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Big Socks
Amarr
Intersolar Research
Posted - 2007.10.29 15:59:00 - [121]
 

Ok cool thanks, and BTW Ittey i think this is possibly the best guide i have read in a long time, with a little help from friends and a big help from your guide i have done many inventions and loving it :) cheers for the accurate and easy guide mate.

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2007.10.30 19:02:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Kdah
Ok, I think I know what the problem is. The formula should read:

Runs = max(1;Round.Down(ActualRunsInputBPC/MaxRunsInputBPC*MaxRunsOutputBPC) + DecryptorBonusRuns)

That makes sure that you always end up with at least one run, but if you use a decryptor with bonus runs and a low-run BPC, you can end up with only the bonus runs on the resulting BPC.

Your example should then read:

Runs = max(1;Round.Down(1000/1000*10) + 4)



I guess I am to blame for that error. And you are of course right. Good catch!


It's been a long time in the making, but i've just posted an updated version of the runs formula here.

Mark Amarr
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.07 17:51:00 - [123]
 

I'm thinking of trying invention - can you just clarify a point for me?

Assuming you have, say, 10 max run BPCs and a data interface, how do you then go about starting the jobs when it comes to the base items and decryptors? can they be used simultaneously?
From what (little) I understand from the guide there are 3 possibilities:

1) You have to have 1 bpc, the data interface, 1 base item and 1 decryptor to go in, start job, wait for it to finish, then rinse and repeat 9 more times.

2) You can start up 10 "goes" by putting all BPCs in along with the data interface, a base item and a decryptor.

3) The data interface does not disappear from hangar when it is used for an invention job, so you can start concurrent invention jobs with 1 bpc, 1 base item, 1 decryptor going into each separate invention run.

or is it something else entirely?!

Thanks.


Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2007.11.08 21:22:00 - [124]
 

Hi

I've just completed 4 invention jobs on sisi for the new Golem TII Battleship.

3 succeeded and 1 failed

I used Installation Guide with a 1 run Raven BPC and no metea item
Resulting Golem BPC's were all ME -4 PE +1 3 runs each

this result does not match up with the modifiers that the installation guide decryptor should give which should have resulted in ME -7 PE -1 and +4 runs.

Can anyone explain these results? or is the information regardin the decryptors incorrect?

Just curious, if i get similar results on tranquility i will be a very happy bunnyLaughing

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.10 12:38:00 - [125]
 

Decryptors are being "balanced" right now.
No idea what's happening with invention chance, but ME/PE levels from decryptors seem to have been heavily boosted across the boards (only "pluses", no more minuses), but bonus runs have been decreased.

Of course, we're still not seing the final numbers yet I suppose, we'd have to wait for the actual release first.
I just hope they do get out the new data exports ASAP, so we can see what exact changes they will have made by then.

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.11.12 20:13:00 - [126]
 

I was just going to ask more or less the same question as Amateratsu. I did eight invention jobs on sisi for the Minmatar BSes (four each) and ended up with one Black Ops and two Marauders prints (37.5%). I used Assembly Instructions and 1 run BPCs on all of them and the resulting prints were ME -4, PE +1, 3 runs (I expected ME -7, PE -2, 4 runs).

While I realize these two data points aren't sufficient to be considered statistically significant, I wonder if they may have increased the success chance significantly?

Oh, and Ittey, I just noticed a minor error (typo) in your guide:

ME Wastage Constant 
0 0 1.1 <-- wastage should be 0.1; constant is correct
-1 0.2 1.2
-2 0.3 1.3
-3 0.4 1.4
-4 0.5 1.5
-5 0.6 1.6
-6 0.7 1.7
-7 0.8 1.8
-8 0.9 1.9


Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.11.12 20:21:00 - [127]
 

I see nothing in the guide mentioning it, but I've heard a theory - mostly from those having good successes doing invention at POS - that standing with the corp owning the facility affects invention successes. Has anyone any experiences which support or contradict this, or is it just one of those myths that arise from a combination of lucky and unlucky streaks at the right times?

Gner Dechast
Flashman Services
Posted - 2007.11.13 12:54:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Gner Dechast on 13/11/2007 13:26:18
Edited by: Gner Dechast on 13/11/2007 13:25:53
Nice guide Ittey.

EDIT: Aaargh! Folly of my ways was found Shocked nvm, POS invention run just fine, for non-dumbasses unlike me.

chinook
Posted - 2007.11.15 21:55:00 - [129]
 

I cant seem to invent from my corp hanger. I can research bpo from it fine but need to place items in lab at pos to invent. only have scientific networking at 1 but should be fine as I can remote research ok. ?????

Ittey
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
Posted - 2007.11.16 05:10:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Becq Starforged
Oh, and Ittey, I just noticed a minor error (typo) in your guide:

Nice catch, fixed.

Oh and try not to complain about my guide not matching sisi people, not really my fault that CCP keeps changing stuff. Wink
I will update it as soon as the new changes are made, don't have enough time to keep every little upcoming change in the guide.

George Peppard
Gallente
THE A TEAM
Posted - 2007.11.22 15:03:00 - [131]
 

So if I have understood these calcs correctly, unless you are using a decryptor, you can only successfully invent a 1 run BPC of any given ship, irrespective of how many runs the initial Tech I BPC has.

Use of run boosting decryptors also seems to make most sense on ships in terms of cost v. return.

Lilith Faux
Posted - 2007.12.01 03:24:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Lilith Faux on 01/12/2007 09:52:48
nevermind

jsman99
The Knights Templar
Posted - 2007.12.03 11:32:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: jsman99 on 03/12/2007 11:51:05
Well, I read your tutorial and started some invention. My first was lucky and finished with succes.
But I put 300 run BPC T1 into invention, and get only 1 run copy BPC (T2).

I read your example: The final number of runs formula is a doozy compared to the others, so I will explain.
Runs = max( 1; Round.Down( ( ( ActualRunsInputBPC / MaxRunsInputBPC ) * MaxRunsOutputBPC ) + DecryptorBonusRuns))


This was rig then:
ActualRunsInputBPC = 300 (this was my bpc and I made them 300 runs)
MaxRunsInputBC = 1000 (rig)
MaxRunsOutputBPC = 10
I wasn't using any decryptor
then
runs = max (1, round.down(((300/1000)*10)+no.bonus)
runs = max (1, 3)
runs = 3

Why I got 1 run BPC? Or where I make mistake?

Bambi
Existentialist Collective
Posted - 2007.12.06 12:11:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Amateratsu
Hi

I've just completed 4 invention jobs on sisi for the new Golem TII Battleship.

Just curious, if i get similar results on tranquility i will be a very happy bunnyLaughing


Sisi seems to give FAR better chances of success with invention than TQ.

Jann DeVIlle
Posted - 2007.12.07 21:12:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: George Peppard
So if I have understood these calcs correctly, unless you are using a decryptor, you can only successfully invent a 1 run BPC of any given ship, irrespective of how many runs the initial Tech I BPC has.

That's how I read it as well. Also, I just invented my first Tech 2 Frigate from a max. run BPC (without decryptor), the result was a 1 run Tech 2 BPC. So the experiment confirms our understanding of Ittey's guide.

Baniya Bhai
Amarr
Jobseekers Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.08 04:44:00 - [136]
 

I did the new Devoter ship invention using Circular Logic as the decryptor. What I got after several tries is a 1 run BPC?
I thought I would get a 9 run BPC at least.
Anybody know more about this?

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.12.10 10:31:00 - [137]
 

You should have gotten a 9-run BPC. My guess is that you accidentally left the decryptor field blank on that job.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.12.10 22:15:00 - [138]
 

Thanks.

Since it's a Beginners' guide, you might want to remove the reference to the now defunct T2 BPO lottery from the "Skills" page.


RIVAL BLOOD
Caldari
FW Advanced Tech
Posted - 2007.12.14 01:10:00 - [139]
 

For items are they module only or ship based as well. Ive heard conflicting reports on ship meta items simply designed to reduce the negative % chance reduction and Ive had people say it doesnt matter at all.

Does it or does it not matter to use a ship in the invention rolls?

Ittey
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
Posted - 2007.12.16 04:24:00 - [140]
 

Using base items on ship jobs does increase the odds, but not enough to make it cost effective currently.

Jayden Lancia'Yu
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.20 16:09:00 - [141]
 

whats the success rate with ships?

Jann DeVIlle
Posted - 2007.12.21 21:22:00 - [142]
 

A few datapoints for frigate invention:

Post Trinity, I've run a little test series on Tranquility about the effect of max run BPCs vs. one run BPCs in ship invention. All relevant invention skills were at 4.

First try:
Manticores invented from Kestrel max run BPCs.
10 attempts, 8 of 10 with User Manual (forgot the decryptor for the other 2).
6 out of 10 attempts were successful.

Second try:
Manticores invented from Kestrel BPCs with only 1 run.
10 attempts, 9 of 10 with User Manual (forgot the decryptor in one case).
0 out of 10 attempts were successful.

Now this looks like the run count on the T1 BPC makes a difference for the chance of ship invention, which conflicts with reports from pre-Trinity. Did anyone else test for the influence of T1 BPC run count on ship invention? If yes, what were the results?

thegallenteamarrguy
Posted - 2007.12.23 01:22:00 - [143]
 

thank yyou

atoninothemighty
Rogue-Element
Posted - 2007.12.23 01:26:00 - [144]
 

thank yyou for the guide

Ishxara
Posted - 2007.12.23 15:09:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Ishxara on 23/12/2007 15:11:42
Originally by: Jann DeVIlle

Now this looks like the run count on the T1 BPC makes a difference for the chance of ship invention, which conflicts with reports from pre-Trinity. Did anyone else test for the influence of T1 BPC run count on ship invention? If yes, what were the results?


Dunno about ships but with rig BPC it gives the same amount of runs with 1000 run bpc and with 1 run bpc.

first try
10 * 1000(max) run rig bpc, no decr
result : 5 * 1(one) run -4me/pe

second try
10* 1 run same rig bpc, no decr
result : 4 * 1(one) run -4me/pe

What is the point to waste time on 1000 runs BPC ?

MORRS
Posted - 2007.12.24 06:11:00 - [146]
 

Can someone post what is different with the decyphers since the last patch? The decyphers them selves have no information in the description or attributes as to what they do and what percentages

Gort
Minmatar
Federation of Freedom Fighters
En Garde
Posted - 2007.12.28 23:20:00 - [147]
 

Invention is an enigma, wrapped in a cipher.

Thanks so much for the guide, however. It's a good one.

Gort

Dominique Vasilkovsky
Gallente
BFG Tech
Posted - 2008.01.02 10:02:00 - [148]
 

I finally had a look at this guide and noticed you got the pre Trinity stats listed for the decryptors on this page.


TubeChild TK421
Posted - 2008.01.04 00:44:00 - [149]
 

Link is dead. Long live the link.

Mamede
Posted - 2008.01.07 10:13:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Mamede on 07/01/2008 11:44:35
So....using t1 ships as base items affect the chance results?


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