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Rose Valentin
Caldari
Dawn of War
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:44:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Jin Entres
Agreed with the OP. This solution will arguably hurt amarr more than help them, aswell as bring about new problems for many ships (namely blaster boats) which are already hurting.

In my opinion, the way to go about fixing the situation is by not only nerfing but encouraging the use of alternatives to omni tanks. So I suggest:

T2 specific hardener CPU to 25
EANM II EM resistance bonus -5% (15% base, 18.75% with compensation V = 6.25% less than before with comp V)

This way ships that are tight on CPU are encouraged to fit hardeners, but current setups won't be thrown into the bin while omnitanks in general will be less resilient to EM.




Sounds good. At the moment if you use active hardeners you generally have empty slots due to cpu issues, which is a waste of any ship.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:44:00 - [92]
 

Wellif it cause so many angry reactins.. it must be hitting a setup base that is overused.. so the more people whinne more it proves that Tux made a perfect wrecking hit.

Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:46:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Gaven Blands
6 cpu.
You're crying over 6 CPU?
Battleship pilots are crying over 6 cpu?
Or is it 36 cpu because you use 6 of them?

Now, Cruiser and Frig pilots I can understand them crying for 6 CPU. BC perhaps. But BS?
That's just BS that it.

As far as I care, the nerf isn't enough, not even close. Active tanking is much more difficult, always has been, and can't match the versatility of the passive omni-hardening. That has always been wrong, and clearly they want it to stay that way.
6 cpu isn't going to have everybody running for the hills.
This is just pants.

Does it buff Amarr?
I've no idea. But I would guess no.
People will not give up the omni-tank unless they absolutely have to. And 6 cpu doesn't cut it.
Go on... tell me how 6 cpu cripples your fit, and therefore this is a nerf-too-far.
dingbats.


My Megathron is within 6 CPU of its max. My zealot within 3, my Deimos within a few too. You have no idea what your talking about, the CPU is there to be used up, the ships have been designed with the modules so that things fit, but just, thats why Weapon Upgrades and Advanced Weapon Upgrades are so important.

When you actually get to tech 2 guns, and hardeners, come back and join the rest of us, okay? Because they use a damn sight more CPU than other stuff.




Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:49:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Gaven Blands
6 cpu.
You're crying over 6 CPU?
Battleship pilots are crying over 6 cpu?
Or is it 36 cpu because you use 6 of them?

Now, Cruiser and Frig pilots I can understand them crying for 6 CPU. BC perhaps. But BS?
That's just BS that it.

As far as I care, the nerf isn't enough, not even close. Active tanking is much more difficult, always has been, and can't match the versatility of the passive omni-hardening. That has always been wrong, and clearly they want it to stay that way.
6 cpu isn't going to have everybody running for the hills.
This is just pants.

Does it buff Amarr?
I've no idea. But I would guess no.
People will not give up the omni-tank unless they absolutely have to. And 6 cpu doesn't cut it.
Go on... tell me how 6 cpu cripples your fit, and therefore this is a nerf-too-far.
dingbats.


LOL. You're kidding right?

I use a -5% CPU implant, and I STILL have to resort to faction mods, just to get everything to fit, within 1-2 CPU on my Megas/Navy Mega. CPU has always been the limiting factor on Mega setups. Same with the Geddon.

We have to use the most expensive mods, just to get the modules to fit. Hell, I have to use a TS large rep just because of CPU requirements. Can't even use T2. Have to use a best named DC instead of T2, same with scrams, webs, etc.

JUST to get it to fit. The only thing that is T2 on my Mega besides the guns and magstabs are the EANMs, simply because if I use faction EANMS, I'm spending more on them in total (for SS EANMs) than I didn on the BS, or TWICE AS MUCH, if I'm using TS EANMs.

It's stupid that I have to replace a 4m ISK mod with one that costs 25m to 80m, just because of 6 CPU.

And NO, running 3x T2 specific resists isn't acceptable. I lose all the resist bonuses of a DC. And NO, I can't remove a magstab. The DPS is already so low that I can barely break anyone's tank before I run out of cap.

Rigs and HP increase and T2 ammo nerf have all reduced gank setup effectiveness by a HUGE amount. I guess no one seems to think this is the case just because they don't use the ships themselves.

I'd like to see what the shield guys would say if the Invuln II was removed from their setups, or forced to use DG invulns just to be able to fit them. It's the same thing.


Wait, what sort of weird setup are you running that you are so low on cpu?

You can fit:

7 Electron t2, Heavy Dimishing nosf
100mn mwd, cap booster, x5 web, best named 20km disruptor
2 LAR, 2 x EANM, IFF, MFSt2, 1 low slot empty,

before and after the EANM nerf, right?



If you leave a low slot on your Megathron empty, your a bloody idiot.

fact.


James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:51:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Wellif it cause so many angry reactins.. it must be hitting a setup base that is overused.. so the more people whinne more it proves that Tux made a perfect wrecking hit.

Yes because clearly the utility of any given setup is the perfect metric for game balance. Aside from the fact that any good setup will rapidly proliferate in the population, it's the fact that it nukes everything related to armor tanking while offering no reasonable alternatives. It's a straight nerf that doesn't buff anything.

Dejana Morgana
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:55:00 - [96]
 

/signed. make it go away :(

Trak Cranker
Finn Inc
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:57:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Izo Azlion

My Megathron is within 6 CPU of its max. My zealot within 3, my Deimos within a few too. You have no idea what your talking about, the CPU is there to be used up, the ships have been designed with the modules so that things fit, but just, thats why Weapon Upgrades and Advanced Weapon Upgrades are so important.



What things?
A perfect rack of things?
Or perhaps, more likely, different combinations of things that forces you to weigh pros against cons.

Theres a lot of people here saying that there fitting wont work anymore. But without specifying what the fittings are, thats rather pointless.
Its rahter important if they mess with a setup that can be considered perfect to some degree - or with a setup that already has left some out, to something else in.

Loftur sterki
MASS
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:59:00 - [98]
 

WHy didnt they buff amarr dmg output ???

I do less dmg with my uber trained laser specs after 2 yers of training now than with my t1 when i was so much nub I flew with active hards off for 2 months ^^...

Its insane blaster/cannon/missile have been buffed through the roof and amarr gets 1-2% cpu/res bonus

great to be amarr isn't :I

Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2007.06.01 11:59:00 - [99]
 

Amarr ships are the only ones that solely rely on EANMs due to the fairly balanced resists... With Gallente ships, an EANM and an Explosive Hardener usually does the trick, but with Amarr, there's no point in using any hardeners unless you use three (exp, kin, and therm). With my current geddon setup, I use three hardeners and an EANM all t2, but when I get t2 guns, they'll be downgraded to N-Type (all but the EANM). With an EANM nerf like this, I may as well just put a Co-Pro on and lower all my resists (EM will stay the same either way).

If you seriously want to implement this nerf to EANMs, the only way not to nerf Amarr ships would be to add about 20 CPU to each Amarr ship!

All you have to do to balance every EM resist in the game is to lower it to 40 rather than 60, and everything will be sorted! Stop titting about with random other things to hope it fixes the problem!

Yes, I fly Amarr, and yes, I may be biased, but I also have a second account character that flies Gallente, and with 10mil less SPs than this character, he still does more damage and can tank better... Something needs to be done that doesn't nerf Amarr as well...

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:00:00 - [100]
 

i tihnk the game right now is realy balanced tank wise. if you remove even more tankability from armor tankers, you have to give them even more dps:)

Gaven Blands
Caldari
Cosmic Fusion
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:28:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Izo Azlion
My Megathron is within 6 CPU of its max. My zealot within 3, my Deimos within a few too. You have no idea what your talking about, the CPU is there to be used up, the ships have been designed with the modules so that things fit, but just, thats why Weapon Upgrades and Advanced Weapon Upgrades are so important.

When you actually get to tech 2 guns, and hardeners, come back and join the rest of us, okay? Because they use a damn sight more CPU than other stuff.



me me me, you you you.
Pure Genius. One of those things you know a lot about, the other, very little. But don't let that stop you.

If CCP had given a BS 12 more CPU, I doubt we'd have an equally long thread saying how totally cool and uber all the BS's had suddenly become.

This thread only differs from the usual whines by the faces who are doing the whining.
Amusingly, the faces who often tell others to "adapt or quit/die" and "can I have your stuff?"

Eve would be less of a game without it's hypocrisy.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:39:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Gaven Blands
Originally by: Izo Azlion
My Megathron is within 6 CPU of its max. My zealot within 3, my Deimos within a few too. You have no idea what your talking about, the CPU is there to be used up, the ships have been designed with the modules so that things fit, but just, thats why Weapon Upgrades and Advanced Weapon Upgrades are so important.

When you actually get to tech 2 guns, and hardeners, come back and join the rest of us, okay? Because they use a damn sight more CPU than other stuff.



me me me, you you you.
Pure Genius. One of those things you know a lot about, the other, very little. But don't let that stop you.

If CCP had given a BS 12 more CPU, I doubt we'd have an equally long thread saying how totally cool and uber all the BS's had suddenly become.

This thread only differs from the usual whines by the faces who are doing the whining.
Amusingly, the faces who often tell others to "adapt or quit/die" and "can I have your stuff?"

Eve would be less of a game without it's hypocrisy.

Hi, I'm called content. You left me behind when you went off to post.

Belial02
Amarr
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:44:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Belial02 on 01/06/2007 12:43:13
/signed

Thats right, make ALL ships even harder to fit that will really help Amarr Rolling Eyes

/me starts drinking in an attempt to forget. Confused

Gaven Blands
Caldari
Cosmic Fusion
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:47:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Gaven Blands

Eve would be less of a game without it's hypocrisy.

Hi, I'm called content. You left me behind when you went off to post.



Laughing
Joke of the day award to you sir!!

It's always nice to see quality humour lightening a rubbish yet emotive thread, gratz!

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:51:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

Wait, what sort of weird setup are you running that you are so low on cpu?

You can fit:

7 Electron t2, Heavy Dimishing nosf
100mn mwd, cap booster, x5 web, best named 20km disruptor
2 LAR, 2 x EANM, IFF, MFSt2, 1 low slot empty,

before and after the EANM nerf, right?



And what, pray tell, do you intend to kill with that lump of crap?

You *are* joking right? No one can be that stupid.

Nianda SeCann
Posted - 2007.06.01 12:53:00 - [106]
 

signed


Thought this game was supposed to be a ppl sandbox CCP?

PLs don't make me laugh, you guys have interfered with this game for so long, trying to get certain loud mouthed people happy, some have been needed (WCS InStabs), others like drone amount(a extra insult as that one was supposed to help lag), that not only is the game wildly imbalanced, its bugged as fuk.

Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

BTW you are allowed to hire workers older than school leaving age

Probeltis
Templar Corps
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:06:00 - [107]
 

It's bad enough that it takes me, as Amarr, considerably longer to train to T2 Large Lasers than it takes Caldari to train to T2 Torp spam, now you also want to remove my tank.

I've tried to stay loyal to Amarr for years, but I see its finally come time for me to cross train to something useful.

Megadon
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:10:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Megadon on 01/06/2007 13:15:02
Way to go CCP! One hell of a boost! Why the **** cant you just boost the EM damage that lasers do instead of ****ing nerfing our tanks? Is that so goddamned complicated?

bahEvil or Very Mad idiots

ALL this does is give a boost the the goddamned faction market by making it an absolute requirement now to use faction items to fit out ships. If this change actually does go through to tranquility. I mean honestly. Put the pipe down.Evil or Very Mad

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:35:00 - [109]
 

IMO, the best way to fix the problem would be to reduce the EM resistance bonus from EANMs and the explosive resistance bonus from invulnerability fields. This would solve the problem in short order without completely destroying viable setups for the majority of armor tankers.

Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:45:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Wellif it cause so many angry reactins.. it must be hitting a setup base that is overused.. so the more people whinne more it proves that Tux made a perfect wrecking hit.


Let's do the same to all passive shiledtankers shall we? Let's make shields no longer regenerate themselves so they need to repp like armortankers do for example. Let's see how much whining that will cause.
Oh right. if people whine, that must mean it was a needed nerf.

Yes I do know that it would be a stupid thing to do to shields, but it defenately would cause alot of whining, so by your analogy it must be the perfect thing to do.

Guess how many more shieldtanking myrms you'll be seeing after this when the shieldtank is not only vastly better, but easier to fit aswell.

Plaetean
0utbreak
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:51:00 - [111]
 

/signed

Seriously the wrong thing to do CCP...

Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:51:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Trak Cranker

What things?
A perfect rack of things?
Or perhaps, more likely, different combinations of things that forces you to weigh pros against cons.



so taking electron blasters instead of neutrons doesn't count as exactly that kind of thinking then?

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:52:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Gaven Blands
Nope. Not convinced. Not sorry.
If I was on the forum crying every time I found a setup I could not run because 6 or 12 cpu was missing, there would be at least three extra threads a month.

This is just another "we're all doomed" thread that preceeds the latest "uber build" posting that everybody starts using.

Can you hold a little anger back armor tankers? You're going to need it for when the nos nerf comes.
"lalala I'm not listening!..."

Having fractional CPU left is common on Megathrons, and no, that's not with trying to fit the biggest turrets and a monster tank...

Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2007.06.01 13:54:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: d026
i tihnk the game right now is realy balanced tank wise. if you remove even more tankability from armor tankers, you have to give them even more dps:)


And that post, in combination with your signature gives me faith back. :)

Lady Beauvoir
Slutty Witches
Posted - 2007.06.01 14:01:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Juan Andalusian
Originally by: Alaron Giancol
so almost all ships are setup that way, reducing an amarr ship's final damage output.


How does a module that increases the resists to all damage types equally hurt "amarr ship's final damage output" more?.

When you put an EANM on a Gallente blaster will do 20% less damage and guess what!? an Amarr pulse will also do 20% less damage.

Now if there is a problem with the initial release concept of ships and their base resists compared to the average DPS that Energy weapons were based on then that's an entirely different issue. Not that i believe there is anything wrong with the that either but it has nothing to do with the EANM.


It hurts the "amarr ship's final damage output" more, because the tanker is already satisfied with his EM resist but adds the EANM to gain the maximum amount of resistances against other damage types for the least amount of PG/CPU usage. As a bonus, he also gains an additional resist bonus against EM damage. Although his intention was to bring his other resistances up to an acceptable level, he also improved the only resist he was not required to increase to reach an adequate level, the EM one. Thus, as a side effect, the amarr suffer. In short, while trying to fit a good tank you also increase the EM resists as a "side effect", leading to problems with EM damage dealing ships and weapons.

I really like Jin's idea - make active hardeners comparable to EANM/EANM/DC -setup by lowering their fitting requirements.

MOS DEF
0utbreak
Posted - 2007.06.01 14:05:00 - [116]
 

I fear it is a typical CCP "fix". They just randomly play with values without thinking it through.
The EANM nerf was mentioned a long time ago as possibility and it made me laugh back then. Amarr are flawed. By nerfing this module that flaw wont go away. Especially since many amarr ships (yeh funny) rely on this module.

Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2007.06.01 14:10:00 - [117]
 

I would call this the first Caldari buff in a long time.

Durao
Amarr
Not Quite So Sinister
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2007.06.01 14:23:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Durao on 01/06/2007 14:22:55

No one should have an "omni-tank", and be able to fit for ganking at the same time.

Brother Todd
Posted - 2007.06.01 14:25:00 - [119]
 

Oh dear now some people will have to rethink their fittings... that's just awful.

DC II = 30 cpu
IFFA = 17 cpu

30-17=13 cpu free from fitting an IFFA instead of the DC II. That's 1 cpu more than 2 of the new EANMs will add to your ships.

Sc0rpion
Faster Pussycat Kill Kill
Posted - 2007.06.01 14:25:00 - [120]
 

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself on this.

THIS CHANGE WILL DRIVE EVERY MEGATHRON PILOT INTO A NOS DOMINIX.


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