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Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.08 22:10:00 - [1]
 

For my statistics I used my homebrew formula:

I = Y * Sum[R(m)*P(m)] / (V * B)

where

I = ISK earned per minute
V = volume of the ore in m3
B = refning batch size of the ore
Y = mining yield of your ship in m3 per minute
R(m) = refining batch yield of mineral m from this ore
P(m) = market value in isk of 1 unit of that mineral m

In broad laymans terms, I am looking at which minerals my ore at hand refines into, then find out how much they are worth, sum up the market values of the refined batch, and divide it by the amount of work that my mining lasers need to do to pull in a refine-able batch of ore. Finally, I go and multiply in the total mining yield of the ship: the more the better, obviously!

For a useful statistic, however, the numbers need to be totally independent of a player's ship or skills. Therefore I dropped the variable Y from the calculations.

The result is a number of the dimension "ISK per m3 per minute". It will tell you exactly how much money you will be making by lasering away at that rock in front of you, with all you have to know yourself being your ship's mining yield (i.e. the missing variable Y). An example will be included in post 2.

--------------------------------------------------------

Now, to start calculating values, I need prices. Prices are best checked at the local trade hub of your preference. Since I live in the north, I went and checked Jita; obviously, if I had checked Rens or another different trade hub, the numbers would have been slightly different. I also looked at the current price movement tendency, for pure statistics purposes.

P(m) values (Jita, 2007.05.08 02:22):
Tritanium 2.44, falling
Pyerite 9.20, falling
Mexallon 27.41, rising
Isogen 87.12, falling
Nocxium 194.00, falling
Zydrine 1150.00, falling
Megacyte 4327.00, stable
Morphite 3823.76, stable

--------------------------------------------------------

Using the above prices and formula, I calculated the following ranking table of ores:

ISK per m3 per minute while mining this ore:
73.27 Veldspar
76.66 Jaspet
80.33 Pyroxeres
88.96 Hemorphite
95.42 Omber
105.98 Plagioclase
111.44 Hedbergite
115.82 Gneiss
116.16 Kernite
117.31 Scordite
120.35 Dark Ochre
152.19 Spodumain
202.66 Mercoxit
206.87 Crokite
352.80 Bistot
509.96 Arkonor

In laymans terms: for every m3 that your ship's mining lasers can produce, you will earn for example roughly 80 ISK per minute, if you were currently mining Pyroxeres. If you switched to mining Scordite instead, you would be earning a significant amount more!

This clearly shows that, if you plan to sell in Jita, Arkonor is the best ore to mine!

Due to the widespread fall of the value of Zydrine and Morphite, this is likely true all across New Eden; but considering that the north has no Arkonor outside exploration, this might influence local prices. I predict the gap between the high-end ores to be smaller in systems near Arkonor carrying 0.0 space.

I must admit in shame that I have lost most of my data from pre-revelations about 6 months ago, but from memory I can say that most mining rewards have practically disintegrated. Hemorphite was once over 240, now you get less than 90 for it. Crokite, Bistot and Arkonor all were between 550 and 600 then; now, Crokite is only worth a third as much, Bistot lost nearly half, and even Arkonor diminished slightly. Jaspet, actually a lowsec ore, struggles greatly to even stay in competition with common Veldspar. Mercoxit as the ex-king of ore has lost just about all its value when comparing it to what it once was... and that despite the noticeably increased production of tech 2 items and ships that Invention has brought us.

I plan to keep making this statistic on a monthly basis; I find it interesting to track the rewards involved in mining and also document the effect of the soon-to-come Revelations 2 patch. If it has anywhere near as much effect on the market as Revelations 1, prices are in for a wild ride again!

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.08 22:11:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ishina Fel on 08/05/2007 22:36:52
DISCLAIMER:
The above statistics make the following assumptions.
1.) 100% refining yield
2.) 0% refining tax
3.) 0% sales tax
4.) Mining the base ore variant
5.) Rounded to the second digit after the comma

Watch the God Mode Hulk mine!

Halada's Complete Mining Guide, stickyfied in this forum, presents us a Hulk that pulls in a crazy 2347.48 m3 per 3 minutes with each of its three lasers. This directly translates into a yield of 2347.48 m3 per minute for that ship.

If this Hulk mined for a full hour on each of the ores above, how much would the pilot earn?

To that end, I take the ISK / m3 / minute value from my table above, multiply it by 60 to get an hour, and then multiply it by the Hulk's yield.

(disclaimer: ignores a minimal yield loss through truncated ore batches. Rounded to the second digit after the comma.)

Veldspar: 10319991.58 ISK (10.3 million)
Jaspet: 10796,060.52 ISK (10.8 million)
Pyroxeres: 11314384.10 ISK (11.3 million)
Hemorphite: 12529909.25 (12.5 million)
Omber: 13439792.50 (13.4 million)
Plagioclase: 14927155.82 (14.9 million)
Hedbergite: 15696190,27 (15.7 million)
Gneiss: 16313108.02 (16.3 million)
Kernite: 16360996.61 (16.4 million)
Scordite: 16522972.73 (16.5 million)
Dark Ochre: 16951153.08 (17.0 million)
Spodumain: 21435778.87 (21.4 million)
Mercoxit: not applicable
Crokite: 29137391.26 (29.1 million)
Bistot: 49691456.64 (50.0 million)
Arkonor: 71827254.05 (71.8 million)

Unfortunately, the golden days of over 100 million per hour are over... even if you add mining drones, it will not change these figures much. And this is the non plus ultra example.

Still, I wouldn't say no to near 72 million per hour either Cool Give Arkonor belts!

Bellac
Posted - 2007.05.09 11:48:00 - [3]
 

Roughly speaking these figurees tie in with my own - a nice piece of work - but 194 for nocx?

OK I havn't checked the markets lately as I have been busy with other ventures but this seems to be at least 100 isk too low???

Dei
Amarr
Mamaleek
Posted - 2007.05.09 11:58:00 - [4]
 

So high sec > low sec (if you just mine scordite). But I guess if you want the big roids of scordite, then low sec is probably better if a local station buys at the right price.

Arachidamia
Minmatar
Matari People's Front
Posted - 2007.05.09 12:43:00 - [5]
 

Found a belt of Omber and Kernite in an exploration site last night. Shame it's worth less than a common ore you can find anywhere I guess? Razz

More I play, the more I realise mining is useless as a form of income. Boring, time consuming, and it pays less than anything else. A days worth of skills and a new character could outfit a destroyer with guns and salvagers and rat+salvage in 0.5. And in my experience that would easily pay better than a Retriever constantly mining the best ores available in "safe" space. Yet it requires less money in equipment, less time, less hassle and far less skills trained. Go figure.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.09 17:20:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Bellac
Roughly speaking these figurees tie in with my own - a nice piece of work - but 194 for nocx?

OK I havn't checked the markets lately as I have been busy with other ventures but this seems to be at least 100 isk too low???


Looking at the 3-month price statistic graph, the Nocxium market has more or less crashed. Just after revelations, it soared up to past 650, but then for some reason (probably another game change involving the new reqion spawn/drop rates) the supply or demand must have changed dramatically again.

That said - prices in your region may vary from Jita!

Derovius Vaden
Posted - 2007.05.09 20:55:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ishina Fel
Originally by: Bellac
Roughly speaking these figurees tie in with my own - a nice piece of work - but 194 for nocx?

OK I havn't checked the markets lately as I have been busy with other ventures but this seems to be at least 100 isk too low???


Looking at the 3-month price statistic graph, the Nocxium market has more or less crashed. Just after revelations, it soared up to past 650, but then for some reason (probably another game change involving the new reqion spawn/drop rates) the supply or demand must have changed dramatically again.

That said - prices in your region may vary from Jita!


Jita is EVE.

blueska
Posted - 2007.05.10 04:26:00 - [8]
 

How many M^3 can a skiff mine compared to a hulk.. without a gang etc.. trying to decide how merx compares to the other ores. Need to compare hulk mining 0.0 ores.. vs skiff mining merx.

Filthy Pierre
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.05.10 07:37:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Filthy Pierre on 10/05/2007 07:33:50
Delete.


Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.10 16:19:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: blueska
How many M^3 can a skiff mine compared to a hulk.. without a gang etc.. trying to decide how merx compares to the other ores. Need to compare hulk mining 0.0 ores.. vs skiff mining merx.


A Skiff mining Mercoxit will be better than a Hulk mining Crokite or below in the listing if you have trained Exhumer V (the logistic hassle of hauling the 10k m3 per single refine batch aside).

A Hulk mining Bistot or Arkonor will be more money efficient than a Skiff mining Mercoxit, more or less no matter the skills.

For details I recommend The Complete Miner's Guide which compares Hulks and Skiffs in terms of yield.

Xaliendraa Khaine
Amarr
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.05.10 16:40:00 - [11]
 

Now guys this is very interesting , but hardly possible

I have a Hulk, with skill Exhumers at IV
Michi Implant +5%
HX-2 Implant +5%
Tech Ii strip Miners + Tech II crystal
Mining Foreman at 2 and improving on an alt

I get 13,500 Plagi per 3 minutes, or 270,000 an hour , less if you mine 30-40k roids that pop and you get less
as matter of course

now I am pretty close to being maxxed here, a lot closer anyway than I had to go a while back

ther eis no way you make 14 million per hour mining plag or scord or the numbers here

in 5+ Hours, I made 44 million minng plag and 7 million mining scord.

That's 51 million in 5.25 hours or so, or less than 10M an hour

IMO, these numbers are highly suspect

I want to be proven wrong, but consistently people have been overestimating money and yield
lately on these threads

am I doing anything wrong ?

even an extra 10% in final bonuses would never bring me to 70 million for 5 hours or 14 million an hour

Over to you all
Xali

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.05.10 19:00:00 - [12]
 

That really high number presented was theoretical max. Meaning all relevant skills at lev 5 plus implants plus commandship running leadership modules in gang. Skill and implantwice it's indeed quite close. Commandship is lacking. Too lazy at this moment to to the actual math for it tho :)

Niton Stormrider
Offworld Miners and Fabricators Guild
Rising Orbit Free Trade League
Posted - 2007.05.10 20:52:00 - [13]
 

OP: Looks pretty good, jives very well with my own math. I'm still facing an uphill battle convincing the other miners in my corp that NO, omber is not cash on the hoof like it used to be, but meh...old habits die hard. But I have to agree with Arachidamia; infact, I spend a lot of salvaging then mining these days, because the money is simply better. Sure, the uber-miner makes pretty decent money, but it takes MONTHS of training and hundreds of millions of ISK worth of gear. I still mine, though, because I am deranged enough to find it fun. Mining is dabbled in by more or less everyone, but as a profession it is bouyed and supported by the core folks who do it because they enjoy it, who want to become the best miners they can be because of the patience and exactitude involved and not because it is the quickest way to get rich. Halada didn't publish a 60 page mining guide to make ISK, after all! It's like a hobby within a game, and because of that mining will persist no matter how far mineral prices fall.

Kikie
Posted - 2007.05.10 21:05:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Xaliendraa Khaine
Now guys this is very interesting , but hardly possible

I have a Hulk, with skill Exhumers at IV
Michi Implant +5%
HX-2 Implant +5%
Tech Ii strip Miners + Tech II crystal
Mining Foreman at 2 and improving on an alt

I get 13,500 Plagi per 3 minutes, or 270,000 an hour , less if you mine 30-40k roids that pop and you get less
as matter of course

now I am pretty close to being maxxed here, a lot closer anyway than I had to go a while back

ther eis no way you make 14 million per hour mining plag or scord or the numbers here

in 5+ Hours, I made 44 million minng plag and 7 million mining scord.

That's 51 million in 5.25 hours or so, or less than 10M an hour

IMO, these numbers are highly suspect

I want to be proven wrong, but consistently people have been overestimating money and yield
lately on these threads

am I doing anything wrong ?

even an extra 10% in final bonuses would never bring me to 70 million for 5 hours or 14 million an hour

Over to you all
Xali
Using a mining calculation spreadsheet and your skills I show 1,602.74 M3/min vs maxed out exhumer with full gang skills at 2,245.97 or 1.4 times as much. So your 10 million per hour would be 14 million which sounds about right for a combination of plag and scor.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.10 23:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Ishina Fel on 10/05/2007 23:21:09
Indeed... Halada didn't call it the "God Mode Hulk" for nothing Cool

Read the guide, you will see how he got it up there.

As a matter of fact though, due to all the slight rounding errors and ideal state assumptions, it is safe to say that even that God Mode Hulk loses roughly 10% in income to refining waste and tax, minerals sales tax, mining laser downtime while switching roids, wasted time on the last cycle, truncated mining yield and so on.

However, if he mined the best ore variant, he would gain +10% refining yield. Which would pretty much nullify these losses again.

Xaliendraa Khaine
Amarr
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.05.11 11:46:00 - [16]
 

Well not really ishina, as there are limited number of +10% roids, they are smaller (they are mined more often), so you lose more time switching roids

if you jump belts and get only teh +5% and +10%, more time wasted.

I think your idea of -10% across the board is really reasonable, there is no way, every cycle of every strip miner rakes in max amounts of ore, as the last hit on rock might get 200-3500 or anything in between that (if 3500 is the max draw from a particular oid, in my example..)

You lose to smaller draw on last roid
switching roid
moving from one end of belt to another as you cleaned it out
Travelling from 1 belt to another, and finding a good spot. worse yet, jumping system

Still, I am satisfied with Plagi and scord lately, gives me the best minerals for my building program.

yeah, I don't sell my mining, I use it, so double benefit imo

Question: any one has any ideas why Pyerite and Mexallon are the only minerals that exploded upwards with revelations, and did not come down ??

Just curious, why it's so good in high sec right now; I love it!

XaliCool




Lazarus 745
Gallente
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2007.05.11 12:58:00 - [17]
 

you all so need to put in any hauling cost and or time.
which can be a lot.

Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2007.05.11 13:55:00 - [18]
 

No wonder mining rewards in relation to skill investment are not nearly comparable with ratting or mission running rewards. Ratting and mission running is ISK generation, there is no need for demand, there is no competition, increasing supply has no consequences on rewards. CCP somehow "fixed" that in the Drone regions, but they were not consistent enough to remove bounty on all rats, so this isn't really a fix. There also "fixed" the farming of static complexes with the introduction of exploration, but again were not consistent enough to just remove all static complexes right away. Sadly, the Drone "fix" to the bounty ISK generation problem even complicated the miners' work, because now they are not only in competition with other miners, but also with ratters...

So my statement: Stop ISK generation (bounties, Overseer's effects, etc.) to make professions, where there is competition, more worthwile again. Wasn't there a statement of Tuxford once, saying that EVE is a PVP game, with PVP on all levels of gameplay (= competition)? Where is PVP in bounty ratting and mission whoring (except from the risk of getting ganked)?

Of course, on the other hand, players just want their ISKs to be happy, so why not just give them ISK? Following that philosophy, maybe minimum priced NPC sell orders for minerals would "solve" the problem...?

Spoon Thumb
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.05.11 13:56:00 - [19]
 


My corp put scordite just above dark ochre using Matari mineral index.

Next low sec mining op, our friends in the combat corp are gonna be like "Wtf you're mining scord?" Cool

Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2007.05.11 14:03:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Spoon Thumb

Next low sec mining op, our friends in the combat corp are gonna be like "Wtf you're mining scord?" Cool



Hehe, you certainly won't get any problems with gankers, they will most probably assume it's a trap :).

Xaliendraa Khaine
Amarr
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.05.11 17:22:00 - [21]
 

Sorry, to repeat, no one answered my question:

Question: any one has any ideas why Pyerite and Mexallon are the only minerals that exploded upwards with revelations, and did not come down ??

I remember Nocxium spiking to 650+, now it at 195 and getting lower. Isogen is now below 90.

Mexallon and Pyerite, nicely up to 30 and 9.2, respectively

anyone ?
Xali


Dei
Amarr
Mamaleek
Posted - 2007.05.11 17:50:00 - [22]
 

Probably something to do with the big war of BoB vs. Coalition. Lots of things are dying and mex and pye are needed in vast quantities for their lost ships. Demand > Supply.

When the Coalition finally gives up or BoB dies then we'll probably see the prices go down again.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.12 00:18:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Xaliendraa Khaine
Sorry, to repeat, no one answered my question:

Question: any one has any ideas why Pyerite and Mexallon are the only minerals that exploded upwards with revelations, and did not come down ??

I remember Nocxium spiking to 650+, now it at 195 and getting lower. Isogen is now below 90.

Mexallon and Pyerite, nicely up to 30 and 9.2, respectively

anyone ?
Xali




EVE's mineral market is working close enough to the simple supply/demand economic idealization model to make the assumption that Pyerite and Mexallon are the only two of the eight minerals that currently have more demand than supply.

Morphite for example has nearly zero demand - you need very small quantities, and even then only for tech2 production, which in turn is only a small fraction of all production happening. In the beginning the price was high simply because few people had the equipment to mine it (largely tech2 items themselves). By now, everyone can do it, but it's simply drowning the market in an immense oversupply that can't be used up nearly as quickly as it keeps coming.

Zydrine has a similar issue. The high end drone rats drop alloys that refine into Zydrine. Also, shortly before revelations it became widely known that Crokite is all the rage for money earning. Basically, by now everyone is producing Zydrine in some way.
Noxcium and Isogen are tied into this - both are candidates you see a lot in drone alloys, and also come from the formerly most popular ore types (Omber, Pyroxeres) that got progressively macromined in highsec.

Tritanium stayed pretty stable. Everything refines into Tritanium, be it mission runner / ratter loot and almost every type of ore. Prices did increase due to increased demand from tier 3 battleships, which everyone wanted, but since then it has gone back to normal.

Megacyte has, surprisingly, not fallen all that much. One would expect the supply to have increased with the new regions, but it hasn't really happened. Confuses me a bit, to be honest.

Now, Pyerite and Mexallon are low-end minerals, thus have a high demand. However, they're not classical candidates to be gotten from drone alloys in any reasonable amounts. Neither are they really present in the formerly popular ore types. I would say that this is a case where the fact that everything else has gotten so much cheaper has led to increased demand on these minerals as well, which so far hasn't been fully met. When more and people switch to mining Gneiss, Kernite, Plagioclase and Scordite, this may change; but it will likely require a very large volume of ore being mined.

Windryder
Posted - 2007.05.12 02:28:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Xaliendraa Khaine
Sorry, to repeat, no one answered my question:

Question: any one has any ideas why Pyerite and Mexallon are the only minerals that exploded upwards with revelations, and did not come down ??

I remember Nocxium spiking to 650+, now it at 195 and getting lower. Isogen is now below 90.

Mexallon and Pyerite, nicely up to 30 and 9.2, respectively

anyone ?
Xali




Drone Regions.

Drone-rats drop plenty of their special alloys that refine down to the "higher" minerals - Iso, Nocx, Zyd, Mega

Drone BS are so high in Morphite, and so "easy" to take down that they are covering the T2 and invention demand easily... hence the crash.

Pi-rats drop plenty of loot that when refined, is very high in Trit - passive targeters, armour reppers, etc

Also Trit has an upper limit of around 3 isk/unit - at which point it becomes cheaper to buy shuttles from NPC corps and refine them.

That leaves Pyerite and Mexallon as fairly high-use minerals that (mostly) can only be mined. Hence supply can't keep up with demand and prices soar.

IMO

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.05.12 20:04:00 - [25]
 

also there is a large kernite ore market, there are several missions that need you to provide a couple thousand ore. this cuts allot of mex and pyr out of the market at the source.

It is actually more valuable to sell kernite as ore than to refine it.

Joseph Boscorelli
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.13 22:27:00 - [26]
 

Ishina Fel,

Love the sig Very Happy

To the memory of speckled Jim!

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.05.14 03:30:00 - [27]
 

Hehe, thank you, but credit for those sigs (it's a random rotator) all goes to Fotoflame. Smile

Paigan
Amarr
Thirdwave
Posted - 2007.05.14 10:07:00 - [28]
 

How much does a miner earn per hour?

In the long run (taking risk, safespotting, tax, refining, transport, orethieves, extra gang module guys, EVERYTHING) into account:

A maxed out Hulk in high sec:
Less then a level3 high sec mission runner

A maxed out Hulk in 0.0:
Less then a level4 high sec mission runner


That's all you need to know :P


You may flame now :D

Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
Posted - 2007.05.14 11:20:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Xaliendraa Khaine
Now guys this is very interesting , but hardly possible

I have a Hulk, with skill Exhumers at IV
Michi Implant +5%
HX-2 Implant +5%
Tech Ii strip Miners + Tech II crystal
Mining Foreman at 2 and improving on an alt

I get 13,500 Plagi per 3 minutes, or 270,000 an hour , less if you mine 30-40k roids that pop and you get less
as matter of course

now I am pretty close to being maxxed here, a lot closer anyway than I had to go a while back

ther eis no way you make 14 million per hour mining plag or scord or the numbers here

in 5+ Hours, I made 44 million minng plag and 7 million mining scord.

That's 51 million in 5.25 hours or so, or less than 10M an hour

IMO, these numbers are highly suspect

I want to be proven wrong, but consistently people have been overestimating money and yield
lately on these threads

am I doing anything wrong ?

even an extra 10% in final bonuses would never bring me to 70 million for 5 hours or 14 million an hour

Over to you all
Xali



Your complaint has some merit, but screams "missed the point." He's talking theoretical maximum yield. You're complaining that you can't achieve theoretical maximum yield, but something less.

This is to be expected. Theoretical maximum yield doesn't include pops, movement, re-targeting, over-run of the hold when you spouse calls, or any of the other things that happen to prevent perfect staggered strip after perfect staggered strip.

I do the same thing every week, but I use the Jetcan value. i.e., how much money would I get for a full jetcan. So, yes, if his mineral values are solid, his numbers are fine too. But mineral numbers are subjective. My numbers also differ from his because I use the market finder and use what I call "Tenth Large Buy" order for my value. i.e., I put in a limit of 1,000k units (minimum) for high sec minerals. I look at the 10th price in the last 360 hours. Then I run my computation.

The numbers I ran last Monday say:

Scord & Kern are pretty much the same.
Omber and Plag are pretty much the same.
Pyrox and Veld are pretty much the same.

Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
Posted - 2007.05.14 11:21:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Niton Stormrider
OP: Looks pretty good, jives very well with my own math. I'm still facing an uphill battle convincing the other miners in my corp that NO, omber is not cash on the hoof like it used to be, but meh...old habits die hard. But I have to agree with Arachidamia; infact, I spend a lot of salvaging then mining these days, because the money is simply better. Sure, the uber-miner makes pretty decent money, but it takes MONTHS of training and hundreds of millions of ISK worth of gear. I still mine, though, because I am deranged enough to find it fun. Mining is dabbled in by more or less everyone, but as a profession it is bouyed and supported by the core folks who do it because they enjoy it, who want to become the best miners they can be because of the patience and exactitude involved and not because it is the quickest way to get rich. Halada didn't publish a 60 page mining guide to make ISK, after all! It's like a hobby within a game, and because of that mining will persist no matter how far mineral prices fall.



Ha ha ha... Been there, done that, sold the movie rights... I let them do what they want on their time. When it's an op, we follow my plan.


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