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Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.27 12:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Major Stallion on 27/03/2007 12:49:23
I do feel that its a bit stupid that you can cloak at will and sit in a system all day without being found or without risk of engaging the enemy.

There needs to be something implemented to allow for the finding of cloakers with scan probes.

One way to level out the advantages gained by cloaking should be to require fuel (in the form of some sort of ice product, probably liquid ozone). Cloakers can sit in a system indefinetly without a single fear.

The argument that still exists is "what about the T2 cloaking devices" (because they allow warping without uncloaking). Why not introduce a probe that can scan specifically for cloaked signal emissions? The fact that a cloaked player will almost never be found is silly. Eve is about risk vs. reward. The cloaker sitting in a system is a very low risk with an INCREDIBLY high reward (low risk: not getting found, high reward: valuable intelligence on fleet movements during war time)

Maybe my idea isnt the RIGHT way to fix cloaking, so if you have ideas or feedback, post it here. Try and be as constructive as possible, flaming only makes you look immature.


Angelus Xenotov
Posted - 2007.03.27 13:37:00 - [2]
 

Haha. 'Risk Verses Reward' on cloakers.

Here you go.

Risk: Going out in a ship worth 100 million that has double-ply toliet tissue as armor.

Risk: A gatecamp with atleast 1 skilled person will decloak you an splatter you.

Risk: Getting decloaked by anything.

Reward: Intelligence (No combat ability, just looking).

Decloak probes are not the answer, if they include decloak probes they'd better damnwell boost Cloaker ships 400% otherwise an entire class of ship are gunna go bye bye.

Aduna
Empire Market Corporation
Eve Trade Union
Posted - 2007.03.27 14:25:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Aduna on 27/03/2007 14:21:54
no.

and to explain: cloaks do currently enable someone to sit in a system forever, true. but cloaks also gain the advantage of being able (on a covert ops) to be able to warp while cloaked and thus make the ultimate scout. this is a VERY risky position to do and is invaluable for fleet ops intel. to enable the ability to scan out a cloaked ship would thus defeat the whole purpose of having a cloak, and also a covert ops ship in the first place.

sure, you'll always have some people that will sit in a system, cloaked 23/7 just to annoy someone, but that's part of the game and not a technical exploit, or someone abusing a system/module for purposes that were not intended. and no, i'm not a covert ops pilot nor a cloak user.

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.03.27 14:26:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Trovax on 27/03/2007 14:26:23
Edited by: Trovax on 27/03/2007 14:24:31
I fly covert ops for my corp when required. Done so for 1 and half years almost. Heres what i think.....

Advantage :

A DEGREE (and nothing more) of a tactical advantage, we get to see the ships you are flying.

Disadvantages :

-If we uncloak to scan to see what you got fitted.....pop!!

-If we jump to/through a camped gate (with or without bubble).......pop! unless you can navigate around the multitude of ships at the camp, which know your there and tend to all MWD towards the tell tale white box

-If you uncloak to assist you gang mate (be it sensor boosting or tackling).....pop!

-You cant make isk while cloaked

-you cant mine in a Covops vessel while cloaked

-you cant rat in a covops vessel cloaked, unless in high sec (uncloaked).

-you cant fit anything bigger than light missiles to a covops, which do sod all dmg anyways

-the covert ops cloak is 60 - 90 mil a piece, plus days of training

I think for all the disadvantages, and the training time, the fact that i can sit in a belt or above a gate without you knowing is a pretty fair deal. Dont you?

P.S. Would this post have anything to do with the fact that yesterday (26th march) your gang was floating around in P3 and got WTFPWNBBQ'd by G_Club who had a buzzard scoutin your 'behinds' and when they all jumped in you all ran for the hills (got fraps to prove it) would it?Twisted Evil

Meditril
Posted - 2007.03.27 17:10:00 - [5]
 

Simply NO!

Cloaked ships are so weak and expensive, therefore they have to keep this one small defensive bonus. Otherwise they are totally useless.

The easiest solution to your problem is to remove cloaked ships from local. If you do not know it is there, you will not feel the pain of wanting to kill something, which you can not find.

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.03.27 20:50:00 - [6]
 

Just messin dude. Is a game after all. Rolling Eyes

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:26:00 - [7]
 

This should have nothing to do with cov ops and everything to do with force recons fitting cov ops cloaks, which is where the real problem lies - there is just no practical defense against them AFK'ing all day, and if they're not at the controls you can't even bait them out.

Tira Grey
Posted - 2007.03.28 08:45:00 - [8]
 

How about a probe that is very slow forcing cloakers to move once in a while and present the danger in going afk in a cloak ship.
This probe should not be as presice as normal probes, but with every slow scan get closer to a non moving cloaked ship.Twisted Evil

It also gives the guys who is scanning for the cloaked ship to locate its wereabouts with a margin of error ofcause...but giving the annoying afk cloakers in system 24/7 a enemy to fear. Twisted Evil

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.03.28 11:07:00 - [9]
 

K, ive thought about this for a bit, what if there was a module that required say astormetrics or somthing that allowed certain ships to act as counter surveillance ships. As you know when you cloak you become a 'See thru' object. Now what if for those that have trained the relvant skills and fitted the required module, cloaked vessels appeared as a faint semi transparent red glow. With each lvl of skill trained increases the sensor strength of the module which starts of at a certain strength and increases as the skill lvls are trained. The stronger the Couter surveillance device the further it can scan, starting at say 25km increasing by x1.5 per level.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.28 12:16:00 - [10]
 

A slow probe is generally my preferred solution. If it took basically an hour to probe down a cloaked ship, then AFK cloakers would be gone overnight.

MrTriggerHappy
Caldari
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.28 15:35:00 - [11]
 

The whole point of recons/coverts is to be able to sit in a system undetected, if there is anyway to change this it would fundamentally ruin the ship class. As someone else said above.. our double play tissue paper armour wouldnt last and the ship class would be deemed pointless.

VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:04:00 - [12]
 

Cloaks are pre-nerfed. That is all. Nothing else needed.

VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:07:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: VJ Maverick on 28/03/2007 21:06:37
Originally by: Major Stallion
Edited by: Major Stallion on 27/03/2007 12:49:23
I do feel that its a bit stupid that you can cloak at will and sit in a system all day without being found or without risk of engaging the enemy.



I feel that its a bit stupid for a Hurricane to kill my Ibis. But hey, that's exactly what the Hurricane was designed to do - break stuff. Guess what the CovOps was designed to do.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2007.03.29 00:52:00 - [14]
 


James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:27:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: MrTriggerHappy
The whole point of recons/coverts is to be able to sit in a system undetected, if there is anyway to change this it would fundamentally ruin the ship class. As someone else said above.. our double play tissue paper armour wouldnt last and the ship class would be deemed pointless.

Sit yes. With a pilot there. Not sit there while the pilot goes out to tea for 5 hours and enjoys the smug knowledge that when he comes back there'll be some guy out mining he can gank before doing it again.

And there's no possible way to force him to leave and no possible way to defend every single op - nor it be necessary if you own the system and can repel active intruders.

I've no problem with active recons and cov ops in a system messing things up. But it's ******ed that you get to cloak and not even be at the controls of your ship and achieve exactly the same effect - if you go AFK, then someone with a slow probe should eventually get you. The ships should be forced to log off if they want to maintain a presence.

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:36:00 - [16]
 

if you want to nerf cloaks then what do they get in return?

VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
Posted - 2007.03.29 04:41:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: MrTriggerHappy
The whole point of recons/coverts is to be able to sit in a system undetected, if there is anyway to change this it would fundamentally ruin the ship class. As someone else said above.. our double play tissue paper armour wouldnt last and the ship class would be deemed pointless.

Sit yes. With a pilot there. Not sit there while the pilot goes out to tea for 5 hours and enjoys the smug knowledge that when he comes back there'll be some guy out mining he can gank before doing it again.

And there's no possible way to force him to leave and no possible way to defend every single op - nor it be necessary if you own the system and can repel active intruders.

I've no problem with active recons and cov ops in a system messing things up. But it's ******ed that you get to cloak and not even be at the controls of your ship and achieve exactly the same effect - if you go AFK, then someone with a slow probe should eventually get you. The ships should be forced to log off if they want to maintain a presence.


This argument is the backbone of every cloak-nerf crusade - namely, the claim that "Oh, I can see him in Local. I know he's there so I have an inalienable right to be able to find him!" Wrong! Your claim to this "entitlement" is based on an already existing NERF to cloaks - namely, the fact that if things were true to their intent, you wouldn't even be able to see them in Local. But you can. So now you want more. And then you'll want more. And then some more again. And eventually, the cloak ship will become obsolete and you'll find something else to whine about.

So what I propose is this: if cloaked ships can be removed from local, I would agree to being able to somehow find them. Without it, what you are asking for is the ability to shoot fish in a barrel. Very fragile and very expensive fish. You know he's in your system. You're just going to hound him till he leaves or or is destroyed. Avoiding that kind of hassle is exactly what a COvOps ship was intended to do in the first place.

William Hamilton
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2007.03.29 06:07:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: William Hamilton on 29/03/2007 06:05:08
Cloaks only need this slight nerf.


1) make clockers visible on scan

2) make activating a cloak GREATLY reduce sig radius (ex: 10% for proto-cloak, 5% for improved, 1% for cov-ops)


You'd still be mostly invisible, and would only be found if you were totaly AFK and not checking scanner (that still works when cloaked right, I havent tried it)


And conversely, I'd like the ability to use ship and cargo scanners somehow when cloaked, but that's another story...

Tulisin Dragonflame
Posted - 2007.03.29 06:31:00 - [19]
 

There should be a structure that has the ability to find cloaked people, but it'd require sovereignty. The idea is that if you basically have a "home" system that your alliance owns, it should be much harder to infiltrate than unguarded_system_01. The structure would have to be pretty expensive, and certainly not foolproof, but enough to discourage all but the craftiest of spies peeking into the heart of enemy operations.

MrTriggerHappy
Caldari
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.29 07:24:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: MrTriggerHappy
The whole point of recons/coverts is to be able to sit in a system undetected, if there is anyway to change this it would fundamentally ruin the ship class. As someone else said above.. our double play tissue paper armour wouldnt last and the ship class would be deemed pointless.

Sit yes. With a pilot there. Not sit there while the pilot goes out to tea for 5 hours and enjoys the smug knowledge that when he comes back there'll be some guy out mining he can gank before doing it again.



So your telling me you never get the need to expel some bodily fluid or grab a beer on occassion (if your of legal drinking age)

Moonwarrior
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:24:00 - [21]
 

How about making linking cloaks to movement, thus if a pilot goes afk his ship will decloak after 10 mins, forcing cloakers to be active players.

Angelus Xenotov
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: VJ Maverick

This argument is the backbone of every cloak-nerf crusade - namely, the claim that "Oh, I can see him in Local. I know he's there so I have an inalienable right to be able to find him!" Wrong! Your claim to this "entitlement" is based on an already existing NERF to cloaks - namely, the fact that if things were true to their intent, you wouldn't even be able to see them in Local. But you can. So now you want more. And then you'll want more. And then some more again. And eventually, the cloak ship will become obsolete and you'll find something else to whine about.

So what I propose is this: if cloaked ships can be removed from local, I would agree to being able to somehow find them. Without it, what you are asking for is the ability to shoot fish in a barrel. Very fragile and very expensive fish. You know he's in your system. You're just going to hound him till he leaves or or is destroyed. Avoiding that kind of hassle is exactly what a COvOps ship was intended to do in the first place.


Everyone else go home, this is the perfect answer to every 'omfg find cloakers!' thread.

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:53:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Sit yes. With a pilot there. Not sit there while the pilot goes out to tea for 5 hours and enjoys the smug knowledge that when he comes back there'll be some guy out mining he can gank before doing it again.

And there's no possible way to force him to leave and no possible way to defend every single op - nor it be necessary if you own the system and can repel active intruders.

I've no problem with active recons and cov ops in a system messing things up. But it's ******ed that you get to cloak and not even be at the controls of your ship and achieve exactly the same effect - if you go AFK, then someone with a slow probe should eventually get you. The ships should be forced to log off if they want to maintain a presence.



Theres absolutly nothing stopping anyone else fitting a cloak to any other ship, which allows them to do exactly the same thing. A solo covertops ship is harldy a threat to anyone, unless its maybe one of the force recon ships, accompanied by several other ships. Even so, if your in high sec then you havent got to worry, cos they cant get you anyway. If your in low sec, mining for example, then you should be accompanied by some of your corpies. If not, then its your own ******ed fault if you get WTFBBQPWN'd. The fact that you think covert ops ships should be scannable, and the rant about AFK'ness just means one thing. You want to be able to find an easy target with the 80mil Cloak devices on cos like most peeps who complain and moan (with exceptions), want things as easy as possible so they dont actually have to work hard and dont want to have to use their noodle to come up with a way of coutering such problems to get somewhere in the game. Instead just rantin on the forums in the hope that CCP will think 'Hmmmm maybe we should do somthing', and then you wont have to do anything, then you can go back to mindless gunfights whilst focusing your other brain cell on your favorite episode of the teletubbies!!. Some parts of this game actually require some level intelect and thought, which id say is what attracts 99% of the players. Strategy, tactics, teamwork. Stick to your gunfights, and let CCP do the maths.

Draekas Darkwater
Posted - 2007.04.02 21:10:00 - [24]
 

Not sure that I really support this, but you could also introduce a new high slot item that required charges to fire off. It would act kind of like a EMP burst/depth charge device, that wouldn't do any damage (or agro anything it hit). Getting hit by it would simply decloak you briefly, until you can recloak again. So in theory you could sweep areas for cloaked ships, but not for free.

Have maybe a 2-5k radius on them. Certainly not large enough to cover an entire gate for ships jumping in. Balanced in testing of course.

Cain Bloodlust
Posted - 2007.04.02 22:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Draekas Darkwater
Not sure that I really support this, but you could also introduce a new high slot item that required charges to fire off. It would act kind of like a EMP burst/depth charge device, that wouldn't do any damage (or agro anything it hit). Getting hit by it would simply decloak you briefly, until you can recloak again. So in theory you could sweep areas for cloaked ships, but not for free.

Have maybe a 2-5k radius on them. Certainly not large enough to cover an entire gate for ships jumping in. Balanced in testing of course.


AFAIK smartbombs decloak ships.

Icome4u
Caldari
28 Meows Later
Infinitas Consortium
Posted - 2007.04.03 01:14:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Cain Bloodlust
Originally by: Draekas Darkwater
Not sure that I really support this, but you could also introduce a new high slot item that required charges to fire off. It would act kind of like a EMP burst/depth charge device, that wouldn't do any damage (or agro anything it hit). Getting hit by it would simply decloak you briefly, until you can recloak again. So in theory you could sweep areas for cloaked ships, but not for free.

Have maybe a 2-5k radius on them. Certainly not large enough to cover an entire gate for ships jumping in. Balanced in testing of course.


AFAIK smartbombs decloak ships.


Yupp i lost my Covert Ops to a MS smartbombing me with one of those very expensive officer large smartbombs. Took 2 hits i think or maybe 3 to pop me... lol

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.04.03 02:54:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: James Duar on 03/04/2007 02:50:35
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: MrTriggerHappy
The whole point of recons/coverts is to be able to sit in a system undetected, if there is anyway to change this it would fundamentally ruin the ship class. As someone else said above.. our double play tissue paper armour wouldnt last and the ship class would be deemed pointless.

Sit yes. With a pilot there. Not sit there while the pilot goes out to tea for 5 hours and enjoys the smug knowledge that when he comes back there'll be some guy out mining he can gank before doing it again.

And there's no possible way to force him to leave and no possible way to defend every single op - nor it be necessary if you own the system and can repel active intruders.

I've no problem with active recons and cov ops in a system messing things up. But it's ******ed that you get to cloak and not even be at the controls of your ship and achieve exactly the same effect - if you go AFK, then someone with a slow probe should eventually get you. The ships should be forced to log off if they want to maintain a presence.


This argument is the backbone of every cloak-nerf crusade - namely, the claim that "Oh, I can see him in Local. I know he's there so I have an inalienable right to be able to find him!" Wrong! Your claim to this "entitlement" is based on an already existing NERF to cloaks - namely, the fact that if things were true to their intent, you wouldn't even be able to see them in Local. But you can. So now you want more. And then you'll want more. And then some more again. And eventually, the cloak ship will become obsolete and you'll find something else to whine about.

Ok, here's the problem: I have sovereignty in a system. I can repel people attacking my system directly. But for some reason there is absolutely no way I can ever force a ship with a cloak to leave or log off. Which means, I can never be sure my system is secure so I can exploit it's resources.

Recon ships are what make this a problem. Recons fit the covert ops cloak, allowing them to approach any ship in an asteroid belt cloaked and ONLY decloak when they want to attack. They can then recloak and warp away when any response gang comes to get them - there is no way to make them present a target.

Now, this would be reasonable if they couldn't exploit this to just sit AFK most of the day and then strike at random. But they can. They don't have to move ever, but they make ensuring the security of my system impossible because there is no way to be sure they are AFK and no way to know when they've stopped doing this.

This unreasonable. Some mechanism should be added to force these ships to either have a pilot at the helm, or be logged off - thus allowing me to know my system is secure. If you want to sit in a system all day and prevent people from operating in it, then you should have to be at your ship's controls.

And no, "just bring security" is not an answer to protecting a mining operation when in the time it takes a barge to warp a ship could warp in at range, pop it, and warp off - thus compounding the "no way to know they're not AFK" problem.

Originally by: VJ Maverick
So what I propose is this: if cloaked ships can be removed from local, I would agree to being able to somehow find them. Without it, what you are asking for is the ability to shoot fish in a barrel. Very fragile and very expensive fish. You know he's in your system. You're just going to hound him till he leaves or or is destroyed. Avoiding that kind of hassle is exactly what a COvOps ship was intended to do in the first place.

No, this conversation has nothing to do with Covert Ops ships and everything to do with Force Recons. The point of the slow probe, or some gradual detection mechanism is to prevent such ships simply AFK'ing all day and denying the ability to secure a system despite active attempts to do so.

Draekas Darkwater
Posted - 2007.04.03 07:05:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Cain Bloodlust
Originally by: Draekas Darkwater
Not sure that I really support this, but you could also introduce a new high slot item that required charges to fire off. It would act kind of like a EMP burst/depth charge device, that wouldn't do any damage (or agro anything it hit). Getting hit by it would simply decloak you briefly, until you can recloak again. So in theory you could sweep areas for cloaked ships, but not for free.

Have maybe a 2-5k radius on them. Certainly not large enough to cover an entire gate for ships jumping in. Balanced in testing of course.


AFAIK smartbombs decloak ships.


Yeah, but they also agro flag you to everything else you hit in range. This thing would simply uncloak anything in the radius, but wouldn't agro anything, like snowballs.

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.04.05 16:45:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Trovax on 05/04/2007 16:41:45
Originally by: Draekas Darkwater

Yeah, but they also agro flag you to everything else you hit in range. This thing would simply uncloak anything in the radius, but wouldn't agro anything, like snowballs.


Dunno about anyone else but i would take being forcibly uncloaked as an act of aggression anyways Confused



Zuro
Rapid Dominance
Posted - 2007.04.05 18:20:00 - [30]
 

Those of you who disagree with this must be covert pilots or something. Right now I am in my home system and in it are 3-4 cloaked recons. I dont know about you but being able to sit in a system all day, go afk, watch some tv, take a shower, then come back is a bit wrong. The pilots in system sit there all day with cloaked recons in system unable to mine or rat because we don't know if they are afk or not. covert ops, fine they can stay cloaked without fuel but recons id like to see something happen with them in regards to being able to cloak non stop in an enemy system all day and completely stop any form of isk making (ratting, logistics, mining).

discuss :)ughughugh


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