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Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.28 05:49:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Humpalot on 28/03/2007 06:14:46
I realize only the Devs themselves can answer that but bear with me before flame on.

We know the Devs play EVE for their own enjoyment and in their own spare time. While some may disagree with this I think it is not only a good thing but a crucial thing for them to do. They need to be in the game to see it from the player's viewpoint rather than as some abstract problem they do for a paycheck.

That said I really wonder if they ever bother to reroll new toons and have a go. It is one thing for them to play EVE with (likely) well established characters but a completely other thing for them to see EVE again through the eyes of someone starting out.

I think this is important. When sitting around and brainstorming on the direction EVE needs to take do they have the sense of what their decisions mean to newer players? Many here are established players with comfortable bank accounts and 30 stations brimming with mods and what not. Do they remember what it was like to grind your ass off for your first cruiser and how cool it felt to get into it? Do they remember what it felt like to lose that cruiser your first time and the realization of what you had to do again to get another one?

I think once toons are "older" and more well established and able to absorb losses it is easy to forget that for many losing so much as a frig can be a big deal not to mention a cruiser or battleship. Or what it is like to venture into low sec/no sec the first time or deal with a gatecamp or try to grind some agent for whatever or think about trying to start a profitable production line and so on.

Note this is NOT a nerf anything thread. No nerf PvP. No nerf PvE. No nerf anything. It is just what I have seen in the Dev Blogs and from players' posts what feels like a focus that does not include the whole of EVE. "Fix bubbles." "Fix POS warfare." "Fix Titans." "Fix Invention." "Fix blobs." (And so on.) These things and others may well need addressing but where is the average schmo in all this? You know....the other 100,000 EVE accounts?



P.S. If the Devs do play new toons no fair twinking them.

EDIT: Punctuation tweaks

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:03:00 - [2]
 

This is actually a pretty good question.

NeverL
Enterprise Estonia
Session Changes
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:08:00 - [3]
 

umm its quite hard to forget everything and start as a noob.
i somehow dont get that feeling of "OMGOMGOMG what should i do" any more.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:08:00 - [4]
 

If they operate like i've grown to know in the gaming industry, they'll play by the same rules as the rest of the lot.

In other words, they probably have LESS time and therefor LESS POS's and iskies and techy II's then the people who have played since beta with grindhat on Laughing

But since EVE has no real point in "starting a new char", except for a completely alt account or a market scout(to name a few things), i doubt they start over too easily in their spare time.

The quality assurance(not bloody Q&ALaughing) probably do though.

Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:31:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: NeverL
umm its quite hard to forget everything and start as a noob.
i somehow dont get that feeling of "OMGOMGOMG what should i do" any more.


True. They could never regain that utterly lost, "What now?", feeling a truly new player would have.

But they could re-experience what it takes to start fresh and feel what it takes to grind up a new toon and all that entails (assuming they don't use their mains to twink the new toon).

You see it all the time on the boards where someone new complains they just got owned (be it while mining or suicide ganked or scammed on a Contract or whatever) and most replies are along the lines of "Live and learn". That is fair enough to an extent but I think many here forget what that loss really can mean to some people.

Add to that the sense of what it takes to "break in" to the game to do whatever and compete with the big girls and boys. Be that PvP or production or trading or what have you. Certainly with the experience of a long time player under your belt helping you along re-experiencing the issues of getting from start to whatever goal would be instructive for a Developer...and indeed many old time players as well but I doubt paying players would want to be arsed with that again.

It did occur to me after writing the OP that asking the Devs to spend their free time (i.e. time for their own enjoyment) to re-roll a new toon and start over is a bit much and makes it more like work. But then I think that it would be useful in making the game better as well. I dunno...

Tharim
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:35:00 - [6]
 

Think they do remember how it was tbh. In 2003 it took you easy 14 days to get your first million. Took me 3 months to get a battleship. We started with 40k skillpoints in 2003.

You realize someone actually buildt the first hauler in the game? The first cruiser?

So yeah, they probably remember, and probably belives you got it fairly easy nowadays.


Revolution Rising
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:35:00 - [7]
 

Yeah definately the "what now?" factor is the biggest hurdle for most newbies in this game. I can easily talk about it with just about everyone and people have experienced it for anywhere from a day to six months. I actually quit eve because of the boredom in the beginning merely because of this - after 3 months of playing.

After picking wow back up and deciding "my brain really can't take this", I came back - about 3 months later.

Rev.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:38:00 - [8]
 

Ofcourse we have to remember too, that work is work.

IT's like asking someone to haul garbage on their free time to make the garbage bin area "bit nicer in the long run" Very Happy

Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:39:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sheriff Jones
But since EVE has no real point in "starting a new char", except for a completely alt account or a market scout(to name a few things), i doubt they start over too easily in their spare time.


I was more on about thinking how EVE could do with a dose of older players remembering what it was to be new and trying to find your way. No twinking your new toon with a zillion ISK. No hyper-focused ALT that can rule the markets while being challenged to fly a shuttle.

I just think we all forget some things of being new to EVE just as growing older in real life makes us forget some things of what it meant to be a child or a young teen. Keeping such things in mind (for all of us) would be better for EVE overall.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:46:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Humpalot
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
But since EVE has no real point in "starting a new char", except for a completely alt account or a market scout(to name a few things), i doubt they start over too easily in their spare time.


I was more on about thinking how EVE could do with a dose of older players remembering what it was to be new and trying to find your way. No twinking your new toon with a zillion ISK. No hyper-focused ALT that can rule the markets while being challenged to fly a shuttle.

I just think we all forget some things of being new to EVE just as growing older in real life makes us forget some things of what it meant to be a child or a young teen. Keeping such things in mind (for all of us) would be better for EVE overall.


Yes, but that would require the removal of all knowledge concerning known cheats, pewpew gankers, suicide fleets and whatnot. Kinda asking for a pot of gold there Very Happy

Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:46:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Humpalot on 28/03/2007 06:47:00
Originally by: Tharim
Think they do remember how it was tbh. In 2003 it took you easy 14 days to get your first million. Took me 3 months to get a battleship. We started with 40k skillpoints in 2003.

You realize someone actually buildt the first hauler in the game? The first cruiser?

So yeah, they probably remember, and probably belives you got it fairly easy nowadays.




I was one of those. I remember only having T1 mining lasers (T2 didn't even exist) and a cruiser trying to mine mins for a battleship. Took flipping forever. A mate of mine did the same and lost his battleship about 20 minutes after getting it (he was protecting a friend of his mining who was not in our corp...NPCs showed and feeling good about his new Tempest he shot torps at them...he was a long ways off and by the time the torps arrived the NPCs were on top of the miner and splash damage from the torps hit the miner...bye bye Tempest and this was before insurance).

Things are a LOT easier today in many ways but more difficult in others. Back then the population was a LOT lower. 0.0 was pretty accessible to all. Low sec was not so bad at all. Suicide gankers were rare. Empire wars unheard of.

Not calling it better or worse but certainly different.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:48:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 28/03/2007 06:51:40
Quote:
Do the Devs ever play as newbies?


Like if their playing character is outted as a dev?

It's an interesting question, and I hope that most of them have the noobie experience in the forefront of their minds. In a way though, I don't think the answer to your specific question matters so much. Even a veteran starting completely from scratch is going to have a completely different perspective from the true rookie that you're talking about. And then take that difference and multiply it by a hundred since you're talking about not just any vet, but somebody responsible for creating the game.

Fortunately though, as human beings we have the ability to remember, to imagine, and empathize, without having to experience or relive everything over and over. I think that somebody who is great at game design is going to be even better at this than most of the rest of us.

So the real question for me is, Are they good at understanding and addressing the challenges of being new to this game? Overall, I think they are.


Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.28 07:19:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Humpalot on 28/03/2007 08:06:20
Edited by: Humpalot on 28/03/2007 07:16:11
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Like if their playing character is outted as a dev?


Nope...not outted at all. I am not on about any of that. Just pick up a new toon to re-experience th game from that perspective.

Quote:
It's an interesting question, and I hope that most of them have the noobie experience in the forefront of their minds.


I am not so sure. I mean I believe it is something they consider but they are human at the end of the day. What have they fixed lately? Logoffski. Freighter drops. Missions got harder (permajam FTW). Moving missions to low sec (this one is planned). Why no fix for static plexes and farmers? Moving missions to low sec is fine but why no fix to allow players to have a decent chance at defending themsleves?

I am not arguing against fixes like logoffski or freighter drops. I think logoffski was hugely lame and have never done it and sucked up ship losses rather than do it myself. Freighter drops seems fair....they should drop loot really. But there is no decent mechanism for escorting freighters. And personally I would love to venture back into low sec and go for juicy ore to mine or play around with new L5+ missions but I lack the tools to make it a reasonable venture. Again I am NOT asking to nerf pirates or asking for total safety...indeed I wouldn't mind to mix it up a bit but level the playing field.

I can see in the above I have drifted pretty far from "newbies" into freighters and such. But the Dev decisons on these things indicate a mindset among the Devs. People who I expect have well established characters and access to solid corps/alliances who can deal with such things by virtue of all that. Thing is most people in EVE do not have access to huge corps and well coordinated Alliances. What may seem not a big deal for them to deal with IS a big deal for many, many other players.

Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.03.28 07:37:00 - [14]
 

as a newb i am faced with the 'what the hell do i do' thing, I see loads of players floating about in battleships, i worked out i could train up to a battleship in like one week, but obviously I wouldn't be able to fly one with any degree of competence for a year. oh, and afford one/fit it out? ha, no way.

So I've decided to specialise in electronic warfare & scouting, it sounds like fun, and within a few months I'll have high skills in my chosen field, be able to pilot cov-ops and be able to mess with ships much larger than myself, whilst my gang mates do the raw DPS.

I suppose my ultimate aim in eve is to fly a force/combat recon ship. I had a look with eve-mon and such a ship is a very, very long way off :D

One thing i find that even as a new player, frig loses are just a slight inconvenience, with insurance even the most expensive frig only cost's 80k or so to replace, and the fitting should never be more than 100k, I found it makes no sense to fit good things to a newb ship, as their bonuses are lost on your skills.


Den enjen
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2007.03.28 07:48:00 - [15]
 

I'm a newbie too.

In the begining i hade the "what now feeling" too.
What training do i have o do now and should i mine, do agent missions or go to the dark side.
During my 14 trail i joined a corp, because i would switch to an paying account.
They help me out alot, and also EVEmon lets me know what skills i need to train in order to fly a ship i like.

So now i'm focusing on mining in order to make isk, so i can buy an BC.
Sometimes i will do agent missions, just to get to level 2 agents.



Vegetto Ichikai
Caldari
Ministry of Destruction
SCUM.
Posted - 2007.03.28 08:16:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tharim
Think they do remember how it was tbh. In 2003 it took you easy 14 days to get your first million. Took me 3 months to get a battleship. We started with 40k skillpoints in 2003.

You realize someone actually buildt the first hauler in the game? The first cruiser?

So yeah, they probably remember, and probably belives you got it fairly easy nowadays.




It probably takes most people 3 months to acquire the skills and cash for a BS, well those with lives and aren't brainless grind-monkies.

I think i started with 80k SP and tbfh, the 5.5 mil SP i have now a year later is all i need, i can fly all the ships i want, all the T2 weapons i want and fit what i want. Wtf people do with 30 mil SP i have no idea, lvl 5 skills i guess.

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2007.03.28 08:38:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
Do the Devs ever play as newbies?


I'm probably misreading you, but I think it's safe to say that the devs play as nothing else but complete noobs.

diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
Posted - 2007.03.28 08:57:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: diabolic clone on 26/05/2007 17:44:10
everyone is a newb to someone else

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2007.03.28 09:36:00 - [19]
 

Stop calling them TOONs, it's Avatars.

GAWD!

Karmic
Caldari
Dark Knights of Deneb
Posted - 2007.03.28 09:53:00 - [20]
 

In lighty and trax's case thou they should be called chavatars Razz

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2007.03.28 10:21:00 - [21]
 

Static would be an Avatart <3

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2007.03.28 10:59:00 - [22]
 

I'm sure they've gotten the new people starting playing EVE, hopefully with no help at all and someone there with a notepad to catch up on the hurdles. New people would be those White Wolf or what's their faces?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.03.28 11:11:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tharim
Think they do remember how it was tbh. In 2003 it took you easy 14 days to get your first million. Took me 3 months to get a battleship. We started with 40k skillpoints in 2003.

You realize someone actually buildt the first hauler in the game? The first cruiser?

So yeah, they probably remember, and probably belives you got it fairly easy nowadays.




I started with 60k SP in 2006, come to that. I still consider myself a n00b... just a n00b with lots of ships.

James Potkukelkka
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.03.28 11:24:00 - [24]
 

I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is no.

Being new in EVE is all about learning. You learn why not fit a shield booster, armor repairer, AND hull repairer on at same time, for example. You learn what named modules are good and worthy, what aren't. You learn not to pick up stuff from cans in empire. You learn to avoid different dangers. And so on and so forth.

I don't think you can unlearn that, and get back being a really new character, and as such, experience EVE from beginning again.

Rudina
Gallente
The Pit Crew
Posted - 2007.03.28 11:46:00 - [25]
 

I have had some experience with this as I recently (5 months ago) stopped my old account and started a new character. There was no transfer of isks & stuff as I canceled the acc and months later started this one. Even then it was difficult, popping out big momma station into cold space with a n3wb ship and 5000isk. Because of my previous Eve playing I did know a lot of things which somewhat made it easier. Yet it is still not easy to mine scordite while waiting for learning skills. Nevermind that every isk goes to skillbooks. I do remember the pride after a week when buying the Maulus and starting to pwn 0.5 rats.

The first month in this game is no fun. It is a period of grinding for isk and skills. It takes a while to figure WTH. Maybe this is why I have such a big problem with noob griefers - the ones that parks in the baby systems and catch noobs with all kinds of tricks to pod them.

I have personally lost 3 friends that I have introduced to this game within the first 3 months due to the difficult startup and the noob griefers.

Maybe some of the better writers amongst us should write a "Noob Startup Manual" that any willing new signup should get to read. Make the advanced knowledge older(ingame) players have more accessible to newer players, give them a bit of guidance to get a decent start to the game. Maybe Eve-Uni could be advertised a bit more to the new players. They do a good job and their players seems to last beyond 6 months.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.03.28 16:24:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Rudina
I have had some experience with this as I recently (5 months ago) stopped my old account and started a new character. There was no transfer of isks & stuff as I canceled the acc and months later started this one. Even then it was difficult, popping out big momma station into cold space with a n3wb ship and 5000isk. Because of my previous Eve playing I did know a lot of things which somewhat made it easier. Yet it is still not easy to mine scordite while waiting for learning skills. Nevermind that every isk goes to skillbooks. I do remember the pride after a week when buying the Maulus and starting to pwn 0.5 rats.

The first month in this game is no fun. It is a period of grinding for isk and skills. It takes a while to figure WTH.


That's interesting, but I wonder if you might be partly misremembering. See for me, my first few months were a blast. I had a terrific time, and it was before the last big rookie SP boost.

But if I think about starting completely over again--that sounds terrible. Low level skills, learning skill grind, no isk, inability to use and fit modules, limited ability to fight and trade. So even though I had a great time with this at the time, I'd hate to repeat it because I'd know what I was missing and I wouldn't have the new knowledge and experiences to absorb.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2007.03.28 16:32:00 - [27]
 

Experienced players can never experience the game as new players again even on a new character, there is no way the people actually developing it can.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.03.28 16:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Humpalot
Edited by: Humpalot on 28/03/2007 08:06:20
Edited by: Humpalot on 28/03/2007 07:16:11
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Like if their playing character is outted as a dev?


Nope...not outted at all. I am not on about any of that. Just pick up a new toon to re-experience th game from that perspective.


That was just a wry joke. :)

Quote:
It's an interesting question, and I hope that most of them have the noobie experience in the forefront of their minds.


Quote:
I am not so sure. I mean I believe it is something they consider but they are human at the end of the day. What have they fixed lately? Logoffski. Freighter drops. Missions got harder (permajam FTW). Moving missions to low sec (this one is planned). Why no fix for static plexes and farmers? Moving missions to low sec is fine but why no fix to allow players to have a decent chance at defending themsleves?



You have a point, but what about

- Changes to character creation and at least one dev devoted to this full time
- Starting SP boost
- Easier requirements on learning skills (and maybe others, I'm not sure)
- Salvage

And a HUGE one for new players

- Warp to zero.

I feel like there are more I'm forgetting, but that's a lot right there.

CCP kieron

Posted - 2007.03.28 18:12:00 - [29]
 

Yes, the Devs do play with brand new characters from time to time, we have to do so in order to improve the new player experience and help with retention. Playing only the high-end content would not help out in those areas.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2007.03.28 18:25:00 - [30]
 

I started a new character a while ago, just before the new char creation process came out in fact, so i missed out on that lovelyness :)

But yeah, we do create new chars regulary.



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