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Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.06.07 13:46:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Malachon Draco

Quote:
Get back ingame, enjoy it, this episode changed nothing at all and in fact, none of these episodes have changed anything except those peeps I described above enjoyment of the game and they have no-one to blame about that but themselves.


My reaction was directly in reaction to that:"CCP is taking this latest episode a tad more serious than you".


and we're back where we were 7 posts ago or so.

grats,
dbp





Not my fault if it takes you 7 posts to understand a single sentence Very Happy

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.06.07 14:07:00 - [392]
 

Quote:
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
No. Probably he's tired of arguing with people who will believe anything they are told as long as it confirms their already solidified opinions that CCP is a company of childish insecure cheaters who compromise game mechanics left and right to benefit one alliance, of which they are all members.


So we should just believe you, instead. That CCP has had cheating developers is a part of historical record now as is the fact that BoB was on the receiving end of that cheating, knew about it (at least in high circles), and "liked" it.

Quote:
No one, outside of CCP, EVER knew that these bpos were cheated. Ever. And no one would EVER have known if CCP, the very people you accuse of being corrupt, had made that fact public.


So what was all that stuff on that non-CCP website then? And given your statement, why exactly should we not think that BoB+CCP aren't doing things right now (as they have in the past) that they hope no one would EVER know? After all, the first bit was done hoping no one would ever know. Why couldn't there be other things?

Quote:
I am laughing at those who spiel rubbish that they are told by other peeps and then try and pass it off as factual information.


Or people who are accused who say things that they expect us to believe, when they've been proven to have cheated in the past? I'm sure if you go to a prison and take a survey, the number of innocent people who have been imprisoned is quite high, probably the vast majority of them... if you believe them.

I'm sorry, but you guys were caught cheating. That involves telling lies. You have been proven to have lied before to protect your interests. Why exactly should we believe you now?

Quote:
Most of all though, I am laughing at every single person who is shedding crocodile tears and blustering about as if it's the end of eve over a bunch of made up allegations from an entity who were trying to cover their own failings ingame.


Heh... silly elitism. All you have to do to cover for your own "failings" (in your eyes anyway) ingame is to join one of the corps in BoB and *poof* you're no longer a failure.

Personally, I do have concerns over the end of Eve but for a number of reasons. Sure, the cheating (remember, this is fact now) and the alleged cheating have shaken the playerbase. I know a number of people who have quit the game stating that specifically as the reason they left. If you look at playtime numbers (maybe it is seasonal or something being summer is arriving in the Northern Hemisphere) but earlier in the year, it was common to see 30k online when I logged in. For the past month or so, I tend to see 20k to 24k. The other big thing that worries me is the Cap/Supercap situation (been discussed all over) but it looks like CCP is looking into that as well and has a few decent changes coming up that will help that out some I think (but I don't think it's enough, to be honest).

New Hampshire
Caldari
Eve Independent Builders Network
Posted - 2007.06.07 14:08:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Originally by: New Hampshire
BoB is sweeping the playing field, one look at the map and you can see that. The only question that remains is, will the paying non-BoB players continue to pay to play a game in which BoB has effectively acheived endgame.

In that sense we may witness a bittersweet irony: CCP lets T20 keep his rl job, but he then sees his rl job go down the tube as a result of the successes he helped ensure on behalf of his in-game "job."

I hope it doesn't happen because I like this game, but if it does happen then at least we'll have that little piece of ironic amusement.



That is a defeist point of view.....You are arguing that people will not play a game, where, some players are better than others....To every problem there is a solution, be better than your enemy...but i guess its to hard for youWink
BTW i have great news for you the endgame is far far away.

You also argue that because T20 kept his job CCP coul die. Either way, CCP is a private owned company, and i have never seen any company be it public or private discuss employment or termination contacts on the net......

The Mob wanted T20 to loose his job...in the end its none of your bussiness or mine.

The situation was dealt with, you can argue if it was done correctly, good or bad.....but let it go, its over. If your unhappy with that decission, vote with your feet.



An article in the NY Times today:

NY Times Eve Article

Excerpts:

“Our goal in Eve is to control all of 0.0 space, and when that’s done we’re going to take over the empire one by one and control the empire as well,” he said. (SirMolle would not reveal his real name but said that he is a 40-year-old manager for a heating and cooling company in Sweden.)

The content is not real, in much the same sense that Tony Soprano and Scarlett O’Hara are not real. But for players to feel as if their investments of time and money have worth, they must believe that the company that makes the game is maintaining the fiction in good faith.


We have a situation in which trust in CCP is shot as a result of actual, proven cheating. BoB, the recipient of the cheating, is in fact sweeping the game and may well acheive their goals. In fact, we KNOW that T20 lied in his "confession." How do I know that? Simple.

This is the "confession":T20's Confession

In his blog, T20 states that he did not help BoB "gain information they otherwise would not have," but he did give them apparently conjured T2 BPOs. Now, think about that a moment. Is T20 a cheater? Obviously. Is he a liar? Yes, because it is unthinkable that there wasn't an agreement within CCP to prevent this sort of thing, and T20 clearly lied by breaking that agreement. Is T20 willing to hurt his rl company, CCP, for the sake of a game? Yes, that's precisely what he did.

So, we have this lying, cheating person who puts a game above his real life company, telling us that although he did provide BoB with conjured BPOs, he didn't provide them with mere information?

Now how gullible does he think we are?

The New York Times got it right: "for players to feel as if their investments of time and money have worth, they must believe that the company that makes the game is maintaining the fiction in good faith."

There is NO WAY for many players to justify paying money to watch the beneficiary of T20s cheating, which we REASONABLY suspect is beyond the scope of the liar's confession, sweep the game.

What I want to know - and what many players probably want to know - is how will CCP remove the taint and level the playing field? I pay for now, but I know many who have left. And many more will leave if BoB's successes continue, due to the perception of taint. If that happens in large enough number, bye Eve.

New Hampshire
Caldari
Eve Independent Builders Network
Posted - 2007.06.07 14:12:00 - [394]
 

And regarding T20 keeping his job, I believe the bigger issue is the questions of how he managed to do that given that there was supposedly a preexisting policy to fire employees who cheat. CCPs reply was not terribly believable, someone didn't follow policy just because the CEO was on vacation? If my CEO was on vacation, that would be all the more reason to follow company policy. And I think the statement that it is "none of our business" rings a bit hollow given that he lied and cheated to the detriment of his rl company and to the detriment of the paying customers who pay to play this game.

DB Preacher
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.06.07 14:23:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Borasao

So we should just believe you, instead. That CCP has had cheating developers is a part of historical record now as is the fact that BoB was on the receiving end of that cheating, knew about it (at least in high circles), and "liked" it.


Which shepherd told you that. Was it someone with a big crook? Did he have to feed you some gruel and train you like a parrot?

Originally by: Borasao
I'm sorry, but you guys were caught cheating.


No we weren't but I'm sure if you keep saying it enough it will maybe come true in your head.

Originally by: Borasao
If you look at playtime numbers (maybe it is seasonal or something being summer is arriving in the Northern Hemisphere) but earlier in the year, it was common to see 30k online when I logged in.


Unless you have only recently joined the game, you will know about the trends of eve playtime. I suggest you look at some real hard facts about this instead of hoping that numbers are dropping due to some faked attacks by a failure of an alliance.

dbp

Fivo Asia
Posted - 2007.06.07 14:25:00 - [396]
 

So, now there's to be a council. Will you need to be elected to this council to gain the "special" communications via MSN to devs and GMs?

Seriously, what's the progression path for that aspect of the game, per se? Can players just forward cash donations to appropriate personnel? If so, can we have those routing channels explicitly defined so we only have to send the cash donations once?

If cash doesn't work, and something else is needed to gain the "special communications" priviledge please explain instructions for this, too. Obviously, the NYTimes has so much more feedback on the issue than paying customers, we're all just wondering how things are going to open up.

Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.06.07 15:15:00 - [397]
 

I just want to know more about that article's mentioning of an oversight committee or whatever.

Is there an announcement here on the forums I am missing, or what?

That would be a step in the direction of settling this all for good.

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:12:00 - [398]
 

Originally by: Pizi
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Yet the outcome of his cheating (the T2 BPOs (crappy or not doesn't matter)) stayed with BoB until outside sources found out and made the info public.


WRONG.

No one, outside of CCP, EVER knew that these bpos were cheated. Ever. And no one would EVER have known if CCP, the very people you accuse of being corrupt, had made that fact public.

So, who do you want to victimise now, seeing as the whole basis of your argument is completely debunked... BY YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!


nice spinning

not CCP revealed the facts, it took outsiders and intrusiun to your verry own board do get that know


Keep saying it Piz! Beat that horse good! How anyone outside of CCP could EVER know that the database had been tampered with is, well, even our friendly hacker ain't that good.

Djerin
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:14:00 - [399]
 

Edited by: Djerin on 07/06/2007 16:19:31
Seriously Arkanon, you could as well stop writing about your investigations... I mean all your "evidence" is like repeatedly saying "no we didn't! you can trust us!" Don't you realize that this whole internal affairs stuff was introduced because of lack of trust? So your "evidence" isn't exactly satisfying.

Your effords leave the impression that you're trying to talk away the missing trust. :(

PS: and don't tell me those screenshots of e-mails were evidence. I haven't ever seen a mail program that spell checks incoming mail...

edit: when you read missing trust in my post just imagine it would have been "lack of trust" instead. Rolling Eyes

Prof Weirdo
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:34:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Well, judging from the NY Times article, CCP is taking this latest episode a tad more serious than you do.


What's your point?
dbp



Looks like a lot of Bob's leaders have plenty of time to spend spamming this board. Is msn chat getting a little slow lately?

DB Preacher
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:44:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: Prof Weirdo
Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Well, judging from the NY Times article, CCP is taking this latest episode a tad more serious than you do.


What's your point?
dbp



Looks like a lot of Bob's leaders have plenty of time to spend spamming this board. Is msn chat getting a little slow lately?


Omg, that's so totally funny, I think I wet my pants. Jeez, you burned me soooo badly, I don't know how I will manage to show face in the forums again.

Laughing

baa?

dbp

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2007.06.07 16:48:00 - [402]
 

Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 07/06/2007 16:51:08
Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 07/06/2007 16:49:05
New Hampshire...if you think that those BPO's by any way or means is the key to the succes of BoB and their allies.....Then you really should consider playing another game.....

That situation has been dealt with, but yet any of the posters in here cry havoc, and make demands and silly aqusitions.

The article, in NY...sounds interesting....im looking forward to see how the election will be carried through, in a game like this its very very difficult not to be biased, but lets see it out for a try, its new ground CCP is trying to implement.

But even if the councill or ombudsmen, dont find anything at all, im sure many of the posters in here, will say its a big cover up, or somehting like that.


Rolinthor
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:11:00 - [403]
 

Edited by: Rolinthor on 07/06/2007 21:37:35
Edited by: Rolinthor on 07/06/2007 17:11:47
OK, I'd like all the flamers who get off by getting their rage on to read that New York Times piece linked earlier, again, here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Seriously, it's not that long, and it talks about some pretty significant developments. First of all, it means that CCP now understands that these kinds of episodes can't be kept quiet or in-house. And 2) It means that they're taking it seriously.

A couple of things to point out about the piece: It shows that CCP understands that any business relies on the trust of its customers, but that this kind of organization--like a newspaper or an auditing agency--relies on trust to a greater degree than your everyday widget-hawker. The reporter was right to refer to the new players' council as filling a role similar to that of an ombudsman at a paper. Such employees are contractually hired, usually from outside the company, for a specified, limited time period, and they have contractual assurances that their criticism will not be restricted or buried, and won't result in any kind of retaliation. That's the kind of new position (or player's council) CCP needs to rebuild trust.

I would hope that the new members of this council, whoever they end up being, would take their new role as more than just a free trip to Iceland to hobnob with Devs and GMs. I would hope that they would have the opportunity to conduct thorough audits of both internal CCP procedures (such as how petitions are assigned, escalated and resolved) and how faithfully those procedures are carried out. I would expect them to be able to interview select individual CCP employees about player-related procedures. And finally I would expect them to compile the results of their investigations (barring necessarily proprietary data) into a thorough and clearly written annual audit report.

These players' council spots would be positions of very serious responsibility and hard work, without much immediate reward, and I would sincerely hope that the Eve Community could put down their player corp hats when the moment comes and select their reps based on the individual's commitment to do the job in a way that benefits Eve as a whole, first and foremost.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:21:00 - [404]
 

Edited by: Borasao on 07/06/2007 17:21:21
Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Borasao

So we should just believe you, instead. That CCP has had cheating developers is a part of historical record now as is the fact that BoB was on the receiving end of that cheating, knew about it (at least in high circles), and "liked" it.


Which shepherd told you that. Was it someone with a big crook? Did he have to feed you some gruel and train you like a parrot?


Um... T20 did. I haven't seen a picture of him, does he carry around a big crook and a big kettle of gruel? Maybe you're arguing that BoB didn't "like" it or maybe even that they didn't know about it. I think there was sufficient evidence saying that BoB, at least the higher circles, knew about it. I would also assert that they "liked it" if, in fact, the higher circles knew about it and didn't immediately report it and then made use of it. Or... maybe both T20 and CCP were lying, as you assert here:

Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Borasao
I'm sorry, but you guys were caught cheating.


No we weren't but I'm sure if you keep saying it enough it will maybe come true in your head.


So you're asserting that the T20 incident(s) never happened, now? Or are you saying that T20 (who was in BoB) giving BoB spawned BPOs which BoB used to create ships to use and sell in the game isn't cheating? Please clarify.

Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Borasao
If you look at playtime numbers (maybe it is seasonal or something being summer is arriving in the Northern Hemisphere) but earlier in the year, it was common to see 30k online when I logged in.


Unless you have only recently joined the game, you will know about the trends of eve playtime. I suggest you look at some real hard facts about this instead of hoping that numbers are dropping due to some faked attacks by a failure of an alliance.

dbp


I admit, I've only been playing for a year so I don't know much how the summer changes Eve's player times. I *do* know that 30k+ wasn't that uncommon six months ago. I can't remember seeing it that high in the last few weeks. I *do* know a number of people who have cancelled their subscriptions because of all the distrust. I guess I was thinking that a fair number of people have cancelled.

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:37:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Yet the outcome of his cheating (the T2 BPOs (crappy or not doesn't matter)) stayed with BoB until outside sources found out and made the info public.


WRONG.

No one, outside of CCP, EVER knew that these bpos were cheated. Ever. And no one would EVER have known if CCP, the very people you accuse of being corrupt, had made that fact public.

So, who do you want to victimise now, seeing as the whole basis of your argument is completely debunked... BY YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!


If you notice, I NEVER said the anybody in BoB knew the BPOs were dirty...just that the dirty BPOs were left with BoB until K(he who shall not be named) blew the whistle, and the public outcry forced CCP to do something about it.

So whether anybody a BoB knew that the BPOs weere bad or not..they still recieved benefit from them.

Btw, if nobody outside of CCP knew the BPOs were bad, why did CCP choose to leave them with BoB until outed?
Doesn't seem right to me. But what do I know, I'm just a sheep, right?

DBP has a habit of saying Baa a lot lately, yet BoB seem to keep bleating the same arguments over and over.....

Radgun
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.06.07 17:47:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: CCP Arkanon
The player has confirmed that he disconnected when he pressed the send button, making this a classic example of a client crash and clear evidence that the petition was never received and therefore never deleted.

Quite why the assumption was then made that the petition had been deleted by CCP is not clear to me, but I’ll settle for knowing we had nothing to do with it.


Case closedExclamation

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:00:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: Dianabolic

Originally by: Dianabolic

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: Dianabolic

Originally by: DB Preacher


...
Originally by: 9,000 Alts
Originally by: DB Preacher

Originally by: Dianabolic


RABBLERABBLERABBLE!

And thus the true, insidious ramifications of a seemingly innocuous "Hey guys, I'm bored - let's go posts to EVE-O!" make themselves manifest.

Remember, friends don't let friends post on the official forums.

Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.06.07 18:01:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: New Hampshire
I'm really tired of being accused of believing in some grand conspiracy. I believe no such thing.

Are you actually replying to my post? If so, are you actually Boraso (just a forum char screwup?) I'm seriously asking this question, since if you are not he then I don't know what you're doing replying to me. My reply was directly to the things said in his post and not a general anti-whiner reply.

Quote:
I'm looking at that map and I can see that BoB has overwhelming power. And don't give me the old "they have good players" nonsense, as if no other group in this game ever had good players. To alter the map of this game THAT MUCH requires a lot more than good PvP.

What? The British Empire, Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire: all examples of forces that conquered very large amounts of territory simply through military superiority.

Quote:
One final thought - cut it out with the misplaced anger. The people who don't trust or believe CCP aren't the problem here. T20 and by extension CCP are the problem. They created this mess, I say let them fix it or let them watch their paying customers leave.

Are you saying that I have misplaced anger? I didn't show any in my previous post as far as I can tell.

Tempus Fugitive
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:04:00 - [409]
 

Vote for me - Tempus Fugitive - for Ombudsman!


Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.06.07 20:30:00 - [410]
 

And no matter how many alts and newbies post in here, one fact will consistently remain the same.

All the ranting and raving about corruption comes from people who heard it from someone who heard it from someone.

The only proven piece of information of any cheating in any way is the t20 scandal, and the ranters and ravers will always, always return to it because it's all they've really got.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.06.07 21:18:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Frug

The only proven piece of information of any cheating in any way is the t20 scandal, and the ranters and ravers will always, always return to it because it's all they've really got.


Is that not enough? particularly in the way it was (mis-)handled?

DB Preacher
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.06.07 21:54:00 - [412]
 

Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/06/2007 21:52:50
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Frug

The only proven piece of information of any cheating in any way is the t20 scandal, and the ranters and ravers will always, always return to it because it's all they've really got.


Is that not enough? particularly in the way it was (mis-)handled?


I'm sure in 10 years time it will still be very important to you! (providing someone else says it is)

dbp

Pizi
Gallente
Posted - 2007.06.07 22:40:00 - [413]
 

well its history ...

im not aware of any other mmorpg where a dev cheatet for the benefit of an alliance , got all the flak , the profiteurs got away unpunished (even allowed to keep the income and the damn BPO´s for a few month) and the whistleblower was banned

there was a great scandal about a GM in UO creating castle deeds and selling of on ebay but he was GM not a dev

its mostly your side who always brings it up in a funny defensive way


Freaky Bare
Blueprint Haus
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2007.06.07 22:51:00 - [414]
 

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Yet the outcome of his cheating (the T2 BPOs (crappy or not doesn't matter)) stayed with BoB until outside sources found out and made the info public.


WRONG.

No one, outside of CCP, EVER knew that these bpos were cheated. Ever. And no one would EVER have known if CCP, the very people you accuse of being corrupt, had made that fact public.

So, who do you want to victimise now, seeing as the whole basis of your argument is completely debunked... BY YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!


I have completely stayed out of these threads. I will probably regret making this one post. Personally, I think the game has much bigger problems than these. Having said that ......

Your statement here makes me doubtful of every post you have ever made. See, I don't know the truth of most of these issues. Again - I have stayed out of the discussion. I DO know that it was not CCP who made the BPO thing public. The proof is out there - I am fairly certain you have seen it.

Someone somewhere said something that fits perfectly here. Hmmm. Oh yeah! "So, who do you want to victimise(sic) now, seeing as the whole basis of your argument is completely debunked... BY YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!" Not a perfect fit - but thanks for letting me use it. Razz

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2007.06.07 23:39:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

Well, either I believe in this or I believe in you. You are not exactly a trustworth person.


No?

Amusing that our enemies use this like a mantra, chanting it over and over again with some vain hope that the rest of eve will believe it.

You have no reason to believe I am not a trustworthy person unless you are livestock following the shepherds by believing their character assassinations against me. Much like you believe their rubbish they write to try and character assassinate CCP.

Either way, the reason I can't stop laughing at this thread and that's the real reason for the smileys because every day I come back to read the thread I get to see another dude who knows, KNOWS what happened when the only thing they know is what they get spoonfed by the shepherds.

Wake up, think for yourselves and stop being sheep.
dbp


Your name suits you very well, dear preacher. You preach and expects people to believe in your mantra.

I am not and never have been a BoB enemy. I had no interest whatsover in BoB's fall. I even left your wining side on my own volition... So your ad hominem arguments are as effective against me as your laughs.

I have every reasont o believe you are not trustworth. You always knew T20 was a Dev and even so denied it many times in this forum, for example. You lied several times in this very forums defending BoB until the truth came and you were exposed as a liar. Why should I believe you now?

I am hardly a sheep I am going against the trend to ally with the wining side no matter how rotten it is to feel like a winer. But if you want to find sheeps go visit your pets in Xelas and Fix. They do believe blindly in what their shepards say :)

New Hampshire
Caldari
Eve Independent Builders Network
Posted - 2007.06.08 00:09:00 - [416]
 

As I have repeatedly said in prior posts, I acknowledge that T20 stated that the cheating was limited in scope to the several T2 BPOs.

However, there is more information.

For one thing, Kug is the one who made the cheating public, apparently by hacking into corp websites. And he has always said that the cheating was far greater in scope.

And T20's own confession contained a lie: this man who was willing to put a game ahead of his real life job/corporation, was willing to lie and cheat, he claims that at no time did he provide BoB with insider information. Now, I am certain that there is nobody here who really believes that. A cheater, a liar, someone who is willing to put a GAME ahead of his real life job and coworkers, and that type of person isn't going to be giving insider tips?

Again, how gullible do you think I am?

We cannot prove that the cheating was more extensive, though Kug's allegations certainly are more credible than anything put out by CCP at this point. But the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. BoB and their friends ARE sweeping the game. And most of us paying customers have a real hard time believing that to be a coincidence.

Those of us who feel cheated, defrauded and wronged by T20, we need to stand together and with one voice say that WE DON'T CARE about this new ombudsman proposal put forth by CCP. Because the taint is already in the game, and no ombudsman can do anything to remove the prior taint.

What we DO demand, is that CCP take serious steps to remove the taint, level the playing field and fix the mess created by it's own employee - regardless of whether that mess consists of only extensive cheating, only the perception of extensive cheating, or both.

Otherwise, if BoB really does end up controlling most or all of 0.0, we ought to leave. And frankly, if BoB acheives it's goals, there won't really be much point in staying in the game anyway. I don't plan on paying money to be part of a BoB shooting gallery.

And to the guy who said to me that I can't beat BoB - you're right. Part of my gaming experience in Eve is spending a lot of time figuring out how things work. But BoB, with a Dev on their side, they didn't need to do that . . . nobody can compete with a corp that has a lying, cheating Dev on their side. And the taint that such a thing caused is still present, in the form of massive amounts of game resources.

"Remove the taint, or a paying customer I ain't."

New Hampshire
Caldari
Eve Independent Builders Network
Posted - 2007.06.08 00:27:00 - [417]
 

Edited by: New Hampshire on 08/06/2007 00:28:29
And no, I'm not Boraso. I don't even know who that is. And this is not the British Empire, Alexander the Great or Rome. This is a game. I pay money to be amused. T20 most emphatically was NOT amusing. And if T20's alliance continues to sweep, then I will leave.

And that's really not an idle threat. If BoB does sweep all of 0.0, why WOULD I stay? Why would many players stay?

Aurael Drakewing
Legio Immortalis
Abyssus Incendia
Posted - 2007.06.08 02:08:00 - [418]
 

Originally by: New Hampshire
Those of us who feel cheated, defrauded and wronged by T20, we need to stand together and with one voice say that WE DON'T CARE about this new ombudsman proposal put forth by CCP. Because the taint is already in the game, and no ombudsman can do anything to remove the prior taint.

What we DO demand, is that CCP take serious steps to remove the taint, level the playing field and fix the mess created by it's own employee - regardless of whether that mess consists of only extensive cheating, only the perception of extensive cheating, or both.


By your own admission, right here quoted for you, nothing short of punishing many pilots who did no wrong will satisfy you. You say you won't accept anything that CCP says or does short of completely destroying what many have worked hard for. Sorry to be blunt, but just cancel your subscription now.

Before you accuse me of being a "BoB pet/sheep/mouthpiece/etc" take a look at my corp history. I wasn't in any way associated with BoB until recently, and the start of the current war. In fact, I had no feelings for BoB either way, other than "ooo...lookie, 800 lb. gorilla, I think I'll stay out of it's way." I joined a BoB-friendly alliance simply because they had the best, most interesting offer at the time for a friendly atmosphere with plenty of targets to shoot at, and I wasn't wrong...PANIC has been awesome. Once the targets go away, I'll move on again...maybe to a coalition corp, maybe to a pirate corp, maybe even to a RP corp...whichever sounds most interesting at the time.

Now, with all that out of the way, some questions:
A) Who the hell gave you the right to speak for the whole of the community? I for one think this oversight committee idea is a good step, but will wait to see what the actual stipulations and results are.

B) Why are you still here? It's pretty clear to me that you patently distrust CCP, quite possibly to the point of hate, and definitely don't believe any evidence they show against allegations. Why would you keep paying money to a company you don't trust, and possibly hate? I know I wouldn't.

C) Why would you want to punish many innocent players for the indiscretions of a few? Unless you're saying that every single member of BoB is a cheater, and were part of a vast "conspiracy" to cover it up, that would be exactly what you would be doing. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that any but a few knew of the whole T20 thing, so I could not ethically or morally accept this "solution" to the problem of YOU not believing a company that YOU give money to every month to fly virtual spaceships in a fantasy world. And since when is this game all about YOU?

*Disclaimer: The usual spiel about not representing my alliance/corp here*

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.06.08 02:56:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Frug

The only proven piece of information of any cheating in any way is the t20 scandal, and the ranters and ravers will always, always return to it because it's all they've really got.


Is that not enough? particularly in the way it was (mis-)handled?


Is it enough to counter every single argument against every single lame, baseless and stupid rabid frenzy argument that comes up against CCP from now until the end of time? I don't think so, no.

Some people think so. I think they need to get over it and get a life.

Grey Gryphon
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.06.08 07:44:00 - [420]
 

"I envision this council being made up of nine members selected by the players themselves..."

It may be too soon to talk about this since CCP hasn't made an official announcement, but I'm wondering if anyone else thinks player *elected* ombudsmen are a bad idea? You need political clout to win an election, which in this game probably translates to being a prominent member of a large corp / alliance. I feel that such people are less likely to be objective.


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