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Posted - 2009.01.12 01:37:00 - [241]

What would you suggest for someone who aren't 100% what he'll do in the end, but for starters it would be combat oriented:

- Missions
- Escorts (protect miners & transporters from pirates etc.)
- Helping others with missions (i would believe it's the characters who get killing missions and got heavy crafting/mining/trading skills)

I'm not that much in to PvP (not at least yet), i'm mainly a PvE player, but for example escorting would require some PvP to be done. And the idea of the Electronic Warfare seem interesting also (in terms of escorting at least) - so i'm not 100% sure which kind of ship i would/should be aiming for.

I do not have a rich main with millions of money to buy implants and stuff, but by looking at the prices in market a set of +1's or +2's should be possible.

And last but not least, there is a TINY change that after months/years or so and if i still play this game, i might want to do some fleet commanding (leadership skills to give your fleet bonuses?. But it really is that, a TINY change and not anytime soon.

Siru Vilu
Posted - 2009.01.12 14:14:00 - [242]

Edited by: Siru Vilu on 12/01/2009 14:49:53
Minmatar, Sebiestor, Rebels / +2 int, +3 mem / Engineer
C6, I9, M9, P8, W7

Would that slow down some of the areas in skills alot compared to 9's/3 achura? Main reason for the above setup would be the fact that you can get mining barge lvl 3 in less than 5 days, but would have lots of mining and support skills to be trained, so i'm not sure if it's worth of it(?)

Though i think that's one of the most balanced "low" charisma attribues after Caldari. The character would ofcourse be my main.

Also, for combat character i was thinking Achura Monk Engineer with +3P +2W, this would give me nice set of support skills (mainly for shield tanking) and high P/W to learn the weapon skills fast. However, i think it would gimp my int and mem releated skill speed, but would be it noticable and how fast?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.12 16:01:00 - [243]

Edited by: Akita T on 12/01/2009 16:18:04

Ok, let's put things into perspective... eventually, you will be getting at least a set of +3s and 4/4 learnings (a lot of people actually end up with +5s and 5/4 learnings).
These calculations are very, very rough ones to give you an idea of just how important (or unimportant) a single point difference in base attributes from average is.

Let's round up the "average" attribute to 8 (instead of 7.8), so your average long-term effective attribute value is somewhere in between 20.5 and 24.2. Let's say about 22 so we don't calculate too many variants.
So, if you reduce one of your base attributes below the average of 8 with one point to 7, and want to train something that has that as main attribute (while not changing the secondary one from its value), that's MERELY A ~3% drop in training speed.

So... again... 8 main 8 secondary vs 7 main 8 secondary or vs 9 main 8 secondary... in the long run, that's just ~3% difference in training speed.
Yeah, sure, over 3 years, that comes out as roughly one month... but on the scale of each individual skill trained, you barely notice it.

I could keep dishing out individually-tailored recommendations, but really, I wouldn't be saying much that hasn't already been said, and a significant part of the character creation process is a matter of taste rather than effectiveness (who cares about a month plus or minus if you get to that certain point in your skillplan 3 years later only, seriously?)
And with it being a matter of taste, giving recommendations would be the same as forcing my taste on you.

As for the initial table, that was created EXACTLY for people who have no idea what they will want to do in this game... call it a "hedge fund" character creation table Wink
Yes, it's not the best order for any specific task, it's the very approximate order of best on average across all possible tasks Laughing

Well... that being said... still Wink
@Vikura : missions and helping others with missions are the only realistic things, escort duty is... well... not even veterans bother so much with escort duty (instead, they bother a lot with scouting, and that can be done in a shuttle too).
The character I recommended and explanations I gave to Kiluna starting with this post over here would apply to you too mostly.

Siru Vilu
Posted - 2009.01.12 17:58:00 - [244]

Edited by: Siru Vilu on 12/01/2009 18:17:42
Edited by: Siru Vilu on 12/01/2009 18:00:07
Nice, thanks for the information!

I decided to create a character you suggested here. Used the same attribute allocation as the poster you replied to.

One question about it, i wouldn't want to wait a week before being able to do missions, so i was wondering would it work if i get learnings to L2 (but leave learning to L1), then go for frig 3 to be able to use Kestrel and be able to do something else than sit in my ibis waiting for skills. Then continue with basic learning to L4 and advanced at least L1 - while doing missions with Kestrel.

Current stats with implants + learning i've done so far:
Int 17
Per 16
Wil 12
Mem 11
Char 6

edit: this is ofcourse for the combat character, mining can always wait :P
by working, i mean: would it defeat the whole purpose of starting as a engineer and going for high learning before doing anything else?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.13 00:40:00 - [245]

Getting the useful skills up to speed ASAP (those that help you make ISK) are well worth the small delay in bumping up your learnings for long-term SP gains.
I mean, what's the use of having the prerequisites for the advanced learnings and being trained to fly a cruiser if you can't afford to buy the skillbooks nor the ship, right ? Wink

The whole point is to set yourself a goal, and only train up the learnings that will make you reach that goal the fastest.
Your immediate goal is to be able to fly L1 missions, so that means at least Caldari Frigate 3 (maybe even 4), alongside Standard Missiles 3, Missile Launcher Operation 3, Rapid Launch 2, Missile Bombardment 3, Missile Projection 2 for decent firepower and range, plus whatever other skills you might need to make the ship fit (Energy Grid Upgrades 2, Engineering 3, Electronics 3, maybe some level of Weapons Upgrades too).
The easiest way to figure it all out is to use EFT and EVE-Mon : add your current character to both programs, try to make a reasonable ship fit in EFT (it won't fit yet, but try to get as close as possible in grid and CPU), see what skills at what levels you'd need to make it fit (and what skills you need to be able to use the modules you add), then plug the desired skill levels into an EVE-Mon plan... and wait for a "suggestions" hint at the bottom for those particular learning skills that would make the training shorter.

And it would be a good idea to repeat the process for L2/Caracal (you might also want to add Connections 3 to the skill mix for L2 missions, just in case) and maybe even do the same a bit later on for L3/Drake before finally embarking on rounding up all remaining skill levels.

Maestro Joe
Demon Theory
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.01.16 19:22:00 - [246]

Edited by: Maestro Joe on 16/01/2009 20:11:01
Edited by: Maestro Joe on 16/01/2009 19:22:10
new to the game, made an achura as suggested for my mission runner/combat char. I'm now starting an alt on a separate account to sit and skill. I don't need to be able to play/profit from it for a while since i have my missioneer. I just wanted to know what the preferred build would be if i don't need it to be useable for a long time, and have the money to support it, if i want it to be industry (manufacturing and/or research). I read you suggesting the minmitar for a good starting skillset, but i'm not sure if that means that they are just more viable early on, or in the 'long' term.

after looking around a bit, seems maybe caldari/achura/inventor with 14 int 9 memory, and i'm less sure about the second part but industry/manufacturing/fast production? i guess i'll start that this afternoon just to have something skillup, but will delete/change on advice.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.16 20:20:00 - [247]

IF you don't care about actually playing on your alt any time soon but want to play a long time after AND you have the cash to support it via your main, then obviously you should focus on the learning skills first.
Also, since the problems of short-term boredom and need for versatility are not such an issue, picking Achura Inventor might be a very good OR a very bad idea, depending on what exactly you want your alt to be specialized in.

So, the most important question : WHAT EXACTLY do you have planned for your alt ?
If it's invention and research coupled with T2 manufacture, then yes, your current choice is one of the best.
If however you only need it for a bit of those but your main aim is combat, then it's a pretty bad choice.

Sinthia Sin
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:02:00 - [248]

I love this thread it is very helpful.

I have a question about your theory on mining. In regards to just buying junk and refining it for the minerals. I never thought about that before and I wonder if it is viable for a manufacturer? Could I really supply all my mineral needs that way?

The reason I asked is that I started a caldari stargazer prospector for mining/manufacturing/trade. (Currently at 1.3mill sp just a month old.) I put +3 to mem and +2 to int. Please realize I made this character before reading this forum.

At char creation:
Cha 3
Int 10+2
Mem 12+4
Per 8
Will 6

(By the way - I do have a combat main on another account that could supply isk). But now it seems I am MORE interested in manufacturing and trading than mining. But I must say I do enjoy being self sufficient which is the reason I originally went with a miner. I originally thought I could have it all in one but starting to realize the stargazer prospector isnt really good for manufacturing and everything else I want to do.

So now I am thinking I could just dump this guy and start with a manufacturer skillset just for manufacturing/refining/trade and get my minerals another way (and have better starting attributes) Because it does seem I am more interested in controlling a market region through Trade by buying low and selling high, moving goods to needed areas, and manufacturing them rather than sitting in a belt mining.

So I guess my basic question would you recommend that I reroll? I don't feel my attributes are correct. Also, I have yet to download eve-mon. Which I guess should be my next step.

2nd part to my question is in regards to my main which is also barely a month old. Designed to be a combat missioner/pvp pilot. Currently outfitted in a rifter with 3xTechII autocannons. He is doing well and tearing it up.

Minmatar/Sibiesti/Tinker/Military/Special Forces - +3int +2perc

Stats at char creation:
Char 6
Int 14
Mem 6
Perc 7+2
Will 6+4

Just figured since I maybe in the business of rerolling - now is the time and do you think this guy is good to go?

Thanks - your awesome btw.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:33:00 - [249]

It depends on what exactly do you plan to manufacture, and wether you plan to move later on into T2 invention and manufacture or even T3 manufacture... and on your trading style... and where exactly do you plan to set up shop.

Now, I have 3 base charisma myself, and barely 600k SP into trade (see details), but so far it's been more than enough for trading purposes, since I always focused on a handful of items rather than dozens or hundreds of types. Sure, I might not have the lowest possible margins, but compared to the ideal situation I barely pay 0.15% extra (or even slightly less), so it's not such a big deal to me.
Others swear by huge amounts of SP into trading, with the ability to juggle hundreds of orders at the minimum possible taxes, always relying on volume and razor-thin margins to make the trades... but then again it can be extremely tiring to do so if you set up shop in a busy area, with people sometimes trying to undercut you even if the profits are minimal.

Most of the "trade efficiency" skills have memory as a secondary attribute (so it can't hurt to have that high either) with charisma main (but they work good enough at L4 too), while most "trade volume" skills have willpower primary and charisma secondary (here however, a lot of them require L5 for the higher tier, the only exception being Retail which doesn't need Trade 5). In other words, memory and wilpower are quite important too, and can easily compensate for a low charisma.

On the other hand, you have all the manufacture and research skills, where intelligence and memory are vital, and there's a lot of SP to sink in there just so you can fully access the entire spectrum of products, so having a very high int and a reasonably high mem doesn't hurt at all.

All in all, you don't really need all that much charisma, not even for trade... and the only attribute you do not care about at all is perception.
That is, unless you plan to train for transport ships or freighters, then suddendly perception matters too Laughing
So... well... yeah, it's complicated, and will depend a lot on how you decide to "evolve" it.

Luna Sin
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:03:00 - [250]

Edited by: Luna Sin on 26/01/2009 23:06:50
Edited by: Luna Sin on 26/01/2009 23:06:00
Edited by: Luna Sin on 26/01/2009 23:05:01
Thanks for the reply.

Yes I want to trade but I won't be so involved to max every trade skill out. Also I don't need the high end haulers either. I can do just as well with a frigate or badger. More important to me would be production effiency in manufacturing with trade as a "minor" concentration.

I do plan on going into T2 building and invention. The trade skills are primarily there to make life a little easier. Like the marketing skill to adjust orders many jumps away and skills to minimize brokerage fees. I won't be a min/maxer when it comes to trade skills.

Edit: Currently I am cutting my teeth in Jita buying low and reselling and manufacturing frigates. Eventually I will ship low-bought goods to outter reaches where there is a demand. I gave myself a challenge and started with 100k isk and I have turned that into 6million in 4 days just by buying low and reselling and building some frigates.

Edit: Accidentally logged this post on a different character. This is still Sinthia Sin :)

Sinthia Sin
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:15:00 - [251]

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 09/08/2008 22:56:52

Well, depends what you mean by "maxing out trading skills".
If by that you mean just Retail 4, Accounting 4 and Broker Relations 4, that's trivial regardless of path chosen, ESPECIALLY if you plan on going with ship skills afterwards.
If you mean stuff like Tycoon 4, Accounting 5, Broker Relations 5, Connections/Diplomacy 5 and a lot ofother ship/support skills, then it starts getting complicated.

I'd suggest making a clear skillplan (your goal, including trade skills AND what you consider would be acceptable ship/support skills), then entering it all into EVE-HQ to determine the best starter character combo and custom skill points.
Afterwards, get that character into EVE-MON and enter the very same skill plan, and that the "suggested" learning skills.

This way you will get the optimal path to your desired goal.
Of course, the initial best choice and learning path you should take differ depending on the exact skill levels you set as a goal... add some levels to a skill, a different initial combo might be slightly better... get some off, again, different.
ESPECIALLY if you include any L5 skills that are NOT of the same primary attribute.
For instance, you might want L5 freighter and L5 jump freighters but not Tycoon at all (happy with Retail 4 for instance), or you might only want L4 freighter, L4 JF but Tycoon 5... HUGE differences.

P.S. If you don't know how to use any of them, you could just list the skills you have in mind, with alternatives on what you would consider ok//desirable, and I will run them for you.
Also, I'd suggest getting and learning how to use those two programs anyway, they help a lot with planning.

Just read this. So I have downloaded both those programs. Ready to get this planned out.

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
Posted - 2009.02.03 01:34:00 - [252]

Edited by: Patrice Macmahon on 03/02/2009 02:39:43

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 12/01/2009 16:18:04

So, if you reduce one of your base attributes below the average of 8 with one point to 7, and want to train something that has that as main attribute (while not changing the secondary one from its value), that's MERELY A ~3% drop in training speed.

A similar statement caught my eye pretty good a few months back, so I built my Intaki baised on it. With all 8's across the board I pushed my learning stats to 5/4 with the exception of Perception, which I pushed to 5/5 to make up for the lost stat point.

The convienience of knowing all my skill require the same amount of time to train really helps in setting a personal schedule for skill flips (to prevent gaps) and completion times.

The added charisma is helping with getting the fleet boosting skills up to speed, and so far, with everyones avoidance of decent charisma stats, puts my abilities in solid demand making the investment well worth it. I train Charisma speeds at roughly 60% faster than most, and with the other stats in balance, Im not loosing out too terribly compared to those same others.

This thread (and the many many others like it) have helped to create a deficiency in the number of competent fleet boosters (for PVP OR Mining) and for that, I would like so say "Thanks."

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.02.03 17:06:00 - [253]

Isn't it extremely funny how the fastest character pick to a maxed-out-fleet-booster in the command ship of your choice (after you include all skills that would be useful for such a character, and yes, that's ALL of the leadership tree to L5, including Cybernetics 5 for any of the mindlinks) is actually an Amarr Khanid Unionist with +3cha/+2wil starting as Engineer ?
And even funnier, how a Caldari Achura Monk Engineer with +3cha/+2wil is only around 1 month behind on a roughly 2-years-total skillplan ?
Or how the worst possible choice with +3cha/+2wil is only 2 months behind ?

Well, sure, if you want your fleet commander flying a tech 1 battlecruiser that's trying as hard as it can to stay away from the fight while barely running the multitude of links you slap on it, with the aid of somebody else doing energy transfer on him and no tank whatsoever, then yeah, sure, I guess a Gallente Gallente Activist +3cha/+2wil Executive Commander will do just fine in about 9 months or so. But then again, an Achura could get there too in about 11 months.

Yes, I'm fairly certain the low base charisma recommendation most people give has EVERYTHING to do with the lack of properly skilled fleet boosters, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the fact very few people would train those skills up to the max even if they were a 15 base charisma character...

Raymon James
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.06 03:33:00 - [254]

Edited by: Raymon James on 06/02/2009 03:36:16
my recomendation has been for the longest time to take a look at what your actualy training before you go nuts with the learning skillls

if your not taking anything empathy based then why are you doing emp learning? you save maybee a half hour on the adv learning skill that use it and a few other skills that you may or may not ever bother to even look at twice!. same goes for implants, dont plug it in if your not training a skill based on it, and dont buy it if your not going to train a skill that needs it any time soon.

seriously whats worth more to you, that 10,000,000 Soc 4 chip or a fully tricked out rupture.

And before you answer that one, the fully decked out Rupture can dish out more pain to anything your shooting at than your winning personality, Even if your winning personality comes with Chains, whips, and thigh high stilleto boots.

Raymon James
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.06 03:39:00 - [255]

Edited by: Raymon James on 06/02/2009 03:39:10
Originally by: Akita T
Yes, I'm fairly certain the low base charisma recommendation most people give has EVERYTHING to do with the lack of properly skilled fleet boosters, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the fact very few people would train those skills up to the max even if they were a 15 base charisma character...

my experience is that what makes a good FC has more to do with the fully organic brains on the client side of the system, and not the "psuodo brains" in a locked chilled room in london.

Imperial Forces
Posted - 2009.02.16 05:14:00 - [256]

akita, could please have a look into this thread? thank you

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.02.16 09:45:00 - [257]

In a month, this thread will become absolete Laughing
All characters will start with 8/8/8/8/7cha and be able to min-max attributes as 15/9/5/5/5 in any attribute pair they want to every 6 months (or go as balanced as they want).

atomic comic
Posted - 2009.02.16 09:57:00 - [258]

Edited by: CSI Eve on 16/02/2009 09:57:29
yeah, i know. thats why i want to start a 900k SP alt now.

edit: its me, loaby

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.02.16 11:13:00 - [259]

You also get double training speed to 1.6 mil SP, so you're better off waiting.
Start char, respec attributes to optimal for plan, ONLY train stuff you need with appropriate learnings first.

Posted - 2009.02.17 11:51:00 - [260]

Edited by: Zaldoza on 17/02/2009 12:05:12
I was thinking of making me a Hulk miner,so i got EHQ too create a plan for one..Goal set to Exhumers lvl 3..
Now according too that the optimal path would be.
Minmatar/Sebiestor/Tinkeres/Industry/Engineer whit C.6 I.14, M.8, P.5, W.6 =31D 8h 7m std queue time....

But the longest skill is mining barge lvl 5 and thats perception/willpower,so why does it pick a path that has low on those..I know Atrogeology is also a long skill whit Int/Mem...
So whats it or i doing wrong here,because i did try making what it suggested.And it didn't hold of by a long shot,evemon told me the plan would take about double the time..ugh

Nvm..Adding mining barge lvl 5 did the trick,it now shows a more realistic path..Whit heavy on perc.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.03.14 19:39:00 - [261]

Added big blinding edit to the OP Twisted Evil
Goodbye, guide !

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