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Ikasu
Gallente
Scrutari
Posted - 2007.04.05 02:30:00 - [1]
 

More and more I see the more outspoken Intaki voicing their will for us to be seperated from the federation and be made into our own empire, so as an Intaki myself I would like to address this with some counter points. This is not a "trap," and if you can't post with an open mind please do not read forward. I say this only because I know many people on these forums post only for the sake of arguing, not for the sake of looking at the other side.

The idealism of the Intaki freedom was, without doubt, spawned by the ideal of the Caldari becoming their own state. This was all but predicted by the Federation and was one of the driving causes that made us fight against this "freedom." However, the Caldari was a much differant case. They were large, united, and good people who had a generally differant outlook. They deserved their own empire, but do the Intaki? It seems almost like a kind of blind ambition that we seek to tear away and become our own nation, that we build our own life in far away systems. But what would the reprocussions be?

If any of the other empires, say the Amarr, decided to attack before we were established we'd be screwed. Though that is only one point. Furthermore, many Intaki (like myself) do not wish to be pulled away from the worlds we've grown to know and love, what will you do with them? Will you tear the very bloodline in half for your ideals? Many non-liberation Intaki don't bother speaking up, but thats likely only due to the fact that being a rebel is not the norm. Many Intaki are just pilots flying the galaxy and have yet to even form an opinon on this, many don't care, and many would rather stay with their federation friends, what of them?

The Intaki is just a single bloodline, and sadly we are one that has become ambitious to an almost insane extent. Is it out religious beliefs that lead us to this? Our philosphy? Or was it just one drugged up man with a lot of charisma? Hell, maybe i'm the one in the wrong, if I wasn't open to this possibility I wouldn't have made this thread.

My point being is that a seperation from the Federation could ultimately turn out bad and leave both the Intaki and the Gallente in a bad spot. And what if our liberation made an example? What if the remaining two bloodlines pulled apart to become their own? Then what if the other empires followed? Ambition spreads as people witness it's success. Discuss.

Eden Ramani
Intaki Mining and Exploration.
Posted - 2007.04.05 03:02:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Eden Ramani on 05/04/2007 03:00:03

Intaki Union has proven that smaller numbers do not equal weakness or dicate failute, we have downed foes many times larger than us.

the keys to success (as it was expressed to me while I was a younger more naive pilot and have since found to be true) are friendships and alliances. It is a universal truth that even the great empire governments maintain.

could the Minmatar have beaten the Federation with out Gallente support? Could the Caldari have won their freedom with out Intaki Support?

you say the Intaki can not stand on their own and must use the Federation as a crutch, I say look to the Syndicate and see Intaki of a much lesser number than could be free hold their sovereignty absolutely and with much more freedom than the Federation would ever give.

yes it will be difficult to be free, yes the road will be dangerous, but if we do nothing we drown in apathy and become homogenized into the corrupt machine of the Federation. A machine that has already claimed so many, consuming them like fuel and expelling the odorus exsaust of collaborators.

The Federation is not more likely to succeed and keep us “safe”. They are more likely to cause the Intaki harm, as they have done in the past.

There is no reason to fear freedom and to stay locked in a corrupt regime simply because some are afraid of what lurks outside the Federation's boarders. Whatever is out there we will face regardless of our position in the Federation, better at least to face it free.

I am not afraid Ikasu, if you would be brave then take my hand and join me.

Eden Ramani
Follower of Ida

Zagamesh
Posted - 2007.04.05 03:13:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Zagamesh on 05/04/2007 03:11:23
Intaki Liberation is an agenda put forward by a small minority - primarily capsuleers - that in no way reflects the majority of Federal citizens, although they would like to lead you to believe otherwise. No, those supporting Intaki Seperation are nothing more than racists operating under the guise of fighting for freedom in order to push their facist agenda.

Secessionists claim they fight for freedom, but one must ask Freedom from what? In what way has the Federation oppressed the Intaki? In what form has the Federation impugned upon the liberties of the Intaki? Can these secessionists answer that? So far I have seen no answer. Indeed it seems rather that these secessionists have placed the imaginary yoke of tyranny upon themselves and like stray asses they run in circles, confused by their own delusions.

The secessionists claim that they speak for the Intaki people and that their fight is for their liberation. Yet have the majority of Intaki asked for this in any form? No. Have these secessionists asked for a referendum on the matter? No. Have they asked for the matter to be called to vote, as it should be in a free and democratic society? No. When, a minority attempts to force their views upon the majority that is despotism and is absolutely unacceptable.





Cipher7
Posted - 2007.04.05 04:18:00 - [4]
 

Theoretically any ethnic group have a right to an independent homeland.

The problems arise during implementation, when a number of ethnic groups mixed together for hundreds of years, suddenly one group wants "independence" from the ethnic group that live right across the street.

Suddenly your neighbors are foreigners and maybe enemies.

Zagamesh
Posted - 2007.04.05 04:28:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Zagamesh on 05/04/2007 04:26:49
Originally by: Cipher7
Theoretically any ethnic group have a right to an independent homeland.


I highly doubt there is a significant amount of people in the Federation who can claim they are one hundred percent Intaki, Gallente, Mannar, Caldari, Jin-Mei or Matari. As such any decision based on a persons ethnicity is pointless.

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2007.04.05 07:40:00 - [6]
 

There are untold numbers of Intaki all around in positions of power. The pod pilots are just a small percentage of that, although probably the most flexible lot. There are Intaki in employ of every Gallente corporation, including the military arms.

So far none of them have expressed any interest in separation - right now the only voices that shout "Liberate Intaki NOW!" are Amarrian ones, and they seem too busy killing people elsewhere than to be bothered to visit the Intaki system.

If there was a large number of Intaki that desired a seperate state apart from the Federation it would be different. But up to now I have yet to see reasons why this would benefit the Intaki people.

GoGo Yubari
Veto.
Posted - 2007.04.05 11:49:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Zagamesh
Intaki Liberation is an agenda put forward by a small minority - primarily capsuleers - that in no way reflects the majority of Federal citizens


While you may be right in regards to numbers, you are still gravely mistaken. We're not just capsuleers. The people on the planets read these same GalNet messages. In fact, they eat it up and turn us into heroes and idols. Who can blame them? It's our responsibility to represent ideas that we are exposed to because of our privileged positions.

It seems to me you don't understand the power inherent in your elevated state of being.

Rakiro
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.05 12:51:00 - [8]
 

As an Intaki I already consider myself to be a free man. The Gallente Federation is the only truely free society in the galaxy that has not devolved into anarchy, and that is a fact I am proud of. Even the Minmatar cannot claim true freedom due to their relentless oppression from the Amarr.

The upper echelons of the government are indeed undoubtably corrupt, however that kind of thing is to be expected from any large corporation or governing body. If we Intaki split from the Federation, any government we create for ourselves would eventually succumb to the same corruption, and it would be nieve to think otherwise. The only other realistic alternative is the kind of unchecked, chaotic anarchy seen in the 0.0 sectors.

It seems to me as though the secessionists have not really thought this through. Every way I look at this argument, it just seems as though they want independance for the sake of independance.

...Or is it that they are simply using the idea of 'freeing' the Intaki people to cause a ruckus? I will leave you with that thought.

Dallan Arethi
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.04.05 14:45:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Dallan Arethi on 05/04/2007 14:43:52
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
Originally by: Zagamesh
Intaki Liberation is an agenda put forward by a small minority - primarily capsuleers - that in no way reflects the majority of Federal citizens


While you may be right in regards to numbers, you are still gravely mistaken. We're not just capsuleers. The people on the planets read these same GalNet messages. In fact, they eat it up and turn us into heroes and idols. Who can blame them? It's our responsibility to represent ideas that we are exposed to because of our privileged positions.


Both you and Zagamesh are correct. The numbers are, in my view, the crux of the matter. While only the most blindly patriotic of us would oppose our people's or any people's right to self-determination, it remains the case that so far downside opinion leans against the secessionist cause.

I agree with you that it is your job to advocate your views to the downside majority. Not only is it your prerogative in a society that enshrines freedom of speech, but, barring Senator Blaque or his odious ilk ascending to the presidency and pushing their views into law, it is the only way I expect that opinion to change. I am sure that you are up to fighting that war of ideas.

However, until such time as the opinion does change, those such as myself and Madame Le'Danness are similarly obligated to see the calls for secession as the call of the few, not of the many. It is no better for your few, or Phantomas' few, to push our people down a path they did not choose than it would be for the Federal government or anyone else to do so.

Regards,

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:16:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Saxon Hawke on 05/04/2007 15:13:04
The primary political right of the individual and of political communities must be to secede from any larger political entity, whether they were born into it, were forced to join it, or voluntarily joined it. If one denies or relinquishes that right, one is little more than a slave--and no agreement to become a slave can be legally or morally binding.

Secession of individuals and communities does not have to mean war and violence. It should be a natural evolutionary feature of all political entities. We suggest practical and nonviolent means by which such separation can occur and the kinds of networks and confederations that could be created to replace oppressive nation states.

In the name of nationalism, religion, ideology, tradition or "the common good," the governments of the universe suppress individual liberty and individuals' control of their own communities. Special interest- corporate- state- bureaucratic- military elites across space tax,regulate, bully, beat, prosecute, jail and execute citizens into submission.

The concept of individual liberty is simple: individuals should be free to do whatever they please as long as they don't harm others by using force or fraud. This is the basic ethical tenet or "golden rule" of all religions, one corrupted by layers of theology and ritual and centuries of kowtowing to political authority.

Individual consent–not some nationalist, racial,religious, tribal or, ideological construct or “social contract”–is the only legitimate basis of any social, economic and political organization.

DarkNicodimus
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:29:00 - [11]
 

The Intaki people are given the same rights and freedoms of any pod pilot in gallente.We should be working together to fix the injustices that are present within any empire.People like IU would like you to beleive that all Intaki want to seperate.My experiences have shown me that this percentage is so small that it can be barely recorded.IU represent the extreme side that would resort to any extremes to achieve a goal that very few want.Why would Intakis want to follow this, replace one empire with good solid goals and replace it with chaos.

CYI is loaded with Intaki,s fighting along side there fellow brothers of Caldari, Gallente , Minmitar, Ammarr ,we all hold the same vision of freedom and safety for all pod pilots to due there legal business. Placid is our home and we due our best to keep it safe for all.This is a model that everyone should follow

Podar Ishtar
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:29:00 - [12]
 

Intaki Separation is a pipe dream, you are lucky the vote failed to put you and the Minmatar all in your own separate locations.

Rakiro
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Saxon Hawke
Edited by: Saxon Hawke on 05/04/2007 15:13:04
The concept of individual liberty is simple: individuals should be free to do whatever they please as long as they don't harm others by using force or fraud.



Agreed. And as far as I have experienced, the Federation allows us to do this just fine. So why do we need to break away from them and form our own little society, possibly ostracizing ourselves in the process I might add, when the Federation provides everything a free man requires?

Secession because one is unhappy with the way the Federation is conducting itself is fine. Secession just because we have the right to do it, which seems to be what you are suggesting, just seems like a waste of time to me.

Eden Ramani
Intaki Mining and Exploration.
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: DarkNicodimus
People like IU would like you to believe that all Intaki want to separate.


that actually isn't true, we have said many times we do not believe all Intaki want to be free. Some are very happy being collaborators and many others don’t even know what it means to be Intaki or to embrace Ida. That is part of the problem.

But what can not be denied is that there are Intaki who do want to be free, I am an example. I am Intaki and before I took to the stars I dreamed of freedom from a Government that almost passed legislation to force us into planetary interment camps. 49% of the voting populace supported that measure.

Clearly there is much work still to do I will work endlessly towards that goal.

Eden Ramani
Follower of Ida
Freedom Fighter
Intaki

Zagamesh
Posted - 2007.04.05 16:08:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Eden Ramani
a Government that almost passed legislation to force us into planetary interment camps. 49% of the voting populace supported that measure.


May you please direct me to the bill in which this, "measure" was put forward? Or is this just some more fallacy and hearsay?

Dallan Arethi
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.04.05 16:28:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Zagamesh
Originally by: Eden Ramani
a Government that almost passed legislation to force us into planetary interment camps. 49% of the voting populace supported that measure.


May you please direct me to the bill in which this, "measure" was put forward? Or is this just some more fallacy and hearsay?


She's referring to last year's presidential election, in which such measures (described in slightly less lurid fashion) comprised part of Senator Mentas Blaque's platform.

While I'm no fan of Blaque, I can imagine that there are a great deal of other reasons to support him than a desire to confine us to ethnic ghettoes (or reaosn to believe that the courts would never allow such a policy to be enacted), so I find that particular turn of rhetoric slightly disingenuous.

Only slightly, mind.

Regards,

Eden Ramani
Intaki Mining and Exploration.
Posted - 2007.04.05 16:56:00 - [17]
 

Dallan is correct, it was part of Senator Mentas' efforts to enforce the policy of his party where in Gallente are true Federation citizens and the rest of us(Intaki, Minmatar/Amarr/Caldar immigrants and those not Gallente) are "guests" and should act like it.

49% of the populace supported this policy, the only saving grace was an influx of Minmatar Immigrant voters and Intaki voters in the Placid Region. Clearly there is a problem.

The choice is not whether the Intaki and their allies among the lower classes and immigrant population should leave, but when. When will there be a separation and will it will be political dissolution or outright bloody civil war?

Do you think the Intaki or Minmatar would have tolerated anyone being sent to internment camps?

Intaki Union would have personally begun suicide bombing runs in Luminair while our clones were safely preserved with our allies in the Syndicate. We have already faced the Federation Navy and destroyed a Mothership, we are more than willing to continue to destroy their assets as necessary in exchange for our own.

Also for clarity I should note Intaki Liberation Front is not a violent militant organization like Intaki Union, they are an organization seeking freedom through political means. We support their ideology but often employ different methods. We consider them more moderate, but on the right path. Just a clarification so that the galnet readers don’t assume that two Intaki Freedom Forces are the same because we work towards the same goal.

And I’m pleased to see that Placid Reborn has finally stopped sitting on the fence of the Intaki agenda and have joined the Cyrene Initiative and shown what we have said all along, they are Collaborators with the Federation.

Eden Ramani
Intaki Freedom Fighter

Zagamesh
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:01:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Zagamesh on 05/04/2007 16:58:48
Well, Mlle. Ramani I can't say I'm not surprised. It's only the foolish or the dim-witted who would have believed Foiritain's mud slinging of Blaque's policies. When Blaque only wanted to tighten the current immigration laws, so that the Federation can focus on and help those who are disadvanted he's a racist who wants to stick everyone in ghettos? If anything his policies would have helped people out of the ghettos.

Still, just like any other anarchist, I suppose it's necessary for these secessionists to conjure up reasons for their rebellion however tenuous they are.

Eden Ramani
Intaki Mining and Exploration.
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:24:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Eden Ramani on 05/04/2007 17:21:22
Originally by: Zagamesh
Edited by: Zagamesh on 05/04/2007 16:58:48
Well, Mlle. Ramani I can't say I'm not surprised. It's only the foolish or the dim-witted who would have believed Foiritain's mud slinging of Blaque's policies. When Blaque only wanted to tighten the current immigration laws, so that the Federation can focus on and help those who are disadvanted he's a racist who wants to stick everyone in ghettos? If anything his policies would have helped people out of the ghettos.

Still, just like any other anarchist, I suppose it's necessary for these secessionists to conjure up reasons for their rebellion however tenuous they are.


news report


If both the pro-Intaki and anti-Freedom camps are agreeing on something chances are its true. it was his plan, it almost happened. Mentas lost by 2% only.


Ikasu
Gallente
Scrutari
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:25:00 - [20]
 

Wow, it seems another of my threads has become ragingly popular. I guess i'm just good like that; hmmmm, I'll do my best to respond to all the posts.

Miss Ramani, despite what you have said many other people still have a point. Those who want to tear away from the Federation and tear our very bloodline in half are a minority in the Federation. Will you honestly be willing to pull away from not just the gallente, but many many other Intaki as well to form probably the smallest Empire? Why numbers don't create victory they sure do help. Also, where will you get the funds to creat your own empire? To begin forming planets, buildings stations, and starting corperations?

As for Blaque, eh, I suck at politics. It was a stupid idea to say the least but even if it was passed I doubt it'd have lasted very long. Even if he is president, the courts aren't all ******s.

Eden Ramani
Intaki Mining and Exploration.
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ikasu
Wow, it seems another of my threads has become ragingly popular. I guess i'm just good like that; hmmmm, I'll do my best to respond to all the posts..


yes this is the place for such debate, perhaps not on Phantomas' thread. Could you maybe remove your questions there? I have endeavored to express them here and will answer your questions here as well.

Originally by: Ikasu

Miss Ramani, despite what you have said many other people still have a point. Those who want to tear away from the Federation and tear our very bloodline in half are a minority in the Federation. Will you honestly be willing to pull away from not just the gallente, but many many other Intaki as well to form probably the smallest Empire? Why numbers don't create victory they sure do help. Also, where will you get the funds to creat your own empire? To begin forming planets, buildings stations, and starting corperations?



Yes we accept that there will be Collaborators that will stay with the Federation, there are still Caldari living in the Federation even now.

as to the economics of an empire, I say again look at the Syndicate. Expelled and with nothing, a small group of Intaki have formed a region spanning homeland in harsh conditions. Building a place of freedom, free trade and all the other ideals we hold dear will be a long and difficult process to be sure. But I am not lazy or afraid, and the Intaki Spirit is not lazy or afraid either.

Originally by: Ikasu

As for Blaque, eh, I suck at politics. It was a stupid idea to say the least but even if it was passed I doubt it'd have lasted very long. Even if he is president, the courts aren't all ******s.


shrugging off the potential disaster and how close it came to be is irresponsible. All those who supported him are still there. It isn't as if Intaki Union attack civilian targets so really 100% of all those bastards will lodge their votes next time another racist wicked person steps forward.

Dallan Arethi
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:38:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Dallan Arethi on 05/04/2007 17:35:45
Originally by: Zagamesh
Edited by: Zagamesh on 05/04/2007 16:58:48
Well, Mlle. Ramani I can't say I'm not surprised.



Those who play with double negatives are apt to get burned.

Originally by: Zagamesh
It's only the foolish or the dim-witted who would have believed Foiritain's mud slinging of Blaque's policies.


And here is where we part. Unless you believe that the President has subverted ISD's reporters, that particular policy statement came straight from the horse's mouth.

(Ah, Eden is faster at searching net archives than I am.)

As for you, Eden, my point in regards to Blaque is simply this: While I was also greatly dismayed by the strength of Senator Blaque's support, the breadth of his platform (from increased defense spending, to a more aggressive foreign policy, to action against the Syndicate, to internal economic reform and centralisation, to his "cultural habitats" and other racist policies), precludes anyone from saying any more than "nearly half of the voting populace supported more of Blaque's platform than the President's".

Enough of a non-racist platform exists for a hypothetical person who supports a stronger central government to vote for, with a perhaps misguided belief that the system's checks and balances, such as the Supreme Court, would remove the more odious elements.

There is simply insufficient data to extrapolate support that widespread for the segregation/internment of immigrants as its own issue. Considering the demographics of the modern Federation (specifically, the proportion of non-Gallente bloodlines), I personally don't see it as likely that that support exists, otherwise I would likely agree with you that we were better off outside the Federation. Lacking hard data, however, I won't press the point.

Regards,

Eden Ramani
Intaki Mining and Exploration.
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:41:00 - [23]
 

perhaps Dallan, but I prefer to error on the side of caution when it comes to Internment camps for my people. It was part of the platform and it would have happened. I’m not willing to accept some good for the Gallente people at the expense of the Intaki and other minorities.

and I may be faster this time but your comment about a horse for a mouth is more apt. well maybe a horse's behind would have been closer, but still the man is an animal to be sure.


Dallan Arethi
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:53:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Dallan Arethi on 05/04/2007 17:50:16
Originally by: Eden Ramani
perhaps Dallan, but I prefer to error on the side of caution when it comes to Internment camps for my people.


Whereas I prefer to err on the side of caution where it comes to civil war. *wry smile* While I would far rather accept that than internment and the like, I would prefer to avoid both.

Quote:
It was part of the platform and it would have happened. I’m not willing to accept some good for the Gallente people at the expense of the Intaki and other minorities.


Nor am I. Nor, I suspect, are the pilots of Placid Reborn that you so malign, or a good many of the pilots of the Cyrene Initiative that you've fought against so often. I continue to believe there is room for a nuanced position on this issue. You are free to disagree, of course. You may even prove right.

Quote:
and I may be faster this time but your comment about a horse for a mouth is more apt. well maybe a horse's behind would have been closer, but still the man is an animal to be sure.


Heh. I censor myself to save ISD the work. I was raised on Gallente Prime in a politically active family (you might call them collaborators), so that's one of the more charitable descriptions of Senator Blaque I've heard in years.

Regards,

Zagamesh
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:59:00 - [25]
 

Yes, I read that news report. The article chose to quote only two small segments from what was an eighteen minute speech. Although I have not seen the full transcript of the speech I believe Blaque's comments were taken woefully out of context. I also fail to see where he planned to place the Intaki in internment camps? Blaque's policy was the segregation of immigrant populations, not Federal populations. The only Intaki I know of that would be immigrants would be those coming from Syndicate and I sure don't more Serpentis junkies getting a free ride in the Federation.

On the matter of ISD being objective, I wouldn't put it past the Progressive Party or a President who bastardises our constitution to try and run for a second term to be above greasing a few palms in the ISD.

Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Fates Assembly
The Final Stand.
Posted - 2007.04.05 18:29:00 - [26]
 


does your corporation (Strix Armaments and Defence) support your comments?

Tomahawk Bliss
Warlord

Father Abel
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2007.04.05 19:27:00 - [27]
 

Rakuro:

Quote:
It seems to me as though the secessionists have not really thought this through. Every way I look at this argument, it just seems as though they want independance for the sake of independance.



There is nothing wrong with independence for the mere sake of independence. It is within the prerogative of supposedly free peoples to determine for themselves how they collectively live, even if that determination be based upon arbitrary reasons.

If the Federation treasured those values as much as it leads the universe to believe, then it should find no problem with ethnic groups seceding from the whole. Unfortunately, history has revealed the Federation unable to stomach its own principles, readily dismissing them for sake of practicality when burdened or inconvenienced by their costs and dangers.




Dallan:

Quote:
Whereas I prefer to err on the side of caution where it comes to civil war.


Civil war or violent secession can only arise through the reactionary response of the party obstructing secession. Responsibility for such a tragic outcome, therefore, does not rest with the Intaki (which has the right to leave), but rather falls squarely on the shoulders of the Federation (which, by its own principles, has no right to keep them).


Quote:
There is simply insufficient data to extrapolate support that widespread for the segregation/internment of immigrants as its own issue. Considering the demographics of the modern Federation (specifically, the proportion of non-Gallente bloodlines), I personally don't see it as likely that that support exists, otherwise I would likely agree with you that we were better off outside the Federation. Lacking hard data, however, I won't press the point.



I agree that it is inconclusive whether half of the Federation actually supports the segregation/internment of immigrant populations. However, while a vote for Blaque may only support some of his platform items, it is necessarily complicit with all the other ones. The danger, then, is not that half the population wants to oppress immigrants. The danger is that if Blaque delivers on all the issues which, in the peoples' calculus, were important enough to elect him, then they are willing to accept his less palatable policies.

In short: While we cannot conclude that there is 50% support for xenophobic policies, we can at least conclude that 50% of the Federation have the fate of those immigrants up for sale.


Dallan Arethi
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.04.05 21:02:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Father Abel

Civil war or violent secession can only arise through the reactionary response of the party obstructing secession. Responsibility for such a tragic outcome, therefore, does not rest with the Intaki (which has the right to leave), but rather falls squarely on the shoulders of the Federation (which, by its own principles, has no right to keep them).



This is true enough in some cases. In the specific case of IU's campaign, which is what I was referring to in my discussion with Eden, the violence seems largely to have preceded the reactionary obstruction, unless one posits the majority of Intaki as obstructing their own independence.

This is not a repeat of the widespread Caldari uprising. Yet. Were it to become one, I would not fight against our departure, whether or not I personally chose to stay. To do so would, I agree with you, be entirely against the reasons I favour the Federation to begin with, and place full responsibility for the resulting bloodshed on those that do.

Quote:
In short: While we cannot conclude that there is 50% support for xenophobic policies, we can at least conclude that 50% of the Federation have the fate of those immigrants up for sale.


We can conclude thus, yes, to which I can only respond that it is their prices and, indeed, the extent of the fates on offer, that are still in question. And I am watching closely to see what answer presents itself.

Regards,

Marcel Bigeard
Strix Armaments and Defence
Posted - 2007.04.05 22:09:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Marcel Bigeard on 05/04/2007 22:13:07
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss

does your corporation (Strix Armaments and Defence) support your comments?

Tomahawk Bliss
Warlord



M. Bliss,
Strix Armaments and Defence supports the right of all its pilots to express their opinions as free citizens of the Federation. I can understand why you find them distasteful, for he, as myself, is a member of one of those minorities you assert are oppressed, suppressed, or in league with your supposed enemies.

Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Fates Assembly
The Final Stand.
Posted - 2007.04.05 22:39:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 05/04/2007 22:36:09
Originally by: Marcel Bigeard
Edited by: Marcel Bigeard on 05/04/2007 22:13:07
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss

does your corporation (Strix Armaments and Defence) support your comments?

Tomahawk Bliss
Warlord



M. Bliss,
Strix Armaments and Defence supports the right of all its pilots to express their opinions as free citizens of the Federation. I can understand why you find them distasteful, for he, as myself, is a member of one of those minorities you assert are oppressed, suppressed, or in league with your supposed enemies.


I ask simple questions when I want simple answers. so whose side are you on?

see I keep this list, I'd like to know if you are column A or column B. From what I have heard through Intaki Liberation Front you are definitely a Column B, but I always give a potential column B candidate the benefit of hearing it from his or her own mouth. You wouldn't want me to see you in a misrepresented light would you?


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