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Cipher7
Posted - 2007.05.30 07:42:00 - [331]
 


Yes, the devs should play their own game, but they should have no dev powers/commands on their playing accounts.

If its too boring for a dev to grind a ship, then its too boring for a player to grind a ship too.

They should play it just like the day 1 noob plays it, waiting 2 weeks for the learning skills to finish just like everybody else, waiting a month for tech 2 guns just like everybody else, grinding cash in 0.0 just like everybody else, not /create t2 BPO command.

If you find grinding cash boring then so do your players.

If you find the skills take too long to train, so do your players.

Don't play it like a dev, play it like a player.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.05.30 07:51:00 - [332]
 

Bluntly, I don't think a dev should ever be in a influential position in game. If this means not playing it that's the way it should be.

Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2007.05.30 08:06:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Cipher7

Yes, the devs should play their own game, but they should have no dev powers/commands on their playing accounts.

If its too boring for a dev to grind a ship, then its too boring for a player to grind a ship too.

They should play it just like the day 1 noob plays it, waiting 2 weeks for the learning skills to finish just like everybody else, waiting a month for tech 2 guns just like everybody else, grinding cash in 0.0 just like everybody else, not /create t2 BPO command.

If you find grinding cash boring then so do your players.

If you find the skills take too long to train, so do your players.

Don't play it like a dev, play it like a player.


That's.. exactly what they do. Laughing

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.05.30 12:12:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Akiman on 30/05/2007 12:14:09
Originally by: Roshan longshot
Wow look at all these alts....Rolling Eyes You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are.

Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse...









this is my main... and who gave u the right ask to leave?

Ehrys Marakai
Caldari
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.05.30 13:17:00 - [335]
 

Hmmm...

Ok, you say the Devs are playing the game and can possibly be abusing their powers. You say all devs should leave the game.

1. Please name all the dev's normal player names...Oh what sorry, you can't? Why not? Ahh because you don't know because they don't tell you!

2. They join and alliance to spy on them for their "parent" corp/alliance. Hey, you mean a normal player spy?

3. CCP Devs all have special telekinetic powers. This is obvious, because they know what the alliance is going to do before the alliance heads do. What do you mean I'm talking silly? That's what you said, they let their friends know what's going to happen. I refer you back to point 2.

4. Speaking as a games programmer, if I didn't get to play the game I was writing, I would lose interest in it. I would also not know the game dynamics. The big voice of "Increase mining yeild by 50000% because mining is too slow!" would probably get listened to. They[customers] do this not because they are right, but because they want the game to be easier. By having an in game perspective you know how fast/slow mining/pvp is and can balance the game without listening to the "I want X to make my life easier" crowd.

NOTE: I do not work for CCP! I write games in my spare time and for my degree course

5. Your argument: I work at shop X. I want to buy something from shop X. Oh wait, I can't. Why? Because I work at shop X.

If devs didn't play this game, I wouldn't either.

Good game CCP, some us do believe in you, you know.

Tankred Hauteville
Core of Elements
Posted - 2007.05.30 13:56:00 - [336]
 

strictly no GMs or Devs in the game. just my opinion, not yours.Exclamation

Tommy Vercetti
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.05.30 14:04:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: ho chiminh
Bottom line you can't keep game creator employees from playing game, in Eve or any other game. Best you can do is police 'em and live with the results.


This.

It's either devs playing or no Eve IMO. It's bad enough the way CCP yield to whiners while they play the game, let along removing them entirely of it and asking them to balance it. What needs to be done (and isn't quite so easy) is making sure their powers are kept strictly professional. A tall order and one I hope they don't drag through the mud.

Phoenix ShadowDancer
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2007.05.30 14:59:00 - [338]
 

Should Dev's and GM's be allowed to play the game as standard players?

YES!

They have worked so hard on this great game that not allowing them to play would lessen the game overall for all player. Playing the game gives them insite that they would not normally get from watching the game.

But the issue and problems they create by being a Dev or GM in game is that they bring a capability and knowledge to the corporations that they join and slant the development view on what should be worked on and updated for there benefit.

It all comes down to the quality control of CPP's employees in general, if a GM or DEV is playing a character that has games development ability in a production environment then we start to see the major problems we are having today.

I would suggest removal of all Dev and GM abilities to characters be removed from the production environment and all characters that need those abilities in game are flagged and audited on a regular basis. ie when they do something they have to write the ticket number they are fixing. I would also suggest that all CPP employees be forced to join a certain corp so there all in one place so there would be no more talk of alting for other alliances.

The CPP must view the game as a assist that must be maintained for it customers and any developer or GM that even looks the wrong way as in all other online games is banned from playing in production.

They have built one of the greatest online community games and it shows by all the great players that enjoy Eve Online everyday.

It all comes down the the community trusting the CPP company to manage a fair and equal opportunity game for everybody and playing favorites is not the way to do that. They have not only lost trust in there player base they have done little to nothing to fix this view that a few trouble makers have created.

CPP CLEAN UP YOU EMPLOYEE GAME USE POLICY AND FORCE THE REMOVAL OF THERE CHARACTERS FROM THE TOP MOVERS & SHAKERS IN THE GAME. The game is for the player not your employees.

Just my 2 cents.

TOTALHELLDEATH
Caldari
Stellar Convertors
Posted - 2007.05.30 15:32:00 - [339]
 

Edited by: TOTALHELLDEATH on 30/05/2007 15:31:38
Devs/ADMINS/GM's and ISD should not have the permission to play in superpower blocks like RA/GOON/BOB or MC we all know why.. look at the last events CCP have no trust any longer and all they do in the last time do it more worse than ever.

CCP is sending their customers a lawery to bring them to shutup. Hell! ccp? do you realy think you will get trust on this way?

Create a Post, with all Dev/Admin/GM and ISD!! Player Chars remove them from their current corps rename them and monitor them that they dont longer have a chance to take influence on important events.

It's a ****ing Job they have to do, they got good money for.. so they should do something for!

Maximor
ldiocracy
RED.Legion
Posted - 2007.05.30 15:43:00 - [340]
 

Temptation is a way of life folks. There are two evils here and what the community is attempting to decide is which of the evils is lesser. Do you allow developers to play the game and risk them cheating? Do you forbid them to play and risk sweeping gamechanges that arent relevant or useful?

We all face a starkely similar choice when we vote. So the question really is, which one could you better live with?

My answer: I would rather risk a bit of cheating and have the developers involved in the game they are designing so that when they make changes, they can better understand the effects those changes will have. Besides, in the long run, there has been 1 confirmed instance of abuse in what, 4 years? I think thats pretty good.

Rez Valintine
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.30 15:43:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: Rez Valintine on 30/05/2007 15:42:25
Originally by: Ehrys Marakai
Hmmm...

Ok, you say the Devs are playing the game and can possibly be abusing their powers. You say all devs should leave the game.

1. Please name all the dev's normal player names...Oh what sorry, you can't? Why not? Ahh because you don't know because they don't tell you!
.[/b]


The reason I cancelled my last account was to to the fact that I did have a dev in my corp - was only an 8 man corp. That account was deleted - costing me billions as all of a sudden I didn't have the standings required for the shiny new POS. I didn't find out said player was a dev until after the fact.

CCP's inability to seperate developers and gamers cost me months of game time. That is unacceptable.

So in my corp, I don't let anyone in - for fear they may be a dev.

Relaed
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.05.30 16:17:00 - [342]
 

Not sure where you get your numbers from, they are not based on any facts for sure.

Let us be real; do you want the police to also be the judge and the jury? No, you don't.

If GMs and Devs want to play, that is fine; but with restrictions and public awareness. All GMS and Devs should be required to submit to having their characters clearly listed as belonging to GMs and Devs. No ands, ifs, or buts.

They should also sign a waiver of sorts, so that if and when they are caught not complying with the above disclosure rules, they would be fired from their GM/Dev jobs immediately, without recourse.

This game has been going down hill for a while now, it's just picking up speed with all the corruption going on in CCP. If they had any morales, they would stop GM/Dev cheating cold, now, forever.

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Yes they should.
Even if only so they can enjoy Eve too.

99% of the 'issues' that have actually resulted in action on CCP's behalf involve players exploiting the game. 0.9% involve volunteers and maybe 0.1% involve employees.

So, don't worry this much. If the 0.1% gains even a fractionally better understanding of their game that they can apply to battling the 99% you're winning.

note: these stats are entirely made up of course, as all stats on the internet are. The gist of the argumetn should be clear to anyone that's outgrown the foetal stage however.


Methos
Caldari
The Chosen
Posted - 2007.05.30 17:46:00 - [343]
 

its a simple solution, and it is CCPs fault for letting any of these issues crop up. 1. dev accounts only play one test server not live, GMs and ISD play in one corp. No paying player corps. 2. When incidents like the T20 thing come up, employee is summarly fired, all the bpos that were spawned are destroyed, accounts that accepted them are banned, which in both cases were not, and a formal appology is sent out to the eve client base. CCP wants it players trust then they need to do things that promote trust not guffaw and puff thier chests out and tell us not to look at the little men behind the curtain. As my quote says and it is still true to this day over 2000 years have passed "we are what we repeatedly do, excelence is not and act, but a habit" CCP has already had 1 confirmed incident. That just means the next one is looming and rest assured if they dont change things it will happen again as someone pointed out in an earlier post its just human nature to want ot help yourself and your friends out. And I agree. Nuff said. Very Happy

Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.05.30 17:47:00 - [344]
 

Yes. They should do whatever they please.

If you don't like it. Quit.

Rufo Kathcar
Posted - 2007.05.30 19:13:00 - [345]
 

Devs and GMs should definitely play the live game that they develop and administer. It gives them real world perspective.

However, their personal accounts and characters should be absolutely normal "civilians" with no extraordinary abilities, interfaces, powers or resources whatsoever.

While special GM and Dev accounts are obviously needed on the live server in order to adminster and troubleshoot the game, they should never be used for ordinary gameplay.

When GMs and Devs play their ordinary personal accounts, they should not (on pain of discipline and/or termination) reveal their employment status to any other player, either in game or via outside channels.

Enacting and enforcing these guidelines would improve player trust and enjoyment of the game.

Luke Skyrider
DAB
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:13:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Luke Skyrider on 30/05/2007 21:26:25
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Dramaticus
There is absolutely zero reason for any CCP employee or volunteer to be playing on Tranquility when there are two perfectly good test servers(albeit 1 public) available.


Read the goddamn devblog. Arkanon explains it a lot better than I ever could.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472

Originally by: Arkanon
While itís somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it.

There is simply no way to develop a world as complex as this without experiencing it firsthand. You cannot develop it by proxy, evaluate fun through statistics, or make judgments without fully understanding how it grows and evolves, especially when nearly everything we create and place in EVE can be used by players in ways that were never anticipated.

In order to do justice to our game and to meet your expectations, we must share your frustrations, joys, successes and failures. One cannot fully appreciate the investment of time and effort that players make without trying it one's self. Every employee at CCP should know what it is like to work themselves to exhaustion for something you, the EVE community, believe in and love, in game and out. At the same time, each and every CCP employee is expected to exercise their judgment while doing so and treat EVE, CCP and our customers with the respect they deserve. Nothing else is acceptable, not to you and certainly not to us.



Well the fact is the main cause for devs cheating and abusing their position within CCP are to much conflict of interest or personal, corp or alliance interest that outweight or compete with CCP interest. To help prevent this CCP need to "police" their employees which should not get "to involved" with corp or alliance politics and other influential positions.

Playing as grunts with non-influential positions are the way to limit conflict of interest so it's less likely that devs are able and willing to abuse their position within CCP. The devs should act as professionals and stop acting like a bunch of amateurs with conflict of interest that undermine their CCP profession. Same apply to other similar games with online competition. Game developers should not "play to win" but play to improve the game. That's what they get paid for.

The devs that step over the line should be fired, period. You are either a professional or not. The devs cheating certainly dont keep CCP and the EVE community in their best interest. So perhabs it's time to clean house?

Conflict of interest? what? Trust us we are on your side! Rolling Eyes

Conflict of interest = Not trust worthy


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