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Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.01 03:48:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Zarthan on 01/01/2004 03:51:08

For starters some idea’s are indeed borrowed from others but I think overall it all ends up fair for all. No I don't know it all so people's idea's are welcome as well as spins on the one's I thought of. Reason I did this was you just see so much whinning on the forums that to end it all why not brainstorm solutions instead of complain about the problems. Ok on to the subject at hand with that in mind.

Note: this is lengthy so read at your own risk.

Problem 1: Pirates not being able to use 0.0 space to pirate because quite frankly there are very few people in 0.0 space. Also highway systems and empire space being strip mined to the point that n00bs can’t even get themselves off the ground without moving to a .4 where their n00b ship can’t even cut it.

Proposed solution: Stations in 0.0 should offer lower prices npc wise on goods and buy at higher prices then empire space. They should do so in a way that it would be more profitable and worth the extra risk to go to 0.0 for traders.

Everything in empire space should be taxed heavily in empire space and lightly in non-empire space. Thusly meaning in 1.0 space the stations will take half your ore and in 0.0 take little to none, in this plan even .1 would be much higher then .0. Likewise renting factories should be extremely more expensive and same goes for offices research labs etc. Doing this for larger corps would make empire space extremely mediocre in profitability where as 0.0 would offer much better profitability.

Problem 2: Storyline or the slowness of it and or lack their of for some

Proposed solution: Give the players a higher ability to move the storyline along. What I mean by this is allow players for instance to submit a story to the CCP and get approval to get the “tools” necessary from CCP to carry it out. Granted they couldn’t be all out wars between empires, but they at least could offer players something of interest to keep them in with the game for the role players. Furthermore instead of just making stories for the news about events that “happened” get a group of volunteers together who would actually carry out the story. An example would be have someone fly around as doriam and visit the planets, yes that’d be boring but it’d add that little bit to the stories that is missing.

Problem 3: Bounty hunter just flat out don’t have the tools to be bounty hunters, and to some extent neither do pirates.

Proposed solution: We need things like warp trail locators or advanced ship scanners allowing people to find those hiding in dead space. Furthermore the warp inhibitors could also aid bounty hunters, and yes pirates in order to help close a system down so that their prey could not escape. Also to prevent the local n00b from blasting the tools out of the equation I’d suggest making these things at lest able to withstand a fair amount of beating, with something like 3k of hit points so only someone who truly needed them gone could destroy them.

Also on a more elaborated note on ship warp trail locators or something of the like. When you warp to the other ship it should be at a distance of your choosing exactly the way the gates are setup. This would allow the different ship classes to play to their strengths. Really a simpler solution would be to add a warp to feature for objects in the ship scanner.

Problem 4: NPC spawns wack jack difficulties

Proposed solution: for the love of god 15 cruisers should NOT be guarding jaspet. The number of npc’s and difficulty should directly reflect the ore in the area. Yes arknor should be guarded by bs npc’s but as said before 15 cruisers shouldn’t be on top of jaspet. Also some systems and regions still could use a slight boost in the types of ores they have. In gallentee space to fine good rocks you have to go all the way into the outer ring and likewise for Caldari space where you must head far into tribute.

Problem 5: My poor poor indy is ganked far to easily

Proposed solution: here I reluctantly must agree indys for the most part are very easy prey. However the solution is not making them faster no no no, if anything they should be slower. However, they should have at least the shield outputs of cruisers if not slightly more. They should be very slow heavily armored and shielded ships that are easy to stop but not destroy.

Problem 6: This is a personal pet peeve being the regular cc’s are far too weak

Proposed solution: boost them up to like 2k-3k of hit points so that your last volley of torpedoes doesn’t blow up the guy’s container. Likewise for pods for the victim’s sake leave them super slow but boost the hit points up a touch so that those lingering torpedoes don’t blow the person away along with their goods. This would benefit pirates and their victim

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.01 03:48:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Zarthan on 03/01/2004 23:09:41
Edited by: Zarthan on 01/01/2004 22:51:13
Edited by: Zarthan on 01/01/2004 03:55:22

Problem 7: missile defense is still non-existent. Earlier today my corp. member andi were board and decided wth and were board will fight this battleship. We jammed him as we were in cruisers he fired fof missiles. Ok I thought great I’ll fire my defenders, but guess what, the fof went after my friend and the defenders refused to fire. Ok so time to warp out, well friend leaves now the fof missiles come after me. What happens really ticks me off as the fof come after me my defenders go after the missiles the person launched forever ago that are 50 km away instead of after the missiles 10k away headed after me. So basically defenders are dumb and suck rather badly

Proposed solution: To fix them make defender missels smarter and have them move much quicker so that it’s at least possible to take out the missels that threaten your ship.
They should go after the missiles close to your ship. Also for those without missile bays ad a missile defense turret like phalanx that could at least get 1 missile per activation.

Added 01/01/04
Problem 8: Security status and the loss and or gain of. Currently IMO getting from negative to even takes far to long. However, I do believe it shouldn't be easy either. On the flip side there should be some form of loss over time for postive raitings back to even.

Proposed Solution:

For negative people: I think that there should be a penalty for acting in a manner that puts you negative, however the current system requires what seems like weeks at a time (unless you can beat up on the uber npc spawns) to get back raiting. .1 per day may have been to quick however so i'd suggest going to .05 per day thusly making it take longer but not to long to gain back raiting. This way those who commit crimes will take penalty but it wont be something that takes 2 years to fix either. If npc gain still allows for quick status gain then possibly when negative you should get half as much for npc gains.

Postive Raitings: This should not go down very fast, however it should go down none the less. I think it would be fair to loose .1 per week or possibly per month depending on how difficult it is to gain that .1 which i don't think it is. With agents I think that if you are completly inactive with your agent for a week you should take a standings hit, but only if your inactive. That way people wouldn't just sit on their agents or use multiple agents only when they get the mission they want.

added 1/2/04
Problem 9 (i think) Moving Ships: Yes it's been said some repackaged ships may be able to be repackaged into indy's in the future, or at least it's beign considered, but what about larger ships?

Prosposed Solution: I'd suggest with the advent of tech 2 adding a new high slot moduel to the mix. This being a tractor beam of sorts and or tow chain. This would only be activateable on abandon ships in space. Also once in tow unless the ship doing the towing was destroyed or deactivated the tow line the abandon ship would be unable to be boarded. The size of the ship would effect the tow ships top speed, also I think to avoid explotation only an industrial should have the ability to use such items. This would allow people to move things like battleshisp to stations without actualyl being able to pilot the ship themselves (as docking with a ship in tow would dock both ships).

That’s all I got for now feedback welcome, try to keep the trolling to a minimum.

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 03:58:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 01/01/2004 06:43:08
See sig for help increasing NPC interaction and storyline.
(No not the Stavros pic Razz)

Surrender flag. Hit Surrender, all your ships mods turn off, engines off, shields off, and a little white flag appears on the target picture/beside their name, and once disabled it takes them 10 seconds to have those systems brought online (so you can't cheat by toggling on and off). It'd let people know when you wanted to negotiate...not as any sort of ability, doesn't disable the weapons of hostiles or anything, just a pure "Hey-please don't shoot? Will pay toll" sort of thing.

Even if you were on the verge of dying from the first enemy salvo, and hit Surrender, they might see the flag and turn off their guns in time to negotiate. Works at 60km in emp space too Very Happy.

WhiteDwarf
Caldari
Battlestars
Posted - 2004.01.01 04:03:00 - [4]
 

"Everything in empire space should be taxed heavily in empire space and lightly in non-empire space. Thusly meaning in 1.0 space the stations will take half your ore and in 0.0 take little to none, in this plan even .1 would be much higher then .0. Likewise renting factories should be extremely more expensive and same goes for offices research labs etc. Doing this for larger corps would make empire space extremely mediocre in profitability where as 0.0 would offer much better profitability"

I agree with this, but I would add that all ore should be available in Empire space, and the mega and zyd that the empire takes goes right on the market at npc prices keeping those in empire space from ever making more than that on high lvl mins...

Allowing the alliances to contol all the high level mins does not proliferate the feeling that "I can go out and PvP today, have some fun and maybe lose my ship" The high cost of mins controlled by alliances out in 0.0 space is driving up the cost of everything, only adding to the reluctance of PvP.

This way smaller corps and freelancers have a shot at making some money by producing ships & equipment with zyd & mega, allowing trades and such to venture into 0.0 space more often cause they are not so afraid to lose ships.

This would still allow alliances to mark their territory, mine there own high end ores, and build their own ships etc. And would keep bigger corps from gobbling up the high level mins in empire space if they are capable of getting it "tax free" out in 0.0 space if they can handle it out there...


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.01 04:05:00 - [5]
 

Quote:
Problem 1: Pirates not being able to use 0.0 space to pirate because quite frankly there are very few people in 0.0 space. Also highway systems and empire space being strip mined to the point that n00bs can’t even get themselves off the ground without moving to a .4 where their n00b ship can’t even cut it.

Proposed solution: Stations in 0.0 should offer lower prices npc wise on goods and buy at higher prices then empire space. They should do so in a way that it would be more profitable and worth the extra risk to go to 0.0 for traders.

Everything in empire space should be taxed heavily in empire space and lightly in non-empire space. Thusly meaning in 1.0 space the stations will take half your ore and in 0.0 take little to none, in this plan even .1 would be much higher then .0. Likewise renting factories should be extremely more expensive and same goes for offices research labs etc. Doing this for larger corps would make empire space extremely mediocre in profitability where as 0.0 would offer much better profitability.
...



0.0 space will never be appealing short of making it a requirement. Which would have disasterous effects on the economy and the general game health (read: Megacyte prices).

  1. The people in 0.0 space are self-sufficient for the most part.

  2. Empire space is profitable enough for most people (they'll mine scordite and recycle NPC goods to avoid going into 0.0 space).

  3. There are too many chokepoints and too few entry points.

  4. There aren't enough stations to support the population already there.

  5. Player owned structures will be a nightmare to defend, a nightmare to build or entirely pointless as a lure to bring people out there

  6. Few people want to spend an hour's worth of travel for 30 seconds of destruction



0.0 space is the worst place for pirates in terms of suitable income and game health overall.

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 04:16:00 - [6]
 

Quote:
  1. The people in 0.0 space are self-sufficient for the most part.

  2. Empire space is profitable enough for most people (they'll mine scordite and recycle NPC goods to avoid going into 0.0 space).

  3. There are too many chokepoints and too few entry points.

  4. There aren't enough stations to support the population already there.

  5. Player owned structures will be a nightmare to defend, a nightmare to build or entirely pointless as a lure to bring people out there

  6. Few people want to spend an hour's worth of travel for 30 seconds of destruction



3. I agree to an extent, but try to keep from going overboard with this one (would get messy if every system suddenly sprouted a 0.0 jumpgate).
4. Player owned stations. It's 0.0 for a reason.
5. You got 20 people in a system at any given time and you can muster some sort of defence. Throw in sentries.
6. Morphite. T3 ore (see stations-T3). Large quantities of megacyte and zyd.

If you get significant refine discounts, higher sale prices, lower buy prices (considerable differences, not just 5 or 6 isk more), it will attract a lot of people to 0.0.

Jael Markinsen
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.01.01 04:29:00 - [7]
 

First of all, great post! this is exactly what we need to see more of. I know some people would say that they have done this too, and that's true, but the idea of re-enforcing those thoughts and ideas over and over again is what will bring about the changes we would most like to see.

Second of all, The proposed solution you mention here for problem number 5 is one I haven't seen put forth so far. This is one good idea, in that, something of this nature to be implemented in the game would go far to making "tolling" an especially viable option as regards to indy's.

Third of all, problem number 7's solution about an anti-missile defense turret, which you call the "phalanx" after the RL phalanx CIWS anti-missile system found on aircraft carriers and such, is something I have also thought about once upon a time, matter of fact, it was while reading about the devastating effects of RL anti-shipping missiles used in various conflicts. Two most notable being the french made Exocet and the u.s. navy's Harpoon anti-ship missile. Very good idea, seeing as how you have so many different kinds of missiles and torpedoes and not half as many point defense options to go against it.


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.01 04:36:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jash Illian on 01/01/2004 04:42:04
Quote:
Quote:
  1. The people in 0.0 space are self-sufficient for the most part.

  2. Empire space is profitable enough for most people (they'll mine scordite and recycle NPC goods to avoid going into 0.0 space).

  3. There are too many chokepoints and too few entry points.

  4. There aren't enough stations to support the population already there.

  5. Player owned structures will be a nightmare to defend, a nightmare to build or entirely pointless as a lure to bring people out there

  6. Few people want to spend an hour's worth of travel for 30 seconds of destruction



3. I agree to an extent, but try to keep from going overboard with this one (would get messy if every system suddenly sprouted a 0.0 jumpgate).


If the CA/CFS fracas in Khanid/JK-FIX didn't show people how easily access to 0.0 can be shut down, I dunno what will. CA wasn't even trying hard to cut it off. A serious blockade and the only viable way into JK-FIX is time prohibitive. And most people are unlikely to survive anyways.

Do the same at every exit point from Empire space into non-Empire space and 0.0 systems access is cut off. Nobody has bothered to try it yet. But anyone capable of analyzing a map and gathering the strength can wall the playerbase inside Empire space with ease. Hell, might not take that much actual strength as much as perceived strength (CA/CFS fracas again for examples).

Quote:
4. Player owned stations. It's 0.0 for a reason.


I just don't see this happening. If they're destructable/conquerable, they'll never amount to anything more than a depot. If they're permanent structures, then people will still have no reason to go to 0.0 unless they own their own station. Which most people won't/shouldn't be capable of doing.


Quote:
5. You got 20 people in a system at any given time and you can muster some sort of defence. Throw in sentries.


Go start a free trial at AO. Watch the Tower Battles channel. See how often base locations change hands. And the bases there are only vulnerable about 3-4 hours a day.

Quote:
6. Morphite. T3 ore (see stations-T3). Large quantities of megacyte and zyd.

If you get significant refine discounts, higher sale prices, lower buy prices (considerable differences, not just 5 or 6 isk more), it will attract a lot of people to 0.0.


People got around the megacyte issue easily enough. TL2+ items will never be a requirement unless you already exist in 0.0. People will quite merrily mine in 1.0 space in their TL1 battleships if visiting 0.0 becomes a requirement to advance. Or they'll quit.

I honestly don't see a way to keep Empire and non-Empire space from becoming two separate entities. I never have since it became obvious during beta that more stations in 0.0 were never going to appear, 0.0 had no resources required to play the game and the topology of the universe is essentially waiting for someone to go Roman on us.

Forcing people into 0.0 will break the game on many levels, especially economically and PvP. Leaving 0.0 optional is breaking the game currently. Empire space actually is better setup, in terms of player needs and infrastructure, for the game's overall health.

P.S.
Even if the situation can be corrected to avoid the issues I mentioned, most of us prolly won't be here to see it. Those are some major logic flaws that'll require Shiva + extra elbow grease. During which time many will leave or watch their friends leave and follow them. Because the issues are causing the game to stagnate severely.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:24:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 01/01/2004 05:31:52

A very good post monsieur Zarthan, well thought out and imaginative. I think you have hit on the essential problem afflicting eve at present, which is that 0.0 (and the attendent free fire zone for PvP intended by design) is not attractive enough to make people take the risk of visiting.

Point 1 is great, sensible in terms of dynamics and sensible in terms of game background and rationalé - (I'd love to see the tax rate in empire vary btw, on prevailing political situation and wars.)

Point 2 is also good, and it wouldn't surprise me to see current events guys thinking along those lines. Interactivity with the background (or lack therein) is a big thing for me. I would love to see people actively altering the game universe.

Point 3 (totally agree) Bounty hunters need tools to do the job. At the moment they have the hardest profession in Eve. And their relative impotence in the face of the huge numbers of pirates is likely a factor in the lopsided PvP focus we see.

Point 4 (Yep) but hopefully being addressed soon.

Point 5 (An interesting solution) Would make for more stressful gate run-ins I guess (if the pirates forgot their webifiers) but to be honest your point 1, and suggesting much increased profits for the risk of 0.0 is the thing most likely to ever get me back in an Indy.

Point 6 (Sensible for cans and pods) Perfectly fair suggestion.

Point 7 (Good ideas again) Making Defenders smarter so that each engages a different warhead would be nice also.

I think these changes (particularly 1 and 3) will help a lot to resolve the issues in Eve. Unlike Jash I really don't believe in this .4 gate removal issue as being helpful.

I'd be happy to see some limited piracy in the fringes of empire space once (and if) we get concord graded response from .1 - .4 but until then the guns have to stay in order to focus piracy outside of empire. I find it absolutely unacceptable that pirates could 24/7 camp empire space with no Concord or empire response.

But the general principle remains - Carrots are better than sticks.

Give players a reason to risk 0.0 and the pirates will have their prey back. And the passive-industrialists of eve will keep their safe empire environment to play their game in.

Pirates should be fighting players that choose to take risk by engaging in high profit economic activities beyond empire space. (Not preying on those who chose to stay within the protection of the national navies and conduct defense forces). In the system Zarthan proposes the safe-space orientated players would be paying a price for their stability ... Higher taxes! and that is elegant and fair.

A game like Eve needs a variety of paths for success.

Slow and safe and reliable (empire)

Fast and risky and exciting (non-empire)

With some blurring on the edges (with graded concord intervention that allows pirates to get away with hit and run violence but not camp routinely as they are able to do in 0.0)

Thats my belief, and all this hogwash about "competitors" and "partipants" and "carebears" and "griefers" and nonsense like that is not helpful.

A game like this has to cater to all sorts.

And getting the risk/reward/progression system right is the key to making a working environment that suits everyone.

Love and peace

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:26:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 01/01/2004 06:02:27
Drop serial high sec pilots from the equation Jash. They don't count, never will.
Try and concentrate your thoughts on the people motivated enough to go out into 0.0. People who spinelessly mine in high sec are just that-spineless. All their day consists of is getting X scordite, pyro and omber each day and selling it so they can buy the next BP.
Casual, lazy, incompetent and/or carebear gamers never pioneered anything. Start looking at the people who were already in 0.0...the bistot miners. The pirates. The alliances. They were out there. Why?
Small bonuses. You got bistot and crokite in 0.0. That alone warranted the move to 0.0 space for hundreds, if not thousands of people. Why? It gives them an edge over the competition. It makes other things run faster, smoother, easier (production). The "challenging NPCs" patch and the sudden disappearance of anything above kernite from many if not most 0.0 belts has killed much the interest in 0.0 sec space.

Let's take your example of AO tower battles. Towers in AO give you...benefits of some sort I believe? Worth fighting over. It draws attention, competition, although possibly not vital.
Think of bistot as the towers.

Edit: OMG. I'm agreeing with Jade Shocked.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:34:00 - [11]
 


Its not that mad Drethen, I'm agreeing with Zarthan after all. And I think we are all seeing the truth of this problem.

0.0 has stopped being attractive.

And thats where CCP intended free-fire random PvP to happen.

Myros Glimmbrand
Ganja Co
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:35:00 - [12]
 

Empire space and its infrastructure is EVEs equivalent of cities in other MMORPGs. People have had a natural draw to commerce centers etc since the begining of our species. Other games have created 'pull' to the far reaches by placing dungeons and the like out there. These have the effect of creating a reason to brave the dangers. The main reason Ive seen listed for going to 0.0 in EVE is a few rocks. LOL. Oh yeah, we having fun now :)

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:41:00 - [13]
 


I think everyone agrees that there should be exciting things in 0.0 space.

The people I feel sorry for are the explorers.

By now these guys should be finding off map hidden stations, wierd technology, wormholes, freaky aliens.

(and at least some of them should have slept with green-skinned orion slave girls and talked artificially intelligent machine tyrants into self destructing)

CCP need a dev position for the guy that seeds a dozen wierd things into the far reaches of 0.0 each week.

Now that would be funky.

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 01/01/2004 05:52:50
Quote:
Empire space and its infrastructure is EVEs equivalent of cities in other MMORPGs. People have had a natural draw to commerce centers etc since the begining of our species. Other games have created 'pull' to the far reaches by placing dungeons and the like out there. These have the effect of creating a reason to brave the dangers. The main reason Ive seen listed for going to 0.0 in EVE is a few rocks. LOL. Oh yeah, we having fun now :)


The rocks draw miners, who draw protection against the NPCs. The miners draw pirates, who in turn draw self righteous *smiles* who don't like their way of operating. The anti pirates and miners draw traders, who, because space is semi colonised, see some chance of getting through to the stations out there. The pirates and antipirates draw producers, because they're suffering losses. The producers will want somewhere to operate freely and the traders and miners a safer, more accessible haven; hence the player owned stations. (I'd think of stations in Eve more along the lines of ports IRL...you don't have many of them popping up, maybe 1 or 2 per alliance to start, so they can draw the minerals faster and easier and safer, etc, so the traders and producers had somewhere to do their stuff under the fleet protection, etc...) The player owned stations and the alliances of miners, traders and their defenders attracts more people who see a safer environment, which in turn allows for expansion.
I've gone on enough I think. Those "few rocks" made the galaxy tick.

I think everyone agrees that there should be exciting things in 0.0 space.

Quote:
The people I feel sorry for are the explorers.

By now these guys should be finding off map hidden stations, wierd technology, wormholes, freaky aliens.

(and at least some of them should have slept with green-skinned orion slave girls and talked artificially intelligent machine tyrants into self destructing)

CCP need a dev position for the guy that seeds a dozen wierd things into the far reaches of 0.0 each week.

Now that would be funky.


Wouldn't make any sense. Imagine cataloguing a region totally, and then someone else shows up and finds something that has been there for years at the first planet you started searching?

3 possible things:
Items in deepspace. FRINGES of a system, not somewhere near it, but perhaps 20, 40 au from the nearest celestial body. Problem is of course the above: Searching and having to research the same spots.
Hidden, far-off (again, far off the edges of a system), unmarked jumpgates. A hidden jumpgate from Gehi to deep FIX? Stain to Venal? Shocked Better yet, to new, entirely hidden systems. Perhaps with their own network of jumpgates left over...some of the Old Gates left working connecting an unknown, unmarked constellation? Could be a major find.
Finally, far off (again, inaccessible by scanner...many au from nearest celestial body) bases. Stations. Accessible ones.

There isn't really anything else, and as previously mentioned, it'd be annoying to comb and recomb the same systems over...and over...and over for a spawned item. I'm more enthusiastic about permanent features...stations. Jumpgates, etc.

Skillz
Amarr
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:43:00 - [15]
 


Zarthan, knock it off. They'll whine regardless of what. If you kill them in 0.0 or in 0.4, it's always the same story.


Skillz
Amarr
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:45:00 - [16]
 


And CCP actually listens to petition whining making them uber carebears and have to face all sorts of problems when the teletubbies don't know what to do when the Castor patch offers too many oppertunities.


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:47:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 01/01/2004 05:30:23
Drop serial high sec pilots from the equation Jash. They don't count, never will.
Try and concentrate your thoughts on the people motivated enough to go out into 0.0. People who spinelessly mine in high sec are just that-spineless. All their day consists of is getting X scordite, pyro and omber each day and selling it so they can buy the next BP.
Casual, lazy, incompetent and/or carebear games never pioneered anything. Start looking at the people who were already in 0.0...the bistot miners. The pirates. The alliances. They were out there. Why?
Small bonuses. You got bistot and crokite in 0.0. That alone warranted the move to 0.0 space for hundreds, if not thousands of people. Why? It gives them an edge over the competition. It makes other things run faster, smoother, easier (production). The "challenging NPCs" patch and the sudden disappearance of anything above kernite from many if not most 0.0 belts has killed much the interest in 0.0 sec space.

Let's take your example of AO tower battles. Towers in AO give you...benefits of some sort I believe? Worth fighting over. It draws attention, competition, although possibly not vital.
Think of bistot as the towers.

Edit: OMG. I'm agreeing with Jade Shocked.


Ore isn't much of an incentive, Drethen. It's way too easy to do without mining it yourself. While the towers in AO give direct benefits as an incentive (boost to skills and xp), they're completely optional. And mostly appeal to the hardcore/egoists.

Non-Empire and Empire space can't exist as separate entities in a healthy manner. Not healthy for the game at least. I don't mine but can manufacture with little effort. If I'm selling for profit, I can easily pass the costs of not having to aquire anything from 0.0 myself onto those that purchase the products I manufacture.

Maybe the best way to explain it is to look at Techell. They were allegedly selling 40 battleships per day. Do you think they mined the materials for 40 battleships per day themselves? How much time do you think they spent going out to 0.0 to aquire the necessary meg/zyd themselves?

Trying to force the battlegrounds out into 0.0 space is a mistake. Empire and Non-Empire will remain almost completely separate entities as large numbers will refuse to go there. Attempting to force the issue and make 0.0 required at some level to continue will set the point where most people will quit the game. Leaving it optional leaves us where we currently are.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:49:00 - [18]
 


The important difference is Skillz, that if people whine about being killed in 0.0. most sensible people tell them to shut up and stop whining.

And Zarthan is making a lot of sense.

There's no mileage in giving up just because other people are talking tripe.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:50:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Empire space and its infrastructure is EVEs equivalent of cities in other MMORPGs. People have had a natural draw to commerce centers etc since the begining of our species. Other games have created 'pull' to the far reaches by placing dungeons and the like out there. These have the effect of creating a reason to brave the dangers. The main reason Ive seen listed for going to 0.0 in EVE is a few rocks. LOL. Oh yeah, we having fun now :)


The rocks draw miners, who draw protection against the NPCs. The miners draw pirates, who in turn draw self righteous *smiles* who don't like their way of operating. The anti pirates and miners draw traders, who, because space is semi colonised, see some chance of getting through to the stations out there. The pirates and antipirates draw producers, because they're suffering losses. The producers will want somewhere to operate freely and the traders and miners a safer, more accessible haven; hence the player owned stations. (I'd think of stations in Eve more along the lines of ports IRL...you don't have many of them popping up, maybe 1 or 2 per alliance to start, so they can draw the minerals faster and easier and safer, etc, so the traders and producers had somewhere to do their stuff under the fleet protection, etc...) The player owned stations and the alliances of miners, traders and their defenders attracts more people who see a safer environment, which in turn allows for expansion.
I've gone on enough I think. Those "few rocks" made the galaxy tick.


Yeah, that's why people are saying that 0.0 is dead atm. The immense draw of mining rocks.

The highest level playfields in EQ, AC, AO and ect would never be visited if it was possible to reach the highest levels without visiting them. But those games have an advantage over Eve in that area:

They simply turn off the xp unless you go there

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:51:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Jim Raynor on 01/01/2004 05:52:24
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Problem 1: Pirates not being able to use 0.0 space to pirate because quite frankly there are very few people in 0.0 space. Also highway systems and empire space being strip mined to the point that n00bs can’t even get themselves off the ground without moving to a .4 where their n00b ship can’t even cut it.


Yeah, I was in Kisogo the other day, and like, I warped to one of the asteroid fields and it was all empty, how does a new player supposed to start out? The newbie systems should never run low on minerals, and should only spawn veldspar or maybe some scordite.

The only real incentive to go to 0.0 space is megacyte.. really, that's all that matters.. I don't think altering the market will help, the game is ruled by how much megacyte you can mine.. since it now takes a small armada to mine megacyte, the prices have gone up and traffic has gone way way down.

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Problem 2: Storyline or the slowness of it and or lack their of for some

Proposed solution: Give the players a higher ability to move the storyline along. What I mean by this is allow players for instance to submit a story to the CCP and get approval to get the “tools” necessary from CCP to carry it out. Granted they couldn’t be all out wars between empires, but they at least could offer players something of interest to keep them in with the game for the role players. Furthermore instead of just making stories for the news about events that “happened” get a group of volunteers together who would actually carry out the story. An example would be have someone fly around as doriam and visit the planets, yes that’d be boring but it’d add that little bit to the stories that is missing.


I don't think the players will ever "move the storyline" MMO games just don't work like that. What would be NICE is if the different empires had more character to them. Right now empire space is just that, empire space. There's really no difference between Amarr space and Mimnatar space, the graphics of stations and jumpgates change and not much else.

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Problem 3: Bounty hunter just flat out don’t have the tools to be bounty hunters, and to some extent neither do pirates.

Proposed solution: We need things like warp trail locators or advanced ship scanners allowing people to find those hiding in dead space. Furthermore the warp inhibitors could also aid bounty hunters, and yes pirates in order to help close a system down so that their prey could not escape. Also to prevent the local n00b from blasting the tools out of the equation I’d suggest making these things at lest able to withstand a fair amount of beating, with something like 3k of hit points so only someone who truly needed them gone could destroy them.

Also on a more elaborated note on ship warp trail locators or something of the like. When you warp to the other ship it should be at a distance of your choosing exactly the way the gates are setup. This would allow the different ship classes to play to their strengths. Really a simpler solution would be to add a warp to feature for objects in the ship scanner.


Yes, a person with a good amount of bookmarks is basically unkillable, if he's fast enough, it's lame. I made a post about this a long time ago about how there NEEDS to be a way to scan for people in dead space and warp to them. It's insanely hard to track people down that have a dead space bookmark, they will simply sit there until you get bored, and there is nothing you can do.

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Problem 4: NPC spawns wack jack difficulties

Proposed solution: for the love of god 15 cruisers should NOT be guarding jaspet. The number of npc’s and difficulty should directly reflect the ore in the area. Yes arknor should be guarded by bs npc’s but as said before 15 cruisers shouldn’t be on top of jaspet. Also some systems and regions still could use a slight boost in the types of ores they have. In gallentee space to fine good rocks you have to go all the way into the outer ring and likewise for Caldari space where you must head far into tribute.


It's pretty messed up, yeah. Don't forget NPC missle spam. They should have launchers that are more like players.. and launch missles 1 every 15 seconds, not 1 every 2.

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Problem 5: My poor poor indy is ganked far to easily

Proposed solution: here I reluctantly must agree indys for the most part are very easy prey. However the solution is not making them faster no no no, if anything they should be slower. However, they should have at least the shield outputs of cruisers if not slightly more. They should be very slow heavily armored and shielded ships that are easy to stop but not destroy.


They should have more defenses, but they should remain slow and vulnerable.

Skillz
Amarr
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:53:00 - [21]
 


Why not get a 60000 seconds invunerability timer. That just kick the **** out of the last life of the mud.


Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:57:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
Ore isn't much of an incentive, Drethen. It's way too easy to do without mining it yourself. While the towers in AO give direct benefits as an incentive (boost to skills and xp), they're completely optional. And mostly appeal to the hardcore/egoists.


.
Bistot gives a direct boost to cash.
It's completely optional.

Worked pre-Castor. 'Nuff said.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.01.01 05:59:00 - [23]
 

Jash you are not seeing the argument here.

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Trying to force the battlegrounds out into 0.0 space is a mistake.


If its a mistake it was intended in the game system. There are vast swathes of 0.0 where you can do whatever you want without sec loss or interference. It was obviously intended by CCP that 0.0 would be the wild frontier where death and megaprofit rubbed shoulders.

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Empire and Non-Empire will remain almost completely separate entities as large numbers will refuse to go there.


I doubt that. Give an incentive and people will tool up, form gangs, and give it a go. At the moment there is no incentive.

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Attempting to force the issue and make 0.0 required at some level to continue will set the point where most people will quit the game.


Nobody is saying that 0.0 should be required. They are suggesting that it has significant incentives to make it work people taking the risk of random pirates to exploit them.

And remember this is just on the piracy angle.

Corp wars will still happen in Empire.

Perhaps in the future plot driven national wars will happen in empire.

Limited piracy will happen on the verges of empire.

But 0.0 needs a draw to get pioneers going out there again.

I really can't see how you can argue against that.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:02:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Ore isn't much of an incentive, Drethen. It's way too easy to do without mining it yourself. While the towers in AO give direct benefits as an incentive (boost to skills and xp), they're completely optional. And mostly appeal to the hardcore/egoists.


.
Bistot gives a direct boost to cash.
It's completely optional.

Worked pre-Castor. 'Nuff said.


Pre-Castor, people mined Scordite and recycled Huge Secure Containers for megacyte despite the less difficulty/danger. 'Nuff said. Twisted Evil

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:04:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 01/01/2004 06:05:59
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ore isn't much of an incentive, Drethen. It's way too easy to do without mining it yourself. While the towers in AO give direct benefits as an incentive (boost to skills and xp), they're completely optional. And mostly appeal to the hardcore/egoists.


.
Bistot gives a direct boost to cash.
It's completely optional.

Worked pre-Castor. 'Nuff said.


Pre-Castor, people mined Scordite and recycled Huge Secure Containers for megacyte despite the less difficulty/danger. 'Nuff said. Twisted Evil


I thought I told you to drop high sec spineless pilots from the equation?

There were a LOT of people in 0.0 space, admit that much. The driving reason? Those few rocks.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:09:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 01/01/2004 06:05:59
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ore isn't much of an incentive, Drethen. It's way too easy to do without mining it yourself. While the towers in AO give direct benefits as an incentive (boost to skills and xp), they're completely optional. And mostly appeal to the hardcore/egoists.


.
Bistot gives a direct boost to cash.
It's completely optional.

Worked pre-Castor. 'Nuff said.


Pre-Castor, people mined Scordite and recycled Huge Secure Containers for megacyte despite the less difficulty/danger. 'Nuff said. Twisted Evil


I thought I told you to drop high sec spineless pilots from the equation?

There were a LOT of people in 0.0 space, admit that much. The driving reason? Those few rocks.


1) You can't give me orders Twisted Evil

2) Where'd they go Post-Castor, which is the only thing that matters?

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:12:00 - [27]
 

This is painful.

Sara Kerrigan
Caldari
PAK
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:17:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Sara Kerrigan on 01/01/2004 06:21:18
Problem 1: I agree with your suggestions. Trade between the outer regions and empire space definitely needs to increase. It makes sense that completed products/trade goods be in higher demand/price in 0.0, and likewise for high end minerals to be in higher demand/price in empire space. Empire and 0.0 should be working together with an active flow. The markets is where this needs to happen.

Problem 2: IMO players don't need the tools to stage events. What we need is more active participation and aid by the polaris events team and the GMs, and for them to be able to help player-run events on the technical side.

Problem 3: Again I agree, bounty hunters and pirates need more tools for tracking, following, and capturing.

Problem 4: Already known and being fixed I think.

Problem 5: Definitely. I always thought that indys should be slow, yet strong. There's no reason for valueables to be hauled around in a ship with paper-thin walls. I currently don't understand the high slots on indys, or the large number of med slots on some.

Problem 6: I hate when I don't get loot because the can explodes in the splash :| I would suggest a 10 second invulnerability timer on the drop can as opposed to HP increase though. I don't mind the pod being destroyed however =)

Problem 7: I haven't had much problem with anti-missile defense myself... defenders and smartbombs have worked fine for me.


I would also like to add, I'm very much in favor for what Drethen Nerevitas suggested (Surrender flag) but not just on indys, for any ship. Like he said, it would disable all modules, give them a little icon, etc. They would need to be VERY careful about where they place it on the UI though. I'd very much like to be camping a gate, have a guy come into the system and realize we're here, decide to cooperate and tell us he'll warp to the gate and disable all systems.

Lorandello
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:17:00 - [29]
 

How about some kind of Tracking bug you can shoot at a target ship for the bounty hunters?, stealthy so target does not realise he has been bugged. All things needing a defence make a scanner that can detect them but the bugs are undetectible unless the target runs a scan for them.
I can also think of a few uses for the pirates, selecting a possible target and then jumping them in the middle of a system, Will not need to get him the same day either. target selected ships coming out of a station, or going thru a gate and track em down 2,3 or more days later. Much more fun hunting down prey that waiting for pery to stumble by, dont you think?

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2004.01.01 06:22:00 - [30]
 

I've said this a while now, but, the way the map in eve is drawn, is totally ******ed. I mean, the whole highway system, ruins the game, it makes travel faster yes, but it makes no sense.

There is no diversity in empire space, at all. It's all the same.. to get from New Caldari to Luminaire is a simple 2 jumps away.

0.0 space should seperate the empires.. different regions should have different markets. Going from Caldari space to Gallante space shouldn't be as simple as 2 little jumps.


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