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Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.04.06 07:56:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Erim Solfara on 19/04/2007 22:21:58


This is taken from another thread I posted it in the other day, but I thought, as it got no comments there, it was deserving of it's own thread.

I'd like to see rigs, modules and base ship stats dedicated to capacitor resilience.
The basic premise is that the cap works like the shield system in many ways, but one thing it doesn't have is a resistance rating.
I'd like to introduce a new stat on all ships of how hardy the capacitor is. Think of it as better grade materials used, or slightly different designs etc.

Racial cap hardiness traits would mean that Amarr could actually be the 'cap-war' race as intended by provided them with the highest base resistance to nos/neuts.
Right now the only advantage we have cap wise is the size, not even recharge that much.

The problem is cap boosters completely negate this bonus by allowing tiny capacitored ships to boost for much longer for the use of a med slot.
Amarr can't even follow the trend with boosters because of the lack of medslots (something I like, it's a racial trait after all).

'Capacitor Backflow Diode' would be nice, a lowslot module, hardens the capacitor against nossing.

'This module reduces the potential for leakage of energy through the capacitor walls in the wrong direction, whilst allowing flow through a valving system for the ship's systems'

'Capacitor Electrostatic Sheathing' could harden the capacitor against neuting.

'This module reduces the effect of perturbations in the local energy field surrounding the capacitor, resulting in reduced effectiveness of remote energy neutralizers.'

'Capacitor Housing Plates' could do both, but to a lesser extent?

Thoughts?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.04.06 12:07:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/04/2007 12:07:01
Hm, a bit complicated perhaps. I mean new modules and such.

How about:

- reduce laser energy needs a bit + get rid of the laser energy need bonus on amarr ships
-- alternatively increase laser damage to offset the energy need
-- alternatively reduce energy needs a bit and let only some ships keep the energy need bonus, making them very energy efficient. e.g. command ships.
- reduce Nos energy drain by 50%
- introduce stacking penalty for Nos
- give some Amarr ships a 5% per level Nos bonus. So they can get to 75% of current Nos efficiency

All small changes and easy to do.
The only problem atm is high energy consumption of lasers combined with a lot of Nos being used. I don't even think the EM/Therm damage type is a problem. I mean, hybrids do Kin/Therm and can't change that either.
It's not a big difference, and actually some ships have a higher Kinetic than EM resistance.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.04.06 12:17:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lord WarATron on 06/04/2007 12:14:53
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 06/04/2007 12:13:41
The fix is easy enough

1. Increase Powergrid Usage of all NOS. This will cripple any ship trying to fit them
2. Increase Powergrid usage of amarr ships as appropriate. This also solves the problem with amarr ships fitting beams.
3. Half the Cap usage of all lasers.

Thats it! Amarr can now take off RCU II's/powergrid rigs from their setups. I mean, fitting 3 powergrid rigs is never fun, neither is fitting 2-3 RCU II's. This freeing up of slots will help make Amarr turret ships a lot better.

Angelus Xenotov
Posted - 2007.04.06 17:49:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron

1. Increase Powergrid Usage of all NOS. This will cripple any ship trying to fit them
2. Increase Powergrid usage of amarr ships as appropriate. This also solves the problem with amarr ships fitting beams.



Congratulations, you have just turned the Nos domi into the Nosgeddon or NosPoc, solving nothing.

Sorry kids, increasing PG consumption on Nos is not the answer.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.04.06 17:57:00 - [5]
 

Nice work staying on topic there...

This is a thread about a change to the capacitor to help counter the two seperate problems of nos and the Amarrian ships.

I'd like comments on my idea, rather than just 'no, this is what we should do' posts please?

There are already enough threads dedicated to what you guys have just said, it's not like anything there is even original enough to gain any merit...

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.04.06 19:04:00 - [6]
 

Nice work trying not to be narrow minded.

Well if I read correctly, the topic is: "A proposed nosferatu fix and Amarr tweak in one fell swoop?"

So, let me see what's in there - nosferatu fix and Amarr tweak, right?

Wow, that's exactly what I was writing about! Shocked

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.04.07 11:38:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Angelus Xenotov
Originally by: Lord WarATron

1. Increase Powergrid Usage of all NOS. This will cripple any ship trying to fit them
2. Increase Powergrid usage of amarr ships as appropriate. This also solves the problem with amarr ships fitting beams.



Congratulations, you have just turned the Nos domi into the Nosgeddon or NosPoc, solving nothing.

Sorry kids, increasing PG consumption on Nos is not the answer.


How many NosPoc's and Nos Geddons do you see currently? How many midslots do these ships have? Who's racial EW is nos?

The main problem with nos is that it is combined with Midslot EW and/or with drones. Thats the real issue.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.04.07 16:14:00 - [8]
 

RE: Tarron.

I'm not being narrow minded. I posted a thread in the Features and Ideas discussion forum, with a proposed idea, to be included perhaps as part of the more global changes to Amarr.

I did not simply post 'what do you think should be done to fix nos and amarr!?!?11'.

I made a suggestion of my own, and asked for a discussion on that same suggestion, not for people to simply discount the idea and add their own completely unoriginal done-to-death 'ideas' as if it were the thread already dedicated to that. There are dozens of threads detailing proposed fixes, and a few of them have gotten dev responses.

This is not one of those threads, I'd like feedback on my idea itself.

Angelus Xenotov
Posted - 2007.04.08 00:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Angelus Xenotov

Congratulations, you have just turned the Nos domi into the Nosgeddon or NosPoc, solving nothing.

Sorry kids, increasing PG consumption on Nos is not the answer.


How many NosPoc's and Nos Geddons do you see currently? How many midslots do these ships have? Who's racial EW is nos?

The main problem with nos is that it is combined with Midslot EW and/or with drones. Thats the real issue.


No, an 8 rack of NOS on a geddon would be an issue if they did the changes you suggested, Geddon still has a drone bay and would be a ***** to fight. Your idea just seems to scream 'FAVOUR AMAARR!'

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2007.04.09 11:34:00 - [10]
 

I think the best solution to nos is to make the amount they hit you for vary based on sigradius, like missles and guns but not quite as extreme (i.e. large nos should hit a frig for maybe 40% its max drain or something). The main problem I see with nos isnt their use against other battleships (gg cap boosters), its that theyre a win button agaisnt any class of ship, especially smaller ones.

Aneroi
Amarr
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.09 15:40:00 - [11]
 

I like the idea of cap resistances and the modules to defend yourself against it. another one could be a module that makes the cap recharge slightly slower but has really good anti nos/neut resistances. at the same time while mixing with the cap you could get the laser cap use down by 25% and up amarr cap and recharge time a bit.

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.04.10 00:48:00 - [12]
 

I'd also tend to agree with the OP's idea since it doesn't favor Amarr in too obvious a way and still is somewhat inline with the back-story.

Also, it allows for balancing on a "per ship" basis to prevent certain Amarr ships *curse*cough* from becoming even more powerful.

You could even use this to boost Minmatar some -their cap-layouts were stolen from the Ammar or simply are too much of a patchwork to extract energy from efficiently Wink

Not to mention its usefulness in giving some love to previously little-used ship-types in EVE so a big "thumbs up" for this idea. Very Happy

All this obviously requires a ginormous amount of testing to be useful.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.04.10 11:58:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Erim Solfara on 24/04/2007 18:28:50

Thank you for the support and actually relevant discussion.

I'm not sure it'd take masses of balancing though, values could be applied to all the races across the boards, and those that are problematic, like, for example, the curse, could be changed to be more vulnerable afterwards as time goes by.

Does no-one else think this'd work?

Joe Shooter
You is Trollin' Enterprises.
Posted - 2007.05.31 18:53:00 - [14]
 

It's a revolutionary Idea, but I actually like it Very Happy

If we think irl or logically, ships pilots and designers if they new that energy was actually going to be sucked out of their ships wouldn't just sit back and accept it they would probably begin to design mods like the OP is talking about, this idea seems completely viable if only hard implement, but it seems like much better fix than some of the other ideas in this thread.

I like it

Deacon Ix
Volition Cult
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.06.04 09:24:00 - [15]
 

I like it,

Basicially your are suggesting resistance to cap draining EWar, every other EWar has its counter and tho you could argue that cap boosters, cap rechargers et al are the counter to NOS/neuts these generally are used to make a fit work, having a resistance to NOS will give armour tankers a bit more of a bonus in PvP,

for example my alt got attacked in a belt in a tanking Myrmidon by a vaga with NOS, nanos ect and went down pretty sharpish, went to get same vaga in my Drake and he couldn't get me below 90% shields and I still had full use of all my weapons.

I also like the idea of cap drained being proportional to sig radius.

but what about a % chance to hit with NOS/neuts and make them more inline with ECM, it would also stop people relying solely on NOS to tank.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.06.04 09:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Angelus Xenotov
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Angelus Xenotov

Congratulations, you have just turned the Nos domi into the Nosgeddon or NosPoc, solving nothing.

Sorry kids, increasing PG consumption on Nos is not the answer.


How many NosPoc's and Nos Geddons do you see currently? How many midslots do these ships have? Who's racial EW is nos?

The main problem with nos is that it is combined with Midslot EW and/or with drones. Thats the real issue.


No, an 8 rack of NOS on a geddon would be an issue if they did the changes you suggested, Geddon still has a drone bay and would be a ***** to fight. Your idea just seems to scream 'FAVOUR AMAARR!'


you can already fit a monster tank, MWD, Web, and scrambler on a Geddon with loads more Heavy Nos than you can on a domi.

Its the combination of NOS, mid slot EW[and cap booster] and drone damage bonus+backups that make the domi so powerful.


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.06.04 09:43:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Erim Solfara
snip


Some basic problems. I am not going to go through the full explaination of why they are problems, but they should be fairly self evident.

1. Introducing a third element to Amarr is unnessesary and does not fix the core of the problem. As well, it changes the focus of an entire race of ships.

2. Extra modules that need to be fitted in low slots reduce the effectiveness of high low slot ships prime purpose. E.G. Caldari+tackling.

As well, it benefits races that need low slots less.


The core of the amarr problem is in two points. First, they have only one bonus. Second, due to cap use and fitting, they are unable to tank and gank at the same time and EW deficient. These issues stem from the fact that they dont do enough damage, and, if the game is going to go into a situation where battles are intended to last longer, they cannot do more damage. Amarr work on a damage buffer applied before opponents can get under their guns. Absent this damage buffer they need to do other things than deal damage.

Low mid slots + competing low slots for tank/gank + 1 bonus is the problem that plagues them. Cap and fitting are secondary issues

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.06.04 19:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

1. Introducing a third element to Amarr is unnessesary and does not fix the core of the problem. As well, it changes the focus of an entire race of ships.

2. Extra modules that need to be fitted in low slots reduce the effectiveness of high low slot ships prime purpose. E.G. Caldari+tackling.

As well, it benefits races that need low slots less.


The core of the amarr problem is in two points. First, they have only one bonus. Second, due to cap use and fitting, they are unable to tank and gank at the same time and EW deficient. These issues stem from the fact that they dont do enough damage, and, if the game is going to go into a situation where battles are intended to last longer, they cannot do more damage. Amarr work on a damage buffer applied before opponents can get under their guns. Absent this damage buffer they need to do other things than deal damage.

Low mid slots + competing low slots for tank/gank + 1 bonus is the problem that plagues them. Cap and fitting are secondary issues


Valid points, couple of arguments for you though if you don't mind.

1. This is not a third element to Amarr, it's another element to the whole set of ships in Eve, the point was that it's another anyone can choose to make when setting their ship up. I was only ever suggesting it as a possible aid to Amarr, not an Amarr-only change. All cap-heavy setups (e.g. blaster ships, dual rep armour tanking, laser boats, etc etc) can be crippled by nos, either by being rendered completely defenceless immediately, or by making themm burn through a hold full of cap boosters faster than they'd like to. As for changing the focus, Amarr are supposed to be the 'cap-warfare' race, as least that was the last I heard. I'm not sure whether I like the idea, I still like the big guns thick armour approach, but if that's the way the devs want to take it, I'll go along with it, better that than the Khanid fiasco right? Razz

2. Yes, something I'll admit I didn't think about alot, medslot and highslot intensive ships that aren't bothered about their lows so much.
I don't think this would be such a problem though, I don't fly Caldari much, so correct me if I'm wrong someone, but lowslots are usually going to be more valuable as damage mods, shield mods, or ECM/sensor booster mods, aren't they? I can understand if you have a active tanked shield booster, the added nos resistance could come in handy, but you have to sacrifice slots usually used for extra damage etc.
The thing that's going to stop these mods just being dumped in as a last thought is the fact that it's only going to be useful IF you get nossed. That's a fairly big if depending on the ship you're flying.

Use of lowslots for these mods on High and Low slot dominant ships is a gamble of course, but so is fitting everything else, and the point is that the racial resistance would be balanced so that perhaps Amarr only need to fit 1 resistance mod, whereas a ganking blaster setup (likely to get nossed) would fit 2 or maybe 3.
I'm just hypothesising, it'd require actual testing and balancing that I'm not really qualified to mentally simulate.

As for the core of the Amarr problem, I never denied that the bulk of it lies in other areas (fitting, cap use, lasers, etc), this was only ever suggested as a possible ADDITION to a variety of changes that will make the race competative, it's not just a single 'uber' attribute that's assigned to our race that needs upping by a couple of decimal points.

Shodana
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.06.05 00:40:00 - [19]
 

How about give all Amarr ships the cap reduction bonus as a "racial trait" so that with controlled burst 4 or 5, lasers use only a marginal amount of energy unless using high-damage, close range (+ T2) ammo.

How about the wonderful idea of capacitor overload? All these nos boats are out there stacked to hell with nosferati (?) draining ships left, right, and center keeping their capacitor level at tip top levels. Ever overcharged a 9v battery or put 2 9v batteries together... suckers get hot enough to leave scars (especially after 2 days Twisted Evil).
So why not have the risk of damaging your cap level for overcharging your cap?

Another hateful idea bound to tick people off is making the number of nos/neut per ship dependent on ship class.
Frig Class: 1 nos, 1 neut (2 total)
Destroyer Class: 2 nos, 1 neut (3 total)
Cruiser Class: 1 nos, 1 neut (2 total)
pilrim, curse: 3 total, any mix -they do have gun and launcher hardpoints.
BC class: 2 nos, 1 neut (3 total)
BS class: 2 nos, 2 neut (4 total)

Sadly, it's the drone boats that are always the nos/neut addicts, even if they get blaster bonuses of some kind or no weapon bonus like the myrm), and the ones that are wrecking things. Even high speed nos-phoons are griped about. Short of CCP doing something radical about nos, keep expecting to see all the gallente drone boats kitted up with nos and phoons trying to be dominix's.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.06.05 02:17:00 - [20]
 

NOS is the only critical ewar with no associated resistance. ECM has racial sensor strength , damps reduce sensor range and resolution , tracking disruptors divide tracking speed , target painters multiply sig radius. Some velocity remains when webbed , warp strength can let you warp off with a few points on.

NOS is better and easier to use than anything else because it has no real counter. Fixed range , trackless , not affected by sig radius or any stat in the game for that matter. It only stops helping you when your enemy has zero cap left.

A new cap resistance stat would call for some tank-related modules. Armor tankers would have an Energized Insulative Plating , shield tankers would have a Void Stabilization Field , both converting the potential cap loss into a smaller amount of damage applying to armor or shield. This would work well along with cap resist mods.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.06.05 11:13:00 - [21]
 

RE: Shodana
Made an effort so far in here, so I'm afraid I've gotta say it again, it'd be nice to have at least some feedback on the idea proposed before you go and suggest other fixes which have all been heard before.

RE: Stakhanov
That's a very interesting idea, being able to rejig your shields/armour to absorb some of the nos' effect right? I hadn't thought of that one.

Quite possible though, could provide some interesting builds.

Nofonno
Amarr
Posted - 2007.06.05 13:15:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Nofonno on 05/06/2007 13:19:06
Nice points above, mainly Stakhanov…

My humble opinion is that nosferatu should be tracked (as, in my opinion, all targetted modules should), should suffer stacking penalty and fall-off.

I would concur only to one of the additional modules, for, say, Capacitor Sheath that would percentually lower the amount drained/neutralised (say 10%–15%…?). Make it a low slot module, with largish PG consumption, but not too much—only so that Caldari can grind their teeth, because they cannot both capactior shield and shield tank at the same time Twisted Evil

Plus I would also hazard a skill for those, although Energy Emission Systems or Electronic Warfare should do, too.

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2007.06.05 15:40:00 - [23]
 

How about just trade in the laser cap reduction 'bonus' for a NOS/NUET range bonus?

This would make things interesting since most weapons are long to medium range. Most nos would be extended out a bit.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.06.05 20:32:00 - [24]
 

I like the idea, but it seems unnecessarily complicated.

What would be the difference between your concept and just buffing the Amarr capacitor amount by a ton and the regen by a health bit? The cap use of weaps + tank is such that I would guess even trebling the amount of base cap and a slight regen boost would do the same thing.

Why go to the hassle of hardening cap when you can just boost the total amount to get approximately the same effect?

Nyxus

PS- I would still like to see a nos nerf and the cap bonus on all Amarr ships changed even if this idea/concept were implemented.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.06.06 12:06:00 - [25]
 

the BoB guy is right

although not the worst idea i have heard, although i think they should model the cap more like a real cap where peak regen is at 0% cap. would at least let you get off a few rounds, and maybe even rep every now and again.

the nosageddon doesn't work at all because it has no back up drones, pop one drone and its dps is cut by 20%. nor does it have a drone bonus or a giant drone bay.

and ffs amarr need all the love they can get. and no eanm cpu increase isnt love for amarr.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.06.06 17:07:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Erim Solfara on 24/06/2007 18:23:51
Originally by: Nofonno
I would concur only to one of the additional modules, for, say, Capacitor Sheath that would percentually lower the amount drained/neutralised (say 10%–15%…?). Make it a low slot module, with largish PG consumption, but not too much—only so that Caldari can grind their teeth, because they cannot both capactior shield and shield tank at the same time Twisted Evil


Along the lines of what I was thinking, a percentage resistance boost would reduce it like so, the resistance bonuses would be naturally stacking nerfed, with a percentage of a percentage, just like the EANMs.

Originally by: Nyxus
What would be the difference between your concept and just buffing the Amarr capacitor amount by a ton and the regen by a health bit?


The difference is that this is a tool that all pilots can employ, the point of this proposal is that any pilot can decide to harden against nos, the only reason I've tied this to Amarr at-all is we are supposed to be the 'cap warfare' race, and there's an upcoming buff.

Try not to look at it just from an Amarr perspective, but as a new option for all pilots.

Originally by: Nofonno
PS- I would still like to see a nos nerf and the cap bonus on all Amarr ships changed even if this idea/concept were implemented.


Yes, there will need to be other tweaks, cap usage and powergrid requirements of the guns, the bonuses, etc etc... this was only ever a partial component of the 'oomph'

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
i think they should model the cap more like a real cap where peak regen is at 0% cap. would at least let you get off a few rounds, and maybe even rep every now and again.

While this would make life alot easier under nos, nossing and neuting should still be a totally valid tactic, a nerf to nos will have to happen on the module/fitting side of things, make it more difficult for people to fit enough to be able to nos someone beyond the 20% mark, and leave the curve as it is.

I only say this because I think it'd be unfair to almost completely invalidate nos setups by not rendering a target helpless. Point is, to be enough to get a rep cycle off or a shot or two, that's still enough to make it pointless to try to nos to 0%

Thanks for all the responses guys, much appreciated (I thought this thread was dead) if we can keep it on this idea though, and not cookie-cutter fixes, that'd be grand.Smile

Nomme
Mugen Shipyards
Posted - 2007.06.22 12:42:00 - [27]
 

I like this thread as it articulates many of the problems I think we have in EvE regarding the use of Nosferatu,and how this directly affects Amarr.
Nice thread Erim i'll be watching this one closely.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.22 13:55:00 - [28]
 

It's not a bad idea - could go further and racially vary the capacitor charge algorithms, so Amarr get the 0% peak, Minnie get say 50%, Caldari 66%, Gallente the usual 33% or something like that.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.06.22 16:05:00 - [29]
 

Thanks Nomme, and interesting point James.

I'd rather not be lumped with a peak regen at an arbitary point though, if we're gonna change it, perhaps it should be settable by the pilot on his from the fitting panel or something?

I kinda like it where it is, but then maybe I shouldn't shoot the idea down because I don't want something changed : P stuff gets nerfed regardless.

Hmm, anyone got thoughts on that?

Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
Posted - 2007.06.26 23:20:00 - [30]
 

/sign to the original post


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