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Dark Fetish
Posted - 2007.04.02 10:40:00 - [1]
 

So I'm in a Mul-Zatah Monastery complex tonight with my Harbinger. It's nothing fancy (just a 4/10), but I've got the place to myself so I start blasting the nearest rat with my heavy beam lasers.

A few moments go by and a 5-day old character in a Caracal warps in. Within seconds he's gone through two Blood Raider cruisers and is working on a third. I've barely got my own target down to structure... the same one I was fighting when he arrived.

Even with my drones out, it was simply no contest. He had greater range, speed and apparently much greater damage. He was destroying ships faster than I ever could.

Now I'm not trying to be a poor sport, and I'm most certainly not calling out for anyone or anything to get nerfed, but never before had I witnessed such a glaring disparity.

With five million skill points and a nearly forty million ISK, tier two battlecruiser, I hardly expect to "win" EVE, but I at least thought I could give someone with less than a million skill points and a four million ISK cruiser a run for their money.

Was this just a crazy fluke, or am I ratting in the wrong ship? I really want to stick with Amarr, but boy was this discouraging. Neutral

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2007.04.02 10:46:00 - [2]
 

Short answer? yes.

PvP=gallente>minmatarr>caldari>amarr
PvE=caldari>minmatarr=gallente>amarr

what do these have in commoon?

all>amarr :(

at least at low skillpoints.

5m skillpoints gunnery>5m skillpoints missiles
1.2m skillpoints gunnery < 600K skillpoints missiles

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.04.02 10:46:00 - [3]
 

Amarr, or our weapons, lack the "range" in damages and makes them a bit "iffy" at best to use in combat.

Hell, one frigate with enough therm/em resistance can take out an Amarr battleship on a good day.

Anyway, it's hnot all lost for us Pax Amarr waving lunatics.

I myself went for the projectiles, even medium projectile III gives enough firepower to deal a heartfelt blow on to the unsuspecting foe.

Harbinger, even though that lovely ship is so majestic, is misunderstood because of the battlecruiser bonuses. Don't be fooled into the "Well it has laser bonuses, have to use lasers" hype.

I'd say, learn hybrids/projectiles, fit that mean ol' ship with 7 turrets and give 'em hell Cool

Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.04.02 10:46:00 - [4]
 

it's kinda well known the Caldari and their missiles own PVE, but to balance it out missiles simply don't do as much damage in PvP.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.04.02 10:47:00 - [5]
 

It's normal if you were shooting frigate rats and he had assault missile launchers...
It probably has to do with tanked damage types as well. Also , caldari don't have to deal with transversal , while you did , with rat aggro on you.

That said , you're probably right that amarr doesn't compete with caldari in pve...

Dark Fetish
Posted - 2007.04.02 11:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Stakhanov
It's normal if you were shooting frigate rats and he had assault missile launchers...
It probably has to do with tanked damage types as well. Also , caldari don't have to deal with transversal , while you did , with rat aggro on you.

That said , you're probably right that amarr doesn't compete with caldari in pve...

It was nothing but cruisers and stationary sentry guns/batteries. No frigates. And I was engaging at optimal range for my turrets/crystals. As far as I know, transversal had no impact. Furthermore, these were Blood Raiders... the supposed ideal NPC for Amarr to fight. (Their weakness is EM, my primary damage type.)

Anyhow, I very much appreciate the comments and advice. But still, five days?? I'm having a hard time getting over that. I've been playing for four months. Granted, that's still a n00b by EVE standards... but five days?? Geebus, for all I know, this guy was still on a trial account.

mr bighelmet
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2007.04.02 11:24:00 - [7]
 

Remember that today 5 day char could have some real nice cruiser/missiles skills
It probably couldn't tank **** on the other hand.

Kojirochan
Steel Daggers
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.04.02 11:42:00 - [8]
 

I dont have much trouble doing damage in PVE or PVP. Not suprised when i get over 300 for well aime shots when NPCing most ships. PVP it is'nt so bad unless comming up against sheild tanks. Then, Laser seem to struggle. Maybe i have been unlucky fighting people with high EM/THERM tanks which lead me to doing around 30 to 40 a shot

Arnaud Amaury
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp
PvP=gallente>minmatarr>caldari>amarr
PvE=caldari>minmatarr=gallente>amarr

what do these have in commoon?

all>amarr :(




Well ain't this a revoltin' development. Shocked

Is there any reason to go Amarr, or is it time to decide whether it's worth the hassle to start over?


diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:27:00 - [10]
 

The short answer is, no.

Amarr was slightly viable before the hitpoint boost but with prolonged combat which ccp wants you might as well train a more versatile race, end game gallante drones are best for damage, but before endgame they are best at armor tank, with modules their resists are just as good as amarr or better with amarr rep bonus'. If you don't choose gallante, minmatar and caldari are good second choices.

Amarr has very little flexibility, armor tank + lasers.
Look at the ships in the item database combare any of the cruisers/battlecruisers/battleships and their t2 veriants to an amarr ship, you will really know if you should put your time into training amarr.

If for some reason you are a masochist, train amarr ships and do what you can with them. they are pretty limited.

Arnaud Amaury
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:48:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: diabolic clone
If for some reason you are a masochist, train amarr ships and do what you can with them. they are pretty limited.


Well, snot.

I'm fine with struggling through a rough start if there's a payoff in the end, but life provides enough frustration and heartache. I'm not stupid enough to actually pay for it.

Back to biomass for this one. Sad

diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:50:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: diabolic clone on 02/04/2007 12:50:59
The longer answer,

there are some flexible amarr ships, like the arbitrator cruiser, which many would argue is a gallante design, its main offense is drones so you can do whatever else you want with its slot lay out.

Recon ships, verient of arbitrator, stronger and more flexible great ships.

Looking at all their non laser turret ships, because the worthwhile lasers are huge powergrid and cap requirements, without the real punch they need to be effective.

Inquisitor, missiles. Designed to be more caldari than amarr just a frigate though. the t2 based off its design has 2 missile slots, caldari's have 3. Think that would win 3 cruise missile launchers on a frigate >2 plus unfitable laser+tank.

since on the subject of frigates, the only t1 version of amarr that wouldn't focus completely on lasers is the crucifier, has the laser cap reduction bonus but you wont fit very good lasers on it with its powergrid. Basically a baby arbitrator that hasn't learned lasers don't do what they are suppose to, take huge fitting and cap for good damage.

But there is always a positive side, tuxford said amarr will get something of a change atleast to the apocalypse battleship which is the only viable amarr ship for a micro warp drive with its +cap bonus, since beams take too much grid and cap this makes it the only pulse (short range) laser to be able to fit a mwd, to something differant.

So seriously, amarr is a doomed race to compete. Pick one of the game developers baby projects like gallante or minmatar. They get all the love except when they have to bounce amarr on their knees so he doesn't growup to waste all his isk on a psychitrist.

Edit for mr. "!" face that beat me to posting the rest of what I have to say. I choose a bad name but i'm sticking with it, as I am with amarr ships since I sunk so much time in them. While you might be biomass for another alt I wont be until I really see amarr is complete crap which they are somewhat are already.

Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:03:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: diabolic clone
So seriously, amarr is a doomed race to compete. Pick one of the game developers baby projects like gallante or minmatar. They get all the love except when they have to bounce amarr on their knees so he doesn't growup to waste all his isk on a psychitrist.

Ok, so my experience comes from having 10m in gunnery, but I love Amarr, no ammo to worry about, reasonable damage, and at decent ranges most of the time.

Sure they have their downsides, but not everyone likes to be spoon fed "flavour-of-the-month."

Leilani Solaris
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:28:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: diabolic clone
So seriously, amarr is a doomed race to compete. Pick one of the game developers baby projects like gallante or minmatar. They get all the love except when they have to bounce amarr on their knees so he doesn't growup to waste all his isk on a psychitrist.

Ok, so my experience comes from having 10m in gunnery, but I love Amarr, no ammo to worry about, reasonable damage, and at decent ranges most of the time.

Sure they have their downsides, but not everyone likes to be spoon fed "flavour-of-the-month."


Agreed. Alot of training can make lasers good but for low sp/damage done, at least for pve caldari is the way to go.

Xi Chao
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:29:00 - [15]
 

Each race has its positive points and each has its negative, in general if you want to run missions quickly then caldari is the generally preferred method of doing these. The missile system allows you to change damage type no matter what mission it is and therefore makes the missions much easier.

Amarr dont have that luxury, they have lasers which only put out two damage types, EM primary and thermal secondary, which sucks if you come up against a shield tanker due to there natuarlly higher resistances to those.

Sometimes you have to look past the downsides and see that amarr although not the best at 1 v 1 or missions they are pretty good in fleets, obviously the curse/pilgrim is the real exception here which are very good 1 v 1 there are a few other ships that do well aswell.

So if you plan to join a corporation and take part in fleet battles then amarr isnt that bad, if you plan on running around 1 v 1 and still want to be amarr then train for the recon ships and WTFPWN everyone.




Arnaud Amaury
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ifni
Ok, so my experience comes from having 10m in gunnery, but I love Amarr, no ammo to worry about, reasonable damage, and at decent ranges most of the time.


The ammo thing is the only practical advantage I can see (granted, at much lower SP), but people are actually in competition to sell me ammo, how much of a real advantage is that?

Originally by: Ifni
Sure they have their downsides, but not everyone likes to be spoon fed "flavour-of-the-month."


As I understand it, this is a game where the player skill primarily involves planning for expected situations. If the previous representations are accurate, why in the world would I want to choose a path which is sub-optimal for all situations? I mean, I understand the satisfaction that comes from being successful as an underdog and I'm not spending my time looking for the UBERuber path, but people pay me to deal with broken things and sub-optimal processes. I'm not really interested in paying to do that.

On the other hand, I don't want to toss out even the little time I've invested if I can find one thing I like that the Amarr do well. Being bottom of the barrel PvP-wise really stinks as that's kind of the whole basis of the game, isn't it?

diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:39:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: diabolic clone
So seriously, amarr is a doomed race to compete. Pick one of the game developers baby projects like gallante or minmatar. They get all the love except when they have to bounce amarr on their knees so he doesn't growup to waste all his isk on a psychitrist.

Ok, so my experience comes from having 10m in gunnery, but I love Amarr, no ammo to worry about, reasonable damage, and at decent ranges most of the time.

Sure they have their downsides, but not everyone likes to be spoon fed "flavour-of-the-month."


I really don't have much else to say on amarr, which I've only put 4 months of learning into. I will say this thing on ammo since it was adressed to me.

T1 ammo may last forever, but you obviously haven't tried the t2 version which people will re-sell after it has been used so you cannot check the volitility on them all so your ammo will break very fast not even giving you all the shots someone who bought a full gun worth of ammo worth for a much higher price.

I won't even argue laser damage since the t2 stuff works.

Mifter Hogdido
Amarr
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:47:00 - [18]
 

I fly Amarr as well and I do enjoy the ships. Though some days I do wonder what it would be like flying a T2 Blaster-Thron. ugh

But its still fun. I just love the shiny hulls and armor.

Hopefully one day we'll get a boost, until then, I dont go with "the flavor of the month" I do what I do, and that is AMARR!

Kerc Kasha
Caldari
Joe Loten Foundation
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:55:00 - [19]
 

I don't see why everyone keeps going on about how crap amarr is for PVP, its not true. If your up against someone with a decent tank no matter what damage your doing they'll still be doing roughly the same damage, think of an 75% across the board tank, lasers will do the best due to their naturally higher damage output then any other. Yes it means a single adaptive nano on a ship ruins your ability to fight as well as a tempest loaded up with quake for example but that doesn't mean your completely useless. Lasers have their advantages and trust me when it comes to those monster tanks, lasers reign supreme.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2007.04.02 14:11:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Xi Chao
Amarr dont have that luxury, they have lasers which only put out two damage types, EM primary and thermal secondary, which sucks if you come up against a shield tanker due to there natuarlly higher resistances to those.
[/quote



Erhm, what stats are you looking at?? EM and thermal are the weakest parts on a sheild tanker.... When we are talking natural resist.

EM have 0% base resists
Thermal have 20% base resists


Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2007.04.02 14:37:00 - [21]
 

4 months old Amarr charracter?
Keep it, thats too much time to just throw away, also CCP said Amarr is getting a "boost" soon, so there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.02 14:38:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: diabolic clone
I really don't have much else to say on amarr, which I've only put 4 months of learning into. I will say this thing on ammo since it was adressed to me.

T1 ammo may last forever, but you obviously haven't tried the t2 version which people will re-sell after it has been used so you cannot check the volitility on them all so your ammo will break very fast not even giving you all the shots someone who bought a full gun worth of ammo worth for a much higher price.

I won't even argue laser damage since the t2 stuff works.

I have used the T2 ammo, alot as it stands. I buy mine straight from the market, or take it as loot from other people, but I understand what you're saying about people selling damaged crystals.

Indeed, if it is PVE you're looking for then you will find to begin with a Raven does indeed fare better, but nothing can beat ammoless npcing courtesy of the Apocalypse.

So, it's really down to what you want; a solution now, and a higher number of missions per hour, or something for the future that has several advantages, but takes more skillpoints to fly as effectively.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.04.02 15:09:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/04/2007 15:05:17
Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: diabolic clone
So seriously, amarr is a doomed race to compete. Pick one of the game developers baby projects like gallante or minmatar. They get all the love except when they have to bounce amarr on their knees so he doesn't growup to waste all his isk on a psychitrist.

Ok, so my experience comes from having 10m in gunnery, but I love Amarr, no ammo to worry about, reasonable damage, and at decent ranges most of the time.

Sure they have their downsides, but not everyone likes to be spoon fed "flavour-of-the-month."



You are a n00b. If you use such rubbish arguements such as 'no ammo' then you are a rubbish n00b and in fact you are so rubbish you should self destruct all your ships right away.

edit : Oh and 10 mill in gunnery is NOTHING.

shinsushi
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:30:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kerc Kasha
I don't see why everyone keeps going on about how crap amarr is for PVP, its not true. If your up against someone with a decent tank no matter what damage your doing they'll still be doing roughly the same damage, think of an 75% across the board tank, lasers will do the best due to their naturally higher damage output then any other. Yes it means a single adaptive nano on a ship ruins your ability to fight as well as a tempest loaded up with quake for example but that doesn't mean your completely useless. Lasers have their advantages and trust me when it comes to those monster tanks, lasers reign supreme.


Your a caldari pilot, with most of your sp towards caldari things. You have access to no T2 amarrian vessels (Amarr BS lvl 2??), no T2 amarrian weaponry, no T2 armor tanking stuff. So what exactly is your qualification to talk about amarr? When you wanna talk about caldari I will listen seeing as you will soon be piloting their command ships.

Of course I am not saying I have a fountain of knowledge to speak on the subject (you know being an alt) but I can see you don't know what the hell you are talking about and should stfu since the proof is against you. Same goes for the gunnery SP p**sing contest. Proof or STFU.

PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
The Night Crew
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:30:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 02/04/2007 16:36:29
Tbh, dont bother starting over.

It will take you 3-5 weeks to grind your character up in caldari/missile skills. I went the galentee road but have since converted to caldari mostly so I can even the sp disparity in pve but found them just as acceptable in pvp.

Someone above put the caldari ships as second worst in pvp. I dont think thats accurate. You are much better off puting the individual races in sp based brackets. If you are mission running it would be worth training caldari for the missile beniefts- when you pvp than you have a choice between the beniefts of heavy armour tanks (amarr) or dmg specific caldari. Its just as intimidating to come up against a bunch of apocs or t2 amarr as it is to warp in on a mixed caldari cruiser group of blackbirds caracals or even drake/rokhs. Oh course you would tackle the two groups differently but dont buy into the hype than amarr suck in pvp. Ive seen one of my corp mates with a navy issue Apoc tank 7 of us blasting away and the only thing that eventually broke it was nossing the crapola out of him

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:34:00 - [26]
 


"Oh and 10 mill in gunnery is NOTHING."

ugh Some secret gunnery skills no one told me about?

Isyel
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus

"Oh and 10 mill in gunnery is NOTHING."

ugh Some secret gunnery skills no one told me about?


No just an "I PWN JOO" syndrome. And someone needs to fight some CVA and the like i reckon. Laughing

Kaiso Ohad
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:44:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ifni
but I love Amarr, no ammo to worry about


With the current need for Cap Boosters and the price of 4 sets of T1/2 sets of T2 crystals, I feel that the "no ammo" point is moot, at least for PVP.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:53:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/04/2007 16:54:33
Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/04/2007 16:53:11
Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/04/2007 16:49:26
Originally by: Lt Angus

"Oh and 10 mill in gunnery is NOTHING."

ugh Some secret gunnery skills no one told me about?



I belive what you are looking for is skills. My point is that bragging about 'oh lol I got 10 millz in gunnnery im uber' doesnt mean jack **** and jack left town you n00b.


edit : Even if you specialize in Amarr you need atleast 12 million sp in gunnery to be truly worthy of flying the emperors vessels. And considering your and that other n00b is Caldari both of you sux.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:54:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/04/2007 16:50:53
Originally by: Isyel



And someone needs to fight some CVA and the like i reckon. Laughing



You just suck. Don't project your suckyness on others.


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