was committed to either leave (to a safespot or elsewhere) or engage. Now, they can simply warp to 0 to gate and escape. Before, they would have to fly at least 15km to gate after warp, and even though inties and Vagas can cover that very quick, it was enough for the defending forces to take them out if they are fitted well.

Granted, this was still possible if the scouting pilot had the correct inline instas, but that required prior preparation, but now everyone and his cousin can do it, taking the "homefield" and "prior preparation" advantage away.

Same for safespots. Previously, for people bouncing around on different safespots it was risky to warp to gate to attempt to escape, cause they would need to fly 15km. Now, people jump in, bounce around, and safely warp to 0 to a gate. Once again an inline safespot could circumvent that, and once again, that would require prior-preparation. But with WTZ any homefield advantage is lost.

Many more examples like the above exist.

CCP removed BMs saying that would fix lag... well, i don't see improvements in lag reduction at all.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.06.05 18:59:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2


Your welcome to keep posting your drama but it doesn;t change that the game is better now than before for the vast majority of players which means it was a good change end of story that is a FACT.

...

Again you are welcome to your opinion, but when the vast majority of player enjoy a change to the game it becomes a good change regardless if you like it or not.


This is a good point. Though one thing to keep in mind is that people are notoriously bad at predicting what will make them most happy in the medium-to-long term. Or, to look at it another way, it could be that a disproportionate amount of the people who love this change are not going to stick around a game like EVE for very long in any case. So a short term positive for the majority can end up a long term negative for the majority.

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong though. I just think the undeniable truth behind your statement is more ambiguous than it appears right on the surface.

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.05 19:04:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Andrue on 05/06/2007 19:03:36
Originally by: hydraSlav
CCP removed BMs saying that would fix lag... well, i don't see improvements in lag reduction at all.
CCP said no such thing. They said that BMs were a major cause of lag and that removing them would reduce the load on the servers.

Immediately after they were removed there was a noticeable improvement in game performance so they were right.

Unfortunately more features and players were added to the game and more recently hardware issues have reared their head. As a result there has been an increase in lag but the important point is we don't know how bad the lag would be if we still had instas.

The fact that we are currently running quite well (ignoring abberations like Jita/Saila/Motsu/Blob battles) on reduced hardware is very impressive. It suggests to me that something CCP did over the last year has been a serious step in the right direction. I imagine that the removal of instas is part of that.

milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated
Posted - 2007.06.05 19:20:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: milinkoee on 05/06/2007 19:22:41
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

No I didn't you ignored the answer, you get to travel around safely in low sec, because you never have to worry about jumping a gate only to find a bubble camp on the other side.


Well this is the first time you provided that answer to my question.

Anyway, since I mainly fly a BS or BC you don't need a bubble to grab me. When I fly into 0.0 I always use a scout, especially around choke points. So once again, there is nothing inherently more dangerous in 0.0 than in low sec. The main reason "pirates" camp in low sec instead of 0.0 isn't because of 0.0 is more dangerous, but because low sec is more profitable, due to more targets.

Plus an alliance bubble in 0.0 is basically the same thing as a pirate gate camp in low sec, just a semantic difference, and the fact that they can shoot neutrals without gate gun retribution or sec hits.

I still don't understand why you can't bring your blob to low sec to hunt pirates. You won't take a sec hit and the gate guns won't shoot "you" either. Is it just that you are lazy?Razz

BTW, I agree with you that WTZ is a good thing, and I am a pirate.


CaosSpinner
Posted - 2007.06.05 20:14:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: CaosSpinner on 05/06/2007 20:27:02
Edited by: CaosSpinner on 05/06/2007 20:25:58
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: CaosSpinner
Originally by: Nero Scuro
STUFF quote]

First off, we had WTZ from beta to 2004, but there was no gate to gate jumps.

Instas were adapted for gate jumping once the gate camp EXPLOIT started. Thats right EVE was not originally desigend to allow gate camps so all that CCP did was restore a bit of balance back. It was that or remove the gate camp exploit, which do you think would have caused more whineage?Rolling Eyes

Also keep in mind that we used to have the super highway system, 10 jumps from anywhere in empire and 0.0 had 5x the entry points. So we did travel faster back then. I could go into a lot more detail but that would just be




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Gate camps are exploits! HAHAHA! That's ****ing hilarious! You should become a comedian. Laughing

Also - no and fail. CCP said themselves that gate camping is a legitimate form of gameplay and that instas were an exploit that became too popular to start banning people for.


Learn your game history. No it was not originaly that way, in fact the GMs actually got togather and tryed to break up the the first big game camps. Keep in mind that there was a max load of 4000+/- players at the time so not wanting to loose any customers and as it was just one (1) region at the time they allowed the gate camping to continue for a while unitl they finaly had enough and transfered the gate campers all across the universe. This was quite funny at the time because back the the sec security was working and since most of the campers were -8 and below they could not enter empire space without concord responding. Thus most of them had a long trip all the way around the rim back to their home system. There is more but thats a diffrent post.

There was a lot more going on at the time so gate camping was ignored by the devs until there was a changing of the guard in CCP and by then it was as comonplace as instas had become. So it moved from an exploit to a feature but that also is a diffrent post.

Also, no warp 15k came later, originaly when you jumped to a system you jumped to a random point then you WTZ to the gate, base etc. This was changed to quite the whinage of the growing Prat population and also corrasponds with a lot of the Devs moving to low sec but that also is another post.


Quote:
Thats news to me. As far as I know, its been 15km since the day of the official launch, seeing as I'm told the first ever instas were invented during Beta. I could be wrong though.


Nope WT15 came as part of the Prat welfare program long after launch. We used instas to ninga mine bisk in ibis and to jump to good roids. Before the moving of the good our out of empire (prat welfare program) the roid fields were huge, they were so large that they often extended across several grids. Thus you would actually have to warp from one side of the field to the other. Finding good ore took a lot of time searching so once you found one you would BM it which allowed you to jump back them. That was the original purpose as we did not need them for anything else, not even safe spots as no one wanted to Fubar their avatars so no one attacked anyone in low sec for a long time. Back then breaking the law ment exile to 0.0 but that is another post.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 20:33:00 - [147]
 

Quote:
I still don't understand why you can't bring your blob to low sec to hunt pirates. You won't take a sec hit and the gate guns won't shoot "you" either. Is it just that you are lazy?


Heh come on it is the same reaosn nobody bother hunting pirates. Eve has some design flaws and once you understand them the effort needed to hunt and kill someone does not come close to justifying the reward.

I don;t need a blob to hunt pirate, but pirates are a small minority in eve. Why would any blob of 20 people want to take the time to travel all the way to hunt down a few mangy pirates who would NEVER dream of fighting you even if it was a fair fight?

Pirates just run away, and they use ships specifically built to do that well.

again you got me confused with someone who dislike pirates. I think pirates are fine and serve a purpose in eve. I also beleive that alot of people who call themselves pirates are simply not pirates, they are low sec greifers who have found safety calling themselves pirates.

I just feel that some changes are needed to differentiate pirates, from the carebear pk greifers who use the term priates to disguise the fact they are weak pk's who hunt pve players.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.06.05 20:38:00 - [148]
 

Quote:
CCP removed BMs saying that would fix lag... well, i don't see improvements in lag reduction at all.



Well you goto keep in mind that if I recall correctly CCP didn;t remove BM's at all. They just added WTZ, people still kept there BM's unless they chose to delete them and the need to make more en mass was removed.

It would have been really nice if they did remove BM's or put a limit to say 500 a player and gave us a few weeks to trim out the ones we do not want.

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2007.06.05 21:00:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: CaosSpinner
Learn your game history. No it was not originaly that way, in fact the GMs actually got togather and tryed to break up the the first big game camps. Keep in mind that there was a max load of 4000+/- players at the time so not wanting to loose any customers and as it was just one (1) region at the time they allowed the gate camping to continue for a while unitl they finaly had enough and transfered the gate campers all across the universe. This was quite funny at the time because back the the sec security was working and since most of the campers were -8 and below they could not enter empire space without concord responding. Thus most of them had a long trip all the way around the rim back to their home system. There is more but thats a diffrent post.

There was a lot more going on at the time so gate camping was ignored by the devs until there was a changing of the guard in CCP and by then it was as comonplace as instas had become. So it moved from an exploit to a feature but that also is a diffrent post.

Also, no warp 15k came later, originaly when you jumped to a system you jumped to a random point then you WTZ to the gate, base etc. This was changed to quite the whinage of the growing Prat population and also corrasponds with a lot of the Devs moving to low sec but that also is another post.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously did you ever play early EVE? Or are you just cobbling together what you've heard other people say to try and desperately present some kind of argument?

Gate (read JiP) camping was NEEEEVER an exploit. The 'exploit' camp you were refering to was the Mara camp. That was a SPECIAL occasion (gate camps DID occur before this, during and after beta, and were perfectly legal and COMMONPLACE, as said on numerous occasions by Devs to whiny carebears) because this was before sentries existed and MoO were camping that gate 23/7 using battleships

To give an equivalent, it'd be like BoB camping a vital lowsec gate with multiple motherships - they are expensive, tough ships (virtually indestructable if flown right) and I doubt many (if anyone) in EVE could hope to assemble a fleet to match a multiple mothership camp. If CCP decided to break up such a camp today that doesn't make gatecamping an exploit kid, it makes doing it with overwhelming firepower nobody could hope to match exploiting.

Also - if by 'changing of the guard' you mean 'paying off debt to whiny carebear company that had funded them and forced them to make creative changes to EVE to turn EVE into WoW in space', then yeah, point proven.

Also also - JiP used to exist yes, WTZ never did (pos. in beta I don't know, but beta is beta, it doesn't count).

But hey, don't let me dissuade you from posting. You're hilarious.

Wrong but hilarious.

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2007.06.05 21:04:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Quote:
Again the claim that everybody used BMs all the time to every gate and that they were easy to use and infallible. Also I've given plausible arguments, you haven't bothered refuting them.



Well it is semantics in one post i CLEARLY said not everyone used BM's, but that is a pretty lame way to stratify the player base isnt it? Eventually anyone serious about eve ends up using bookmarks, they were infallible by the way. There were a pain hte arse to use, but it didn;t mean you didn;t use them, and that is a terrible arguement. An important part of the game is to make the features acceisble with a very user friendly application. You really haven;t given a single plausible argument, beyond not everyone had BM's, which I addressed as that is a terrible way to stratisfy the player base. Especially since CCP at the end had made copying BM's extremely painful.


Your welcome to keep posting your drama but it doesn;t change that the game is better now than before for the vast majority of players which means it was a good change end of story that is a FACT.

PS im a pretty sure you are wrong eve was not always defacto warp to 15km it was changed to 15km at one point.

Again you are welcome to your opinion, but when the vast majority of player enjoy a change to the game it becomes a good change regardless if you like it or not.


Blah blah blah, you talk a lot of crap. I suppose giving everyone a 'print isk' button would make the game 'better for the vast majority of players' because they could all 'win' EVE and could 'try' everything without all that hassle of 'competition' and 'effort'.


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