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Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.09 08:14:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 09/04/2007 08:13:18
First, let me get the obligatory things out of the way (to avoid the obvious non-constructive posts that appear in any such thread).

*No, I have not been scammed by anybody. Not recently, not ever
*No, I have nothing against scams per se. I do believe that 'scammer' is as legitimate a profession as 'corp thief', 'miner', 'trader', or 'red blinkey pirate'
*Yes, I dislike stupid people as much as anybody here. No, they do not deserve to keep their ISK or their nice items

Now, to the point.

I am becoming extremely, extremely, extremely annoyed by the latest breed of the click-n-scam variety of scams.
Over the last week I have been convoed at least 3 times by one Gurbeta and his alt Kuckaa. Every time this idiot tried to scam me out of the faction loot I have selling on public contracts. He was trying to pull the latest "flavor of the month" want-to-buy scam on me. All of the three scamming attempts were crude, clumsy, devoid of any creativity, and, frankly, just plain insulting. Of course, he did not succeed in scamming me. Quite the opposite has happened - I used my trading alt to buy out all the items that he has amassed for only a fraction of their real value, and resold them all for about a billion in profit. He knew almost nothing of his items' real worth.

The sheer amount of loot this imbecile has been able to obtain using his extremely repetitive scam was staggering. He was bragging a lot about it too.

At that point it struck me that as much as I would like to hit this guy where it hurts, I am powerless. I cannot wardec Kuckaa's noob corp. It will be a waste of money to wardec the other alt's one-man corp. If any of them will ever undock from Jita 4-4 (which is doubtful), I will not hurt the puppetmaster a sigle bit if I kill and pod any of his alts. I cannot even hurt this guy's business by warning the potential "clients", because we all know "scammer lists" do not work.
In the next patch CCP might fix this particular way to click-n-scam, just like they did with corp auctions, freeforms, and 1000000x Zydrine. But other similar ready-made intelligance-insulting scams will proliferate.

There needs to be a real solution to it.

I think that there needs to be a way to look up other character's financial records (transaction journal and private contract record). It can be done in the same way as locator agents work (you should be able to "bribe" the tax agent). It can be done by intoroducing a new skill (tax record hacking anyone?). There might be other possibilities, but this information should be ultimately obtainable.

If this is done, it will no longer will be easy to simply pass isk and items from a scamming alt to your main in complete safety. It will create plenty of interesting possibilities for doing scams and evading detection (money-laundering corporations anyone?). And main characters of imbeciles like Kuckaa will ultimately become gankable.

To recap, I don't want to eliminate scams from game. In fact, I support scamming as a viable profession with all my heart. However, I want to have some recourse against dumb and unsubtle click-n-scammers like Kuckaa. And I want to introduce at least some element of risk into this profession.

Good idea? Bad idea? Does anyone have any other ideas?
I will formally post this proposal into the proper section of the forum if there will be some support here...

Carbon Argon
Minmatar
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SUBLIME CREATIONS ALLIANCE
Posted - 2007.04.09 08:21:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

I support scamming as a viable profession with all my heart.


Oxymoron of the year.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.09 11:53:00 - [3]
 


I have never in my entire Eve life been scammed. Not once.

Why?

Because I use the tools in Eve that are there to their full effect, and always double check a transaction before I click the button.

Although I don't condone it, there is no excuse for being scammed. People are given the tools to evade being scammed to hell and back, they just need to use them.

It's simply a matter of common sense and basic checks to make sure the deal is legit.


Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.04.09 12:35:00 - [4]
 

Thanks for being redundant , Verone Razz the OP was only annoyed that people tried to scam him endlessly.

Alt scamming is just cheap , I support this suggestion. Anything to make main/alt interactions traceable.

That said , many outlaws use their hauler alt to scam , and would probably tell you the name of their main in hope of getting a bounty Razz

Shiner BockBeer
Go Go Gadget ForumPostingAlt
Posted - 2007.04.09 13:23:00 - [5]
 

Subject: Complaints-about-scam-of-the-month-threads, a fix is needed.

Seriously, all you're doing is stating the obvious. If you really want to help this, all you have to do is post describing the scam. Provided of course that it hasn't been described already.

And since you haven't been scammed, your entire post is non-constructive. All you have to do is block anyone who tries it on you and you will have (through tools available to you) removed the irritant.


Nymos
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.04.09 14:16:00 - [6]
 

most scams are so silly it makes me wonder how people can fall for it especially considering the relatively high isk value of most scams. my favorite was one 3 year old character shuttling through syndicate and announcing he got cap ship blueprints for sale and of course also nyx bpcs. i ask him for a naglfar bpc, i should send 50m to him and he'll phone up his friend (50m lol? did i say i need it pronto, why phone?). i just said lol no, escrow or get lost. "phone up his friend"... "my corp's banker is afk" (in an obvious alt corp)... oh gimme a break.

i used to find scams a viable part of eve and an addition to the harsh background of eve, but looking at how alts make billions off idiots and noobs is just silly. there's no efforts unlike exploiting the market by trading for example which is equally "simple", but still takes a brain and time.

you don't hurt your rep as well with alts. if people had balls and did it with their mains then all power to them. there's also plenty of kids that just don't know better and believe what you tell them. can't tell them "zomg lolz u g0t d4rw1n1z0r3d" because he's 12 years old.

Sun Win
Mutually Assured Distraction
Posted - 2007.04.09 16:16:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Sun Win on 09/04/2007 16:13:31
Originally by: Shiner BockBeer
Seriously, all you're doing is stating the obvious. If you really want to help this, all you have to do is post describing the scam. Provided of course that it hasn't been described already.


You are selling a nice bit of faction loot that one of your victims dropped. Someone convos you and says "yes I'd love to buy it" and drops a WTB link into the chat.

Either:
1) The correct price is there but it's set so that YOU pay them the price as well as giving them the module.
or
2) There are 3 0's missing from the price and they hope that your eyes will gloss over this fact and sell it for 550,000.00 instead of 550,000,000.00

Thread Winner
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.04.09 16:18:00 - [8]
 

Send me 10 mill and I'll give you a series of tapes for you to listen to while you sleep to empower you to never succumb to scams again.

Mighty Dread
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.04.09 17:24:00 - [9]
 

Oooh I feel a thread lock coming.

Yeah this person tried the same thing with me. What annoyed me the most that the person kept trying. I don't need spam scams in my mailbox.

Really scamming players is lame, I don't see it adding more "flavor" to EVE any more than macro miners do. But CCP likes it so it's gonna happen, I wonder if someone has written a "How to protect yourself from common scams" guide for new players?

Neo Rainhart
Guerilla Republik
Excuses.
Posted - 2007.04.09 17:27:00 - [10]
 

wow...nice...most amusing scam-whining post of the year Laughing..

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.09 20:05:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Stakhanov
Thanks for being redundant , Verone Razz the OP was only annoyed that people tried to scam him endlessly.

Alt scamming is just cheap , I support this suggestion. Anything to make main/alt interactions traceable.

That said , many outlaws use their hauler alt to scam , and would probably tell you the name of their main in hope of getting a bounty Razz


WTS : Reading Comprehension Skillbook.

He is annoyed that people are trying to scam him.

I said that while I don't condone it, scamming is perfectly legitimate and not considered an exploit.

Therefore his whining means nothing and will get him nowhere all it takes is common sense and using the tools given in game to avoid being ripped off.

If you're going to patronise me, at least do it with a valid argument.


Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.04.09 21:02:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Stakhanov
Thanks for being redundant , Verone Razz the OP was only annoyed that people tried to scam him endlessly.

Alt scamming is just cheap , I support this suggestion. Anything to make main/alt interactions traceable.

That said , many outlaws use their hauler alt to scam , and would probably tell you the name of their main in hope of getting a bounty Razz


WTS : Reading Comprehension Skillbook.

He is annoyed that people are trying to scam him.

I said that while I don't condone it, scamming is perfectly legitimate and not considered an exploit.

Therefore his whining means nothing and will get him nowhere all it takes is common sense and using the tools given in game to avoid being ripped off.

If you're going to patronise me, at least do it with a valid argument.




I can't believe you mock my reading comprehension while you still didn't get the OP's point Neutral

The OP didn't complain about being scammed. Actually , he didn't even complain that people tried to scam him. He complained that he had to deal with a barrage of scamming attempts that only work on braindead people , whenever he tries to sell faction loot. He complained about scamming alts that will constantly spam the contract system and channels in the hope that some idiots will fall for it - and they do , so there's no good reason for them to stop. This activity has no consequences whatsoever - the alt never undocks , the main is never mentionned. Everybody around has to cope with this nuisance with no way to fight back.

This is harassment much like freighter bumping , you can't say that it's legitimate just because it's profitable - people successfully ransom freighters in highsec that way , but the poor freighter pilots had no good way to fight back , since wardecs take a day to initiate and the only thing they could do was bring suiciders to kill the blocking rookie ships , lowering their friends' sec status in the process.

Alt scamming is a risk free , high reward occupation. This is just wrong , players should have the option to track down the puppetmaster if they're willing to invest resources on it. Right now , you can't find out what character is receiving money from scamming alts. You can't.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.09 22:57:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 09/04/2007 22:54:17
Originally by: Stakhanov

I can't believe you mock my reading comprehension while you still didn't get the OP's point Neutral
....

Alt scamming is a risk free , high reward occupation. This is just wrong , players should have the option to track down the puppetmaster if they're willing to invest resources on it. Right now , you can't find out what character is receiving money from scamming alts. You can't.


Precisely!

And let me repeat it again... I have absolutely nothing against scams themselves. Heck, I am usually the first to jump at any scam-whining post, and tell the whining victim to shut up, adapt, and read the entire contract before accepting.

What I do want, however, is scamming in style. I want a way to weed out the likes of Kuckaa.

If alts were traceable, people would still scam - it will not stop everyone.

However, this would have given me the oppotunity and pleasure to find out who Kuckaa's main is. Then I would have so podded the defective just for trying to insult my intelligence. Would have been fun times!

As it stands now, people pull these scams off with no risk whatsoever.

Furthermore, the click-n-scam type of scamming (which relies primarily on the flaws in user interface, or on the victim being distracted) has little, or no relation to the role-palying aspect of EVE. I know that not everyone is a role-player. I do not engage in any hardcore RP myself, but even from my standpoint this kind of wholesale scamming seriously breaks the immersion, and does not improve my gaming experience a single bit...

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.04.09 23:20:00 - [14]
 

this guy convos you 3 times trying to scam you out of your stuff and you haven't blocked him after second?

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.10 00:04:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: DubanFP
this guy convos you 3 times trying to scam you out of your stuff and you haven't blocked him after second?


Give this man a hand! He gets my point!

Blessed be common sense!

Laughing


Khul Drukath
Maelstrom Crew
Posted - 2007.04.10 01:24:00 - [16]
 

Then the guy just makes a new alt and carries on. It's still risk free to the puppet master.

FFS when did C&P become so crap that everyone just wanted to get a quick dig into any potential "whiner". I don't think the OP is whining at all - in fact I think he brings up a very legitimate point.


I've never been scammed - to be honest I've never sold or bought anything worth scamming over really. However one thing that makes Eve a great game to me is accountability. If someone ****es you off then you can go shoot them up. Alts get over this somewhat, but have a natural downside to either needing a new account, or taking SPs from your main, in order to be good at something (even hauling requires some skills).

Scamming alts have no downside. There is no risk. This is out of balance to the rest of the game.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.10 02:50:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: DubanFP
this guy convos you 3 times trying to scam you out of your stuff and you haven't blocked him after second?


Not my point.

Yes, sure, I can block any idiot who is trying to scam me.

But I want to have a choice to go and pod the defective instead. Possibly multiple times too. I think it is a very legitimate wish.

Not that it is likely anything is going to happen... Some people here don't even understand what I am talking about, even though I have worded my proposal very carefully. And typically it takes a lot of momentum to make CCP change any aspect of the game.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.10 02:54:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Khul Drukath
Then the guy just makes a new alt and carries on. It's still risk free to the puppet master.
...

Scamming alts have no downside. There is no risk. This is out of balance to the rest of the game.


Yep, it is the no-risk aspect that bothers me.

If there WERE risk involved, I would have actually considered becoming a career scammer myself. As it is now, scamming has become a push-button occupation of Ibis-flying noob corp alts. Very sad.

Silver Sheath
Green Gecko Inc.
Brotherhood Of Steel
Posted - 2007.04.10 02:58:00 - [19]
 

There is always the downside that even fewer people will believe the scam if it's a 3 day old, noob corp alt character, supposedly selling/trading/buying/whatever FACTION or T2 loot. So, in a way, every angle has a disadvantage.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.04.10 13:42:00 - [20]
 

Just wait for the "Walk in Stations" and pay him a visit while he sleeps... *KAPOW!!!!* Sleep with the Jelly-Fishes Twisted Evil

Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Fat Kids Cause Lag
Posted - 2007.04.10 14:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 09/04/2007 08:13:18

Of course, he did not succeed in scamming me. Quite the opposite has happened - I used my trading alt to buy out all the items that he has amassed for only a fraction of their real value, and resold them all for about a billion in profit. He knew almost nothing of his items' real worth.


The sheer amount of loot this imbecile has been able to obtain using his extremely repetitive scam was staggering. He was bragging a lot about it too.


However, I want to have some recourse against dumb and unsubtle click-n-scammers like Kuckaa. And I want to introduce at least some element of risk into this profession.




Your own post admits there is already risk. He tried to scam somebody smarter than himself (which, from what ya have said of him in your post, he must do frequently Laughing) and got burnt. I personally dislike scammmers, but have yet to lose zip to em becuase I look carefully at contracts and avoid free-forms like the plauge. However, I have heard many amusing stories of people outwitting the poor scammers. Most important thing to do when scamming a scammer back for trying to scam you is to do it with style. YARRRR!!

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.10 14:52:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: DarkElf on 10/04/2007 14:50:21
Originally by: Stakhanov
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Stakhanov
Thanks for being redundant , Verone Razz the OP was only annoyed that people tried to scam him endlessly.

Alt scamming is just cheap , I support this suggestion. Anything to make main/alt interactions traceable.

That said , many outlaws use their hauler alt to scam , and would probably tell you the name of their main in hope of getting a bounty Razz


WTS : Reading Comprehension Skillbook.

He is annoyed that people are trying to scam him.

I said that while I don't condone it, scamming is perfectly legitimate and not considered an exploit.

Therefore his whining means nothing and will get him nowhere all it takes is common sense and using the tools given in game to avoid being ripped off.

If you're going to patronise me, at least do it with a valid argument.




I can't believe you mock my reading comprehension while you still didn't get the OP's point Neutral

The OP didn't complain about being scammed. Actually , he didn't even complain that people tried to scam him. He complained that he had to deal with a barrage of scamming attempts that only work on braindead people , whenever he tries to sell faction loot. He complained about scamming alts that will constantly spam the contract system and channels in the hope that some idiots will fall for it - and they do , so there's no good reason for them to stop. This activity has no consequences whatsoever - the alt never undocks , the main is never mentionned. Everybody around has to cope with this nuisance with no way to fight back.

This is harassment much like freighter bumping , you can't say that it's legitimate just because it's profitable - people successfully ransom freighters in highsec that way , but the poor freighter pilots had no good way to fight back , since wardecs take a day to initiate and the only thing they could do was bring suiciders to kill the blocking rookie ships , lowering their friends' sec status in the process.

Alt scamming is a risk free , high reward occupation. This is just wrong , players should have the option to track down the puppetmaster if they're willing to invest resources on it. Right now , you can't find out what character is receiving money from scamming alts. You can't.



as far as i can see the point was completely understood and answered upon.

Just to add that i have bought and sold many items on using several trade tools, bought expensive faction items and sold through trade channels. i have had ppl try to scam me exactly 3 times. all of which were easily avoided and laughed at.

i don't see there is much of a problem tbh. it is not sooo common as to be compared to greifing tactics such as freighter bumping etc as you have.

and i don't think there is a penalty that could be brought in for this. no risk is fine considering it must be boring as hell to do. don't see that it warrants much attention as it's such a minor issue. in my opinion of course.


DE



Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.04.10 15:13:00 - [23]
 

Flavor of the month post about Flavor of the month scams. Hmmmm Cool


 

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